"Rednecks, White Socks and Blue Ribbon Beer" with a Forrest Gump voiceover: "Life is like a box of hillbillies and aggies you always know what you will get unless you are a complete hipster moron." (This is more fun than a barrel of Howard Cosells, Don Imuses and a couple of Toreas (obscure reference to a dude who didn't like being railroaded) tossed in for good measure. =~)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvLtNBm1yyA

In the spirit of the thinly disguised, generally biased "one-upsmanship" involved in this here situation . . . How about a cage fight between Hillary C. and Mary F. over how a BubbaMomma is supposed to defend her cubs against an onslaught of renegade "bikers" on a Country Road? (please note that no politics nor anything remotely political stuff was involved in this post nor in the previously posted madcap fracas in question nor any of the commentary applied thereto. I'm nearly certain that there is a word for it in Latin that only doctors and lawyers know). So . . . Here is the REAL mystery: Was Bubba 1, driver of the offended and offending vehicle, actually so stupid as to repeatedly punch a punk wearing a motorcycle helmet/faceguard? If so . . . I bet his hand still hurts. Rules of the Road. Don't forget 'em. [insert John Denver vid, "Take Me Home Country Roads" avoid the fact that he was referring to West Virginia rather than rural Oklahoma].

Shouldn't Betsy DeVos be involved in that bear cage match to protect the young school kids with guns, or from guns, from bears with guns or knives or something? In any case, I just hope everyone was able to make it back home after this road trip in time to feed their pigs and chickens, bubbas in trucks included.

Shouldn't Betsy DeVos be involved in that bear cage match to protect the young school kids with guns, or from guns, from bears with guns or knives or something? In any case, I just hope everyone was able to make it back home after this road trip in time to feed their pigs and chickens, bubbas in trucks included.

Point well taken. Yet, isn't Betsy DeVos already scheduled to get with Ms. Palin and figure out how to slap some sense into that Lil Korean miscreant in order to agree that a motorcycle race at Hallet Motor Speedway--not far from the former Arlex Fireworks Factory--a visit to Woolaroc and some decent BBQ in the vicinity of Bartlesville, beats alternative versions of history? And herstory? Word on the street has it that Ree Drummond might appear as a referee or judge.
=~) [insert old Waylon Jennings Tune: "Just Good Ol' Boys."]

Shouldn't Betsy DeVos be involved in that bear cage match to protect the young school kids with guns, or from guns, from bears with guns or knives or something? In any case, I just hope everyone was able to make it back home after this road trip in time to feed their pigs and chickens, bubbas in trucks included.

True that . . .
Right now, I'm in the middle of makin' some homemade pork posole and enjoyin' a decent cigar (after the traditional tornado siren test) . The last thing on MY mind is confrontin' a Redneck in overalls, while ridin' a pissant scooter, with the overall dude shootin' a shotgun on the outskirts of Podunk America. De Veras?

Rocket Science and Calculus Ain't Involved with none of this here goofyness

All 3 are charged with a felony.

http://newsok.com/felony-charges-filed-against-three-men-in-pawnee-county-road-rage-violence/article/5564654

Wiseley, 60, has been charged with felony robbery with a weapon, assault and battery with a dangerous weapon in connection with the attacks.

Russell Watkins, 30, faces charges of accessory to robbery with a weapon and misdemeanor assault and battery. Wyman Randall Watkins, 34, was charged with assault and battery with a deadly weapon, a shotgun.

Investigators said Wiseley also faces a child neglect charge because juveniles were in his pickup during the attack.

Super classy dude.

Imagine the total cost to patrol, arrest, have court dates and incarcerate Wiseley over the last few decades. And that sum is getting ready to go much higher.

I'll be taking bets on convictions...

I'll be taking bets on convictions...

The best I can do to get in the head of a Pawnee County juror is to look at the comments on social media. Especially by folks who claim to know the men involved in the attack. It would seem to me that you could at least hang any Pawnee County jury on the "sumbich had it comin'" argument which could be presented as defense of self or others, you at least have a ball game. If this goes to trial, it'll be as long as 2 years from now if everyone makes bail.

