We just got an ioniq 6. It's pretty great

The lack of government-inforced charging standards allowed competition and the forces of the free market to find the best solution.

Another announcement: Rivian joining the Tesla charging network.

SAE International today [6/27/2023] announced it will standardize the Tesla-developed North American Charging Standard (NACS) connector. This will ensure that any supplier or manufacturer will be able to use, manufacture, or deploy the NACS connector on electric vehicles (EVs) and at charging stations across North America. Ford Motor Company, General Motors, Rivian, and a number of EV charging companies recently announced plans to adopt the NACS connector through adaptors or future product offerings.



SAE International Announces Standard for NACS Connector, Charging PKI and Infrastructure Reliability (https://www.sae.org/news/press-room/2023/06/sae-international-announces-standard-for-nacs-connector)

Here is the NACS doc [pdf]
North American Charging Standard: Technical Specification (thron.com) (https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Charging_Standard_Technical_ Specification_TS-0023666_HFTPKZ.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22North-American-Charging-Standard-Technical-Specification-TS-0023666.pdf%22)

Tesla resale prices are dropping faster than the value of Twiiter. Go Elon.
https://electrek.co/2023/07/11/tesla-leads-large-drop-used-electric-car-value-model-3-down-30/

Tesla resale prices are dropping faster than the value of Twiiter. Go Elon.
https://electrek.co/2023/07/11/tesla-leads-large-drop-used-electric-car-value-model-3-down-30/

Looks like the average resale price for the Model 3 is still above the base price of the Model 3 after incentives. A used Model X, however, sells for around $30k less than the base price.

Looks like the average resale price for the Model 3 is still above the base price of the Model 3 after incentives. A used Model X, however, sells for around $30k less than the base price.

So why would anybody buy used? Or buy new knowing Elon will undercut your purchazse?

I wish the EV tax credits were refundable. Since I normally get a refund every year, I would not get any of the tax credit benefit.

So why would anybody buy used? Or buy new knowing Elon will undercut your purchazse?

There is no point in buying now. Financing rates are very high, and not worth it, If used and new prices are very similar, then something is wrong. Allow the market to correct it in a year or 2, if you can hold off.

I can't imagine an auto losing 30% of its value in 1 years time is a good thing no mater how you spin it.

There is no point in buying now. Financing rates are very high, and not worth it, If used and new prices are very similar, then something is wrong. Allow the market to correct it in a year or 2, if you can hold off.

we ended up getting 4.99% over the weekend from a local dealer on a CPO hybrid suv. they didn't even fight us that hard during the negotiation; i only had to get my keys out one time.

So why would anybody buy used? Or buy new knowing Elon will undercut your purchazse?

Im not saying its good or bad. Simply stating what I found interesting from the article you posted said.

Im not advocating buying used. Unless you want to buy my car, in which case you should absolutely buy used... :P
But I own a Subaru, not a Tesla. Still, it has only lost like $7-8k in value since I bought it 5 yrs ago.

I wish the EV tax credits were refundable. Since I normally get a refund every year, I would not get any of the tax credit benefit.

I believe a non-refundable credit just means that the amount of the credit can’t exceed your overall tax liability — including the amounts you’ve paid through payroll deductions. So just because you get a tax refund doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t get some or all of the credit.

I believe a non-refundable credit just means that the amount of the credit can’t exceed your overall tax liability — including the amounts you’ve paid through payroll deductions. So just because you get a tax refund doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t get some or all of the credit.

I got the full credit for my MINI plus my usual few hundred dollar refund when I filed this time, so yes, this is the way it works (we paid in quite a bit more via pay deductions than the full tax credit).

Toyota says battery breakthrough will lead to 745-mile EVs: https://www.techspot.com/news/99308-toyota-battery-breakthrough-lead-745-mile-evs.html

Toyota says battery breakthrough will lead to 745-mile EVs: https://www.techspot.com/news/99308-toyota-battery-breakthrough-lead-745-mile-evs.html

It's more about solid state batteries. Still probably 10 years away based on the technology I've seen. By then we could have hydrogen engines competing with them. Short on the details from Toyota but hopefully they do actually have a breakthrough.

Some other positive news https://www.kten.com/story/49193303/oklahoma-lays-groundwork-for-electric-vehicle-charging-network

66 million grant to expand charging network.

