I don't think SLC is in the same breath as OKC. I think their religion is whacky but seems most Mormon conservatives are more open minded than what you describe and mention in every post possible in OKC. Plus, skiing in your backyard and a major airline hub.

Utah is experiencing tremendous growth because their population, unlike Oklahoma's, is one of the most highly educated in the country.

Well that doesn't fit bchris' narrative that anywhere there is religion no one wants to go to

Well that doesn't fit bchris' narrative that anywhere there is religion no one wants to go to

I mentioned education in my post that I removed. I believe that is a big piece of what is holding this city back. Anyways, my posting history here is a little too controversial for me to say what I wanted to say and not be attacked personally so I am done with this thread.

I mentioned education in my post that I removed. I believe that is a big piece of what is holding this city back. Anyways, my posting history here is a little too controversial for me to say what I wanted to say and not be attacked personally so I am done with this thread.

I agree that there is much within fundamentalist Christianity I don't agree with and, there are times, that it holds back progress. At the same time, there needs to be an understanding that a large part of the population practices this and those who dont agree with it need to stop making fun, discriminating against it and otherwise demonstrating intolerance of faith and it's practices. The left seems to want to bend over backwards to Islam and those who practice it - yet tolerate practices within Islam that are far more extreme in the name of understanding and avoidance of being offensive.

I mentioned education in my post that I removed. I believe that is a big piece of what is holding this city back. Anyways, my posting history here is a little too controversial for me to say what I wanted to say and not be attacked personally so I am done with this thread.

bchris...you're dead on about education, that's why we moved.

I mentioned education in my post that I removed. I believe that is a big piece of what is holding this city back. Anyways, my posting history here is a little too controversial for me to say what I wanted to say and not be attacked personally so I am done with this thread.Be careful, logic is not permitted here and anything negative you say against OKC even though it is completely reasonable and warranted will not be tolerated. Halt your illegal activities at once.

Be careful, logic is not permitted here and anything negative you say against OKC even though it is completely reasonable and warranted will not be tolerated. Halt your illegal activities at once.

Logic is one thing. Blindly blaming everything on the church of Sally Kern is another (although sometimes in OK is warranted)

Man, IDK what you guys are smoking, but Bchris is dead on. Our state is radically behind most states because of our religious leadership. And not just broadly religious, but Southern Baptist. If we were a state dominated by ANY other denomination/religion, we would be much more productive, progressive, successful.

Unfortunately our state has been led by and is currently being led by likeminded individuals. We are the living embodiment of the people you see in the news and think, "there is no way people can be that backwardly religious".

And it's not getting any better. All the religious intolerance taught in 1950 at Norman First Baptist Church is the exact same religious intolerance taught at Edmond First Baptist today. The fact we have leaders like Mary Fallin, and people like Dan Fisher who want to replace her is just a total embarrassment. Next up we'll have John Bennett running for Governor.

What's funny is, I think a few decades ago they all voted blue. Abortion is the issue that pushed them red, everything else since the 90's has just been fuel to the fire.

The fact they crosses are still displayed on the towers is laughable. Any other major cities do that? Houston and Dallas do not anymore. I believe they stopped awhile ago.

Pretty sure I saw one in Nashville a couple weeks ago, but honestly I was partaking in quite a bit of beverages that weekend so I could be mistaken.

I think Houston had theirs up as recently as a couple years ago but no longer have them. I seem to recall Tucson having a cross lit but that’s the only city I can think of.

If the people who own the towers want to display crosses then they have the right to do so. Tolerance goes both ways.

The fact they crosses are still displayed on the towers is laughable. Any other major cities do that? Houston and Dallas do not anymore. I believe they stopped awhile ago.

So you are arguing against capitalism? If they own the building, they can do whatever the heck they want with the lights on the building, as long as it doesn't break any laws. Which a cross doesn't.

If the people who own the towers want to display crosses then they have the right to do so. Tolerance goes both ways.
This. A great number of people these days are forgetting that tolerance is a 2-way street.

So you are arguing against capitalism? If they own the building, they can do whatever the heck they want with the lights on the building, as long as it doesn't break any laws. Which a cross doesn't.Nowhere in my post did I say they should be forced to stop displaying crosses. I just should said it’s laughbale that they do. Stop putting words in my mouth.

If the people who own the towers want to display crosses then they have the right to do so. Tolerance goes both ways.
Amen.

I agree that there is much within fundamentalist Christianity I don't agree with and, there are times, that it holds back progress. At the same time, there needs to be an understanding that a large part of the population practices this and those who dont agree with it need to stop making fun, discriminating against it and otherwise demonstrating intolerance of faith and it's practices. The left seems to want to bend over backwards to Islam and those who practice it - yet tolerate practices within Islam that are far more extreme in the name of understanding and avoidance of being offensive.
That remark is like saying all right wingers hate religion because they support the KKK and white separatists who hate Jews and Catholics. Because the left seems more tolerant of diversification and everyone’s right to practice their own religion doesn’t mean they support extremism that is violent or abridges others’ rights, from the right, left, or middle.

