Was just talking about this with a friend after a pretty bad experience on Friday night. I'm not going to name names because this seems to be almost a universal problem.

A few years ago I lamented that there were simply too many new restaurants and bars coming on-line for the OKC labor market to absorb. Unemployment remains very low and it's not like we have hundreds and thousands of people sitting around waiting for the new places to open. I've heard from many operators that finding and keeping good people is by far their biggest challenge.

It seems we've crossed from worry into full-on critical mass. I almost always sit at the bar when I go anywhere not only for social reasons but because I am almost guaranteed decent service, as the bartenders are right in front of you the whole time.

The more recent times I've sat at a table I'd say it's about a 50/50 proposition between decent and quite poor table service. Generally people with little to no experience and who would probably not ever be hired into these positions other than warm bodies are desperately needed.

I am a very laid back person and very forgiving but bad service is just uncomfortable and can easily ruin a good time.

Without going down the 'chain' road I can say I've had great experiences at Good Egg and Hal Smith concepts. I suppose it helps greatly to have a large organization where there is a career path for the motivated.

It's a problem that seems to be getting worse and I'm wondering if others have noticed the same.

Excuse the poem, but...yes and no, depending where you go. And I WILL name names.

I believe I've mentioned it before, but the Yukon Jimmy's Egg is just flat out awful. It's not based on server mentality, it's from the top down, to the point where last time I was there they initially refused to honor a promotion sent to the Jimmy's Egg email list, because the location didn't specifically list 'Yukon'. When pressed, they said they didn't have to honor it, but they would this one time only because they recognized us as having been frequent customers in the past. If you're a member of their email club, you know it lists many locations, some out of state. I contacted them for clarification, because to me it was really obvious they intended the coupon to be honored at any location in the OKC metro area, not just within the confines of OKC itself. They confirmed this, and I suggested they add the word "metro" to the list because some locations were trying to dodge honoring the deal, which they have done. tl;dr: The Yukon Jimmy's Egg does not give a crap.

But the other day I went to the Los Vaqueros in Mustang, and everyone there seemed happy to be there. The drinks never went below half-full, the food was brought in a timely manner, and the orders were accurate.

But overall, I think I would agree that there's a decline, and I stop going to places where it's really bad. I'm not talking about brought me the wrong drink, that's minor, I'm thinking specifically of a burger place I went that tried to charge for an appetizer of bacon because I ordered a bacon burger. The server actually argued with me, and I made her go get a menu so I could show her that believe it or not, bacon was indeed listed as an ingredient in the bacon burger. I then asked if the appetizer had only two pieces of bacon, she said no. She eventually removed the overcharge but still gave an overall attitude that I was the one trying to rip her off, not the other way around. Haven't been back there, but have had similar experiences elsewhere.

We are loyal to a handful of restaurants that offer consistent food & service. Don't want to blow $100-150 on a clueless server, table next to the bathrooms, bad acoustics, cold food, empty glasses, etc.

Pete, the industry will sort itself out. Guernsey Park, West and Kaiser's are three recent examples of a closure, sale by an unsuccessful operator, and an inevitable closure.

If it doesn't fit into a routine interaction that they've had a million times, people will freak out over having to use their brains for anything.

Pete, the industry will sort itself out. Guernsey Park, West and Kaiser's are three recent examples of a closure, sale by an unsuccessful operator, and an inevitable closure.

All those places will reopen as new restaurants and there are at least 30 very large operations that will be opening this year: Uncle Julio's, Firebirds, Birra Birra, 2 Hopddodies, Burn, Hatch CC, Industry Gastropub, BWW... I could go on and on.

And of course in 2017 we had a ton of new places.

Where are the service people going to come from?

Big national chains have slipped, but the local chains and local spots I hit up are as good as ever. Never had any problems at the mule, press (or anything else in the plaza), Mary Eddy’s, Yuzo, Jones, any steakhouse, drake, republic, upper crust, etc. You can tell the market is stretched but I don’t think it’s anywhere near “crisis” levels.

Even if it is at “crisis” levels that’s ultimately a good thing. Restaurants will increases prices to pay staff more, staff gets paid more and does a better job, rising wages attract more people into the service industry, on the flip side as prices rise the pace will slow down and we’ll come to a natural equilibrium.

To make a long post short, trust the free market it’s really really good at solving these things.

All those places will reopen as new restaurants and there are at least 30 very large operations that will be opening this year: Uncle Julio's, Firebirds, Birra Birra, 2 Hopddodies, Burn, Hatch CC, Industry Gastropub, BWW... I could go on and on.

And of course in 2017 we had a ton of new places.

Where are the service people going to come from?
Out of state, rural.

I talked to a waiter from Austin the other day who moved here because the money is 90% of Austin but the cost of living is half.

