Classen Curve is going to install several Rivian (very highly regarded electric truck company) charging stations.

I suspect this also means that Rivian will be doing some sort of showroom in Classen Curve.

https://rivian.com/

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Ford has taken away the option to reserve the F-150 lightning. They have 200,000+ reservations which means if you wanted one, you're now waiting years to get it.

But this whole thing'll blow over, right?

Ford has taken away the option to reserve the F-150 lightning. They have 200,000+ reservations which means if you wanted one, you're now waiting years to get it.

But this whole thing'll blow over, right?

Who are you talking to?

In general I’m not the biggest fan of government regulation but I will say this is one of those things that I think the government should step in and save it if you build an electric car charger it needs to be a universal standard so anybody can charge their car even if it’s not a Rivian.

Most electric car chargers have fall-backs to standard plugs that work but are just slower.

In general I’m not the biggest fan of government regulation but I will say this is one of those things that I think the government should step in and save it if you build an electric car charger it needs to be a universal standard so anybody can charge their car even if it’s not a Rivian.

It might have something to do with who or what is paying for these. If it's Amazon I could see the Rivian plug.

In general I’m not the biggest fan of government regulation but I will say this is one of those things that I think the government should step in and save it if you build an electric car charger it needs to be a universal standard so anybody can charge their car even if it’s not a Rivian.m
I agree. Imagine if every auto-maker had their own dimensions for fuel nozzles. Your Toyota could only be filled up at Toyota nozzles which only Conoco has.

Should definitely be a standard; or in lieu of that adapters available that aren’t several hundreds of dollars. But really a universal port is the best way. We use them on aircraft. Every aircraft from every manufacturer uses the same power receptacle. A 1970 US built 737 uses the same 115volt 400 Hz receptacle as an Airbus A321 that rolled off the line in France 2 days ago.

https://denvergov.org/Government/Agencies-Departments-Offices/Agencies-Departments-Offices-Directory/Climate-Action-Sustainability-Resiliency/Sustainable-Transportation/Electric-Bikes#section-2

The City of Denver is offering up to $1200 per person in rebates for residents who purchase an ebike. II love this approach of incentivizing individual citizens to incite desired change. City of OKC should take note!

https://denvergov.org/Government/Agencies-Departments-Offices/Agencies-Departments-Offices-Directory/Climate-Action-Sustainability-Resiliency/Sustainable-Transportation/Electric-Bikes#section-2

The City of Denver is offering up to $1200 per person in rebates for residents who purchase an ebike. II love this approach of incentivizing individual citizens to incite desired change. City of OKC should take note!

You probably already know this, but both the Federal and OK governments give fairly decent tax credits for buying an electric vehicle, as well as installing charging stations/buying chargers.

^^^ does it include ebikes?

^^^ does it include ebikes?

The approved list is all 4 wheelers

Then that's why this move from the City of Denver is so noteworthy. Monetarily incentivizing citizens to make choices that are healthier for the city seems like a pretty great idea. Much better than forcing change or taxing the hell out of drivers (even though that approach would still help to an extent, it disproportionally effects poorer residents).

We are going to have to change our approach to city planning sooner or later so kudos to Denver for taking a step in a promising direction.

Then that's why this move from the City of Denver is so noteworthy. Monetarily incentivizing citizens to make choices that are healthier for the city seems like a pretty great idea. Much better than forcing change or taxing the hell out of drivers (even though that approach would still help to an extent, it disproportionally effects poorer residents).

We are going to have to change our approach to city planning sooner or later so kudos to Denver for taking a step in a promising direction.

So you think people are going to give up cars for a $1200 incentive to get an e-bike? I'm not so sure about that. I'm going to get $7500 back (tax credit) from the federal gov't and $5500 back (tax credit) from the state gov't for purchasing a $30K electric car, not sure why more people wouldn't go *that* route than replace a car with an e-bike. And if you replace a regular bicycle with an e-bike, you'd actually be contributing to climate change instead of trying to fix it, lol....

You probably already know this, but both the Federal and OK governments give fairly decent tax credits for buying an electric vehicle, as well as installing charging stations/buying chargers.

I'm having trouble finding the information on the OK tax credit for buying an electric vehicle. Where is this info?

