yes, by 2030, i think full EV's will be a majority of what is sold, and then second will by hybrid vehicles. pure ICE vehicles will be a smaller and smaller chunk of cars being sold each year at that point.

This is demonstrably false.

You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars (https://www.motortrend.com/features/truth-about-electric-cars-ad-why-you-are-being-lied-to/)
Science has repeatedly shown EVs are better for humans, despite the meme you just retweeted.

Lots of IFs in that article - the biggest one being that EV owners are going to drive their EV forever. No manufacturer wants their car lasting forever.

Almost 1/2 the people in California live in one type of multi-family housing or another. California is going to have to abandon their EV-only dream.

Lots of IFs in that article - the biggest one being that EV owners are going to drive their EV forever. No manufacturer wants their car lasting forever.

? i'm not sure you and I read the same article.

EV's are being approached from two different directions: 1) Legacy ICE manufacturers starting to add them to their lineups; and 2) startups like Tesla and many others that are really tech/electronics companies.

#1 has a big current advantage in terms of manufacturing and dealer infrastructure. But I strongly believe that will turn into a big disadvantage down the road.

The new frontier is all about innovation and being adaptable and getting out in front of things. Tech companies are much better suited for this sort of thing and can easily find someone to do the manufacturing of the big, non-techie parts. Assembly is easier than ever as well with even the big current car companies using a ton of automation.

It won't be long until the tide turns and we get a really good charging infrastructure and then absolutely everything is going to be working against ICE manufacturers. And soon the protectionist laws in place that benefit the existing and antiquated dealer network will be torpedoed just like protectionist import laws met the same fate.

They are getting close to having wireless charging pads in your garage, much like smartphones. Kia is piloting a charging station that connects to your car without having to get out of your seat (beats the crap out of filling up in an Oklahoma winter). As with all new tech, the skies are the limit and there is so much money to be made, innovation will continue to handle any existing challenge.

Almost 1/2 the people in California live in one type of multi-family housing or another. California is going to have to abandon their EV-only dream.

those people aren't buying brand new cars already... they are buying used. and the 2035 EV mandate in California only affects new car sells, not the used market.

Lots of IFs in that article - the biggest one being that EV owners are going to drive their EV forever. No manufacturer wants their car lasting forever.

I didnt see anything where it said EVs will be driven forever. I saw date ranges of like less than 2 yrs for break-evens.
>So even if you sign just a two-year lease, by the time you turn in your EV, it has released less CO2 than the equivalent ICE vehicle.

Almost 1/2 the people in California live in one type of multi-family housing or another. California is going to have to abandon their EV-only dream.

This issue will be resolved simply because there are so many people who live in multi-family units everywhere. Way more common in Europe and Asia than the U.S.

Technology always answers the market need and in ways no one could ever predict.

Almost 1/2 the people in California live in one type of multi-family housing or another. California is going to have to abandon their EV-only dream.

How are these two things related? Why can someone in an apartment not use an EV? My apartment in Kansas City provided EV parking with free charging 6 years ago. Is there a reason why the apartment complexes in California cannot provide EV chargers like other places do?

And again, this is about selling new cars vs. owning them.

No state or country is going to force people who currently own ICE vehicles to throw them away.

So what does California tell people living in multi-family - buy a used car or move?

It seems that one of the most difficult parts of participating in an on-line forum is in sticking to the topic of the individual threads.

With that in mind I thought it would be interesting to see how a conversation progressed without the topic being central to the discussion and just see where things go on the own momentum...like a normal conversation does.

So I'll get it started with this.

Every legacy automobile company has now tipped at least a toe into the EV market. Some dove in head first without even checking how deep the water is. Personally, I don't think the EV market is very deep and see it as nothing more than a nich market, that is rapidly becoming over crowded.

This leads me to ask 2 questions. 1) Which legacy manufacturer will abandon the EV market first. 2) Which EV manufacturer will be the first to build a car with an internal combustion engine?

Ford recently announced that they lost $2 billion last year on their EV operations and expect to lose $3 billion this year. They don't project a profit for several more years. Due to investor criticism Ford has changed their financial reporting model to single out profit/loss by business unit. This has made them the only legacy manufacturer that publicized the losses on EVs.