Toyota is pushing it's new hydrogen combution engine breakthrough, as well. They ma be the Tesla of the late 2020's/2030's.

Yeah, but Apple users would still buy the 99 dollar version for some reason. You know because Apple!

But Samsung and Motorola are both better phones than Apple. The new Motorola razr+ flip phone is sensational. It awaits to see if the new upcoming Samsung Galaxy Z Flip 5 will be able to beat it. Apple doesn't even get into flip phones.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-reports-sequentially-lower-quarterly-gross-margin-2023-07-19/

Elon price cutting again.

Toyota is pushing it's new hydrogen combution engine breakthrough, as well. They ma be the Tesla of the late 2020's/2030's.

That would be awesome. Especially since hydrogen is produced from water and electricity and has clean emissions.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-reports-sequentially-lower-quarterly-gross-margin-2023-07-19/

Elon price cutting again.

seems awfully desperate.

seems awfully desperate.

Seems like an efficient market and competition.

Seems like an efficient market and competition.

And also desperate.

Most people that I known don't buy iPhones because they think the hardware is better. They buy it because they think the software is better.
I have no clue what the specs are on my iPhone and I don't really care. I've used Android for a while and I like iOS better, so for the foreseeable future I'll have an iPhone in my pocket.

I'll also have an ICE engine in my driveway for a while as well. I think our next purchase will be a hybrid.

And also desperate.

So any time the price on something drops, it is desperation?

The price drop on existing inventory is what allowed us to finally be able to afford a Tesla. We love it so far and have seemingly been seeing more and more of them around OKC (could just be confirmation bias though).

Toyota says battery breakthrough will lead to 745-mile EVs: https://www.techspot.com/news/99308-toyota-battery-breakthrough-lead-745-mile-evs.html

I've been reading about battery breakthroughs for all different kinds of tech for 20+ years. They all promise the moon. None have come to fruition. I eventually stopped believing them.

The problem with ev charging is that they're still thinking of it in the traditional auto sense. Don't put charging stations in 7-11s or OnCues. Put them in places where you'll already be spending a lot of time like shopping areas, restaurants, and grocery stores. You're not gonna get a 5 minute fill up at a gas station like you do with an ICE car.

I've been reading about battery breakthroughs for all different kinds of tech for 20+ years. They all promise the moon. None have come to fruition. I eventually stopped believing them.

The problem with ev charging is that they're still thinking of it in the traditional auto sense. Don't put charging stations in 7-11s or OnCues. Put them in places where you'll already be spending a lot of time like shopping areas, restaurants, and grocery stores. You're not gonna get a 5 minute fill up at a gas station like you do with an ICE car.

Or just charge them at your home or apartment, which is easily the most convenient place.

And you absolutely nailed it on the battery tech promises. It's little more than just a pump an article headline click driver almost every single time.

So any time the price on something drops, it is desperation?

lol that person thinks music being played at sport events it to drown out players cursing. They have some kind of weird thing going right now.

Pricing went absolutely bonkers the last 3 years and with commodities coming back down price decreases is normal. Tesla is essentially the only company making money on their EVs right now and they want as big of a market share as they can get.

Or just charge them at your home or apartment, which is easily the most convenient place.

...

This is the real world, sometimes you have to use a non-home charger, and more often than not, they're faster than home chargers (speaking from experience as an EV owner). And yes, companies are realizing that you need to place chargers at locations with a long "dwell time" for the driver - Electrify America has them at Walmarts, for one.

lol that person thinks music being played at sport events it to drown out players cursing. They have some kind of weird thing going right now.

Pricing went absolutely bonkers the last 3 years and with commodities coming back down price decreases is normal. Tesla is essentially the only company making money on their EVs right now and they want as big of a market share as they can get.

Wrong. The folks who were interested in EVs have bought them.

The rest of the American market has continuing objections to EV adoption, which won’t necessarily be solved by price cuts. But if you’re Musk and you want to show incremental unit growth, you don’t have a lot of options.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/americans-aren-t-buying-evs-122809686.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ 2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADZ9FLxt7dOvc7RMKgLHCNdGXVoi ihmBi56CLcAA4O2AfDRtjsT1dae0lfbuww9elTI4h5u-iXszIAYJ0y_wb0Opo8HK7Dc55fZL1y2ecXuLqABL2CDi2Q_d_F RCbdjFv1WCsBwrqpC56zAkrAIaI8_XJxC045POefbnHwEXDQ4d

https://www.valuepenguin.com/electric-vehicle-concerns-survey

Wrong. The folks who were interested in EVs have bought them.