Considering more than 90% of those charged take a plea deal, very unlikely this will go to trial.

2 of them can probably avoid jail time but probably not Wiseley given the more serious nature of his crimes and his lengthy record.

...you could at least hang any Pawnee County jury on the "sumbich had it comin'" argument which could be presented as defense of self or others, you at least have a ball game...

This is of course the basis of argument for everyone defending the gun and knife whoopass club and trying to assign equal blame to the motorcyclists. This despite the fact that there has yet to be a shred of evidence emerge that shows the motorcyclists doing anything worse than riding slowly next to a driver on an unstriped road and yelling at him while getting as bad as he was getting. I'd venture to say many people on this board and elsewhere have let their anger get the better of them to the point of exchanging angry words with another driver. If that is the litmus test for deserving felony assault at the end of a shotgun or the point of a knife the world is a much worse place than I thought.

By the way, what happened to the turned-in 45 minute video that was supposed to exonerate the three bubbas? It obviously exists, and law enforcement has surely viewed it by now, so it seems that unless more charges are filed the bubbas are indeed the bad guys, at least in the eyes of the law.

2 of them can probably avoid jail time but probably not Wiseley given the more serious nature of his crimes and his lengthy record.

Wiseley has enough money to get $100,000 bail, so I'm sure he can afford an attorney. As you say, he's probably not likely to get a great offer, he's charged with violent crimes, so that requires 85% of the time actually be served. He's 60 and appears to be in poor health. My money is on him going to trial unless he gets some sort of sweetheart deal.


his is of course the basis of argument for everyone defending the gun and knife whoopass club and trying to assign equal blame to the motorcyclists. This despite the fact that there has yet to be a shred of evidence emerge that shows the motorcyclists doing anything worse than riding slowly next to a driver on an unstriped road and yelling at him while getting as bad as he was getting. I'd venture to say many people on this board and elsewhere have let their anger get the better of them to the point of exchanging angry words with another driver. If that is the litmus test for deserving felony assault at the end of a shotgun or the point of a knife the world is a much worse place than I thought.

The Bubbas are entitled to a jury of their peers. That means people from Pawnee County. Fortunately for the Bubbas, they're going to have at least one witness (the lady in the truck) who will testify on their behalf. No way do they put Wiseley on the stand with all of his priors. I'm not saying that the sumich had it comin, but I do think that for a jury in Pawnee County who probably all have some idea who the defendants are and have their own biases, the sumitch had it comin defense isn't an impossible strategy.

By the way, what happened to the turned-in 45 minute video that was supposed to exonerate the three bubbas? It obviously exists, and law enforcement has surely viewed it by now, so it seems that unless more charges are filed the bubbas are indeed the bad guys, at least in the eyes of the law.

If the investigation is ongoing, it's not subject to the Open Records Act.

But we'll see it eventually.

...The Bubbas are entitled to a jury of their peers. That means people from Pawnee County. Fortunately for the Bubbas, they're going to have at least one witness (the lady in the truck) who will testify on their behalf. No way do they put Wiseley on the stand with all of his priors. I'm not saying that the sumich had it comin, but I do think that for a jury in Pawnee County who probably all have some idea who the defendants are and have their own biases, the sumitch had it comin defense isn't an impossible strategy.
Oh, I totally got what you meant. My point was only that, again, the false equivalency people are trying to assign to the parties is astounding based upon the evidence or lack thereof. And, barring serious charges being brought against the motorcyclists I would lean toward lack thereof.

If the investigation is ongoing, it's not subject to the Open Records Act.

But we'll see it eventually.
Yes, didn't expect to see it until after the case is resolved.