Since then Ford has come under pressure to spin off their EV production into its own company. I think Ford will do that and become the first legacy company to abandon EV.

Conversely, I think it will only be a matter of time before the first EV manufacturer introduces a gasoline engine into their offerings. I just don't know which one that might be.
Not sure it’s going to happen like that. 5 years ago if anyone saw a Tesla they would’ve been stupified. Now I can’t leave the house without seeing several. I know several owners of them. Considering the trend as is, EV market will only grow. There’s a tendency to be hostile towards EV’s around here. That makes the EV market even stronger elsewhere. Everywhere else. I don’t foresee any legacy manufacturers getting out of the market. Wouldn’t be surprised to see them all step on the gas (pun intended)

So what does California tell people living in multi-family - buy a used car or move?

they don't tell them anything. the people themselves decide which option works best for them. if that's to buy used, this it is, if it's to scrap up enough to buy an ev, then they will. and if they choose to move, they will..

So what does California tell people living in multi-family - buy a used car or move?

The current plan is that by 2035 all new cars sold would have to be zero emissions.

You would still be able to operate and resell ICE cars after that date.


And things like this are put out all the time as a goal to get things moving in a particular direction. There is always compromise and changes.

Besides all this, EVs are just better.

They are faster, have a ridiculous amount of instant torque, fewer moving parts... And we're just getting started, basically taking conventional ICE designs and putting in some batteries. Manufacturers like Canoo are starting with a blank sheet of paper and producing actual machines that are rolling answers to questions like: Why do we even need a hood? It's thrilling to think about where this all may lead.

Considering that ICE vehicles have been around for a century and EVs have really only been mass-produced for a decade, the fact the two are even close in price and usability shows how quickly the scales are going to tip.

Look, I love cars as much as anyone. I grew up dreaming of fast cars with huge V-8's. But there is a better way and we are moving very fast toward it.

I can remember being told by a certain someone on this board a half decade ago (or maybe a bit more) that the US was going to balkanize into city states by a date that I'm pretty sure has already come and gone. These EV industry failure predictions are going to be wildly wrong in a very similar way.

I actually don't like cars period. I would rather luve 8n a world without them to the extent possible. I'm simply looking at this from a practicality and scalability issue.

What market problem is the EV revolution trying to solve?

The other thing you have to consider is autonomous driving technology.

The idea that every American household needs 2 to 10 cars is pretty absurd since all cars sit stationary for about 98% of their existence.

Once we get to fully autonomous tech (and we are getting very close -- it's already being used in some cities for taxis) then that could change everything. Why pay to have a car sit in your garage or in your employer's parking lot all day? Just hail a vehicle that takes you where you want to go and then it leaves to get the next rider. It would also drastically reduce parking needs which gobble up half our cities.

And EVs are far better suited to this bigger vision. Easier to maintain, electronics are at the heart and soul of the entire vehicle.

It's such a bizarre thing to think that a car gives you freedom. Really, the opposite is true. So much expense and hassle and needing a garage and parking and then worrying about where you leave it until you come back. And, the time you spend driving is completely wasted. You can't do anything else but listen to music. I used to love to commute to downtown L.A. on the train because I read a ton and also got a lot of work done.

I can remember being told by a certain someone on this board a half decade ago (or maybe a bit more) that the US was going to balkanize into city states by a date that I'm pretty sure has already come and gone. These EV industry failure predictions are going to be wildly wrong in a very similar way.

Yeah, I think the prediction was something other than 50 US States. The date was wrong by the trajectory is certainly there. National Divorce has a pretty high desirability rate.

Don't get me started on fully autonomous cars. That is never happening.

Besides all this, EVs are just better.

They are faster, have a ridiculous amount of instant torque, fewer moving parts... And we're just getting started, basically taking conventional ICE designs and putting in some batteries. Manufacturers like Canoo are starting with a blank sheet of paper and producing actual machines that are rolling answers to questions like: Why do we even need a hood? It's thrilling to think about where this all may lead.