The rest of the American market has continuing objections to EV adoption, which won’t necessarily be solved by price cuts. But if you’re Musk and you want to show incremental unit growth, you don’t have a lot of options.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/americans-aren-t-buying-evs-122809686.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ 2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADZ9FLxt7dOvc7RMKgLHCNdGXVoi ihmBi56CLcAA4O2AfDRtjsT1dae0lfbuww9elTI4h5u-iXszIAYJ0y_wb0Opo8HK7Dc55fZL1y2ecXuLqABL2CDi2Q_d_F RCbdjFv1WCsBwrqpC56zAkrAIaI8_XJxC045POefbnHwEXDQ4d

https://www.valuepenguin.com/electric-vehicle-concerns-survey

LOL. Did you even read either the articles you posted? BOTH identify high cost as the top objection people have to buying electric cars. It would seem that cutting costs would be the easiest of the controllable factors to change in order to increase adoption which is exactly why Elon appears to be doing it.

I also still think we’re years off from a mass adoption of electric vehicles but to act like Musk is cutting prices out of desperation or that everyone who wants an EV already has one is a bit absurd.

That said for EVs to cross the chasm, it will require a substantial cost reduction, much larger used inventory, electrical grid upgrades in places like California that already struggle with electricity generation, increased battery life, substantially decreased fast charging time, substantially more charging stations and either cheaper replacement batteries or batteries with a longer services life. Many issues that are slowly being worked through but no government or other entity will be able to force the transition...economics will dictate for fast it happens.

more often than not, they're faster than home chargers (speaking from experience as an EV owner).
Yeah you can't just plug it into the wall like your phone and expect a full charge in 10 minutes. You need a special charge station installed and from what I've heard, they ain't cheap.

LOL. Did you even read either the articles you posted? BOTH identify high cost as the top objection people have to buying electric cars. It would seem that cutting costs would be the easiest of the controllable factors to change in order to increase adoption which is exactly why Elon appears to be doing it.

I also still think we’re years off from a mass adoption of electric vehicles but to act like Musk is cutting prices out of desperation or that everyone who wants an EV already has one is a bit absurd.

That said for EVs to cross the chasm, it will require a substantial cost reduction, much larger used inventory, electrical grid upgrades in places like California that already struggle with electricity generation, increased battery life, substantially decreased fast charging time, substantially more charging stations and either cheaper replacement batteries or batteries with a longer services life. Many issues that are slowly being worked through but no government or other entity will be able to force the transition...economics will dictate for fast it happens.

I think an easy starting fix is get the EV battery warranty from 8 to 10 years nationally (it is 10 in California). That puts it closer to the average age of cars on the road today (13 years).

Yeah you can't just plug it into the wall like your phone and expect a full charge in 10 minutes. You need a special charge station installed and from what I've heard, they ain't cheap.

Mine ended up costing me about $400 upfront with the electrician to install it just for the electrical work, and another $350 for the charger itself. But also got a tax credit of almost all of it back, so it was a minimal expense in the end.

I think an easy starting fix is get the EV battery warranty from 8 to 10 years nationally (it is 10 in California). That puts it closer to the average age of cars on the road today (13 years).

My MINI EV battery is probably going to last 21 years, according to the type it is and the history of the cars it's been installed in.

For those of you with a Tesla how does it hold up in the heat. My uber driver last week in Vegas said battery life gets shorten a lot. I told him we drove out from OKC he said with these hot temps he wouldn't do a road trip with his Tesla. He wants a Hybrid for his next car. Now it is hotter out there but how does it do in the OKC heat

It also seems Oklahoma will be looking into a mileage based tax going forward and they are launching a new tool(linked in the article I’ll post) where you can see how much it’d cost you. Personally at this point I’d just rather see the gas tax raised a bit. Something like this would make more sense in states that have more alternative fuel vehicles.

https://ktul.com/news/local/new-study-explores-alternative-to-state-gas-tax

With these programs, I always wonder how they know how far you have driven and where those miles are. Like, if I go on a road trip, most of the miles wouldn't be in Oklahoma. So it can't be a straight odometer reading to determine. Then there are only two choices- self-report or have a tracker in your vehicle.

