If you take the total of your bill and add a tip, then the menu prices are already essentially raised by 20%. So, would raising prices by 20-25% cover this? Would patrons be willing to simply pay this increase and not worry about tipping?

Personally, I prefer a lower menu price with the option to tip based on the quality of the service.

I guess there are may be a handful of servers in this market that make $70k a year, but that would be extremely rare (that's $33.65/hr with consistently 40 hours a week).

I think a 10% increase would be barely noticeable to most people and would enable most restaurants to pay a decently hourly wage. I mean, if you figure that the average (which I think this is low but) bill is $30, and a waiter averages a couple of turns an hour during thier shift, then that would give them another $6 an hour to pay thier servers. People could still tip if they choose so, but at least you wouldn't have people making $2.35 and hour and having thier livelihood dependent on the whim of a customer and the performance of the kitchen and bar.

Plus, it might fix service issues. If I was a local place that advertised $9 minimum wages plus tips, I bet I could steal all the best service staff in town.

I think there is a huge disconnect with how much the best servers in town make. It ain’t $9. In fact, that’s probably about how much the worst servers at Waffle House probably make, on average.

I think the huge disconnect might be the 'with tips'. Truth be told I haven't been to one in years, but I don't really imagine Waffle House's guaranteed base salary for servers is $9/hr.

I think there is a huge disconnect with how much the best servers in town make. It ain’t $9. In fact, that’s probably about how much the worst servers at Waffle House probably make, on average.

I agree it's more. But it would be a nice base, especially if they get tips on top of it.

I do know carhops at Sonic who get a lot less sometimes though.

I think the huge disconnect might be the 'with tips'. Truth be told I haven't been to one in years, but I don't really imagine Waffle House's guaranteed base salary for servers is $9/hr.
No, what I am saying is that with tips, I’m sure most Waffle House servers average over $9.00/hr. The national average income for servers receiving tips is around $12.00/hr.

If you increased menu prices and bumped servers to $9.00/hr base, customers would be aware of it and many would use that as an excuse to not tip at all (more than those who already stiff servers). I’m 100% convinced doing it halfway like that would DEFINITELY be a pay cut for servers. Also, as mentioned before, restaurants would cut staff way more aggressively and customers would see unintended consequences related to understaffing.

The only way I could see it working is if servers were paid a complete living wage from the restaurant and more or less eliminated tipping altogether, but this would dramatically cut hours, cut the available labor pool (students need not apply) and I think most restaurants would probably need to at least double the ticket prices (labor per hour would be at least quadrupled, but probably more like quintupled or more).

The current system works very well for servers who approach it like a profession.

By the way, the current system does not preclude restaurants from playing servers and bartenders a better wage than the server minimum, and many higher end places do just that. Especially for their veteran servers and bartenders.

How many tax dollars are not being collected because of the tipping culture? I'm assuming majority of servers don't accurately report tips.

No, what I am saying is that with tips, I’m sure most Waffle House servers average over $9.00/hr.

My bad, I had misunderstood your post to be replying to Jerry's suggestion of $9 base pay, with tips on top of that.

Funny someone mentioned sonic and tipping. I worked at one when I was 16. The boys had to work the back and the pretty girls got to car hop. The not so pretty girls took orders from the soundboard and made drinks. It used to make me sick that I worked over the hot grill, made the food, packaged and bagged the food to order. The not so pretty girls organized and placed the drinks. And the pretty girls simply roller skated the food & drinks to the cars and took juicy tips from dirty old men on their way home from work. The car hops sometimes made $100 a day while earning the same $4.25/hr as the rest of us.

I like it when a bunch of people who have never run a business tell business’ how it should be

How many tax dollars are not being collected because of the tipping culture? I'm assuming majority of servers don't accurately report tips.

I'd insist that's an accurate assessment. With credit card tips it's easier to track. Whether or not they report it is another thing.

Most servers claim their credit card tips at a minimum, and that generally makes up a >70% share of your tips. Whether or not the claim the cash depends on a variety of factors - but remember - if you don't claim it, you can't use it to do something like purchase a home.

Your average server in this city probably clears around $12/hour with all their compensation - and since they probably don't claim it all their taxes are a little lower.

Your average server at a place with a $30/person check average clears probably closer to $20/hr and for every $20 you increase the per person check average you probably increase the average hourly by $5.

The thing about serving that is a huge draw is that is extremely flexible - in an environment where an employer is paying $2.13/hr to its employee, the employer can fudge a little more on how the restaurant is staffed - but if you have to start paying these servers $15/hr then perhaps you don't let Jeff pick that shift up from Rachel because you can't afford to let Rachel off in favor of the weaker Jeff. At least right now - if Jeff screws up, while the business takes a certain hit, it doesn't take the same immediate hit that they would be taking if they were paying Jeff $15/hr.