Considering that ICE vehicles have been around for a century and EVs have really only been mass-produced for a decade, the fact the two are even close in price and usability shows how quickly the scales are going to tip.

Look, I love cars as much as anyone. I grew up dreaming of fast cars with huge V-8's. But there is a better way and we are moving very fast toward it.

Man, as a car nut, and someone who has raced for 20+ years and owns multiple muscle cars, this has been a hard reality to accept.

So what does California tell people living in multi-family - buy a used car or move?

Again, what is your specific question about?

California has had a law on the books for 8yrs to address this - methods to provide EV chargers to renters.
Law section (ca.gov) (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=1947.6.&lawCode=CIV)

Plus, cities like Kansas City have many chargers throughout the city. Apartment dwellers could charge while running into the store for groceries, getting a manicure, or buying their infamous avocado toast. Even the parking garage for the Social Security office in Kansas City had like a dozen charging stations available.

There are also charging stations setup like gas stations, where you just drive up and charge.

I am really unsure where your confusion is coming from.

Man, as a car nut, and someone who has raced for 20+ years and owns multiple muscle cars, this has been a hard reality to accept.

It has been for me, too. It's like having to finally accept that modern automatics are just way better (and considerably faster) than a manual transmission, and I've owned 5 different cars with stick-shift.

I have read Car & Driver and Motor Trend cover-to-cover since I was about 13 years old. I still do, just online.

And even THEY see how things are already better and will soon be much more so.

It's such a bizarre thing to think that a car gives you freedom. Really, the opposite is true. So much expense and hassle and needing a garage and parking and then worrying about where you leave it until you come back. And, the time you spend driving is completely wasted. You can't do anything else but listen to music. I used to love to commute to downtown L.A. on the train because I read a ton and also got a lot of work done.

I loved taking public transit when I lived in DC. I could read a book, work on homework, etc. on the metro instead of having to drive. Plus, the metro costs were less than what the parking space alone would cost, let alone that additional costs of a car payment, gas payment, and insurance payment. Plus, when you were out drinking, it was cheaper to take the metro home than an Uber and absolutely no fear of anyone in your party trying to drive when they shouldn't.

It has been for me, too. It's like having to finally accept that modern automatics are just way better (and considerably faster) than a manual transmission, and I've owned 5 different cars with stick-shift.

I have read Car & Driver and Motor Trend cover-to-cover since I was about 13 years old. I still do, just online.

And even THEY see how things are already better and will soon be much more so.

Shhh. I still manage to convince my wife I need to buy standards and then grab a short throw performance shifter on them, to be able to compete at the track. If she finds out the automatics will outperform a short throw, I'll lose that excuse. ;)

As is probably obvious, I have always loved cars and I've been trying to get my head around this rapid change.

I really, really want an EV but the timing is not quite right for me, mainly because I'm a single-car household. But also because things are so rapidly evolving I know if I bought something now I'd really regret it in just a few years.

Carmakers like Volvo are starting to offer subscription models of all types and that idea appeals to me, although I've never even leased a car. It's a smart way of enticing people like me who are worried about some great tech stride making a newly-purchased model obsolete.

If you think about it, it's amazing it's taken this long for there to be such rapid change in cars. Apart from some new electronics that have really only come about in the last 10 years, not much has changed in a very long time: you go to a car dealer, usually have to deal with some guy that is trying to rip you off, you spend a fortune on interest on a new car loan (where they really make their money), and drive around in a big metal box that burns gasoline.

Every part of the equation is changing right before our eyes.

To be entirely fair, the multi-family housing question is a big part of what would stop me from switching to an EV as things stand now when I consider the setup of the condo complex I live in. We'll see what happens in the future though, and for the time being I am pretty satisfied with the mileage I get in my Honda Accord hybrid.

Pie in the sky I am hopeful for fuel cell cars combined with enough advances in green hydrogen that that would be an option for those without a good charging situation.

Man, as a car nut, and someone who has raced for 20+ years and owns multiple muscle cars, this has been a hard reality to accept.I hear you. I'm coming around slowly to the idea that EVs can be as good or better. But my biggest wonder, based on my experience and bias, is if there's a time that ICEs just don't exist will things like sprint cars just go away. For EVs to work on dirt they're going to have to figure out a way to keep the HP but control the massive torque that EVs produce.