So you think people are going to give up cars for a $1200 incentive to get an e-bike? I'm not so sure about that. I'm going to get $7500 back (tax credit) from the federal gov't and $5500 back (tax credit) from the state gov't for purchasing a $30K electric car, not sure why more people wouldn't go *that* route than replace a car with an e-bike. And if you replace a regular bicycle with an e-bike, you'd actually be contributing to climate change instead of trying to fix it, lol....
But, owning an e-bike AND a car - even an electric one - aren’t mutually exclusive. And even if you only like the e-bike enough to replace SOME of your trips in a car…there is carbon benefit AND an exercise/public health benefit.

I'm having trouble finding the information on the OK tax credit for buying an electric vehicle. Where is this info?

Links to the statutes, etc. are here:

https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/all?state=OK

But, owning an e-bike AND a car - even an electric one - aren’t mutually exclusive. And even if you only like the e-bike enough to replace SOME of your trips in a car…there is carbon benefit AND an exercise/public health benefit.
Also electric motorcycles such as the LIVE WIRE by HD should not be excluded.

Not practical for everyone. What is the range on them? If you want to go to Sams club for one item as I have already posted, the roads are getting very unsafe for bikes, walking I would guess electric bikes too. Also about the range, how do you recharge them if you are low on battery and far from home?

Do that use the same chargers as electric cars?

Links to the statutes, etc. are here:

https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/all?state=OK

This is the first I have heard of this. Looks like it may be claimed on Form 567-A, not sure. Form 567-A (https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/tax/documents/forms/tax-credits/567-A.pdf)

Even Tesla's website which looks to be very comprehensive doesn't mention this credit. You would think a Tesla would qualify but who knows. https://www.tesla.com/support/incentives

Not practical for everyone. What is the range on them? If you want to go to Sams club for one item as I have already posted, the roads are getting very unsafe for bikes, walking I would guess electric bikes too. Also about the range, how do you recharge them if you are low on battery and far from home?

Hi. Electric bike rider here. Unless you have a crazy long commute, an ebike will work great for you range wise. I have a 7 mile each way daily commute to work, so 14 miles round trip. Even on max assist my range is 25-30 miles, but usually it's more like 40-50 at lower assist levels. That said there are SO many ebike models out there with so many variables in terms of battery size, motor size, bike weight, and thus range (there are even some that can take two batteries for extended range), you'll need to seek out what would work best for your needs. But I bet there's a solution out there that suits you.

If you're coming from Edmond or Norman it'll be tighter depending on many factors. For example, when I ride from downtown OKC to my grandson's soccer games in Edmond, that's 30 miles round trip and there are lots of hills, so I usually do have it on max assist and I'm usually empty when I get home. Fortunately, unlike ecars, you can either buy extra batteries or extra chargers. I keep a charger at work in case I forgot to charge at home and need a boost to get home. The chargers plug into standard outlets (they're not that different from a laptop charger). But there have been a few times I've run out of juice due to my own error. Fortunately, I'm on a bicycle! Ebikes are still bicycles and you can still ride them without the juice, you'll just sweat more. I've ridden up to 75 miles in one trip on my ebike without using the assist.

I ride on all roads in OKC (have put more than 7,000 miles on OKC streets in the 2.5 years I've had it). It's doable if you want to do it. There are also cargo bikes for those sams trips. There are several locals that have them and use them for such purposes. I do my grocery shopping with my ebike, but I normally can get my weekly needs into my two rear panniers. If I need more room I have front panniers as well. I have some other specialty attachments that let me carry pretty sizeable cargo for a non-cargo bike. There are also inexpensive trailers you can attach if you need to haul more but don't want a dedicated cargo bike. Having ridden as far north as Covell in Edmond, as far south as OU campus, as far east as Luther, and as far west as Yukon (all from downtown OKC), there is nowhere in the metro I feel I can't go.

Oh by the way there were only 5 days this winter I didn't ride due to weather, and on those days I took the bus. Every other day I rode to work. Agree it's not for everyone. But it can definitely be done by a lot more people than are doing it today. The great thing is there's a local community willing to help those willing to try.

... Fortunately, unlike ecars, you can either buy extra batteries or extra chargers. I keep a charger at work in case I forgot to charge at home and need a boost to get home. The chargers plug into standard outlets (they're not that different from a laptop charger). ...

