Toyota thinks hydrogen is the future. Not battery powered EVs.

The good news on that front is that a hydrogen powered car is basically an EV with a different battery. A great deal of the technology that is being refined for EVs will be directly applicable to HVs.

Just saying. Toyota is going with a hydrogen powered ICE configuration, no E involved.

List of hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicles - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hydrogen_internal_combustion_engine_vehicl es

Just saying. Toyota is going with a hydrogen powered ICE configuration, no E involved.

List of hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicles - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hydrogen_internal_combustion_engine_vehicl es

that's interesting. i think the most compelling thing about that technology is that it doesn't rely on rare earth metals for battery production... that's my biggest concern with ramping up ev production. however, i wonder if there are any safety risks associated with a pressurized hyrdrogen fuel tank.

Besides electrification, another huge trend in cars is the proliferation of screens.

Digital dashboards, digital infotainment, even for climate control and front and rear passengers. There are more and more and they are getting bigger and bigger.

The head of BMW recently predicted things will soon start heading in the other direction; that most of the screens involve taking your eyes off the road which is a bad thing when operating a 2-ton moving vehicle.

I suspect we'll start seeing improved and expanded heads-up displays; maybe even embedding the digital information rather than just projecting it.

I wonder if 10 years from now all those huge screens in cars will start to look as dated as a cassette player.

My BMW has the little dial joystick with 6 buttons. It allows me to have physical feedback while making menu selections so I can make changes/adjustments by feel alone. My wife's car has a giant screen with no physical feedback and where you need to touch the screen at changes depending on which screen you are on. Needless to say, we are not fans of the big touch screens (which also has to be cleaned all the time because of finger prints).

Besides electrification, another huge trend in cars is the proliferation of screens.

Digital dashboards, digital infotainment, even for climate control and front and rear passengers. There are more and more and they are getting bigger and bigger.

The head of BMW recently predicted things will soon start heading in the other direction; that most of the screens involve taking your eyes off the road which is a bad thing when operating a 2-ton moving vehicle.

I suspect we'll start seeing improved and expanded heads-up displays; maybe even embedding the digital information rather than just projecting it.

I wonder if 10 years from now all those huge screens in cars will start to look as dated as a cassette player.

Probably. I just assumed they used big screens because it is cheaper than having multiple buttons. Something breaks, you get a whole new screen. More money for repairs and easier to have controls in one spot.

I do hate no physical buttons. GM is the worst with this having the glove box open from within a screen. Madness.

Besides electrification, another huge trend in cars is the proliferation of screens.

Digital dashboards, digital infotainment, even for climate control and front and rear passengers. There are more and more and they are getting bigger and bigger.

The head of BMW recently predicted things will soon start heading in the other direction; that most of the screens involve taking your eyes off the road which is a bad thing when operating a 2-ton moving vehicle.

I suspect we'll start seeing improved and expanded heads-up displays; maybe even embedding the digital information rather than just projecting it.

I wonder if 10 years from now all those huge screens in cars will start to look as dated as a cassette player.

Screens are not going away. Physical buttons are not coming back. Better speech command to car recognition is the path forward.

Voice control is the future. The screens may get smaller, but I doubt they go away. New cars are already integrating Amazon Alexa. Basically you are going to be able to control your auto and home by voice anywhere you are.

Voice control is the future. The screens may get smaller, but I doubt they go away. New cars are already integrating Amazon Alexa. Basically you are going to be able to control your auto and home by voice anywhere you are.

Beat you by a second lol (I had my phone write my reply by speech, just kidding LOL)

The reality is cars will need to be less computerized and less luxurious if people are going to afford them in the future.

The reality is cars will need to be less computerized and less luxurious if people are going to afford them in the future.

Or costs in technology will continue to decline just like in personal computers & smart TVs.

Or costs in technology will continue to decline just like in personal computers & smart TVs.

Well that isn't working so far. Car prices are at all-time high and full of more tech than ever. Wonder what it would cost to produce a car with 2 doors, 4 seats, and an engine.

Voice control is the future. The screens may get smaller, but I doubt they go away. New cars are already integrating Amazon Alexa. Basically you are going to be able to control your auto and home by voice anywhere you are.