^

I don't disagree but IMO things are getting worse and will continue to before we see any turnaround.

Also, operators seem to be having an increasingly difficult time in this area. It comes up almost every time I talk to one of them.

^

I don't disagree but IMO things are getting worse and will continue to before we see any turnaround.

Also, operators seem to be having an increasingly difficult time in this area. It comes up almost every time I talk to one of them.

Generally speaking the best operators will raise menu prices to pay and attract the best staff.

The reason local will run circles around national is a local operator has the flexibility and speed to do it, big chains have a mountain to climb plus shareholders to answer too.

That is true and what is happening more often is that the best people are getting a share of the profits.

To be honest, I think it's a lack of good managers/operators. Service remains very good at the places that are well-run, Good Egg and Hal Smith restaurants being good examples. Both of those groups, though, offered great service before they were huge operations and really offered a "career path."

Management at some places really cares, and at other places they don't. Makes a huge difference.

^^^^^^^^
This is true but also due to training as much as ongoing oversight. Hal Smith has a very rigorous training program. Not sure about Jimmy's Egg. I've talked about this quite a bit with the general manager of Mickey Mantle's, who is a friend. That is a place where the service has not slipped in 18 years, despite several GM changes and most of their management staff over the years getting their own stores or otherwise moving on. Yet they never miss a beat, and it is in large part because they invest so heavily up front in training. A server there won't interact directly with a customer until a couple of weeks of training, and an experienced bartender from somewhere else always starts on the floor and has to work their way back behind the bar.

Even if it is at “crisis” levels that’s ultimately a good thing. Restaurants will increases prices to pay staff more, staff gets paid more and does a better job, rising wages attract more people into the service industry, on the flip side as prices rise the pace will slow down and we’ll come to a natural equilibrium.

To make a long post short, trust the free market it’s really really good at solving these things.

Really? Does this actually happen? Granted it's been a bit, but I've not known a single restaurant in OKC to pay servers above minimum hourly wage.

^^^^^^^^
This is true but also due to training as much as ongoing oversight.

Right, absolutely, and part of that training process being weeding out poor employees. But developing that kind of program takes a major investment from management.

We are loyal to a handful of restaurants that offer consistent food & service. Don't want to blow $100-150 on a clueless server, table next to the bathrooms, bad acoustics, cold food, empty glasses, etc.

Pete, the industry will sort itself out. Guernsey Park, West and Kaiser's are three recent examples of a closure, sale by an unsuccessful operator, and an inevitable closure.

Guernsey Park is re-opening with the same owners, kitchen and wait staff, just a new concept, Kaiser's is beset by owner and operator problems, not really a service problem, and I think West was something the owners just couldn't get a handle on, again not really a service problem.

Really? Does this actually happen? Granted it's been a bit, but I've not known a single restaurant in OKC to pay servers above minimum hourly wage.

It will if this is a true "crisis". Labor shortages drive wages up, it's econ 101.

I work in the grocery industry and see many of the same problems. I think it might be a sign of a more systematic issue. We can't afford to pay everyone crazy money, we typically hire high school kids 16 and up. We start them at $7.50 and can have them up to $9.00 or so within a year if they're hard workers. That's damn good money for a high school kid working 20ish hours a week. IMO of course. The problem is, most kids think they're worth $11-15 an hour to sack groceries or mop bathrooms. I've hired probably 300 kids in the last few years, we employ between 80-110 people depending on the time of year. I can name one two hands the number of kids that stood out to me in that whole pack. Most just don't care, and almost act like they deserve a check whether they work or not. But boy when you find a good one you can usually tell within the first week and they're always the ones that end up running a department or being a lead in an area. The work ethic of a lot of teens sure seems to be on a very gentle downhill slide. I dunno, maybe that's just the way I see it but I feel that's the consensus at a lot of places including restaurants.

3.2% is really really really low unemployment rate. 4% is considered full employment.

It's not just here. Any developed nation eventually hits a point of "apathetic excess" where nobody has ever really "had it bad". Why try hard at anything when your fall back is still a warm bed, a car, and a smart phone that can give you everything in the world that can be digitized?

Couple that with special snowflake parenting and you have exactly what John1744 describes. There's no passion, no desire, no drive. The line between 'okay success' and 'massive failure' isn't really a big deal and the worst possible case is living with your parents for another few years until you find something else.

Social media has literally everyone thinking that they can be a stay-at-home, overpaid Instagram model some day, so everyone's sights are set way too high and in most cases outside of geographical possibility. So when reality comes crashing down and your best bet to living a semi successful life is to wait tables at a trendy restaurant, you're going to be bummed out.

It’s amazing that some places have good service with those lazy, privileged kids while others just blame the “generation” . Just maybe some operators don’t do a very good job of real training and real managing. Then, they staff lean to keep overhead down and stress the employees out.