Not quite true - you can actually buy extra chargers for a car. My MINI came with a 10A or so charger, and I just bought a 32A charger so that it'll charge faster. Once I get the junction box wired for the 32A one, I can carry the 10A one with me and use it anywhere because it plugs into a standard 110V outlet (the 32A one uses a NEMA 14-50 plug).

Shawnw thank you for your reply. Its an eye opener for me. I would have thought that 10 to 15 mile would be the range. Ok I can see this as a commute vehicle with that range and also to make a quick trip to the grocery store. As I said I had no idea of the range.

Education is half the battle. Highly recommend going to some bike shops and test riding. I was a bit of a naysayer until I tried it.

Not quite true - you can actually buy extra chargers for a car. My MINI came with a 10A or so charger, and I just bought a 32A charger so that it'll charge faster. Once I get the junction box wired for the 32A one, I can carry the 10A one with me and use it anywhere because it plugs into a standard 110V outlet (the 32A one uses a NEMA 14-50 plug).

I stand corrected, was based on outdated info.

If anyone out there is considering the electric bike I highly advise you give it a try. I bought one a year ago and it is an absolute blast. 35+ miles of range on a single charge, and I bet I'm realistically getting closer to 45 miles per charge. I live within 3 miles of downtown and I will ride my bike to Scissortail or Midtown for events. Parking is no longer a problem and I believe my commute time is 10 minutes on the e-bike versus 7 minutes in the car. If you're going down on a busy day (like OKC Memorial Marathon or Arts Fest) I believe the time spent not parking more than makes up for the extra minute or two.

Plus, it's just incredibly fun.

Aren't electric vehicles fossil fuel vehicles? I mean, where do they think that electricity comes from? Unicorns? A majority of it comes from coal.

you beat me to it haha

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), fossil fuel–based power plants—burning coal, oil, or natural gas—create nearly 60 percent of the nation's power, while nuclear power accounts for about 20 percent.

you beat me to it haha

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), fossil fuel–based power plants—burning coal, oil, or natural gas—create nearly 60 percent of the nation's power, while nuclear power accounts for about 20 percent.

That ratio is changing every day as more and more solar and wind farms are built, residential and commercial users install their own solar, and coal plants are replaced with natural gas. It is still vastly more efficient to electrically charge 100 vehicles, vs those 100 vehicles powering themselves. The economy of scale of large turbine electrical plants is impossible to meet via single engines.

I reference the infamous meme that makes the rounds every couple of months: The electric charging station being powered by a diesel generator. As funny and ironic as it is, that is still more efficient than all of those vehicles generating their own power. Plus it's just one static source of emissions versus multiple sources dispersing pollution everywhere.

Again, I always reference that I own 3 ICE vehicles. 1 of which is not legal in California (32-year-old carburated motorcycle)...electric isn't there for me yet, but am very quickly running out of reasons to not do it, myself.

Once the ranges get up closer to 1,000 miles, I'll be in.

Most are only around 200-300 which means you have to stop repeatedly on a long road trip, and given charging times (especially if you have to wait behind others) that's really inconvenient.

In a two-car household, it makes much more sense. One ICE for long trips and one electric for everything else.


But I'm not going to own two cars so I'll continue to wait. My car is in great shape and has long been paid off, so I'll just continue to watch as things rapidly evolve. It's amazing how much has changed in just the last few years and I look forward to even better, more efficient options in the near future.

you beat me to it haha

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), fossil fuel–based power plants—burning coal, oil, or natural gas—create nearly 60 percent of the nation's power, while nuclear power accounts for about 20 percent.

Wow, we should definitely transition the energy grid too, I can't believe nobody thought of that before.

Once the ranges get up closer to 1,000 miles, I'll be in.

What non-electric car has a 1000 mile range tho? Most cars are 500 or less (SUVs like 300).

What non-electric car has a 1000 mile range tho? Most cars are 500 or less (SUVs like 300).

Stopping for gas anywhere is easy and fast.

Recharging is neither.

you beat me to it haha

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), fossil fuel–based power plants—burning coal, oil, or natural gas—create nearly 60 percent of the nation's power, while nuclear power accounts for about 20 percent.

Though If you look at the numbers there has been a lot of change over just one decade. Coal in the US is around half of what it was a decade ago. Renewables have been on the rise, now providing more than coal. Natural Gas has risen too, largely as it displaced more coal than renewables have so far. We also have much longer proven reserves of natural gas, and it seems is a much more stable price.