That tech better be *reeeeeaaaallllyyyyy* good. Can't imagine any voice recognition being able to distinguish a command in a car with 2 adults, 2 unhappy kids, and maybe a dog....

If Alexa is any indication, voice command has a long long ways to go. Sometimes she struggles to turn on the correct light.

BTW, Amazon lost something like $10 billion dollars last year on Alexa so it might not be around much longer anyhow. Maybe Amazon will start charging me 5 cents everytime I ask Alexa to turn on my reading lamp.

https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-alexa-job-layoffs-rise-and-fall-2022-11

On edit - if you can't read the Business Insider article this is a similar one.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/11/amazon-alexa-is-a-colossal-failure-on-pace-to-lose-10-billion-this-year/

Voice control is the future. The screens may get smaller, but I doubt they go away. New cars are already integrating Amazon Alexa. Basically you are going to be able to control your auto and home by voice anywhere you are.

Voice control has been around for almost 20 years now.

It continues to get better but for various reasons, people seem to prefer to interact with touch screens.

I still see way more people using their fingers on their smartphones than speaking into it. And we all love data and graphics.

Or costs in technology will continue to decline just like in personal computers & smart TVs.

Will be very hard to do that, imo. Average new car has more than 1,000 chips. Just a completely different scale/supply chain than that demanded by a phone or pc.

https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2022/01/04/how-many-semiconductor-chips-are-there-in-a-car/

Will be very hard to do that, imo. Average new car has more than 1,000 chips. Just a completely different scale/supply chain than that demanded by a phone or pc.

https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2022/01/04/how-many-semiconductor-chips-are-there-in-a-car/

Two charts from that article which indicate cars will need be less electrical and more machanical in the future. In the housing market homes steadily got large for decades until the point that many people can't afford them. Now they are getting smaller to get prices down.

17960

17961

Well that isn't working so far. Car prices are at all-time high and full of more tech than ever. Wonder what it would cost to produce a car with 2 doors, 4 seats, and an engine.

there are still cars sub 20k in price and many of them have a lot of the new tech features added in. examples off the top of my head are the Mitsubishi Mirage, the Kia Rio, and the Nissan Versa. it's actually crazy the amount of tech that is put into a lot of these cars.

the reality of the situation is that these cars really weren't selling that great. that is why Ford and GM got out of the really low end car market. it had nothing to do with the cost to put tech in them, but the fact that people just weren't buying them. the average cost that people are willing to spend on new cars has been going up higher and higher for the last decade even when cheap cars were available. It seems that those that buy new, versus used, seem to want to spend more. so most manufacturers have gotten rid of cars that weren't selling.

so to answer your question. it's really not relevent in the US, to know what the cost to produce a car with just 2 doors, 4 seats, and an engine, with no other features, because people won't buy it. they will either buy something that costs a lot more, or go used to get more car for their money.

Two charts from that article which indicate cars will need be less electrical and more machanical in the future. In the housing market homes steadily got large for decades until the point that many people can't afford them. Now they are getting smaller to get prices down.

17960

17961


that second image isn't showing what you think it shows. of course electronics have become a larger percentage of the cost of cars. because older systems have been replaced, and there are now more electronic systems. this doesn't prove that the cost of cars have increased due to electronics, just that there are more electronics in cars.

I started to write a long response, but then decided I don't really care that much so I'll just say I think it says exactly what I believe it to say because most tech in a car is not replacing existing systems from a car built before the E Revolution.

Screens are not going away. Physical buttons are not coming back. Better speech command to car recognition is the path forward.

At least one screen won't go away because of government mandated backup camera. Since it's there anyway, manufactures are going to load it with other features

From the "We can't afford it anymore" file.

https://thehill.com/business/3934301-new-cars-have-become-luxury-items/

From the article...

In the same five years, the share of sales under $25,000, a standard cutoff for economy vehicles, shrank from 13 percent to 4 percent.

“The manufacturers have been steering the market toward more expensive products,” said Charlie Chesbrough, senior economist at Cox. “All those bells and whistles, nav-screens, cruise control, all those fantastic and lifesaving technologies cost money.”

From the "We can't afford it anymore" file.

https://thehill.com/business/3934301-new-cars-have-become-luxury-items/

From the article...