There are several fast food places I go to from time to time whose employees are great and others have chronic service problems. Same brand, same wages, same city. Might it be more about the managers and owners than the “kids”?

This is a great thread and let me give my .02...

Up here in the Twin Cities unemployment is like 2.4% or something, crazy low. Every low end job place you can think of (fast food, c-store clerk, etc) has damn near permanent signs up for "Help Wanted, $13/hr plus" out front.

This problem, however, is not unique to service. I work in the heavy civil construction field, and in about 99% of the offices I visit, finding AND keeping good help is nearing critical stages. Unions are big up here and the halls have no one there for jobs (and the ones there are there for a reason...they suck). Men who have owned and operated family businesses for 30+ years are closing up shop, not because they're losing money or anything, but because they can't fill crews with capable operators, nor do any of their kids want to work to learn the business and take it over.

Filling construction jobs is going to continue to be a big problem. It can be a lucrative industry to be in, but you've gotta work. Industry organizations are working to get in front of HS kids to show them what's out there in construction. In a union state like MN (and even in non-union states), you could go work construction out of HS, live at home for a few year, bankroll thousands and then if you really enjoyed it, go get an associates in something related, or even go 4 year for construction science and then move into the office for estimating/project management.

I think that part of the problem is the Federal minimum wage for servers hasn't gone up, or at least since I have been in the restaurant business and I started in ~'88?? Granted servers in the US do make tips but unless those menu items and average bill has gone up as well, servers are basically making the same amount that they were 30+ years ago. Unless you are working at high end restaurants or you are turning tables 3+ times a night every night it is hard making ends meet.

I have been on holiday in Spain a couple times and there tips are not necessary and if you do it is only a dollar or two, and service there was as good there as it is here. For people to think that you have to tip a server for them to do their job is just an excuse. How about making a decent wage, loving what you do, and wanting to keep your job to do a good job? I don't expect to get tipped at my current job to perform the way I do. I didn't expect to put out good food for tips when I did work in restaurants, I did it because I love cooking and wanted to keep my job.

There is also this: American tipping is rooted in slavery—and it still hurts workers today (https://www.fordfoundation.org/ideas/equals-change-blog/posts/american-tipping-is-rooted-in-slavery-and-it-still-hurts-workers-today/)

I think that part of the problem is the Federal minimum wage for servers hasn't gone up, or at least since I have been in the restaurant business and I started in ~'88?? Granted servers in the US do make tips but unless those menu items and average bill has gone up as well, servers are basically making the same amount that they were 30+ years ago. Unless you are working at high end restaurants or you are turning tables 3+ times a night every night it is hard making ends meet.

I have been on holiday in Spain a couple times and there tips are not necessary and if you do it is only a dollar or two, and service there was as good there as it is here. For people to think that you have to tip a server for them to do their job is just an excuse. How about making a decent wage, loving what you do, and wanting to keep your job to do a good job? I don't expect to get tipped at my current job to perform the way I do. I didn't expect to put out good food for tips when I did work in restaurants, I did it because I love cooking and wanted to keep my job.

There is also this: American tipping is rooted in slavery—and it still hurts workers today (https://www.fordfoundation.org/ideas/equals-change-blog/posts/american-tipping-is-rooted-in-slavery-and-it-still-hurts-workers-today/)

Curious, were menu prices more inflated there? One of the arguments of restaurant operators here is that the labor cost would increase menu prices by 30-50%. I don't think tips should go away, but I shouldn't be directly paying the salary of someone's worker. If you require your employee to wear your uniform, represent your brand, and sell/upsell your items - you should be paying their wage. If they go above and beyond, by all means leave a few extra bucks.

Curious, were menu prices more inflated there? One of the arguments of restaurant operators here is that the labor cost would increase menu prices by 30-50%. I don't think tips should go away, but I shouldn't be directly paying the salary of someone's worker. If you require your employee to wear your uniform, represent your brand, and sell/upsell your items - you should be paying their wage. If they go above and beyond, by all means leave a few extra bucks.

Menu prices were higher and service is crazy slow because they don’t have many waiters. Average waiter in Malaga probably waited 20 tables. It’s pretty common place to order a beer and a cocktail. You drink the beer while you wait 15-20 minutes for a cocktail.

On the flip side, Europeans find american waiters highly annoying.

Really? Does this actually happen? Granted it's been a bit, but I've not known a single restaurant in OKC to pay servers above minimum hourly wage.

Bigger tabs = bigger tips. People might think raising the menu price of menus an average of $1 wouldn't make a huge difference, but if the average guest orders 3 items and you run through 25 guests per night, that's $75/night of sales which should equate to $10-$15 extra cash a night. That probably increases a server's yearly wage by around $2,500. Not a lot of money per se, but for someone making under $50,000, it's not insignificant.