There is also aspects that national percentage does not show, like you get around twice as much energy out of fuel burned in a power plant than you do in a car engine, due to economies of scale and common techniques like routing the steam produced through multiple turbines.

That ratio is changing every day as more and more solar and wind farms are built, residential and commercial users install their own solar, and coal plants are replaced with natural gas. It is still vastly more efficient to electrically charge 100 vehicles, vs those 100 vehicles powering themselves. The economy of scale of large turbine electrical plants is impossible to meet via single engines.

I reference the infamous meme that makes the rounds every couple of months: The electric charging station being powered by a diesel generator. As funny and ironic as it is, that is still more efficient than all of those vehicles generating their own power. Plus it's just one static source of emissions versus multiple sources dispersing pollution everywhere.

Again, I always reference that I own 3 ICE vehicles. 1 of which is not legal in California (32-year-old carburated motorcycle)...electric isn't there for me yet, but am very quickly running out of reasons to not do it, myself.

I hope I live to see the day when oil/coal/fossilfues/nuclear is no longer needed. I guess my pessimism is due to big oil and the lobbying power they have thanks to "citizens united"

Though If you look at the numbers there has been a lot of change over just one decade. Coal in the US is around half of what it was a decade ago. Renewables have been on the rise, now providing more than coal. Natural Gas has risen too, largely as it displaced more coal than renewables have so far. We also have much longer proven reserves of natural gas, and it seems is a much more stable price.

There is also aspects that national percentage does not show, like you get around twice as much energy out of fuel burned in a power plant than you do in a car engine, due to economies of scale and common techniques like routing the steam produced through multiple turbines.

Renewables will hit a cap at some point simply because the intermittency issue isn't solvable on the short and medium time-frames. The renewable market is undergoing significant commodity challenges that aren't going away as demand outpaces supply. Energy density is a massive factor. Not to mention the environmental impact of renewables has largely been ignored, but won't be forever. (Rare earth mineral mining, sheer volume of land needed, bird destruction, soil degradation) There are trade offs to everything. Renewables will be no exception.

Natural gas powerplants use a combined cycle turbine. That's what your referring too when you say "multiple turbines". The first cycle burns the gas and spins the turbine. The second cycle takes the heat from the burned gas, makes steam and powers another one. Electrical efficiency rises to 66%. In other words, 66% of the potential energy from the natural gas is converted to electricity, the rest is heat waste. (33% on a normal turbine)

Some recent examples
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-22/mr-lithiumalr-warns-there-s-not-enough-battery-metal-to-go-around?sref=VEjJXJjm
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/wind-power-s-colossal-market-failure-threatens-climate-fight?srnd=premium&sref=VEjJXJjm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/04/09/eagle-turbine-deaths-settlement/ (people will get mad about this one day)
https://twitter.com/JohnLeePettim13/status/1513430981369282560?s=20&t=5oUw8yOtmsVIu9KBw_JhoA

Stopping for gas anywhere is easy and fast.

Recharging is neither.

It's just a change to routine. Technology will improve.

I'd like to get an electric car at some point for putting around town, and keep the truck for camping/fishing trips out of town. Gotta pay the truck off first, though.
Dumb question - I know solar panels on an electric vehicle could never keep the battery topped off while driving, but are there any manufacturers looking at putting panels on cars for trickle charging while parked somewhere? Are they still too heavy?

They don’t provide enough amperage to charge the batteries efficiently. The roof space of a Tesla has enough to probably reliable charge an iPad or a mobile battery bank.

Once the ranges get up closer to 1,000 miles, I'll be in.

Most are only around 200-300 which means you have to stop repeatedly on a long road trip, and given charging times (especially if you have to wait behind others) that's really inconvenient.

In a two-car household, it makes much more sense. One ICE for long trips and one electric for everything else.


But I'm not going to own two cars so I'll continue to wait. My car is in great shape and has long been paid off, so I'll just continue to watch as things rapidly evolve. It's amazing how much has changed in just the last few years and I look forward to even better, more efficient options in the near future.

Think of all the time you save during the year not having to stop every single week to get gas. Once a week 15 minutes at a time to refuel your car = 13 hours a year at gas stations.

Not to even mention the savings in money from fuel & maintenance.