In the same five years, the share of sales under $25,000, a standard cutoff for economy vehicles, shrank from 13 percent to 4 percent.

“The manufacturers have been steering the market toward more expensive products,” said Charlie Chesbrough, senior economist at Cox. “All those bells and whistles, nav-screens, cruise control, all those fantastic and lifesaving technologies cost money.”

yes, because people looking in that price range decided to go used. so auto manufacturers are stopping production of cars below that threshold, because people aren't buying them.

Voice control has been around for almost 20 years now.

It continues to get better but for various reasons, people seem to prefer to interact with touch screens.

I still see way more people using their fingers on their smartphones than speaking into it. And we all love data and graphics.

Personally, voice control works best for situations where I don't already have my phone in my hands. Generally, I can do what I need by using my phone far faster than triggering the Google Assistant, speaking to my phone, and waiting for the cloud to interpret what I said. However I use Google Assistant all the time through smart speakers at home, especially since I've got some lighting plugged into smart switches.

That said, I'm on the fence about voice control in vehicles - but I can definitely see the potential there if it's well done.

Personally, voice control works best for situations where I don't already have my phone in my hands. Generally, I can do what I need by using my phone far faster than triggering the Google Assistant, speaking to my phone, and waiting for the cloud to interpret what I said. However I use Google Assistant all the time through smart speakers at home, especially since I've got some lighting plugged into smart switches.

That said, I'm on the fence about voice control in vehicles - but I can definitely see the potential there if it's well done.

voice control in vehicles is one of those things that seems great on paper. but when you put 3 toddlers in the back seat and realize very quickly how badly it works in reality.

yes, because people looking in that price range decided to go used. so auto manufacturers are stopping production of cars below that threshold, because people aren't buying them.

That is not why manufacturers stop building them. Ford stopped building cars because the profit margins were to thin and the only way they were going to meet environmental standards was to sell high margin SUVs and Pickups, then use those profits to buy credits from Tesla. Once Tesla started becoming profitable without selling their credits Ford bought into Rivian to use their credits. That gave Ford time to start their own EV operation and sold their stake in Rivian.

Volkswagen just bought a few $billion worth of credits from Tesla to be used in China.

That is not why manufacturers stop building them. Ford stopped building cars because the profit margins were to thin and the only way they were going to meet environmental standards was to sell high margin SUVs and Pickups, then use those profits to buy credits from Tesla. Once Tesla started becoming profitable without selling their credits Ford bought into Rivian to use their credits. That gave Ford time to start their own EV operation and sold their stake in Rivian.

Volkswagen just bought a few $billion worth of credits from Tesla to be used in China.

it seems that when the announcement was made back in 2018, the President of Ford North America, Kumar Galhorta, thinks that exactly what i said was the reason

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/ford-exec-says-this-is-why-it-stopped-selling-sedans/


Kumar Galhotra, President of Ford North America and VP of Ford Motor Company, shared with Ford Authority executive editor, Alex Luft, that “the sedan segment itself has been in decline for a very long time, and that decline has been accelerating over the last few years.”

Galhotra continued, “Our industry is very resource-intensive – we have to create a particular product, and the factory to build it, and all the tooling and our suppliers – that can run into billions of dollars. The question then became, in that environment, of a finite amount of capital, where do we want to invest that capital? Do we want to invest it in a declining segment, or do we want to invest it in a growing segment?”

So there is Ford in 2018, saying that they were going to stop selling sedans, because the market for them had been in decline and accelerating. So on the record, Ford says they stopped manufacturing them because people weren't buying them. I think i will take their word on why they said they were going to stop producing their cars. But okay, we can say it was all so they could buy more carbon credits.... sure.

Just saying. Toyota is going with a hydrogen powered ICE configuration, no E involved.