This is a great thread and let me give my .02...

Up here in the Twin Cities unemployment is like 2.4% or something, crazy low. Every low end job place you can think of (fast food, c-store clerk, etc) has damn near permanent signs up for "Help Wanted, $13/hr plus" out front.

This problem, however, is not unique to service. I work in the heavy civil construction field, and in about 99% of the offices I visit, finding AND keeping good help is nearing critical stages. Unions are big up here and the halls have no one there for jobs (and the ones there are there for a reason...they suck). Men who have owned and operated family businesses for 30+ years are closing up shop, not because they're losing money or anything, but because they can't fill crews with capable operators, nor do any of their kids want to work to learn the business and take it over.

Filling construction jobs is going to continue to be a big problem. It can be a lucrative industry to be in, but you've gotta work. Industry organizations are working to get in front of HS kids to show them what's out there in construction. In a union state like MN (and even in non-union states), you could go work construction out of HS, live at home for a few year, bankroll thousands and then if you really enjoyed it, go get an associates in something related, or even go 4 year for construction science and then move into the office for estimating/project management.

Article today about this very topic in the WSJ


Forget the Midwest. Minnesota Casts Itself as the North
It won’t help the Vikings but to solve its population problem, the state is branding itself as ‘the North’; ‘Sick of being this afterthought in this afterthought called the Midwest’
A mural in St. Paul, Minn., is part of a planned rejuvenation of the city’s downtown.
A mural in St. Paul, Minn., is part of a planned rejuvenation of the city’s downtown. PHOTO: DAVID JOLES/MINNEAPOLIS STAR TRIBUNE/ZUMA PRESS
By Shayndi Raice
Jan. 21, 2018 7:54 p.m. ET
134 COMMENTS
A growing movement in Minnesota aims to break free of its Midwest roots and embrace its bone-chilling winters with a new identity: the North.

Seeking to conjure up images of competitive winter sports, icy lakes and snuggling in front of a toasty fire, these northern evangelists are ready for their moment in the sun when Super Bowl LII comes to Minneapolis on Feb. 4.

Minnesotans are “sick of being this afterthought in this afterthought called the Midwest. We’re the star of the North and no one else can offer that,” said R.T. Rybak, who served as mayor of Minneapolis from 2002 until 2014.


The state is using the North to tackle an economic challenge: historically low unemployment and sluggish population growth. Employers complain that they can’t find the workers they need to fill jobs. The unemployment rate in the Minneapolis region stood at 2.4% in November. The state has an unemployment rate of 3.1%, a full percentage point lower than the national average.

Slow Growth
Annual change in population
Source: U.S. Census Bureau via Federal Reserve Bank of St.Louis.
%
Midwest
Minnesota
West
South
2002
’04
’06
’08
’10
’12
’14
’16
0.0
0.5
1.0
1.5
2.0
The state’s population inched up 0.68% in 2016, while the Midwest region had a mere 0.15% uptick. By contrast, the Western U.S. grew 1.08% in 2016 and the South grew 1.06%.

The Super Bowl host committee has embraced the slogan “Bold North.” Splashy stunts include a Bold North Zipline sending the courageous flying 100 feet in the air across the Mississippi River.

Convincing people to move to Minnesota is “the most important work we can do in terms of growing our economy and staying competitive for the future,” said Michael Langley, chief executive of the regional economic development group Greater MSP and an executive board member of the Super Bowl host committee.

Cities across the country are trying to figure out ways to attract millennials. Embracing its cold reputation, and casting off caricatures of Minnesotans like the heavy northern accents in the 1996 movie “Fargo,” is key to attracting young talent, North advocates say. Instead, they want to emphasize wintertime sports like cross-country skiing, skijoring, curling and ice fishing.

“Different cities are competing for talent and you’ve got to realize you’re in a competition and have a strategy and be in it to win it,” said Eric Dayton, co-founder and CEO of clothing company Askov Finlayson, which produces popular hats with ‘NORTH’ boldly emblazoned on them.

RELATED

Struggling Americans Once Sought Greener Pastures—Now They’re Stuck
In Cities With Low Unemployment, Wages Finally Start to Get Bigger
The Top Colleges in Midwestern Big Cities
A-hed: Selling a House to Millennials? Bring a Camera, and Fake Eyelashes
Mr. Dayton, who is also the son of Minnesota Gov. Mark Dayton, is largely credited with starting the movement when in 2015 he advocated in a TED talk that Minnesotans embrace the cold.

“What if just as the Scandinavian countries have their own identity...what if we had our own region as the northern U.S. or to be concise, the North,” said Mr. Dayton in his TED talk.


There’s a winter festival, called The Great Northern; a summer festival, Northern Spark; Grow North MN, a group connecting agricultural entrepreneurs and the tech community has started calling the Twin Cities the start-up capital of the North.