If we leave the tip-based model in favor of a wage based model that's fine I guess - I just hope that the country is ready to kiss 45-minute sit down dinners good bye. You'll only rarely get out of a full service restaurant in under an hour - and the average dinner will probably run about 20 minutes longer.

I know this thread has been about the restaurant industry - but the title seems to invite a broader scope - I personally see more laxed or outright terrible service within the retail market, as opposed to when going out to eat. Trying to find someone to ask where something is or if they have more in the back at Walmart is near impossible. You used to could walk into a place like a Radio Shack and find extremely knowable staff to pick their brain. I find most retail employees simply don't give a sh*t and maybe that's because there is no incentive like a tip. Or, is it because of the extremely low wages? Or, is it just a reflection of our current society?

Funny someone mentioned sonic and tipping. I worked at one when I was 16. The boys had to work the back and the pretty girls got to car hop. The not so pretty girls took orders from the soundboard and made drinks. It used to make me sick that I worked over the hot grill, made the food, packaged and bagged the food to order. The not so pretty girls organized and placed the drinks. And the pretty girls simply roller skated the food & drinks to the cars and took juicy tips from dirty old men on their way home from work. The car hops sometimes made $100 a day while earning the same $4.25/hr as the rest of us.
Yeah, this really should be made up for in different levels of compensation by role, which is how it works in most businesses. In the case of restaurants, line cooks and even hostesses (who are usually the least experienced employees) are paid an hourly rate higher than a server’s. Of course the server (and especially bartenders depending on the place) are still usually the best-compensated employees other than managers. In some cases their pay might even exceed their manager’s.

All of that said, there are many places where the culture dictates that the people benefitting from gratuities tip out some of the supporting team members, especially when it was a big shift and the rest of the team went above and beyond. It’s not legal to require this, but you’ll often see it done voluntarily, especially when a group is really tight.

I like it when a bunch of people who have never run a business tell business’ how it should be
For the record I’ve run several, including 16 years of running one where tipping is a big part of the compensation model for some. :)

Also for the record the starting base of my tipped employees is over minimum wage - with some veteran staff earning well over $10 as a base - but if we eliminated tipping - even with a significant hourly bump, which we couldn’t afford without major price increases - I wouldn’t be able to keep my good staff. Most of them are used to averaging $20-30/hr. By the way, I think service is way better because of it, too.

Duplicate

I know this thread has been about the restaurant industry - but the title seems to invite a broader scope - I personally see more laxed or outright terrible service within the retail market, as opposed to when going out to eat. Trying to find someone to ask where something is or if they have more in the back at Walmart is near impossible. You used to could walk into a place like a Radio Shack and find extremely knowable staff to pick their brain. I find most retail employees simply don't give a sh*t and maybe that's because there is no incentive like a tip. Or, is it because of the extremely low wages? Or, is it just a reflection of our current society?
Mostly the last one. Also, retailers - especially corporate stores - have discovered over the past few decades that they can save huge amounts on labor by letting customers fend for themselves, and if they pass a part of that savings on to the consumer they’ll get the business anyway. Americans as a rule have proven they care way more about getting stuff as cheaply as possible and way less about things like sevice and quality.

Great service is on the wane, in general. Other than a few outliers, it’s mostly only found in high-end environments these days.

Since we've mentioned tipping several times in this thread it reminded me of a pet peeve. I find it tacky when restaurants have counter service and put a tip jar next to the register (I've even seen this at gas station convenience stores). Recently, with the advent of Square and similar payment systems - now they literally call out the customer and say "On the screen there you'll see your total, would you like me to add a tip to that amount?" Is it just me or that really annoying and rude? That being said, I do on rare occasion find myself wanting to tip the cook(s) but not the wait staff - because the food was excellent but the service was barely minimal.

My wife's biggest pet peeve is places that want tips for counter service.

I've made this point over and over...

I despise the new trend of having the cashier spin the screen around for you to add tip and sign while they stand right there.

It makes me not want to return to those places and instead give my business to those who do not put the paying customer in this very awkward position.

^^^^^^^
Yeah, not a fan of pressing customers for tips for counter service. You’ve eliminated an entire layer of labor (servers). It’s now a basic order-taking retail transaction, not one requiring recommendations, table delivery, ongoing service. You placed the customer service burden on the consumer. Passing on the remaining payroll burden is disrespectful to the customer, and you darned sure had better not be cutting the counter person’s pay anticipating customers making up the difference.