BREAKING NEWS: A man has turned himself in after an arrest warrant was issued for the road rage incident near Maramec last week. Randall Watkins (pictured below) was booked in moments ago. Sheriff Mike Waters says Randall Watkins was in the red truck and armed with a shotgun in the viral video of the attack.
He has been charged with robbery with a weapon, assault and battery with a deadly weapon and knowingly concealing stolen property.
Waters has confirmed to us that he has seen the second video obtained on Friday and, in his opinion, he said, the driver of the dark-colored truck, Russell "Rusty" Watkins, was the instigator of what turned into a beating and robbery. The sheriff says it was apparent on the second video that Rusty Watkins started things by trying to cut the motorcycles off -- before they were beaten, threatened with weapons, one had a knife held to his throat, and another was robbed of a camera, the sheriff said.
Paul Wiseley was the first arrest last week and he
bonded out immediately.
Court records show Russell "Rusty" Watkins has been charged as an accessory, but he has not been taken into custody yet.
At this time, Waters doesn't expect any charges to come against the college students who were on the motorcycles. We'll have more in the paper tomorrow. You can view the viral video in the link below in the comments. The second video has not been made public at this point, only investigators have seen it.

https://www.facebook.com/clevelandamerican/

Sheriff said in his opinion truck driver started it, so whatever the bikers did after that, before the stop, before the beat down, yada yada, if anything, sumbit had it coming? Or did he mean nothing else happened in the interim, no beating on the truck, cutting truck off etc?

Waters has confirmed to us that he has seen the second video obtained on Friday and, in his opinion, he said, the driver of the dark-colored truck, Russell "Rusty" Watkins, was the instigator of what turned into a beating and robbery.

The sheriff says it was apparent on the second video that Rusty Watkins started things by trying to cut the motorcycles off -- before they were beaten, threatened with weapons, one had a knife held to his throat, and another was robbed of a camera, the sheriff said.

Of course this is what happened, as I said from the very beginning.

Why else would a group of college students on small bikes be so angry with the driver in the first place?


It was so very obvious how this all went down, especially those of us who spend any time riding motorcylces or bicycles on the road, where cowardly motorists -- in a safe cocoon of metal and safety restraints and the ability to speed away and never be seen again -- often take sick pride in threatening people who could easily be maimed or killed just by cutting them off, driving way too close, or throwing something at them.

Of course this is what happened, as I said from the very beginning.

Why else would a group of college students on a bunch of small bikes be so angry with the driver in the first place?


It was so very obvious how this all went down, especially those of us who spend any time riding motorcylces or bicycles on the road, where cowardly motorists -- in a safe cocoon of metal and safety restraints -- often take sick pride in threatening lives of people who could easily be maimed or end up dead just by cutting them off, driving way too close, or throwing something at them.

Of course. Guy pulled out, cut them off, they got pissed, followed him for 14 miles, road rage all around ending with guns and knives.

The sheriff himself has basically said the other guys were completely at fault and they are the only ones facing charges, so that might be a sign to finally give up on this "they were both in the wrong" narrative.

The sheriff himself has basically said the other guys were completely at fault and they are the only ones facing charges, so that might be a sign to finally give up on this "they were both in the wrong" narrative.

You aren't in the right when you drive down the wrong side of a street next to another driver in formation with at least one of your buddies, carry on a heated conversation after following someone 14 miles. As I've said before, it isn't equivilant. They did not have it coming, so spare me.

Tell that to the sheriff and district attorney.

Good grief.

You aren't in the right when you drive down the wrong side of a street next to another driver in formation with at least one of your buddies, carry on a heated conversation after following someone 14 miles. As I've said before, it isn't equivilant. They did not have it coming, so spare me.

So who got charged or arrested ?

The next time I see a motorist driving down the road showing off their rage at another driver I'll keep in mind there are plenty who think that's A-OK, *right* as long as it doesn't end in prosecution for felony gun and knife play, or some other crime. Especailly when it's a biker raging at someone in an auto.

As Urbanized said upthread...if the shoe fits.

The next time I see a motorist driving down the road showing off their rage at another driver I'll keep in mind there are plenty who think that's A-OK, *right* as long as it doesn't end in prosecution for felony gun and knife play, or some other crime. Especailly when it's a biker raging at someone in an auto.