There are some everyday, drive-to-work, 4-door EVs that are already hitting 0-60 well under 3 seconds.

The fastest car I've ever owned was a Porsche Boxster S that was just under 5 seconds to that speed and I can't imagine doing it faster... Let alone roughly *half* the time and in a car that weighs twice as much.

And they are just getting started. All types of new possibilities in steering, cornering, and stopping not to mention automation.

Really, the engines and battery packs can be developed by anyone and then the automakers can continue to work on every other area of engineering to make their products better, cheaper, safer and more unique and beautiful.

I live in an apartment building with a 4 story parking garage and about 400 apartments. Am I expecting my complex to install charging stations to accommodate 600 cars charging all at the same time?

I live in an apartment building with a 4 story parking garage and about 400 apartments. Am I expecting my complex to install charging stations to accommodate 600 cars charging all at the same time?

no. but i do see all of these new gas stations that are being built with restaurants in such in them being upset in a few years when they realize they should have put in charging stations that would have kept people there long enough to eat. not everyone will be charging, or able to charge overnight. and we shouldn't expect that. infact, we should discourage it as much as we can. that should be spaced out during the day, if able to. many companies even hear in oklahoma are already installing ev chargers in their parking lots. i feel that will become the norm for many of them going forward.

I live in an apartment building with a 4 story parking garage and about 400 apartments. Am I expecting my complex to install charging stations to accommodate 600 cars charging all at the same time?

The major metro areas of California have had to figure out many things over the years to handle the density that they have. I'm pretty sure they'll somehow figure this out too.

I just have a difficult time believing that a lot of people are going to be happy to organize their life around charging their cars. The wife and I have a hard enough time trying to figure out where we want to eat, now we have to throw charging availability into the mix?

I just have a difficult time believing that a lot of people are going to be happy to organize their life around charging their cars. The wife and I have a hard enough time trying to figure out where we want to eat, now we have to throw charging availability into the mix?

you are assuming that charging options are going to stay as sparse as they currently are. like everyone is just going to be forced against their will to switch to EV's and there will still only be like 5 charging locations in OKC.

Unless you are in the habit of driving several hundred miles a day, charging at home will be infinitely easier than having to drive to a gas station.

I imagine that apartments and even employers will be making charging stations available as an inducement as a competitive advantage.

Europe, Asia, and just about everywhere else are going to have to figure all this out long before the U.S. Americans always seem to think only in our terms, and the way we live is definitely different than the rest of the world.

Unless you are in the habit of driving several hundred miles a day, charging at home will be infinitely easier than having to drive to a gas station.

I imagine that apartments and even employers will be making charging stations available as an inducement as a competitive advantage.

Europe, Asia, and just about everywhere else are going to have to figure all this out long before the U.S. Americans always seem to think only in our terms, and the way we live is definitely different than the rest of the world.

They never adopted the same level of car culture to begin with. That's the whole point, you might as well live a more urban lifestyle. It will be a huge cost to covert from ICE car culture to electric car culture. Might as well redevelop to be more urban.

BTW, the most American of car companies (Ford & GM) both sell more vehicles outside the U.S. than in it. In fact, Toyota sells more vehicles in the states than Ford.

The U.S. represents a small percentage of global car sales and that number is shrinking all the time.

They never adopted the same level of car culture to begin with. That's the whole point, you might as well live a more urban lifestyle. It will be a huge cost to covert from ICE car culture to electric car culture. Might as well redevelop to be more urban.

But they still have millions and millions of cars and far more density.

BTW, Kia/Hyundai/Genesis is the traditional carmaker that is really kicking tail in the EV market. For that matter, they are doing the same in ICE world.

And they have scores of new EVs lined up and ready to roll out.

Previous innovators like Honda and Toyota seem to be way behind; probably even below Ford and GM.

And Tesla has proven that a startup can come out of nowhere and quickly sell a ton of cars. I'm really interested to see what tech companies like Apple do. The Sony/Honda partnership might be a great future business model.