I don't find it awkward in the least. If the people at the donut shop have no problem blatantly asking if I would like them to add a tip to my total just for taking a donut out of the case and putting it in a bag, I have no problem cheerfully responding with "Nope!".

I've made this point over and over...

I despise the new trend of having the cashier spin the screen around for you to add tip and sign while they stand right there.

It makes me not want to return to those places and instead give my business to those who do not put the paying customer in this very awkward position.

Pie Junkie did this to me. All I did was go in and get a pie that was already in stock. The girl was not happy I didn't tip.

^^^^^^^
Yeah, not a fan of pressing customers for tips for counter service. You’ve eliminated an entire layer of labor (servers). It’s now a basic order-taking retail transaction, not one requiring recommendations, table delivery, ongoing service. You placed the customer service burden on the consumer. Passing on the remaining payroll burden is disrespectful to the customer, and you darned sure had better not be cutting the counter person’s pay anticipating customers making up the difference.

i don’t know. I usually tip a dollar or two for a to-go order. there’s usually a server making $3.24/hr or whatever putting that order together. it’s not like the order appeared on the counter without any labor at all.

But i would agree with most other service businesses. A great example is the groomer. I just paid you $50 to groom my dog, and now you want a tip as well? Ah, no thanks. But i’m sure a lot of folks are guilted into paying $60.

Counter service makes minimum wage or better. I tip more often than I’d like in those circumstances due to the aforementioned social pressure (I also believe there are legitimate exceptions such as for baristas, who are more like bartenders than simple order takers). The relationship between a customer and a person ringing at a counter is completely different than the one with a server or bartender, who acts as a consultant, checks your order, delivers your food, makes repeated trips to your table, and yet who is paid less than a counter person in anticipation of a tipping arrangement with the customer.

Food establishment counter jobs are great entry-level customer service or sales jobs, and they serve a valuable function for people entering the field. They provide employment for young people, or people just entering or re-entering the job market, or working part time for extra money. If someone is doing that job and wants to improve their earnings, the next step is (and should be) either moving into supervision or moving into a service field with more earnings potential, such as a server at a full-service establishment. It’s an aspirational job, and tipping makes no more sense here than it makes to tip the cashier at Wal-Mart or CVS.

Come to think of it, the rise of tipping expectations for counter service could be one of the reasons for such a stretched labor market for full-service restaurants. If I make a higher base wage, have fewer responsibilities AND still get tipped just mindlessly ringing up sales, why on earth would I want to wait tables for similar money? Especially if I’m not a very motivated person?

"Counter service" does not mean a to go order, it means like at Subway, you go up to the counter, order at the counter, receive your food at the counter, and pay at the counter. The whole transaction spans a course of maybe 6-10 feet, nobody brings you anything. Or at most fast food joints, you place your order at the counter. The definition of counter service very often includes the phrase "gratuities not expected".

Or to put it another way, you go to McDonald's, stare at a large plastic board ten feet in the air, then tell the person in front of you what you would like to order. You pay right then and they hand it to you. It might be there or to go, but either way, that's counter service. Or you go to S&B, sit down, the server brings you menus and takes your drink order, then returns for your food order, then brings you the food, then brings you the check. That's table service. You have the option to call ahead and place an order to go at S&B, and you're not getting table service, but it's not counter service either, it's a to go order. If you feel you should tip, feel free, but it is still a different animal than counter service.

^^^^^^^
Agreed. In most cases it is an apples and oranges comparison. And in pretty much all cases a quick-service or fast-casual restaurant pays a counter person 2-3 times what a full service restaurant pays a server. Night and day differences.

I’ve brought this up before. But it occurred to me that I always see young people working counter jobs. When I go to a chain sandwich shop, just about everyone sans the manager is under 20. Back to my recurring point: within the last couple decades, all the fast food “McJobs” are all filled by adults in their 30s, 40s, 50s. I can’t tell you the last time I drove through a McDonald’s or Arby’s, even picked up a pizza, and saw a teenager. And the workers are absolutely miserable, they wear faces like people waiting in the emergency room. What up with that?

The only exception I can think of are quick serve chicken places like Caine’s and chick fil a. Although I suspect the latter recruits labor from church youth groups.

I know this thread has been about the restaurant industry - but the title seems to invite a broader scope - I personally see more laxed or outright terrible service within the retail market, as opposed to when going out to eat. Trying to find someone to ask where something is or if they have more in the back at Walmart is near impossible. You used to could walk into a place like a Radio Shack and find extremely knowable staff to pick their brain. I find most retail employees simply don't give a sh*t and maybe that's because there is no incentive like a tip. Or, is it because of the extremely low wages? Or, is it just a reflection of our current society?