That tradeoff really isn't worth adding an hour or 2 on a a few long road trip when you need to stop and eat, use the restroom or just unwind from road stress anyway? Seems like you are weighing the long travel inconvenience too heavily. Unless of course if you make long distance travel trips very often.

Also if you haven't test driven an electric car I'd recommend doing so. The power in acceleration is mind opening.

Dp

Dp

15 min to stop and get gas???? under 10 and closer to 5 ..

15 min to stop and get gas???? under 10 and closer to 5 ..

There's also variance in altering your route to and from the gas station on some of those stops. 15 might be a stretch, 10 is probably average.

Hell, its gotten to the point where just getting through the prompt of receipt/no receipt , select grade, insert card and remove quickly, wait not that quickly!, enter zip code, car wash? Takes over a minute by itself.

There's also variance in altering your route to and from the gas station on some of those stops. 15 might be a stretch, 10 is probably average.

Hell, its gotten to the point where just getting through the prompt of receipt/no receipt , select grade, insert card and remove quickly, wait not that quickly!, enter zip code, car wash? Takes over a minute by itself.

“Please see cashier” nope, driving to the next gas station!

They don’t provide enough amperage to charge the batteries efficiently. The roof space of a Tesla has enough to probably reliable charge an iPad or a mobile battery bank.

There's a video out there of someone making bike trailers with full sized solar panels to perpetually charge their ebike and it ended up being three panels, each on a trailer, daisy-chained together, in order to accomplish the goal. If that gives you any indication about the viability of doing it with a car.

17418


(also I have a portable battery with a solar panel on it and it takes an entire day to charge the battery that way if not more)

What non-electric car has a 1000 mile range tho? Most cars are 500 or less (SUVs like 300).

Best I know is the Lucid Touring at 516 miles. Up to 1,050hp though.. so there's that.

https://www.lucidmotors.com/air/configure

I've got a nice ICE. It's paid for. It does have >100,000 miles on it, and with me having to drive to hearings in places like Cheyenne and Idabel, I tack on some miles. I've been looking at cars with ~300 mile ranges. I've gone to the Tesla showroom to check their cars out. Very functional. I did appreciate that they have an app which automatically tells you where you need to recharge on long trips. I imagine in the future, it might even reserve chargers for you as there has been some movement on dealing with customers who overstay their welcomes at chargers, or at dealing with ICE users who park at chargers just to block them. I don't do a lot of out of state travel, but giving up a little time in order to not pay the exorbitant cost of fuel seems a worthy trade off.

I also have rooftop solar and on many days, like yesterday, I exported a net 50kWh and on average, except for in December, I've been a big exporter. I'd rather use that power to fuel my car since I've already paid for the production.

Think of all the time you save during the year not having to stop every single week to get gas. Once a week 15 minutes at a time to refuel your car = 13 hours a year at gas stations.

Not to even mention the savings in money from fuel & maintenance.

That tradeoff really isn't worth adding an hour or 2 on a a few long road trip when you need to stop and eat, use the restroom or just unwind from road stress anyway? Seems like you are weighing the long travel inconvenience too heavily. Unless of course if you make long distance travel trips very often.

Also if you haven't test driven an electric car I'd recommend doing so. The power in acceleration is mind opening.

The jury is still out on the maintenance savings, considering all batteries degrade over time. I've owned a Lexus for 19 years and spent almost no money on it other than periodic cheap oil changes.

Also, the huge value drop of an electric vehicle has to be factored into the cost of ownership.

When you are a one-car household like mine, having to find and wait for an electric charging staying on long trips is a huge hassle. It's not just a matter of the wait, it's having to plan every bit of your trip around where you are going to recharge and stressing out about getting to the next station.

I will eventually get an electric car, but am waiting for this rapidly evolving tech to advance a bit more. I'm darn glad I didn't buy that electric Jaguar that won all types of awards a few years ago, as it is way behind the times now and the resale is horrible.

Yeah but no oil changes, failed gaskets, etc (maintenace wise)

Yeah but no oil changes, failed gaskets, etc (maintenace wise)

Oil changes are less than $100 / year and I've never had any other type of maintenance other than tires and brakes (which would also have to be maintained on an electric car) in 19 years.

I've done the math. At this point in time, a purely electric car would be far more expensive for me, especially when you consider the purchase price premium vs an ICE car and the massive hit you take at resale.