Nowhere in my post did I say they should be forced to stop displaying crosses. I just should said it’s laughbale that they do. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Why laughable? That the leadership feels strongly about something? You obviously feel strongly anti Christian and aren’t afraid to show it. Why shouldn’t they?

So I'm confused. Does all the religion bashing and quasi-political ranting mean yes the urban revival is over, or no the urban revival is not over?

Why laughable? That the leadership feels strongly about something? You obviously feel strongly anti Christian and aren’t afraid to show it. Why shouldn’t they?
I’m not anti Christian and I believe in god.

Why do you always play devils advocate?

Edit: to answer your question, because in my view, it makes OKC look like a backwards community. I’ve seen these huge crosses displayed on downtown skyscrapers in no other city. I’m embarrassed having friends around especially people I bring from LA to show OKC. They don’t say anything out of respect, but it’s obviously they are thinking “what the f@ck.” So maybe laughable isn’t the right term. I can better describe it as cringy or embarrassing.

I’m not anti Christian and I believe in god.

Why do you always play devils advocate?

Edit: to answer your question, because in my view, it makes OKC look like a backwards community. I’ve seen these huge crosses displayed on downtown skyscrapers in no other city. I’m embarrassed having friends around especially people I bring from LA to show OKC. They don’t say anything out of respect, but it’s obviously they are thinking “what the f@ck.” So maybe laughable isn’t the right term. I can better describe it as cringy or embarrassing.

Maybe if we put a pentagram on our buildings, they would feel better? Obviously, I am being facetious. But how on Earth does it make OKC seem backwards? Is Jesus seen as a hick icon?

I can see both sides of the crosses. On one hand, it's an OKC tradition and a lot of people would be upset if it ceased. The building owners also have the choice to do it or not and that is their choice. On the other hand it does play to OKC's Bible Belt, intolerant stereotypes. I have mentioned in other threads that the city's skyline its image. This is just my opinion but it would be nice if they would fix the year-round lighting so the skyline isn't so dark and also if they would do lighting schemes for other special days/causes (in addition to the crosses) like they do in other cities.

That remark is like saying all right wingers hate religion because they support the KKK and white separatists who hate Jews and Catholics. Because the left seems more tolerant of diversification and everyone’s right to practice their own religion doesn’t mean they support extremism that is violent or abridges others’ rights, from the right, left, or middle.

I'm not sure I understood what you wrote but OI think you took it backwards.

But how on Earth does it make OKC seem backwards? Is Jesus seen as a hick icon?

If you or somebody close to you belonged to a demographic that frequently gets demonized by the religious wing of the Republican Party, i.e. atheists, Muslims, the LGBT community, etc, it might be easier to understand the objection. None of this would be an issue if it wasn't for Christianity being turned into a political weapon by the far right in this state and country. Still, I support the building owners' right to display them. If anything, there should be some kind of incentive for them to fix the year-round lighting.

I’m not anti Christian and I believe in god.

Why do you always play devils advocate?

Edit: to answer your question, because in my view, it makes OKC look like a backwards community. I’ve seen these huge crosses displayed on downtown skyscrapers in no other city. I’m embarrassed having friends around especially people I bring from LA to show OKC. They don’t say anything out of respect, but it’s obviously they are thinking “what the f@ck.” So maybe laughable isn’t the right term. I can better describe it as cringy or embarrassing.

So, does Denver qualify as backwards because crosses are displayed on the mountainsides? There is a very bright one right above Denver.

So I'm confused. Does all the religion bashing and quasi-political ranting mean yes the urban revival is over, or no the urban revival is not over?

It never started in south okc. Regarding north of the river, I guess it depends on the whether or not another billion + will spent by the City of OKC.

It was nice this weekend for my sister in law who preaches "tolerance" all the time to poke fun at us for going to Christmas Eve service to hear all the "lies."

People suck ass on both sides, no one bothers to show respect anymore.

Edit- this was in response to bchris post from 1051. I agree with what he said there

So, does Denver qualify as backwards because crosses are displayed on the mountainsides? There is a very bright one right above Denver.

They are not on their buildings downtown. So no.

Maybe if we put a pentagram on our buildings, they would feel better? Obviously, I am being facetious. But how on Earth does it make OKC seem backwards? Is Jesus seen as a hick icon?Religion is something less prominent in highly educated areas of the country and where you do find a lot of religious people it tends to be in the less educated states. But I'm sure some poster here can find an example that goes against what I'm saying like having crosses on a mountain somewhere in Colorado.