You are comparing people with two very different wages. Walmart is paying the employees min wage or just a bit above. Radio Shack is/was paying their employees $9+ plus they are well trained. It all has to do with how much they are making. If I was making min wage with very little to if any benefits which most fast food, most mom and pops, and most Walmart employees endure, then they are not going to put pride in their job. I have seen a lot of posts stating that servers make a lot of money, and they can, but there are also slow times during the week and day where they are lucky to see a couple of tables. So they could work a 6 hour shift and walk home with $30 at best after they have tipped out busboys, and whomever else the employer had them tip out. (One restaurant I worked at, the cooks got a small percentage of that tip.) I think if you pay a person a fair wage, give them benefits, and train them well it can pay off in the way they perform at their job, they tend to stick around longer, and that in the long run saves the employer money in having to spend time hiring and training new staff all the time. Sure there are going to be lazy employees, but I know I sure feel good when I feel like a company treats their employees right and makes them feel more than they are just cattle.

You are comparing people with two very different wages. Walmart is paying the employees min wage or just a bit above. Radio Shack is/was paying their employees $9+ plus they are well trained. It all has to do with how much they are making. If I was making min wage with very little to if any benefits which most fast food, most mom and pops, and most Walmart employees endure, then they are not going to put pride in their job. I have seen a lot of posts stating that servers make a lot of money, and they can, but there are also slow times during the week and day where they are lucky to see a couple of tables. So they could work a 6 hour shift and walk home with $30 at best after they have tipped out busboys, and whomever else the employer had them tip out. (One restaurant I worked at, the cooks got a small percentage of that tip.) I think if you pay a person a fair wage, give them benefits, and train them well it can pay off in the way they perform at their job, they tend to stick around longer, and that in the long run saves the employer money in having to spend time hiring and training new staff all the time. Sure there are going to be lazy employees, but I know I sure feel good when I feel like a company treats their employees right and makes them feel more than they are just cattle.

That's a complete crap excuse in my book. And, unfortunately, it's an excuse a lot of people rely on to excuse poor service or justify themselves in giving poor service.

I worked at Walmart back in the day and I also worked in the food industry. I also had to support myself on those jobs as I moved out of the house very early. Walmart, even as a teen, didn't pay enough to make my rent, utilities, car payment, groceries, and allow me to have a life - let alone go to college. I started the food industry as a waiter and quickly learned I could make better cash as a bartender so I went in that direction. All my life I've worked different, multiple at the same time, traditional and untraditional jobs.

When I worked at Walmart I couldn't understand the employees who came to work with a scowl and left with the same scowl. They'd complain all day about the pay, yet they showed up in wrinkled clothes, usually late and with an attitude - yet they expected more from their employer. I wanted more money and hours and I also didn't want to be miserable. Most of that can at least be somewhat addressed in our own attitude. I find it isn't hard to shine in your employer's eyes when you are surrounded by lazy and unpleasant co-workers.

I like to use my wife as an example of what doing your best at work regardless of your pay or benefits can lead to... As a young single mom she worked at Mathis Brothers (was able to buy a house and take care of her child on close to minimum wage). Her attitude was so good that she was hired away by a recruiter that often helped Mathis Brother's with their temporary and permanent staffing needs. From that job she was again hired away by a company she often placed temporary and permanent employees with. From there she was once again approached by someone her employer did business with and hired away from them. She's never applied for a job in the last 25+ years because her attitude shined and she was recruited away. There is no excuse for poor service or attitude simply because you want your current employer to pay you or give you more. ZERO EXCUSE.

It’s a mindset that many have: “****ty” jobs deserve ****ty attitude.

When I was 17 and working at McDonalds we had a lot of folks with bad attitudes putting in minimal efforts, and when you would call them out the excuse would be “it’s just a job at McDonalds”. I’ve always felt that even a McJob reflects more on me than it does on the corporate uniform, and I’ve always taken pride in doing my best at whatever job I was doing. In the end my managers and the owner noticed, and I was one of the few people working front and back, got frequent raises, and quickly trained the new staff.

It’s a mindset that many have: “****ty” jobs deserve ****ty attitude.

When I was 17 and working at McDonalds we had a lot of folks with bad attitudes putting in minimal efforts, and when you would call them out the excuse would be “it’s just a job at McDonalds”. I’ve always felt that even a McJob reflects more on me than it does on the corporate uniform, and I’ve always taken pride in doing my best at whatever job I was doing. In the end my managers and the owner noticed, and I was one of the few people working front and back, got frequent raises, and quickly trained the new staff.