I'm going to have to buy a new car soon but am overwhelmed with options and change, particularly because I tend to keep my cars for a long time. In June, I will have had my current vehicle for 20 years and truthfully, I could easily keep it for quite a while longer -- and just may.

We're with you, Pete.

My car (Infiniti) is 4 years old. It's a traditional ICE car. It's in great shape, it's not going somewhere for a good long while. My wife, on the other hand, has a Lexus SUV. It's about 10-12 years old with way north of 100K miles. Realistically we are probably only a year or two from a replacement. She is dying for an EV. But she has said to me, as bad as she is starting to want a car, she really might advocate putting off the purchase for a little extra time to see how quickly the EV infrastructure is built. When you're making a purchase that is realistically a 10+ year decision, you have to "think ahead" a little bit. This decade is going to be one of transition for a lot of people, I predict.

As for people in multi-family housing, what will happen with them for transportation. My company is based in San Jose and the office there has charging stations for employees and also pays for mass transit monthly passes for employees.

As for people in multi-family housing, what will happen with them for transportation. My company is based in San Jose and the office there has charging stations for employees and also pays for mass transit monthly passes for employees.

When I worked in downtown L.A., my company paid for parking for most employees. They also offered a generous credit towards mass transit as an alternative; more than they paid for a parking spot. It's common in big cities and used as a perk in recruiting and retention.


Like all things, the world will adjust to all the changes on the horizon. There is so much money at stake that the competitive market will drive tons of innovative ideas.

I mentioned on another thread, Germany is already working on providing embedded charging on their highways... Think about how that would completely change everything! There are going to be a ton of incredible things that happen that we can't even dream up. Right now you have people all over the world cooking up the New New Thing (title of my favorite book about the Silicon Valley).

I just hope we don't go 100% EV only in new line ups in my life time. I think an ICE will always be more "fun" to drive than an EV. I have thought of an EV as my commuter, but most of my commute is highway, and so I don't get the benefits of regenerative charging by constantly stopping at traffic lights. So, I am thinking I would have to top up while at work. Plus, EVs need to have better protection in freezing temperatures. I just don't see why people want to go all in, there should be a variety for everyone to have what they want/need. People should not be made out as sinners or less than for wanting to put around on dino fuel.

Plus, the whole companies holding patents on their tech which makes it more difficult for me to wrench on my own vehicle scares me. If I am going to buy something, I want to own it and I want to be able to keep it serviced for as long as I want, not for however long a given company says. The issues farmers have with John Deere and all of the tech on farm equipment is scary as well as the policies that Porsche has in place that barr owners from even touching the engine bays is absolutely ridiculous. I own the car, I get to do with it as I want.

Plus, the whole companies holding patents on their tech which makes it more difficult for me to wrench on my own vehicle scares me. If I am going to buy something, I want to own it and I want to be able to keep it serviced for as long as I want, not for however long a given company says. The issues farmers have with John Deere and all of the tech on farm equipment is scary as well as the policies that Porsche has in place that barr owners from even touching the engine bays is absolutely ridiculous. I own the car, I get to do with it as I want.

EVs have very little needed maintenance. It's not the same at all.

Plus, the whole companies holding patents on their tech which makes it more difficult for me to wrench on my own vehicle scares me. If I am going to buy something, I want to own it and I want to be able to keep it serviced for as long as I want, not for however long a given company says. The issues farmers have with John Deere and all of the tech on farm equipment is scary as well as the policies that Porsche has in place that barr owners from even touching the engine bays is absolutely ridiculous. I own the car, I get to do with it as I want.

It's just a warranty issue; you can always do what you want, you just may void your warranty. Your choice.

I just hope we don't go 100% EV only in new line ups in my life time. I think an ICE will always be more "fun" to drive than an EV. I have thought of an EV as my commuter, but most of my commute is highway, and so I don't get the benefits of regenerative charging by constantly stopping at traffic lights. So, I am thinking I would have to top up while at work. Plus, EVs need to have better protection in freezing temperatures. I just don't see why people want to go all in, there should be a variety for everyone to have what they want/need. People should not be made out as sinners or less than for wanting to put around on dino fuel.