:ot:

Religion is something less prominent in highly educated areas of the country and where you do find a lot of religious people it tends to be in the less educated states. But I'm sure some poster here can find an example that goes against what I'm saying like having crosses on a mountain somewhere in Colorado.
"where you do find a lot of religious people it tends to be in the less educated states" WOW! I can't believe someone could say that and be taken seriously, or take themselves seriously.

"where you do find a lot of religious people it tends to be in the less educated states" WOW! I can't believe someone could say that and be taken seriously, or take themselves seriously.

Panda's pretty much right.

http://www.pewforum.org/2017/04/26/in-america-does-more-education-equal-less-religion/

"On one hand, among U.S. adults overall, higher levels of education are linked with lower levels of religious commitment by some measures, such as belief in God, how often people pray and how important they say religion is to them. On the other hand, Americans with college degrees report attending religious services as often as Americans with less education."

"Looking at the U.S. public as a whole, however, the answer to the question of whether more education is correlated with less religion appears to be yes. Among all U.S. adults, college graduates are considerably less likely than those who have less education to say religion is “very important” in their lives: Fewer than half of college graduates (46%) say this, compared with nearly six-in-ten of those with no more than a high school education (58%).

Highly educated Americans also are less inclined than others to say they believe in God with absolute certainty and to pray on a daily basis. And, when asked about their religious identity, college graduates are more likely than others to describe themselves as atheists or agnostics (11% of college grads vs. 4% of U.S. adults with a high school education or less)."

Panda's pretty much right.

http://www.pewforum.org/2017/04/26/in-america-does-more-education-equal-less-religion/

"On one hand, among U.S. adults overall, higher levels of education are linked with lower levels of religious commitment by some measures, such as belief in God, how often people pray and how important they say religion is to them. On the other hand, Americans with college degrees report attending religious services as often as Americans with less education."

"Looking at the U.S. public as a whole, however, the answer to the question of whether more education is correlated with less religion appears to be yes. Among all U.S. adults, college graduates are considerably less likely than those who have less education to say religion is “very important” in their lives: Fewer than half of college graduates (46%) say this, compared with nearly six-in-ten of those with no more than a high school education (58%).

Highly educated Americans also are less inclined than others to say they believe in God with absolute certainty and to pray on a daily basis. And, when asked about their religious identity, college graduates are more likely than others to describe themselves as atheists or agnostics (11% of college grads vs. 4% of U.S. adults with a high school education or less)."

And all that means nothing. If a building owner wants to put a cross on his building, there is not a single solitary law or reason why me he can't. Not one. If Panda doesn't like it, he can buy his own building.

The fact they crosses are still displayed on the towers is laughable. Any other major cities do that? Houston and Dallas do not anymore. I believe they stopped awhile ago.

Don't know if this counts as "major city" but I'm pretty sure I saw one in New Orleans just a week ago on one of their skyscrapers.

If a building owner wants to put a cross on his building, there is not a single solitary law or reason why me he can't. Not one.

There have been exactly zero people in this thread who have claimed otherwise. But cool.

They are not on their buildings downtown. So no.

LOL. Whats the difference? Its still the Christian religious symbol towering over a city. Or maybe its OK on a mountain because its not man-made? God made the mountain so we can put the symbol of God on the mountain?

LOL. Whats the difference? Its still the Christian religious symbol towering over a city. Or maybe its OK on a mountain because its not man-made? God made the mountain so we can put the symbol of God on the mountain?Fair enough.

Wow, this thread is a complete disaster. Might as well lock it up at this point.

"where you do find a lot of religious people it tends to be in the less educated states" WOW! I can't believe someone could say that and be taken seriously, or take themselves seriously.

Stats back this up. I kind of thought this was common knowledge. Utah might be the only outlier, but for the rest of the states that have the highest rates of church attendance, prayer and self-claims of being religious there is a strong correlation to being low on education rankings. Such as Bama, Miss, and Okla

Stats back this up. I kind of thought this was common knowledge. Utah might be the only outlier, but for the rest of the states that have the highest rates of church attendance, prayer and self-claims of being religious there is a strong correlation to being low on education rankings. Such as Bama, Miss, and Okla

I would say this is true for fundamentalism. Most fundamentalists deny accepted science, are intolerant of differing beliefs, and push for public policy that favors them at the expense of everyone else. Education is lower priority because a lot of fundamentalists homeschool or send their kids to private, church-based school. Notice that their priority when it comes to education is policies that make it easier to homeschool or promote "school choice." Take fundamentalist denominations out of the equation and it becomes a little muddier. However, it is true that Oklahoma, Alabama, and Mississippi are three states dominated by the Southern Baptist and Independent Fundamental Baptist denominations and all three states have similar problems.