Exactly! The difference in attitudes when driving through a McD's or a Chick-Fil-A is remarkable. Same often goes for the attitudes of the staff at a On-Cue vs. a 7-11. On Cue's are clean, well staffed and the employees always seem happy or at least acknowledge your presence. Most often at 7-11 the single employee standing behind the register in a dirty environment appears unpleasant or simply doesn't acknowledge you - and the 7-11 employee is making more than the On Cue employee! (*FYI - I worked at 7-11 too back in the day).

I actually agree with tfvc, but I come at it from a different angle. I don't see it as crappy people making crappy excuses for a crappy job, I see it as human beings who may or may not have started the job bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, but have been beaten down by horrible mismanagement. McDonald's and Walmart are not seen as crappy jobs because management makes it an enjoyable place to work. I was literally just last night reading an article about McDonald's and this issue...franchises are having an issue hiring people because of the horrible reputation. This does not just apply to crappy McJobs though, right here in OKC we have a couple places that have the reputation of working their people to the point of exhaustion and then another 20 hours on top of that. They actually try to spin this as a selling point, "we work hard and we play hard", and to make up for working some people literally into the grave they bring in booze and get everyone drunk a couple times a year. That's not a business, that's a frat house, and it takes a really special person to go into that environment with a smile and go home at night with that smile intact.

tl;dr: Yes, some people are pieces of crap who will be miserable no matter what. But so are some jobs, and no amount of "it is what you make of it" is going to change the fact that you have three managers giving you three conflicting instructions. You're effed regardless of what you do, so many people just say eff it. I agree with what was said, I know I personally feel better when my employer has my back as opposed to my employer stabbing me in the back.

Exactly! The difference in attitudes when driving through a McD's or a Chick-Fil-A is remarkable. Same often goes for the attitudes of the staff at a On-Cue vs. a 7-11. On Cue's are clean, well staffed and the employees always seem happy or at least acknowledge your presence. Most often at 7-11 the single employee standing behind the register in a dirty environment appears unpleasant or simply doesn't acknowledge you - and the 7-11 employee is making more than the On Cue employee! (*FYI - I worked at 7-11 too back in the day).

Some may say McDonald's and Chick-Fil-A is the same job. Others say McDonald's actively beats down employees while Chick-Fil-A actively builds them up. I think this goes a very long way in explaining the difference. Likewise with 7-Eleven and On Cue. When I lived in MO I was actually shocked the first time I walked into a QT. I know someone who works there and she's quite happy. I asked her why there were so many people staffed at any given location at any given time and she gave a really logical answer. One person simply can not, can NOT, man the register, clean the store, stock the shelves, clean the parking lot, empty the trash, clean/stock the restrooms, and so on. You can have the brightest, shiniest attitude in the world, and one person simply can't do the work of five. Period. On Cue appears to have the same philosophy.

You yourself said it, in the case where there is one person, they're miserable and surrounded by filth. Why? Because no attitude in the world is going to push the mop while operating the cash register. And who didn't staff enough people to operate the store properly? It wasn't the surly person...he's surly for the same reason. Management, or lack thereof.

...McDonald's and Walmart are not seen as crappy jobs because management makes it an enjoyable place to work. ...

Since when? I have worked for both when I was younger. It's probably become fairly obvious, I changed jobs a lot when I was younger. Why? If I didn't find the job enjoyable then I moved on. Or, it served it's purpose at that time and the need was no longer there (like a second job or a filler job to makes ends meet). Neither McD's or Walmart made coming to work fun or enjoyable - but, they weren't out to get you or stab you in the back either. There were no employee parties, no team building, nothing. But, they did make their expectations clear. I also knew that if I just met those expectations (show up to work on time, put a smile on your face, do your job) and hopefully exceeded those expectations then that would make my interactions with management so much better. Your job - much like your life - IS WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT. But that's just my opinion. You've gotta have focus and desire though and I find a lot of people in these types of jobs lack one or both.

To jump in your guys' conversation, I think you're looking at it from different perspectives. Yes, as BBates said, an individual can make the best of what he has and keep a positive attitude and work hard regardless of what environment the employer provides... But that employee probably won't stick around for very long as they'll have opportunities beyond Wal*Mart or McDonald's.

But, as stile99 is saying, a business that takes care of their employees, staffs well, and maintains a positive environment will be able to better retain those employees such as BBates while also elevating less self-motivated people into better employees.