As Urbanized said upthread...if the shoe fits.

Driving down the wrong side of the street is *not* illegal or wrong if it's not a solid yellow line on your side (if you're passing, which they *kind of* were).

All are guilty of using extremely poor judgement. Birds of a feather sometimes collide IMO.

How the two are even comparable in level of poor judgement is simply incomprehensible.

You have to consider the outcome of the event. Is challenging someone for an act that did not harm you worth a beat down that could have cost you your life?

14131

Here's the thing: personally, I've moved past road rage and nearly always shrug off bad drivers who cut me off or whatever. That said, I think it's a fairly understandable response to yell at someone who (reportedly) came close to running you off the road and showed absolute disregard for your life. I get it, even if I would like to believe I would not have done it myself.

Once again I will make the point that the driver of the truck was ALSO screaming and gesturing through his OPEN side window. He was giving every bit as much as he was getting. So the question is - since the pickup driver was also participating in the verbal fracas - would it have been in any way defensible had the motorcycle riders dragged him out of his truck at beaten him while other motorcycle riders held his wife at gunpoint, put a knife to her throat, and stolen his property?

Again, this desperate clinging to false equivalency is absolutely crazy, but not especially surprising to me. And I don't mean that as a comment on a particular poster, I mean LOTS of people think this way if it involves motorcycles.

Write the motorcycle rider a ticket for crossing the (not visible) centerline if you must. But no way does what he did compare to the actions of the others. I'll be very interested in seeing the 45 minute video if it ever surfaces. Obviously the authorities have, and it didn't change much.

My comment (and only point I tried to make in this thread was that "All are guilty of using extremely poor judgement. " If other contributors on this forum feel otherwise that's not for me to judge.

My comment (and only point I tried to make in this thread was that "All are guilty of using extremely poor judgement. " If other contributors on this forum feel otherwise that's not for me to judge.

IMO, it seemed like you were implying the two groups were equally at fault. Which couldn't be further from the truth.

If someone cuts me off in my car on my way to Target, and I honk at them, and they then follow me to the parking lot and shoot me in a fit of road rage, did I use "poor judgement" because I should have reasonably suspected the guy to be crazy?

Two groups shouting stupid stuff at each other = two groups being stupid and using poor judgement. But when one group gets a pose together with guns and knifes and threatens death while beating someone up, the verbal stupidity stops mattering and the group that escalates becomes the stupid party.

Yeah, I don't think there is any equivilance in the actions. Not even close. Just that I would advise folks to remove themselves from a situation because you never know how it could escalate.

Yeah, I don't think there is any equivilance in the actions. Not even close. Just that I would advise folks to remove themselves from a situation because you never know how it could escalate.

Yep.

It's also very different when you are cut off on a motorcycle or bicycle. That could easily cause someone to be seriously injured or even killed.

Cut off in a car, and there is usually no physical risk whatsoever except for in the most extreme circumstances.


And a cowardly motorist who terrorizes someone on a bike does so because they know they 1) have no risk since they are in a huge cocoon of steel and 2) won't be confronted because most can't catch up to them.

As an avid cyclist, I've seen it all including having a bottle thrown at me while on a completely separate and dedicated bike path. Just goes to show the contempt many have for those on two wheels.


This thread and the others on social media have a very strong undercurrent of that type of thinking. That being slightly delayed due to 2-wheeled vehicles somehow justifies lashing out in ways where people can easily be killed. And that it's no different than a car cutting off another car, which happens all the time.

This is very different. And I'll tell you if I had the chance to confront someone who nearly killed me just for grins, I would absolutely say something to them in the hopes they would realize such cowardly acts sometimes results in being called out, because 95% of the time they know no one can do anything about it.

Bad results are evidence of bad judgement. Speaks for itself doesn't it?

I've been riding for 20 years, and still ride pretty much daily (my Harley is my only transportation). As I tell my boys, bike vs car, no matter who is in the right legally, the car always wins. Defensive riding is important (as is owning your lane). I wish they would toughen the laws in OK to protect riders but it is what it is.