Correlation and causality are not the same.

New 2017 State population growth estimates released by Census Bureau. Oklahoma 0.4 or approximately +9,500. Not very far from negative growth which hasn't occurred since the dust bowl.

Likely due to oil and gas slowdown, particularly in the field. People go where there are jobs.

It never started in south okc. Regarding north of the river, I guess it depends on the whether or not another billion + will spent by the City of OKC.

Aside from Capitol Hill, us south siders don't really have any "urban" areas to work with - though you're right, the Urban Revival has come what feels like excruciatingly slowly to the Capitol Hill area.

Likely due to oil and gas slowdown, particularly in the field. People go where there are jobs.

% population change from 4/10 through 7/17. Numbers from Census Bureau.
Oklahoma 4.8 %
North Dakota 12.3%
Texas 12.6%

All oil fields aren’t homogenous and Texas is a more diversified economy.

Aside from Capitol Hill, us south siders don't really have any "urban" areas to work with - though you're right, the Urban Revival has come what feels like excruciatingly slowly to the Capitol Hill area.

Urban as in city. South OKC is just as urban as the 10 Penn area. Over a billion dollars have been spent to revive the downtown, midtown, uptown areas. While areas south of the river have received ... maintenance facilities.

All oil fields aren’t homogenous and Texas is a more diversified economy.
And North Dakota? What other industries are there?

Urban as in city. South OKC is just as urban as the 10 Penn area. Over a billion dollars have been spent to revive the downtown, midtown, uptown areas. While areas south of the river have received ... maintenance facilities.

Not exactly... We are seeing some investment down here, just not nearly as much as other areas of the city. Investment we have seen: The MAPS3 senior center being built at SW 39th and S Walker Ave, or the Southern Oaks Health and Wellness Center, at (basically) SW 68th and S Walker, or the extensive renovations at Woodson Park. Plus a good number of sidewalks along major city streets, too. I really want to see more, though. Much more.

South OKC has seen a drip compared to what has been spent and will continue to be spent north of the river. The MAPS 3 senior center received less funding than the north side senior center. Look at the park facilities north side compared to what we have south side and the disparity is readily apparent. I will hold judgement on the Southern Oaks Health and Wellness Center till it has been operational for awhile. I appreciate your optimism but I have lost all faith in the City of OKC.

And North Dakota? What other industries are there?

This from last year: FARGO—North Dakota's population boom, an echo of the oil boom, faded significantly over the past year as the state saw more people leave than enter in search of jobs and opportunities.

North Dakota gained 1,117 people in 2016, reaching a record population of 757,952, or a one-year increase of 0.15 percent, according to Census Bureau estimates released Tuesday, Dec. 20.

The modest population gain was in spite of the fact North Dakota experienced a net migration loss estimated at 4,684, reversing a run of significant migration gains as the state's robust energy development lured job seekers from other states.

And North Dakota? What other industries are there?

Agriculture.

Selling used missile silos.

This conversation, if you can call it that, has drastically left the initial narrative and discussion.

I totally disagree with the park facilities being superior on the North side of OKC. South has Earlywine Park (awesome pool that North doesn't have), they also have Southlakes Park just to the West of Earlywine.

I totally disagree with the park facilities being superior on the North side of OKC. South has Earlywine Park (awesome pool that North doesn't have), they also have Southlakes Park just to the West of Earlywine.

Man, I understand that that area is technically South OKC, but I believe they are talking primarily about the area of OKC north of I-240 and south of the river, sort of the real south OKC. The Earlywine area is really more of a Moore thing (I get it's in OKC, but that entire area is Westmoore schools,
which directly affects the decency of development there). South OKC is sandwiched between areas getting far more positive work for them. Moore to the South, Mustang/Yukon to the west and Downtown and such to the North. But I suppose southside is getting all the industrial stuff around Hobby Lobby.

Edit - didn't mention East of southside. Midwest City has a ton more development and goings on than South OKC too.

South OKC is sandwiched between areas getting far more positive work for them.

What would you like to see and where? If you make an area defined by I40 on the north, I240 on the south, I44 on the west, and I35 on the east, where and what could be done?

Re-do Woodson?

North - Will Rogers Gardens, Martin Nature Center, Myriad Gardens, two community pools, two community centers, a dog park, and the new Scissortail Park. For the Strong Neighborhood Initiative all three selected neighborhoods were north side. The area south of I240 while part of the Moore Public School System is very much south OKC. I have never understood why people insist on lumping it together with Moore. It's not like the City of Moore pays for any improvements to the area.

Our urban revival has just hit full swing, and I don't see CBD and surrounding areas slowing down. With big attractions not even started or finished (convention center, park, streetcar, etc.) there is so much room for developers tonswclop and new companies to locate in the area.