Mark Grindy, 29 years old, watched Mr. Dayton’s TED talk and said he found it compelling. From Duluth, Minn., Mr. Grindy moved to Washington, D.C., after college to work as a speechwriter. But he returned to his home state in 2015 and now lives in Minneapolis with his girlfriend.

“There’s a sense that if you can be optimistic in this weather, ain’t nothin gonna get you down,” he said.

Write to Shayndi Raice at shayndi.raice@wsj.com

https://www.wsj.com/articles/minnesota-embraces-its-terrible-weather-wont-you-too-1516582494

Curious, were menu prices more inflated there? One of the arguments of restaurant operators here is that the labor cost would increase menu prices by 30-50%. I don't think tips should go away, but I shouldn't be directly paying the salary of someone's worker. If you require your employee to wear your uniform, represent your brand, and sell/upsell your items - you should be paying their wage. If they go above and beyond, by all means leave a few extra bucks.

This +1

It’s amazing that some places have good service with those lazy, privileged kids while others just blame the “generation” . Just maybe some operators don’t do a very good job of real training and real managing. Then, they staff lean to keep overhead down and stress the employees out.

There are several fast food places I go to from time to time whose employees are great and others have chronic service problems. Same brand, same wages, same city. Might it be more about the managers and owners than the “kids”?

I do agree with this, proper training is key and motivating kids to work hard. And those that don't cut them loose and hope they learn a lesson at the next place they apply at.

I'd be happy with a server at a restaurant who just *listens* to me. Don't put lemon in my water glass if I ask you not to. Make my sandwich or cook my steak or give me the side i ask for, not the one you think i want, or the one the last three customers ordered. Just listen to me. Pretty basic.

The little things like just getting my basic order correct will make me happy. You don't have to shower me with happy talk and reaffirm my menu choices with "Absolutely!" especially if you're going to make them incorrectly. And please don't serve my food stone stinking cold, too. I don't think of these as complicated issues.... but they often are.

As for me as a customer, I try to appreciate that the server job is a pain, and in that vein I try to be pleasant, reasonable, and appreciative of the work being done to serve me. I try not to make unreasonable requests, and say "Thank you" with a smile even for just a water glass refill. I did my bit as a server. I get that side of it.

But, like I said, just listen to my order, and that'll go a long way to make me happy.

I feel pretty fortunate. I eat out for lunch 3-4x a week with a group of colleagues and we rarely have a negative experience - and we try to go to different and new places most days.

The wife and I and friends go out to eat dinner 1-3x a week and, again, rarely is the service memorable either way - really good or really bad. That said, we do tend to avoid 'popular' establishment on weekend evenings, so that may help in avoiding bad service.

If service is bad, it almost always boils down to; food takes too long to get out, temperature of food is not hot or the wait staff is lacking when it comes to drink refills.

What really aggravates us is when we show up at a restaurant and they tell us there will be a wait (20-45+ minutes) and when you look into the restaurant they have numerous empty tables. This seems to come down to not enough staff so they only allow so many parties to be seated at any one time, or, (and even more aggravating) the restaurant has a policy of reserving called in table reservations up to 40 minutes before the party is even set to arrive.

I'll have to wildly disagree on the table reservation thing. If I reserve a table for four at 8pm, and the average time spent per group at a table is 45-90 minutes, then the place damn well better either be holding a table for four 40 minutes before my reservation or be prepared to box up any remaining food and eject the party currently halfway through their meal when my group arrives. Since that is most certainly not an option, most places go for the reserve a table plan, as that is the literal definition of a reservation. Not bothering to staff is WAY more aggravating to me than an establishment honoring their reservations.

If I go someplace that I know reservations are a good idea and I don't have one, I don't mind a wait. That's on me. When they tell me there's a wait, then I have the choice to wait or go somewhere else. But if I DO have a reservation, then there's a good chance that I have plans after as well. So if I make one, and when I get there (on time, late is a horse of a different color) the restaurant says "Oh well, we're busy, you're going to have to wait" that will almost certainly be the last time I'm there. EVER.

tl;dr: Honor your reservations or go right out of business for all I care. If this means people without a reservation have to wait, that's just the way it works.

I'll have to wildly disagree on the table reservation thing. If I reserve a table for four at 8pm, and the average time spent per group at a table is 45-90 minutes, then the place damn well better either be holding a table for four 40 minutes before my reservation or be prepared to box up any remaining food and eject the party currently halfway through their meal when my group arrives. Since that is most certainly not an option, most places go for the reserve a table plan, as that is the literal definition of a reservation. Not bothering to staff is WAY more aggravating to me than an establishment honoring their reservations.