I tend to keep my cars for a long time, and in my personal situation I am just going to continue to drive my almost free current car and wait for things to evolve a bit more.

I would give it stronger consideration if I had a second car.

The jury is still out on the maintenance savings, considering all batteries degrade over time. I've owned a Lexus for 19 years and spent almost no money on it other than periodic cheap oil changes.

Also, the huge value drop of an electric vehicle has to be factored into the cost of ownership.

When you are a one-car household like mine, having to find and wait for an electric charging staying on long trips is a huge hassle. It's not just a matter of the wait, it's having to plan every bit of your trip around where you are going to recharge and stressing out about getting to the next station.

I will eventually get an electric car, but am waiting for this rapidly evolving tech to advance a bit more. I'm darn glad I didn't buy that electric Jaguar that won all types of awards a few years ago, as it is way behind the times now and the resale is horrible.

As I stated before, my MINI's battery is supposed to last ~21 years, it's based on an older style that was used in the i3, haven't actually looked up yet when they started using it to see how long it's lasted so far (I've got another 20.5 years to go before I have anecdotal evidence of my own).

You got lucky with your Lexus, my 2007 Honda Civic had probably a dozen class-action suits and recalls, plus all kinds of little things that broke. But there are *always* oil, coolant, brake, transmission fluid additions/changes for *any* ICE vehicle, not to mention brake pad replacement (or disc resurfacing/replacement). Wife has had to have her ignition coils replaced (2003 Honda), so there are those odd things that happen too. My MINI's maintenance is *literally* add coolant and windshield washer fluid if low - that's it.

As far as stressing out over charging on long trips, there are plenty of level 3 chargers along the interstate system so that you really don't have to stress. Also, apps (not just Tesla's) that tell you where chargers are located, distance to each, etc. let you plan your trip, taking that into consideration.

As far as resale value, I drive all my cars until the wheels fall off (or they get totaled, as has happened twice, neither of them was my fault :)), so I'll probably drive the MINI until it dies. Plan on taking it to Dallas to see Roxy Music in Sep, and already know where the chargers are (the MINI has a range of only about 120 miles, so I have to charge more often than most).

Oil changes are less than $100 / year and I've never had any other type of maintenance other than tires and brakes (which would also have to be maintained on an electric car) in 19 years.

I've done the math. At this point in time, a purely electric car would be far more expensive for me, especially when you consider the purchase price premium vs an ICE car and the massive hit you take at resale.

I tend to keep my cars for a long time, and in my personal situation I am just going to continue to drive my almost free current car and wait for things to evolve a bit more.

I would give it stronger consideration if I had a second car.

Brake parts don't need replacing on an electric car for a ridiculously long time (if ever) because you (almost) never use them due to regenerative braking.

And you get a tax credit from the federal and state governments to help with the increased purchase price.

In 19 years, I've had one full brake job on my Lexus and pads two other times. Can't imagine it being much less frequent on an electric car.

At this point in time, the tax credits generally do not offset the price premium. And as I've said twice, the depreciation on electric cars is monumental and you have to factor that into ownership cost. And complete battery replacement down the line would be far more costly than any type of ICE service or repair.


In terms of products, I am very much an innovator. I had a home PC and laserdisc player before anyone I know; same with a plasma TV and lasik surgery.

But besides your home, a car is the most expensive purchase you'll ever make and thus getting too far out in front of rapidly-changing technology can be very costly.

By being smart about my car purchases (and taking great care of them) among other things, I was able to effectively retire in my early 50's. I'm not going to invest in the most rapidly depreciating asset known to man until I'm sure I'll want to keep it for at least 10 years. And IMO and in my situation, we are not there yet.

In 19 years, I've had one full brake job on my Lexus and pads two other times. Can't imagine it being much less frequent on an electric car.

At this point in time, the tax credits generally do not offset the price premium. And as I've said twice, the depreciation on electric cars is monumental and you have to factor that into ownership cost. And complete battery replacement down the line would be far more costly than any type of ICE service or repair.


In terms of products, I am very much an innovator. I had a laserdisc player before anyone I know; same with a plasma TV and lasic surgery.

But besides your home, a car is the most expensive purchase you'll ever make and thus getting too far out in front of rapidly-changing technology can be very costly.