With these programs, I always wonder how they know how far you have driven and where those miles are. Like, if I go on a road trip, most of the miles wouldn't be in Oklahoma. So it can't be a straight odometer reading to determine. Then there are only two choices- self-report or have a tracker in your vehicle.

Itseems to me they would have to go back to either inspection stations or an electricity tax.

What states have been looking into is either having some kind of GPS device in your car. I imagine you would pay a penalty tax if you refuse the device. The digital license plates you can get in California already have GPS built into them.

Itseems to me they would have to go back to either inspection stations or an electricity tax.

or during your annual tag renewal. that is what i hate about this model. there really isn't a way to charge out of state drivers. currently, if they fill up with gas in oklahoma, they are paying some of those taxes for the roads they are using.

What states have been looking into is either having some kind of GPS device in your car. I imagine you would pay a penalty tax if you refuse the device. The digital license plates you can get in California already have GPS built into them.

and this is what happens when you have non-tech people involved in the decisions about things like this. GPS spoofing is very easy. so someone can just show their car not moving for a few days a week. if you had no mileage it might look suspicious. but if you say only had it track your mileage a few times a week, then you could cheat the state out of most of it. but i guess gps is better than just mileage, since you might not drive all of those miles in that state.

Eliminate the gas tax and charge all drivers the same per mileage due yearly with reported new tags. (tag agent walks out and looks at mileage then writes it down. If not readable then charges a flat amount fee or fine. Could do it online as a self report with picture or just trust someone?). Have semi trucks GPS tagged for mileage per state to pay a different fee since they use up more road that smaller vehicles.

Not really a fair way to do it and I don't think GPS tracking all vehicles would go over well with the population.

For those of you with a Tesla how does it hold up in the heat. My uber driver last week in Vegas said battery life gets shorten a lot. I told him we drove out from OKC he said with these hot temps he wouldn't do a road trip with his Tesla. He wants a Hybrid for his next car. Now it is hotter out there but how does it do in the OKC heat

Same issue with cold temps.

What states have been looking into is either having some kind of GPS device in your car. I imagine you would pay a penalty tax if you refuse the device. The digital license plates you can get in California already have GPS built into them.

That doesn't sound big brother like at all.

For those of you with a Tesla how does it hold up in the heat. My uber driver last week in Vegas said battery life gets shorten a lot. I told him we drove out from OKC he said with these hot temps he wouldn't do a road trip with his Tesla. He wants a Hybrid for his next car. Now it is hotter out there but how does it do in the OKC heat

There is a mode called overheat protection mode that is on by default. So if it gets too hot it cools the car and batteries automatically. People lose 5 to 7% with it on in the direct heat all day. I am guessing in vegas he is sitting out in the sun most of the day so that is pretty normal.

Just because you buy gas in a state doesn't mean you are burning all that gas in the state you buy the gas in and putting rear and tear on their roads.. I can fill up in OKC and reach any of the borders and only use 1/4 tank of gas and keep driving into another state. Or buy gas near the border and drive entirely in another state. Then there is the federal gas tax EV users aren't paying too. Should I get a rebate of my state gas tax if i don't drive all the miles in the state I buy the gas in in my ICE vehicles? See how silly it gets saying to only pay the equivalent of a state gas tax if you drive only in that state.

That doesn't sound big brother like at all.

Don't look know but there are license plate readers all over the metro, state, and other states.

or during your annual tag renewal. that is what i hate about this model. there really isn't a way to charge out of state drivers. currently, if they fill up with gas in oklahoma, they are paying some of those taxes for the roads they are using.

The mileage charge can be a supplement to the gas tax.
No reason for high mileage vehicles to subsidize gas hogs.

Could just keep things the way they are but charge $200/yr for each EV (at registration time)

Don't look know but there are license plate readers all over the metro, state, and other states.

Sure but those aren’t government mandated GPS modules tracking your every move. Cameras are on government property or at minimum on private property with the approval of the land owner and that’s fine. Those don’t have the ability to track literally your every move and potentially allow the government to shut off your car if they decide they don’t want you to go somewhere or drive at a certain time in a certain area. Obviously that takes the leap from just knowing your location to controlling more of your vehicle but if they can require that you have a tracking device on your property…that’s a pretty slippery slope toward more and deeper invasion of privacy.