The difference between you guys, in my mind, is just the difference in perspective from an individual level or a business level.

I've made this point over and over...

I despise the new trend of having the cashier spin the screen around for you to add tip and sign while they stand right there.

It makes me not want to return to those places and instead give my business to those who do not put the paying customer in this very awkward position.

My only gripe with Sunnyside diner is that the waiter brings a tablet to your table, swipes your card right there, and turns it around and holds it while you fill out the tip section and sign with your finger. HATE HATE HATE.

7-11 seems so dependent on location as well. The store near me is always clean, staff is always happy and friendly, and I’ve never had any issues there.

Neither McD's or Walmart made coming to work fun or enjoyable

Yes, that was my point. It's a fun little quirk in the English language that can make a statement both a positive and a negative. I thought I had made my point clear, but perhaps I do need to expand on it.

"McDonald's and Walmart are not seen as crappy jobs because management makes it an enjoyable place to work"...expanding on that, since they ARE seen as crappy jobs by many, it stands to reason that the second half of the statement is also inverted, management does NOT make it an enjoyable place to work. I'm beyond pleased that you choose to see the positive in life, that's a dying trend. That said, it doesn't change the fact that when McDonald's hires one person to work the drive thru, AND make the fries, AND mop the restrooms, AND replenish the drink machine, ALL AT THE SAME TIME, some have a bit of difficulty seeing the rainbow. Then when you add too many managers (none of whom seem inclined to do any of the work) who yell at you while you're making the fries because the restroom isn't getting mopped, and yell at you when you're mopping the restroom because the drive thru isn't being tended, and yell at you when you're at the drive thru because the drink machine needs a refill, even the most positive person eventually gets to the point where they just give up.

If you really are unaware of the meme, google 'McDonald's ice cream machine broken". The reason it's famously 'broken' so much is it stops working when it needs to be cleaned. The reason it is going uncleaned is not because they have too much staff.

7-11 seems so dependent on location as well. The store near me is always clean, staff is always happy and friendly, and I’ve never had any issues there.

How many people are working there when you go in? The reason I ask is the 'new' 7-Eleven in Mustang is much the same way. Clean, brightly lit, and for the most part the employees are friendly. Notice I said employees, plural? That's because whenever I go in, there's at least three. That said, before it moved across the street, the old location was staffed by one person and was generally dirty as hell.

How many people are working there when you go in? The reason I ask is the 'new' 7-Eleven in Mustang is much the same way. Clean, brightly lit, and for the most part the employees are friendly. Notice I said employees, plural? That's because whenever I go in, there's at least three. That said, before it moved across the street, the old location was staffed by one person and was generally dirty as hell.

Usually only 1 or 2 people working whenever I go there.

All this talk about corporate environment but still no one has commented on the shift in AGE, I had a ton of jobs through high school and college. And there always seemed to be another job that was a step in a different direction. Auto parts, grocery stores, fast food, pizza, 7-11, the list goes on. The corporate environment hardly varied from McDonald’s to Oreilly’s auto parts, BUT the jobs were all held by young people. Now I see all those same jobs being filled by adults. Adults trying to raise families and put roofs over said heads with $7.25-$9/hr. It’s insane. When I worked those jobs it was just to earn beer money, drive a boss mustang, and split a 3 bedroom house right off campus with 3 other men and Robs deadbeat girlfriend who liked to eat my cinny toast crunch.

The last time I went in an auto parts store it was around 8:30pm and the cashier (I guess about 45yo) is tucking her young children over the PHONE. I know too many people my age who rely on dual incomes just to survive.

Is it just a generational think that people that age didn’t gruaduate from Sonic Drive-in University and get a blue collar job? Most of my non-college educated friends work at tinker or a blue collar office job or energy or construction and do quite well. Meanwhile it seems like every millennial coming down the line has a rinky dink bachelors in communications, phycology, and hospitality are leapfrogging older people with real world experience all the while never having a McJob, their entitlement scores are through the roof.

I don’t know if any of my rhetoric makes a point. But if I were in my mid 30’s, like I am now, and still worked a job that paid $9 AND I had to deal with the general public, because let’s not forget that the general public, especially when they expect something from a minimum wage employee, is horrible. If I were in that situation, I would be a miserable slob that hated you too.

let’s not forget that the general public, especially when they expect something from a minimum wage employee, is horrible.

That's an excellent point. When there's an entire fad based on a-holes posting videos of throwing **** at you, that can't be good for the morale.