Really, my only beef with cyclist is the lack of equipment that I am used to seeing in Germany (and I don't know if that is due to lack of regulation in the US or Oklahoma).

In Germany bikes are required to have a certain number and size of front/rear/side reflectors, as well as working lights of a certain brightness. The number of bikes I encounter here that are barely visible at the last possible moment is exhausting. If I'm driving at night on one of the arterial streets I pretty much always drive in the inside lane for that reason, just in case I encounter a random non-visible bike in the middle of the night. In Germany those bikes would be ticketed, and the people riding them would even get points on their license for operating an unsafe vehicle on the roadways. But even without laws people just need to be smart and make themselves more visible. You are already a small target that is easily missed, help yourself out!

Bad results are evidence of bad judgement. Speaks for itself doesn't it?

That's the basis of the "if she got raped, maybe she should have better judgement about her outfit" argument as well I think.

I've been riding for 20 years, and still ride pretty much daily (my Harley is my only transportation). As I tell my boys, bike vs car, no matter who is in the right legally, the car always wins. Defensive riding is important (as is owning your lane). I wish they would toughen the laws in OK to protect riders but it is what it is.

I worked for EMS and in the ER for many years, and there is a reason we would refer to bikes as donorcycles.

Dress for the slide, not the ride.

Really, my only beef with cyclist is the lack of equipment that I am used to seeing in Germany (and I don't know if that is due to lack of regulation in the US or Oklahoma).

In Germany bikes are required to have a certain number and size of front/rear/side reflectors, as well as working lights of a certain brightness. The number of bikes I encounter here that are barely visible at the last possible moment is exhausting. If I'm driving at night on one of the arterial streets I pretty much always drive in the inside lane for that reason, just in case I encounter a random non-visible bike in the middle of the night. In Germany those bikes would be ticketed, and the people riding them would even get points on their license for operating an unsafe vehicle on the roadways. But even without laws people just need to be smart and make themselves more visible. You are already a small target that is easily missed, help yourself out!

I'm not a full ATGAT guy but I did find reflective tape that's invisible in the day time, and put it on my helmet. And I always ride with all the headlights on. I regret buying a black helmet and my next will be white. I've read that head visibility is the most effective.

That's the basis of the "if she got raped, maybe she should have better judgement about her outfit" argument as well I think.

That old theory was debunked long ago. Her choices do matter but her clothing choice barely makes the list Choice of company she is in, choice of time of day, choice of location she is in, her mental state that might make her more vulnerable. (drugs, alcohol, etc)

If someone cuts me off in my car on my way to Target, and I honk at them, and they then follow me to the parking lot and shoot me in a fit of road rage, did I use "poor judgement" because I should have reasonably suspected the guy to be crazy?

Two groups shouting stupid stuff at each other = two groups being stupid and using poor judgement. But when one group gets a pose together with guns and knifes and threatens death while beating someone up, the verbal stupidity stops mattering and the group that escalates becomes the stupid party.
^^^^^^
This.

Yeah, yelling/cussing at someone who (reportedly) almost killed you on the road is admittedly poor judgement, but not uncommon and even a bit excusable. Beating someone while they are held at gunpoint/knifepoint - not to mention when they are not fighting back and then kicking/stomping them when they are apparently unconscious - IS uncommon, and there is ZERO legitimate comparison between the two.

Again, really hoping to see the longer video.

If someone cuts me off in my car on my way to Target, and I honk at them, and they then follow me to the parking lot and shoot me in a fit of road rage, did I use "poor judgement" because I should have reasonably suspected the guy to be crazy?

Two groups shouting stupid stuff at each other = two groups being stupid and using poor judgement. But when one group gets a pose together with guns and knifes and threatens death while beating someone up, the verbal stupidity stops mattering and the group that escalates becomes the stupid party.

Apparently we should avoid Target parking lots.

http://www.koco.com/article/suspect-in-deadly-okc-target-shooting-found-guilty-of-murder/4300858

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/dekalb-county/man-stumbles-into-target-after-being-shot-police-say/556410099

There's a reason I picked Target for the example. The shooting was actually at "my" Target.