^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah, I’m not even personally THAT privacy obsessed, and even I don’t like the sound of compulsory GPS tracking.

^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah, I’m not even personally THAT privacy obsessed, and even I don’t like the sound of compulsory GPS tracking.

Yeah using something like the patriot act as an example…no matter how sound or understandable the reasoning/justification seemed at the time or how good the intention…its just hard to get the genie back in the bottle after violations of privacy and government overreach are allowed.

Could just keep things the way they are but charge $200/yr for each EV (at registration time)

EVs already pay an extra $110 at registration for this reason. And there's state tax per kWh at public charging stations.

Sure but those aren’t government mandated GPS modules tracking your every move. Cameras are on government property or at minimum on private property with the approval of the land owner and that’s fine. Those don’t have the ability to track literally your every move and potentially allow the government to shut off your car if they decide they don’t want you to go somewhere or drive at a certain time in a certain area. Obviously that takes the leap from just knowing your location to controlling more of your vehicle but if they can require that you have a tracking device on your property…that’s a pretty slippery slope toward more and deeper invasion of privacy.
Tracking mileage traveled and on type of road without tracking actual routes, specific times, etc. is very doable. We don’t have to extrapolate their intent. Elect public servants who actually know the technology available, the real constitutional issues, and who have moral compasses and intelligence and we should be fine. Keep electing culture warriors and we will be stuck with punitive monitoring of our activities.

Technology will be our friend or our foe. It’s our choice.

The mileage charge can be a supplement to the gas tax.
No reason for high mileage vehicles to subsidize gas hogs.

They wouldn't be subsidizing gas hogs, everyone would just be paying the same amount for traveling on the same roads. I think a tiered tax based on size and weight of the vehicle would be appropriate.

There is really no reason why an EV that is the same size and weight as a particular ICE vehicle would not be paying equal taxes. They both need the same expensive infrastructure to operate, contribute to the same amount of wear and tear to the roads, etc.

Tracking mileage traveled and on type of road without tracking actual routes, specific times, etc. is very doable. We don’t have to extrapolate their intent. Elect public servants who actually know the technology available, the real constitutional issues, and who have moral compasses and intelligence and we should be fine. Keep electing culture warriors and we will be stuck with punitive monitoring of our activities.

Technology will be our friend or our foe. It’s our choice.

Yeah okay…elect those people (yeah right…but we’ll assume by some miracle people that fit those categories get elected) but what happens when people who use that as a loophole to abuse power down the road? You always have to extrapolate intent and how something could be misused in the future before passing it. Your take is wishful thinking. No tracking in personal vehicles.

Yeah okay…elect those people (yeah right…but we’ll assume by some miracle people that fit those categories get elected) but what happens when people who use that as a loophole to abuse power down the road? You always have to extrapolate intent and how something could be misused in the future before passing it. Your take is wishful thinking. No tracking in personal vehicles.

This is beautifully said. Please take all of my okctalk points.

Yeah okay…elect those people (yeah right…but we’ll assume by some miracle people that fit those categories get elected) but what happens when people who use that as a loophole to abuse power down the road? You always have to extrapolate intent and how something could be misused in the future before passing it. Your take is wishful thinking. No tracking in personal vehicles.
Like they can’t already know what they want about you. You’d probably be shocked at how easy it is to track someone right now. People worry about the smaller things and are blind to the big ones.

For those of you with a Tesla how does it hold up in the heat. My uber driver last week in Vegas said battery life gets shorten a lot. I told him we drove out from OKC he said with these hot temps he wouldn't do a road trip with his Tesla. He wants a Hybrid for his next car. Now it is hotter out there but how does it do in the OKC heat

Article that was published today addressing Tesla promised range and the customer service Tesla provides when customers have issues with the reality of Tesla cars.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

Like they can’t already know what they want about you. You’d probably be shocked at how easy it is to track someone right now. People worry about the smaller things and are blind to the big ones.

As long as they're doing it through legal means that don't involve me being forced to put a tracking device in my car or on my person...that's all good and well. Despite your opinion, I think many people would consider a government mandated vehicular tracking device to be a massive "thing".


People worry about the smaller things and are blind to the big ones

Also that's what she said?