If I go someplace that I know reservations are a good idea and I don't have one, I don't mind a wait. That's on me. When they tell me there's a wait, then I have the choice to wait or go somewhere else. But if I DO have a reservation, then there's a good chance that I have plans after as well. So if I make one, and when I get there (on time, late is a horse of a different color) the restaurant says "Oh well, we're busy, you're going to have to wait" that will almost certainly be the last time I'm there. EVER.

tl;dr: Honor your reservations or go right out of business for all I care. If this means people without a reservation have to wait, that's just the way it works.

Actually, I find most restaurants we frequent do not do that - hold a table 40+ minutes before it is reserved. Nobody in my party would ever expect such a thing. My expectations is that the manager or host can run a restaurant appropriately and not hold a table until maybe 15-20 minutes before it's needed. That fact that we often have to wait a few minutes to be seated with a reservation would seem to confirm this.

I couldn't imagine holding several tables (empty) for 40 or so minutes prior to reservation during busy times - talk about loosing money in an industry that is tight as it is. Imagine if some of those people show up 5-10 minutes late - that's almost an hour of a table just sitting empty with people waiting (and often leaving).

The one exception I can see is a large group that will be difficult to accommodate at a standard table.

Another exception would be for establishments that are known to have patrons that loiter long after they have eaten - also, dinner vs lunch service.

That's why I said showing up late is a horse of a different color. Reservation at 8pm and I am there at 8pm? Damn well better have my table. Reservation at 8pm and I show up at 8:15pm? If I didn't call to let them know then I fully expect that table to be gone. I am thinking more of a specific reservation, more of 'a' table than 'any table'. Table at the window, quiet table in corner, table near entrance, etc. In the event of any table, then I agree, I would expect them to be intelligent enough to know their business and plan accordingly for the current flow.

What really aggravates us is when we show up at a restaurant and they tell us there will be a wait (20-45+ minutes) and when you look into the restaurant they have numerous empty tables. This seems to come down to not enough staff so they only allow so many parties to be seated at any one time

Who else does this other than texas de brazil?

Who else does this other than texas de brazil?

I've had it happen several places.... Most memorable was Pizza 23 where they not only made us wait but then they seated us at a table that had been empty the entire time we waited... Then after the crowd cleared out they pretty much ignored us. Not even a drink refill.

It seems like bad service has a way of working itself out for the better or worse. I'm looking at you S&B Burger NW Expressway...

I've had it happen several places.... Most memorable was Pizza 23 where they not only made us wait but then they seated us at a table that had been empty the entire time we waited... Then after the crowd cleared out they pretty much ignored us. Not even a drink refill.

I'll add that to the notes when people ask why I don't go there.

I'll add that to the notes when people ask why I don't go there.

Just saying they have bad pizza should be enough, they should just go to Gusto down the street, lol...

The best waiters are in Paris. Stop laughing and hear me out: When you arrive at a restaurant you select an empty table and sit. The waiter will greet you with a word or two and you will respond with a word or two, as he arranges each placesetting, sets water and menus. He will expect your drink order. He will return with your drinks and expect your food order. When you're finished he will remove your plates, bring a dessert menu or cart, and offer coffee or an after-dinner drink. You may typically linger as long as you wish (we've seen people linger for hours). When you ask for the bill he will have it ready and in his apron. He won't introduce himself, interrupt, or ask how the food is or offer another drink. He is a professional who will be watching nearby, waiting and ready to serve, and for you to tell him what you need. After you leave the table but before you reach the door, he will have cleaned your table and be ready for the next diner. I'd like to see this here.

Just saying they have bad pizza should be enough, they should just go to Gusto down the street, lol...

Oddly enough I like the wings better there. I need to revisit it. I'd suck it up and go to Halls on 8th.

The best waiters are in Paris. Stop laughing and hear me out: When you arrive at a restaurant you select an empty table and sit. The waiter will greet you with a word or two and you will respond with a word or two, as he arranges each placesetting, sets water and menus. He will expect your drink order. He will return with your drinks and expect your food order. When you're finished he will remove your plates, bring a dessert menu or cart, and offer coffee or an after-dinner drink. You may typically linger as long as you wish (we've seen people linger for hours). When you ask for the bill he will have it ready and in his apron. He won't introduce himself, interrupt, or ask how the food is or offer another drink. He is a professional who will be watching nearby, waiting and ready to serve, and for you to tell him what you need. After you leave the table but before you reach the door, he will have cleaned your table and be ready for the next diner. I'd like to see this here.

Absolutely, this! We had the best service we've ever had anywhere at any place we went to in Paris many years ago.

Oddly enough I like the wings better there. I need to revisit it. I'd suck it up and go to Halls on 8th.