By being smart about my car purchases (and taking great care of them) among other things, I was able to effectively retire in my early 50's. I'm not going to invest in the most rapidly depreciating asset known to man until I'm sure I'll want to keep it for at least 10 years. And IMO and in my situation, we are not there yet.

Very sage.

They don’t provide enough amperage to charge the batteries efficiently. The roof space of a Tesla has enough to probably reliable charge an iPad or a mobile battery bank.

Yeah this is the energy density problem renewables have.

There is no zero sum, everything in life has trade offs. The annoying thing (as an O&G/construction guy) about the greenies, is they don't seem to believe that or care.

The amount of land and raw materials it takes to generate the same power a nat gas or nuclear power plant can, renewables is exponentially greater needs land wise.

While renewables will continue to grow, this debate is coming soon. What really is the best use of farmland in Kansas? Growing food and running the electricity via nat gas plants OR covering it with wind and solar? Which shreds birds and causes erosion and soil degradation (solar).

Society is 9 meals away from total collapse.

In 19 years, I've had one full brake job on my Lexus and pads two other times. Can't imagine it being much less frequent on an electric car.

At this point in time, the tax credits generally do not offset the price premium. And as I've said twice, the depreciation on electric cars is monumental and you have to factor that into ownership cost. And complete battery replacement down the line would be far more costly than any type of ICE service or repair.


In terms of products, I am very much an innovator. I had a home PC and laserdisc player before anyone I know; same with a plasma TV and lasik surgery.

But besides your home, a car is the most expensive purchase you'll ever make and thus getting too far out in front of rapidly-changing technology can be very costly.

By being smart about my car purchases (and taking great care of them) among other things, I was able to effectively retire in my early 50's. I'm not going to invest in the most rapidly depreciating asset known to man until I'm sure I'll want to keep it for at least 10 years. And IMO and in my situation, we are not there yet.

Depreciation - Since I drive my cars until they die, I don't really care about the depreciation, but yes, it's a factor for most people.

Brakes - I don't drive my cars much, so they get older quicker than they get miles on them, but seems like that's unusually good to only have your brakes changed that few times. My experience in the MINI is that so far, out of maybe 500 miles of driving (don't remember for sure), I've had to step on my brake pedal literally less than 20 times (and that's only to hold it when I'm in Drive and facing downhill at a stop).

Tax credits - My MINI had an MSRP of $30,000 (they don't haggle, you just choose your options and buy it), and with a federal tax credit of $7500 and state tax credit of $5500 (I'll be able to take advantage of the full amount since I pay that much tax to them annually), that brings the price down to $17,000. I'd say that almost half of the price being offset with tax credits is totally acceptable. The tax credit amount will vary based on which manufacturer (some aren't eligible any longer due to having sold over 200,000 electric vehicles), how much tax you pay, the battery capacity, and maybe a few other things.

So yeah, pros and cons, and everybody's situation is different, but the MINI has worked out perfectly great so far, and I expect it to for a long time to come, just wanted to clarify some of the information.

^

I respect all that and just like hybrids, for many the price premium is more than offset by less fossil fuel consumption and all that entails.

I should add that in addition to obviously being a tech nut, I have been a devout lover of cars since I was a kid.

I bought my first Mustang before my 16th birthday. I've had 2 Porsches, 2 Audis, a BMW, 3 Lexuses and an Acura. Cars are one of my obsessions and I know as much about them as anyone.

I also have an MBA in Finance and have held executive positions in that field for decades. I live my life through spreadsheets.

About a decade ago I sat down and tried to figure out how much I've spent on cars in my adult life. The numbers were staggering and nauseating. If most people actually went through a similar honest accounting, they would be horrified.

I also realized the only reason I have ever bought a new car is that I wanted it at the time, which only lasted a handful of years until I wanted yet another new model. I decided I needed to get off this marketing-driven treadmill in all aspects of my life, otherwise I'd forever have to work at jobs I generally hated.

It also helps that modern cars are little miracles. If you take decent care of them, you can keep them almost forever.

I bought my current Lexus after most of the safety revolution had taken place: multiple airbags, crumple zones, anti-lock brakes. And I'm glad I didn't spring for the in-dash navigation because it's laughable by today's standards and I just use my phone (which I integrated into the stereo system) anyway.