List of hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicles - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hydrogen_internal_combustion_engine_vehicl es

Until today Toyota had been resistant to go all in on E cars. While accepting of zero emissions and no fossil fuels they were looking to develop hydrogen fueled cars (https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/toyota/37888377.html).
New leadership is now going E.
https://www.theautopian.com/toyotas-new-ceo-gets-serious-on-evs-announces-10-new-models-in-three-years/

it seems that when the announcement was made back in 2018, the President of Ford North America, Kumar Galhorta, thinks that exactly what i said was the reason

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/ford-exec-says-this-is-why-it-stopped-selling-sedans/



So there is Ford in 2018, saying that they were going to stop selling sedans, because the market for them had been in decline and accelerating. So on the record, Ford says they stopped manufacturing them because people weren't buying them. I think i will take their word on why they said they were going to stop producing their cars. But okay, we can say it was all so they could buy more carbon credits.... sure.I agree. Demand just isn't there for cars. Dodge won't have a car in their lineup after this year until they introduce an E car. Chevy is down to the Malibu. Buick hasn't had a car in their lineup for a while now. Car sales seem to be owned by KIA, Hyundai, Toyota, etc. Maybe because they started styling models outside the box.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/autos/2023/04/17/only-10-electric-vehicles-will-qualify-for-7500-tax-credit/

Not a great thing for wanting 50% of vehicles in the US to be EV. The problem with government interference is, well, they interfere in the free market. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. This will lower demand for them, fairly significantly. I know plenty of people who bought a hybrid they thought would qualify, only to later find out it didn't.

Penn Square adding 6 EV charging stations.

You'd think that most retailers will start adding them in the near future, as it gives them a captive audience.


Clearly, the new charging model is going to be much more distributed than how you currently buy gas.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/autos/2023/04/17/only-10-electric-vehicles-will-qualify-for-7500-tax-credit/

Not a great thing for wanting 50% of vehicles in the US to be EV. The problem with government interference is, well, they interfere in the free market. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. This will lower demand for them, fairly significantly. I know plenty of people who bought a hybrid they thought would qualify, only to later find out it didn't.

not nearly as much as you would think, because the cost of some of these EV's are getting lower in cost, so people wont' care if they are able to hit their range and other great features.

^

Volkswagen already has plans to unveil a couple of very affordable EVs.

And you can bet Hyundai and Kia are going to have some excellent affordable models very soon.


The car market is already changing more rapidly than at any time in history, and that pace is only going to accelerate.

The biggest problem is that the parts are coming from overseas. If these cars are truly affordable, then great. But some people are solely hoping for a tax credit in order to purchase.

I am hoping the market corrects, because right now, I am not even close to able to afford 75% of EVs (and I am very likely not alone). Need more supply to meet demand, and lower prices.

I am hoping the market corrects, because right now, I am not even close to able to afford 75% of EVs (and I am very likely not alone). Need more supply to meet demand, and lower prices.

so by your own statement, you can already afford 25% of the EV's. and we know more affordable ones are coming. so sounds like the market is already correcting.

^

Volkswagen already has plans to unveil a couple of very affordable EVs.

And you can bet Hyundai and Kia are going to have some excellent affordable models very soon.


The car market is already changing more rapidly than at any time in history, and that pace is only going to accelerate.
It does seem like prices are coming down. Most technology has been this way. Anyone have to buy a Hewlett-Packard scientific calculator in 1978 for example? If this continues our next car may well be an EV. None of our 3 cars has been more than 75 miles from home in the past 5 years. Work and back and plug it in overnight would be fine for us.

And as more are on the road then the used market will pick up. Personally I think my next car will be a Plug In Hybrid is possible. I think that covers everything we would need for my family.

not nearly as much as you would think, because the cost of some of these EV's are getting lower in cost, so people wont' care if they are able to hit their range and other great features.

Depending on how far off it is…not hitting their range is a pretty big deal especially if they aren’t even hitting their range outside of winter months.

I just bought a used CNG powered Honda Civic in addition to my large SUV to save money/maintenance costs while driving around OK and Texas for work. Paid about $5000 total for it (10 years old, 120k miles), CNG is consistently $0.50-$2.00 cheaper per gallon than gas and there are plenty of places in OK and TX to fill it up in about 3 minutes. I could see an EV filling that role for me at some point but I just couldn’t make it financially or logistically make sense with the options and technology available currently.

Seems like every day, another EV manufacturer announces they'll be making their vehicles compatible with the Tesla North America Charging Standard. Ford and GM have already done so and Stellanis (Fiat/Chrysler) is expected to do the same very soon.