Have you ever actually driven an EV? My MINI Cooper SE is *way* more "fun" to drive than my 2007 Honda Civic was (albeit they're two different types of car), and it can actually be dangerous in Sport mode if you're not careful. As far as maintenance, there is literally nothing to do for service - my first service is 2 years out, and the only thing I need to check until then is pretty much windshield wiper fluid (I think the only thing that might need attention *might* be the brake pads). Charging convenience is great for me - plug it in at home to my level 2 charger, and I'm done in 45 minutes (from empty). Won't take it on long trips due to the small battery size/range (120 miles), but for daily use, it works perfectly fine and easier since there's no gas station I have to deal with. Cost is the same as the ICE MINI Cooper due to the tax credit, but that's apparently changing now (I bought in 2022), so in this case, the EV doesn't have a higher cost to break even with, so it doesn't have to be "better", even though it is.

Just for fun. In what year does EV sales exceed ICE sales in the US?

Just for fun. In what year does EV sales exceed ICE sales in the US?

i'm going to say 2030. assuming we are only talking new car sales

40% of all US EV sales are in California. If the EV market is going to surpass ICE sales nationwide in the next 7 years someone else better start buying them soon. Even at 40% of all EV sales they still only account for 12% of new cars sold in California. Time will tell but EVs are going to be hard pressed to surpass the 50% mark nationwide in 7 years when they are still at 12% in their best market. Of course, by banning new car sales the percentage will increase even if it results in fewer actual vehicles being sold.

40% of all US EV sales are in California. If the EV market is going to surpass ICE sales nationwide in the next 7 years someone else better start buying them soon. Even at 40% of all EV sales they still only account for 12% of new cars sold in California. Time will tell but EVs are going to be hard pressed to surpass the 50% mark nationwide in 7 years when they are still at 12% in their best market. Of course, by banning new car sales the percentage will increase even if it results in fewer actual vehicles being sold.

well S&P global Mobility thinks it will be close. they predict 40-45% of total car sales being EV by 2030, Bloomberg thinks it might even be the year before, but will be more than half by 2030, C-Net says 2030 or 2031

i mean it's certainly an upward trend. it took 8 years to sell the first million EV cars in the US, 3 years to sell the next million, and now more than a million were sold in just 2022. and just because people don't see them everywhere doesn't mean that the sales are increasing. if we keep going on the current track that the Edison Electric Institute has talked about, we could see EV's be 50% of the sales, while still only being 10% of the total vehicles on the road.

40% of all US EV sales are in California. If the EV market is going to surpass ICE sales nationwide in the next 7 years someone else better start buying them soon. Even at 40% of all EV sales they still only account for 12% of new cars sold in California. Time will tell but EVs are going to be hard pressed to surpass the 50% mark nationwide in 7 years when they are still at 12% in their best market. Of course, by banning new car sales the percentage will increase even if it results in fewer actual vehicles being sold.

lets also not forget that California being 40% is fine, considering that California is 45% of total car sales each year for the whole country.

Plus, the change will come fairly quickly because the car manufactures themselves have committed to switching all or the majority of their lines to EV over the next ceade. I'm in the middle of ordering one of the final year ICE Challengers right now - they're not going away because of lack of sales or popularity - they're being retired in favor of EV muscle cars. It's happening. Unless the manufacturers change direction and pull back (which is unlikely) it will get more and more difficult to purchase a new ICE car.

Plus, the change will come fairly quickly because the car manufactures themselves have committed to switching all or the majority of their lines to EV over the next ceade. I'm in the middle of ordering one of the final year ICE Challengers right now - they're not going away because of lack of sales or popularity - they're being retired in favor of EV muscle cars. It's happening. Unless the manufacturers change direction and pull back (which is unlikely) it will get more and more difficult to purchase a new ICE car.

exactly. to think that 2030 is a ridiculously short timeframe for EV's to pass ICE in sales, when by that time, there is a good chance that a majority of cars manufactured will be EV's and no longer ICE... is kind of crazy. i'm not saying that will be the year, but it will be extremely close by then.

Lots of automakers have pointed to 2030 as the year by which they will only sell EVs.