There's a reason I picked Target for the example. The shooting was actually at "my" Target.

I wondered that as it was the first thing that popped into my mind so well played.

That old theory was debunked long ago. Her choices do matter but her clothing choice barely makes the list Choice of company she is in, choice of time of day, choice of location she is in, her mental state that might make her more vulnerable. (drugs, alcohol, etc)

This isn't an "old theory." It is a common blame-the-victim explanation that I still hear often. There is never a situation where a woman is ever at fault on any level for being raped. It doesn't matter what she was wearing, who she was with, or whether she was drinking or anything else. All blame falls on the rapist and that is the only thing the public should really scrutinize in my opinion. Of course, people should try to avoid potentially dangerous situations, but it's important to always remember being in a dangerous situation is not a crime and thus really should not be part of the public discussion. The problem is always with the perpetrator of the crime. That applies in this motorcycle case. It doesn't really matter if the motorcycle group acted stupidly (or even if they committed other crimes like crossing the center line), once the truck guy instigated violence, threatened lives, and stole property, their violence and crimes are really the only thing that matters. They stepped past serious legal lines. Before that, none of this is noteable.

There's an old axiom. There's never a horse that can't be rode and never a man that can't be thrown. I agree completely that the only fault lies on the guys pulling the guns and the knives, but its still good advice to try to avoid confrontations if possible. You never know where they'll lead.

its still good advice to try to avoid confrontations if possible. You never know where they'll lead.

and that was what I said several times. IE: bad decisions all around.

The difference is the tone of "be careful, there are idiots out there" and "you're an idiot for pissing off an idiot".

I agree with both statements. Don't see how anyone would have a problem with that. Just like on here when you argue with those who read things into your posts that were never stated by you. Frustrating to deal with and pretty much Kelroyic IMO.

The difference is the tone of "be careful, there are idiots out there" and "you're an idiot for pissing off an idiot".

An elderly pitmaster told me once "You never want to be at the place where two idiots meet." ..... Oddly enough the day of that conversation we were talking about how people drive.

Tell that to the sheriff and district attorney.

So you're perfectly okay with a group of bikers harassing a truck driver (who was obviously the instigator and in the wrong) for 14 miles? What if YOU accidentally or even unknowingly cut a biker off and 20 of them harass YOU for 14 miles?

If someone cuts me off in my car on my way to Target, and I honk at them, and they then follow me to the parking lot and shoot me in a fit of road rage, did I use "poor judgement" because I should have reasonably suspected the guy to be crazy?

Two groups shouting stupid stuff at each other = two groups being stupid and using poor judgement. But when one group gets a pose together with guns and knifes and threatens death while beating someone up, the verbal stupidity stops mattering and the group that escalates becomes the stupid party.

The bikers are the first to escalate the situation. They had 14 miles to go away.

So you're perfectly okay with a group of bikers harassing a truck driver (who was obviously the instigator and in the wrong) for 14 miles? What if YOU accidentally or even unknowingly cut a biker off and 20 of them harass YOU for 14 miles?

You don't know how long that altercation went on. And I never said I was okay with anything.

If I accidentally cut someone off and endangered their lives, I'd apologize profusely.

However I doubt anyone would harass someone in that way if it had indeed been an accident.

One man with his family. 14 bikes following his truck for 20 minutes or more. The fault he made was swinging first. If not for that I don't think he committed a crime but more video could show different.

The bikers are the first to escalate the situation. They had 14 miles to go away.

Even if true, this justifies calling the police, and maybe even brandishing a shotgun (I don't recommend this). But then holding off the rest of the group while some guy gets beat down, and another has a knife to his throat? There are limits.

What is the source for the "14 miles" and "20 minutes" that keeps being thrown around? Legitimately asking with no agenda here. I don't recall seeing it in any of the reporting. Obviously there WAS some elapsed time involved, because it allowed the pickup driver to call ahead and arrange for an ambush.