Looks very much like the industry is moving towards standardization.

It's dumb that there wasn't a federally mandated standard to begin with. Can you imagine if all the different auto manufacturers required a different gas pump nozzle to fill up your car.

Good news. That should have been the first thing that happened. Every manufacturer benefits because the infrastructure can be spread out. Imagine Chevy having to build/license all of their own gas stations.

The lack of government-inforced charging standards allowed competition and the forces of the free market to find the best solution.

Another announcement: Rivian joining the Tesla charging network.

The lack of government-inforced charging standards allowed competition and the forces of the free market to find the best solution.

Another announcement: Rivian joining the Tesla charging network.

And it did a great job at that. This is constantly evolving technology that has only matured in the past few years. If the government forced a charging standard too early, the industry would be stuck with an inferior standard.

It's dumb that there wasn't a federally mandated standard to begin with. Can you imagine if all the different auto manufacturers required a different gas pump nozzle to fill up your car.

I'm sure there were different nozzles in the beginning. Takes a few years for everyone to agree to the 'best way'.

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png

Lol, exactly. The first electric car standard looked like this. 18079

Look how long it has taken cell phone manufacturers to come up with a single power cord - and Apple still doesn't want to play along.

Look how long it has taken cell phone manufacturers to come up with a single power cord - and Apple still doesn't want to play along.

Which is so strange because it was Apple that forced USB-C on everyone in the first place.

Look how long it has taken cell phone manufacturers to come up with a single power cord - and Apple still doesn't want to play along.

Looks like tile that will most likely end with the iPhone 15 according to all the rumors about it so far.

There is a lot of money to be made in proprietary components, especially when you have an extremely loyal customer base...which is why Tesla is allowing other manufacturers to use their charging systems. Tesla gets paid even if you don't buy their car.

I'm no big fan of Tesla, or Elon Musk. But, they did spend big in order to build out their charging system. An amount of money and speed of construction than nobody else was willing to do. And this is the reward.

Looks like tile that will most likely end with the iPhone 15 according to all the rumors about it so far.

That's because Europe forced them to use USB-C.

That's because Europe forced them to use USB-C.

they are thinking about going to port at all instead of going to usb c

https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/forget-usb-c-an-iphone-with-no-charging-port-isnt-that-absurd/

I'm no big fan of Tesla, or Elon Musk. But, they did spend big in order to build out their charging system. An amount of money and speed of construction than nobody else was willing to do. And this is the reward.

It makes me wonder if Tesla's internal data mining is revealing bad news. Their sales have peaked, or at best have leveled off, and price cuts have significantly reduced their profit margins, plus competition is picking up. They might have built more charging capacity than they can use so to recoup that cost they can make it available to other manufacturers. They are also considering licensing their software as well.

they are thinking about going to port at all instead of going to usb c

https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/forget-usb-c-an-iphone-with-no-charging-port-isnt-that-absurd/

Makes total sense for Apple. Why put a USB-C port in for free when you can sell a wireless charger for $99...that still has to be plugged into the wall.

Makes total sense for Apple. Why put a USB-C port in for free when you can sell a wireless charger for $99...that still has to be plugged into the wall.

wireless chargers are like 12 bucks

wireless chargers are like 12 bucks

Yeah, but Apple users would still buy the 99 dollar version for some reason. You know because Apple!

Yeah, but Apple users would still buy the 99 dollar version for some reason. You know because Apple!

And 12 months later they will release it in 8 different colors and people will buy one of each.

Test drove a Lucid this morning. Wow I wish could afford one of those. I really have started liking Teslas less and less. The only EVs I currently really like is the Mini EV, HUMMER EV, Lucid, E Tron sedan, and the Taycan. Out of all of those I’ve only driven the Hummer and the Audi E Tron SUV but I’d prefer the sedan although I haven’t driven that one. I can’t afford a single one of those either so not that matters.

The lack of government-inforced charging standards allowed competition and the forces of the free market to find the best solution.

Another announcement: Rivian joining the Tesla charging network.
Rivian: https://apnews.com/article/rivian-tesla-charging-network-connector-standard-e8cf2f542bcb3e60178ec1af5d5b0d48?utm_source=facebo ok&utm_medium=news_tab