Haven't been to Hall's, they're not currently on our list due to Elise's ALEC alignment and general political views and possible abuse of her office (minor, but still). And yeah, I know, I have no idea what the owners of the other pizza places around here do politics-wise, they may not meet our approval either, but at least they're not out in the open with their bad legislation.

Oddly enough I like the wings better there. I need to revisit it. I'd suck it up and go to Halls on 8th.

I like pretty much everything on their menu... aside from the pizza. Short rib gnocchi and lamb chops are both great too.

The best waiters are in Paris. Stop laughing and hear me out: When you arrive at a restaurant you select an empty table and sit. The waiter will greet you with a word or two and you will respond with a word or two, as he arranges each placesetting, sets water and menus. He will expect your drink order. He will return with your drinks and expect your food order. When you're finished he will remove your plates, bring a dessert menu or cart, and offer coffee or an after-dinner drink. You may typically linger as long as you wish (we've seen people linger for hours). When you ask for the bill he will have it ready and in his apron. He won't introduce himself, interrupt, or ask how the food is or offer another drink. He is a professional who will be watching nearby, waiting and ready to serve, and for you to tell him what you need. After you leave the table but before you reach the door, he will have cleaned your table and be ready for the next diner. I'd like to see this here.
I’d agree and add that most in London are good too. The idea of servers chit chatting is strictly an American thing. Service managers here confuse friendly with good service. Professionalism and inobtrusive efficiency trumps canned friendliness every time.

I’d agree and add that most in London are good too. The idea of servers chit chatting is strictly an American thing. Service managers here confuse friendly with good service. Professionalism and inobtrusive efficiency trumps canned friendliness every time.

Cattlemen's has very professional service. There's not a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. You sit down and they are ready to serve, not entertain.

I work in the grocery industry and see many of the same problems. I think it might be a sign of a more systematic issue. We can't afford to pay everyone crazy money, we typically hire high school kids 16 and up. We start them at $7.50 and can have them up to $9.00 or so within a year if they're hard workers. That's damn good money for a high school kid working 20ish hours a week. IMO of course. The problem is, most kids think they're worth $11-15 an hour to sack groceries or mop bathrooms.

Look at it from an employee's point of view—if you're making $7.50 an hour and you can get fired and the walk into the grocery store across the street and make $7.50 an hour there, where's the incentive to care? We had that problem when I managed a Burger King—people would blow up over something stupid and walk out, or burn out and stop showing up, and then you'd see them next week at Taco Bell doing the same thing for the same wages. They knew damn well how many fast food restaurants there were in Norman and that they all pay minimum wage, so who needs Burger King in particular?

Pride in your work? Satisfaction with a job well done? It's 2018: in most corporations that gets you the same $7.50 an hour.

For me personally, it's hit and miss. Only on rare occasions have I had such bad service that I walked out. In regard to the original question though, it doesn't only apply to restaurants. Grocery, clothing, and home improvement stores, industry, construction, contractors ... you name it. Finding good hands can be tough. In my line of work, we try to be teachers to new hands, but now days many don’t want to listen. They come in the doors thinking they know everything about everything. They can’t be taught. What they consider to be doing quality work, and turning out a quality product often leaves me shaking my head. And then they want to argue with you. When I started out with the my current employer, almost 30 years ago, everyone was on the same page, and all the older hands were teachers. And if you couldn’t or wouldn’t do what was expected of you, you were walked to the door. They didn’t mess around.


It’s not only about keeping your tea glass full. Maybe since the restaurant industry is so much more in the public eye, and obvious to most people, that’s what they see most. but a lot of other industries have their winners too.

Haven't been to Hall's, they're not currently on our list due to Elise's ALEC alignment and general political views and possible abuse of her office (minor, but still). And yeah, I know, I have no idea what the owners of the other pizza places around here do politics-wise, they may not meet our approval either, but at least they're not out in the open with their bad legislation.

You're a better person for paying attention to those things, which reminds me. Where is your liquor store again?

What really aggravates us is when we show up at a restaurant and they tell us there will be a wait (20-45+ minutes) and when you look into the restaurant they have numerous empty tables.

I will defend this, having worked in the industry. Yes, it's about having enough staff, but restaurants schedule based on typical sales. Especially when you're considering people who are in a tipped based economy, having too many of them there than what is normally required is bad for everyone. So sometimes, you end up with not enough people. When I waited tables the rules were that we could have 3 to 4 tops (tables) assuming they were normal size. Basically, provide good service for up to 16-20 people in total. Any more than that and service is going to suck. So a restaurant might plan for 20 tops if that is their normal business for a given night, and have 5-6 wait staff. Then, if they suddenly end up having more business than expected that night, they can either overload their staff or have people wait. Neither solution is ideal.

Ditto on Texas De Brazil. I though my old man was going to have a meltdown when they wouldn't seat us in a practically empty restaurant. 2 of our 8 adults hadn't shown up yet, and we were forced to stand there with an infant and a toddler until our whole party got there. They missed out on a few drink orders.