Word. I worked at McDs through high school. While I was in 4 AP courses, band, and ROTC. If I had a nickel for every time someone talked down to me or told me if I applied myself in life I wouldn't be working there... Well I wouldn't be rich but I would have a free dinner or two.

I actually agree with tfvc, but I come at it from a different angle. I don't see it as crappy people making crappy excuses for a crappy job, I see it as human beings who may or may not have started the job bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, but have been beaten down by horrible mismanagement. McDonald's and Walmart are not seen as crappy jobs because management makes it an enjoyable place to work. I was literally just last night reading an article about McDonald's and this issue...franchises are having an issue hiring people because of the horrible reputation. This does not just apply to crappy McJobs though, right here in OKC we have a couple places that have the reputation of working their people to the point of exhaustion and then another 20 hours on top of that. They actually try to spin this as a selling point, "we work hard and we play hard", and to make up for working some people literally into the grave they bring in booze and get everyone drunk a couple times a year. That's not a business, that's a frat house, and it takes a really special person to go into that environment with a smile and go home at night with that smile intact.

tl;dr: Yes, some people are pieces of crap who will be miserable no matter what. But so are some jobs, and no amount of "it is what you make of it" is going to change the fact that you have three managers giving you three conflicting instructions. You're effed regardless of what you do, so many people just say eff it. I agree with what was said, I know I personally feel better when my employer has my back as opposed to my employer stabbing me in the back.

This. So much this. If an employer doesn't make me feel like I'm a valued member of the team, then why should I value that employer? A large number of low-wage jobs don't do or offer anything to engender any loyalty from their employees, and a McJob is a McJob. I have a pretty strong work ethic and can soldier through and do the job I was hired to do (as I did when I worked for Arby's), but it's so much easier, so much more rewarding, and so much less soul crushing when your employer has your back and wants to see you succeed. I worked for the company I'm pretty sure you're referencing here, and you're right... That place was super stressful to work for. I'm happy for the experience I got while working there but... yeah, especially towards the end of my employment there, I did not leave that building with a smile at the end of my shift. Their turnover was unreal...

I agree. I think McDs, if we're gonna pick on them, has changed. Back in the 80s and 90s most of the stores in OK were corporate owned. They had a large office on NW Expressway. There was a strong career path, and the benefits were great. My father, after our grocery chain went under, started as an assistant manager and eventually moved to corporate. The pay was very good for store managers and you got company cars, stock, etc. The goal was always to grow you into a corporate position, or to help you build enough stock to eventually buy your own franchise. That was Ray Crocks growth model.

Now all the stores in OK as far as I know are franchises, and they close the corporate offices here a decade ago. How much investment will an employee have in a job with no opportunities?

Back to tipping etiquette for a bit. I've always appreciated these great words of wisdom:

Dwight Schrute: Why tip someone for a job I'm capable of doing myself? I can deliver food, I can drive a taxi, I can and do cut my own hair. I did, however, tip my urologist. Because I am unable to pulverize my own kidney stones.

Almost every day, I see obvious examples of how strained the service industry is in OKC, and that trend seems to be accelerating.


Recently, I went to a newish restaurant and sat at the bar. I won't name it but it's part of a respected local restaurant group.

I'm not sure how to word this without seeming judgmental, but the woman behind the bar was missing most her teeth, was quite overweight, had a profound limp... And by far worst of all, a persistent hacking cough.

At another local place -- part of another restaurant group that I particularly like -- our waitress was super skinny, her teeth were black and she was so uncomfortable she would not look us in the eye and seemed to have trouble comprehending our order. When the food was served, mine was completely missing and she explained she didn't understand that I had ordered something (!?). Not a big deal, I patiently explained what I wanted and it ultimately arrived... With a woman who I believe was the manager who basically berated this poor young lady while she was standing there and offered to comp my meal.


I think we have now reached full crisis status. And there are a lot more places -- including some large chain operations -- set to open soon with tons more in the pipeline.

And this is what you see in the FRONT of the house. Imagine what’s going on in the kitchen!

So how do we go about fixing this? Not like we can manufacture people (or pay for dental work for EVERYONE). Just curious what the solution to this crisis is.

The better places are just going to have to pay better to recruit and keep decent staff.

And keep creating opportunities for advancement.


I also think we the consumer will be paying more as a result of all this, which is fine as long as you get decent service.

Bubble. OKC's food service & hospitality industry has been in a bubble for quite a while, and Pete's post this morning exemplifies why. Underscoring that is the new warehouse-to-restaurant conversion at 19-23 NE 6th Street as reported by OKCTalk this morning. I'm curious where the capital comes from for these businesses. Banks traditionally wouldn't touch a new restaurant or bar, so the money came from family, friends and fools. Does it still? Do people see all of these new restaurants and think, "I've got to get in while it's hot," and offer to invest money?