I read about cars every single day and go to look at them all the time. But my car is almost like new and other than the insane consumerism I am now trying to avoid, I have zero reasons to buy.

That also means I have the great luxury of just sitting back and waiting for the right time and right product to come along -- actually, we all do. And in the meantime, I don't have to do anything in my life I don't want (like working for someone else or worrying about who I may piss off by publishing information) in order to feed an endless cycle of mostly empty consumption.


My dad's great advice that I took far too long to appreciate: “Buy nice things, take good care of them, keep them a long time.”

Oil changes are less than $100 / year and I've never had any other type of maintenance other than tires and brakes (which would also have to be maintained on an electric car) in 19 years.

I've done the math. At this point in time, a purely electric car would be far more expensive for me, especially when you consider the purchase price premium vs an ICE car and the massive hit you take at resale.

I tend to keep my cars for a long time, and in my personal situation I am just going to continue to drive my almost free current car and wait for things to evolve a bit more.

I would give it stronger consideration if I had a second car.

Not disagreeing with anything you said there, but I don't know where you're getting your oil changes at and how you can make that price point these days. I don't even drive anymore but back in January my daughter left her car with me when she went on a trip and I got an oil change for her (used Top 5 based on learning about them here) and was aghast at the cost now a days.

Not disagreeing with anything you said there, but I don't know where you're getting your oil changes at and how you can make that price point these days. I don't even drive anymore but back in January my daughter left her car with me when she went on a trip and I got an oil change for her (used Top 5 based on learning about them here) and was aghast at the cost now a days.

A complete oil change at Take 5 is about $50 if you download one of their coupons.

I also buy a few air filters through eBay for a few dollars each and when they inevitably show me a dirty one and press hard for the up-sale, I hand one to them and ask them to pop it in.

I use them about twice a year.

I should add that in addition to obviously being a tech nut, I have been a devout lover of cars since I was a kid.

I bought my first Mustang before my 16th birthday. I've had 2 Porsches, 2 Audis, a BMW, 3 Lexuses and an Acura. Cars are one of my obsessions and I know as much about them as anyone.

I also have an MBA in Finance and have held executive positions in that field for decades. I live my life through spreadsheets.

About a decade ago I sat down and tried to figure out how much I've spent on cars in my adult life. The numbers were staggering and nauseating. If most people actually went through a similar honest accounting, they would be horrified.

I also realized the only reason I have ever bought a new car is that I wanted it at the time, which only lasted a handful of years until I wanted yet another new model. I decided I needed to get off this marketing-driven treadmill in all aspects of my life, otherwise I'd forever have to work at jobs I generally hated.

It also helps that modern cars are little miracles. If you take decent care of them, you can keep them almost forever.

I bought my current Lexus after most of the safety revolution had taken place: multiple airbags, crumple zones, anti-lock brakes. And I'm glad I didn't spring for the in-dash navigation because it's laughable by today's standards and I just use my phone (which I integrated into the stereo system) anyway.


I read about cars every single day and go to look at them all the time. But my car is almost like new and other than the insane consumerism I am now trying to avoid, I have zero reasons to buy.

That also means I have the great luxury of just sitting back and waiting for the right time and right product to come along -- actually, we all do. And in the meantime, I don't have to do anything in my life I don't want (like working for someone else) in order to feed an endless cycle of mostly empty consumption.


My dad's great advice that I took far too long to appreciate: “Buy nice things, take good care of them, keep them a long time.”

Since you're a car nut, you should love the torque and acceleration of EVs (almost scares me sometimes, not quite used to it yet). And just to be clear, I'm not a buy-one-now-they're-great staunch advocate of EVs, it was just pretty much a coincidence that I got mine - car got totaled, no 2-door models that aren't Porsche, BMW, etc. and out of my price range, wife mentioned MINI, I like the styling, and found out they had an electric model, and thought "why not?".

I know I would love the instant torque. There are many things inherently superior in an electric car and it's why virtually every single auto manufacturer is putting all their R&D into that technology.

If I had to buy a car today, my top choice would probably be the Kia EV6.

But I also know that if I wait 2-3 more years, the choices will offer a far better price/benefit ratio.


To me, electric cars will be very much like Moore's law of computing: the tech will continue to rapidly escalate in short time increments. We've already seen that thus far. The important difference being is you can buy a great PC for $500 and a new electric car is incredibly expensive.