Think about this: Not long ago, it would be incomprehensible that Ford would only sell one car. But that is now the case as the Mustang is the only non-SUV or truck in their lineup. Most everyone else is following suit and cars now only represent about 20% of new vehicle sales in the United States. Last month there was only one car in the Top 10, the Toyota Camry at #7 and falling fast.

SUVs weren't even on anyone's radar as recently as the early 90s and now traditional cars have almost all faded into the sunset, at least here in the U.S. It still shocks me when I think about it and demonstrates how quickly things can change in even the largest of consumer markets.

Yeah, I understand all of the hype, predictions by analysts, the desire of Environmental crowd etc... But when it comes to real dollars I just don't think it is going to pan out. GM announced they were going 100% electric by 2035, then a few months later announced they were going to invest $1 billion in new V8 engines. Wall Street is pressuring Ford to spin-off their EV division, and not so investors can invest in hugely profitable ICE operations but so they can invest directly in the massive losses in the EV division. The Market simply is not driving this level of investment and economics will always win out.

I would be interested to know how much overlap there is between Crypto-currency, EV, and autonomous car believers.

There are still a ton of people over 50 who won't use social media, hate cell phones, and that are very resistant to change of any type.

And it's true many will never buy an EV in their lifetimes and will continue to write them off as 'hype' by the 'environmental crowd'... That won't change the way this is going to continue to unfold one bit.

Yeah, I understand all of the hype, predictions by analysts, the desire of Environmental crowd etc... But when it comes to real dollars I just don't think it is going to pan out. GM announced they were going 100% electric by 2035, then a few months later announced they were going to invest $1 billion in new V8 engines. Wall Street is pressuring Ford to spin-off their EV division, and not so investors can invest in hugely profitable ICE operations but so they can invest directly in the massive losses in the EV division. The Market simply is not driving this level of investment and economics will always win out.

I would be interested to know how much overlap there is between Crypto-currency, EV, and autonomous car believers.

Farley already answered this for FORD, “And despite the press speculation, we have no plans to spin off our electric business or ICE business. It’s really more around focus and capabilities, expertise and talent. Those are key for Ford, and this is what we’re working on.”

that was on an investor Conference call over a year ago.

as for GM, it's 1 Billion was for the next gen of V-8 engings as well as supporting production of EV components. that last part seems to keep being forgotten. is GM still planning on releasing a new V-8? maybe, they released their last on just back in 2013. so it's been only a 10 year life cycle. if they hope to get it on the market by 2025, then they might still phase it out by 2035, since it looks like they are trying to phase our their current gen V-8's after just 10-12 years.

as for your last comment? i have never invested in crypto (infact i refused back in 2012 to be paid 22 bitcoin for some work that i had done creating a website... that sure turned out to be perhaps a bad strategy on my part), i think fully autonomous cars are a major legal liability that will take a long time to resolve, but do believe that the tech that has been created around the idea of autonomous cars, has led to major new safety features that are now becoming industry standards, and so the development in the tech has been very worthwhile.

lets also not forget that California being 40% is fine, considering that California is 45% of total car sales each year for the whole country.

This is why California law usually dictates what auto manufactures do for the entire country. We saw this with California's emission standards for ICE vehicles. The zero emission new car sales law in California will no doubt influence what automakers invest in and it will have an effect on the entire country with regards to what new cars are available to buy in 2035 and beyond.

In GM's $1 billion joint V8/EV spending only about $60 million went to EV. The other $940 million went to the V8.

Anyhow, despite the disagreement the conversation has atleast been civil, and that says a lot. Time will tell what the futute of EVs are but I'll go out on a limb and say this. When an EV gets a consistent 600 mile range and I can recharge it from 0% to 100% in less than 10 minutes I'll consider buying one.

In the meantime, I tend to agree with this guy.

https://www.businessinsider.com/stellantis-jeep-ceo-world-doesnt-have-enough-raw-materials-electric-car-batteries-2023-3?inline-endstory-related-recommendations=

And the companion article.

https://www.businessinsider.com/auto-executives-electric-vehicle-transition-not-sure-consumer-adoption-2022-12