I don't welcome the eventual shake-out, but it's coming.

^

Almost all local restaurant and bars are funded by selling shares to local investors.

Hal Smith has an elaborate model and pro forma for this and basically uses it for every single new place they open. Variations on that model are used by other restaurant and bar owners here, as I've seen them floating around.

Pretty much all the OKC restaurant groups go this route.

Yep private fundraising and they also use it as a good carrot for someone moving up the ladder into manager roles. They will either make you a part owner with your promotion as a bonus or offer the opportunity to buy shares in your store. Which is great for all involved. Someone with some skin in the game will treat that restaurant as their own rather than someone only simply on salary. The restaurant’s problems are their problems, not just the company’s.

This situation is happening in many parts of the country. This is a symptom of an economy reaching full employment and can only be changed by more workers or higher wages. Employers have resisted paying them throughout this economic boom but are going to be forced to.

This brings up what source is there for new employees? l can tell you that as a long-tenured employee for my firm, there is an effort to deliberately "dumb down" the employee ranks by pushing customers to on-line sources and trying to get by with 25 year olds for roles that take years to become proficient. l know numerous other people in my age group who are being replaced by younger people or being given unrealistic goals because of tenure, told they are underperforming, then being replaced by younger people.

It's reasonable to understand older, more seasoned, more tenured employees are going to be paid more and cost more, but workers who still have years to work are being forced to leave before they are ready. The consequence is employers hiring ignorant, impatient young people who don't have customer service skills or employers hiring the lowest common denominator. The alternative? One is those older workers who just got let go because they are more expensive and not valued for their experience and skills. Thats why you see some older folks in roles teens used to fill. Another? Import your labor - or export out of the country.

Lol I just wanna know where you’re going Pete. I probably hit a lot of the same spots you do and have experienced nothing even remotely close to that.

Maybe it’s just my devilishly good looks

It is the same issue here in Denver, the Post, Westword and Eater-Denver have all had articles about staffing shortages in recent months with new places opening weekly. In Midland a couple of weeks ago most places (including Walmart) are advertising starting wages in the 11-12/hr range. Oil field or energy industry service work is advertising over 20/hr starting.

^^^^^^^^
This is true but also due to training as much as ongoing oversight. Hal Smith has a very rigorous training program. Not sure about Jimmy's Egg. I've talked about this quite a bit with the general manager of Mickey Mantle's, who is a friend. That is a place where the service has not slipped in 18 years, despite several GM changes and most of their management staff over the years getting their own stores or otherwise moving on. Yet they never miss a beat, and it is in large part because they invest so heavily up front in training. A server there won't interact directly with a customer until a couple of weeks of training, and an experienced bartender from somewhere else always starts on the floor and has to work their way back behind the bar.
Kirby's is known for their level of service, to maintain the same level of service at MM in comparison to their Texas locations was very important to the owners.

^^^^^^^^
Yep. I’ve gotten to know the owners of the Kirby’s group a bit over the years (strong Oklahoma ties, by the way), and the guy who is in charge of it all is a longtime friend, who served as the first GM of Mickey’s for years. In fact they have actually for many years considered the OKC Mickey’s location to be their flagship/signature store, despite having been founded in Dallas and having a number of Texas locations.

There is no company I am aware of in OKC that puts such a focus on service excellence; none. I’ve had many conversations about it with past GMs and the now longtime-present GM, who is a close friend of mine.

Although just like anywhere else, employees move back and forth between restaurant groups, the staff longevity in that one is incredible. And I think it’s worth noting that one of Hal Smith’s main corporate trainers (HSRG is one of the best examples for training locally) spent years at Mickey’s (and fair to point out was at HSRG before that).

Went to a newer Hal Smith concept last night. The whole place felt out of sync, very unusual for a HS place. The wait staff was friendly enough and service was fine, but it felt like all of them were very new to the profession. It was quite eye opening since I have been used to a type of service from most Hal Smith places. Plus it was very empty for dinner time, I hope they can make it.

Went to a newer Hal Smith concept last night. The whole place felt out of sync, very unusual for a HS place. The wait staff was friendly enough and service was fine, but it felt like all of them were very new to the profession. It was quite eye opening since I have been used to a type of service from most Hal Smith places. Plus it was very empty for dinner time, I hope they can make it.

Worthy Cook,
So, what restaurant are you talking about? Their Irish Pub. I would be interested in knowing since my grandson works there (making some money while going to UCO).
C. T.