You're a better person for paying attention to those things, which reminds me. Where is your liquor store again?

I don't have one, maybe you're thinking of jerry? Unless you're just talking about the one I patronize, which is Modern Liquor on about NW 30th/Penn.

Curious, were menu prices more inflated there? One of the arguments of restaurant operators here is that the labor cost would increase menu prices by 30-50%. I don't think tips should go away, but I shouldn't be directly paying the salary of someone's worker. If you require your employee to wear your uniform, represent your brand, and sell/upsell your items - you should be paying their wage. If they go above and beyond, by all means leave a few extra bucks.

No, in fact I thought for the most part they were a bit cheaper. They also have a menu concept which gives you a 2-3 course meal with a few choices for a set price anywhere from 10-25 euros., sometimes including wine. Also wine is a lot less expensive there. There are also lots of tapas bars there where you get a free appetizer when buying a drink.

Sort of off topic, but I would hate to be a waiter in a largest foreign destination city. My sister worked in NYC for a while and tipping from foreign visitors could be terrible, since they didn't know US customs.

Sort of off topic, but I would hate to be a waiter in a largest foreign destination city. My sister worked in NYC for a while and tipping from foreign visitors could be terrible, since they didn't know US customs.

Or maybe they're from cultures where tips are not expected ;)

Sort of off topic, but I would hate to be a waiter in a largest foreign destination city. My sister worked in NYC for a while and tipping from foreign visitors could be terrible, since they didn't know US customs.
Lol, oh they know they just don’t do it. It’s also strange when I go to Europe and since I’m American, servers half expect a tip. It is getting common in France to tip. Like in a cafe environment when you stop in for a mid afternoon beer and a tarte flambee to leave some a euro. Or a all night 8 course to leave a €20. More of a guest ire than an obligation.

Or maybe they're from cultures where tips are not expected ;)

That's what I meant. It wasn't an attack on the tourists btw. If anything, high tourist.destinations are the perfect places to impliment "no tipping please" policies and pay wait staff better. Although when I waited tables I averaged about $20 an hour. So wouldn't have wanted a pay cut.

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I hate to get into the tipping discussion again, but that’s the whole thing that people outside the service industry don’t understand when advocating for tipping to go away. Most restaurants would not be able to pay servers even, say, $15/hr without significantly raising prices. And it would still be a giant pay cut for most decent servers. It would be a little over $30K/yr. I know servers who make over $70K/yr. You think we have a shortage of good servers now...wait until you give the best ones a $40K haircut and double or triple menu prices everywhere.

Back to the matter at hand, service in general.

I have to agree, generally, service everywhere has declined. Servers are downright inattentive most of the time, management seems to not care one way or another. Worse, I don't think most management teams even know how to provide or train their staff to provide good service.

Most of the time I have to struggle just to get a tea glass refilled. The idea of returning to a table a second or third time to check on customers seems totally lost.

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I hate to get into the tipping discussion again, but that’s the whole thing that people outside the service industry don’t understand when advocating for tipping to go away. Most restaurants would not be able to pay servers even, say, $15/hr without significantly raising prices. And it would still be a giant pay cut for most decent servers. It would be a little over $30K/yr. I know servers who make over $70K/yr. You think we have a shortage of good servers now...wait until you give the best ones a $40K haircut and double or triple menu prices everywhere.

If you take the total of your bill and add a tip, then the menu prices are already essentially raised by 20%. So, would raising prices by 20-25% cover this? Would patrons be willing to simply pay this increase and not worry about tipping?

Personally, I prefer a lower menu price with the option to tip based on the quality of the service.

I guess there are may be a handful of servers in this market that make $70k a year, but that would be extremely rare (that's $33.65/hr with consistently 40 hours a week).

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Well, for one thing raising the menu prices 25% would actually mean the customer would actually increase the tab by a bit over 27%, as sales tax would now be included in the gratuity portion. I think there would be a point where increasing prices would cause some customers to not dine out as much or at all, which would ultimately be borne by the server in the form of fewer hours.

Regarding people making $70K/year, there definitely are some, and a handful who make even more. But there are many, MANY people who earn in the $40K-$50K range (or at that proportional, if adjusted for not working a 40 hour work week. And I simply don't think a ton of restaurants could survive with those types of hourly rates, I think hours would be more difficult to come by as cutting staff would be WAY more aggressive, which would lead to customer dissatisfaction with under-staffing, and of course people earning below their potential would be less motivated as servers or would abandon the industry. I really do believe (and this is from the perspective of someone who HAS worked for tips, not the perspective of management) that it would make things worse from the standpoint of PROFESSIONAL servers (as opposed to clock punchers).