That doesn't cover the difference. You can live in Denton for the same price as Norman pretty easily.

don't leave out the sky high property taxes in TX

Further more, what the government tries to ban, it loses control over it. Do you want abortion steered out of control by banning it?

There are plenty of places on the internet to talk about abortion. There are not many places to talk about Oklahoma's failing education system. I understand that abortion is important to you, but can we not derail this thread?

On Topic, where is a good resource to find out if a candidate backs education and has the gut to follow through with promises?

The problem is and has always been a disconnect between what the people SAY they want the government to do (schools, roads, health, etc.) and what they are willing to pay for. This is true at all levels of government.

It's their sincere conviction that their eternal salvation is at stake if they do not

Then you understand not one thing about what it means to be a Christian, and I would respectfully ask you stop posting authoritatively in that vein as a result. My vote in any given election, on any given issue, has *not one thread of bearing whatsoever* on the determination of my eternal salvation.

I'm not going to derail this thread further on this topic, but this comment demanded a response, and I will leave it at that. Laying sweeping, generalized blame for our state's current situation on a variety of issues at the feet of one religious group shouldn't be tolerated in this forum.

don't leave out the sky high property taxes in TX

Isn't it like 1% of your property? They also don't have income tax. I'm sure it all evens out.

My family all lives in Texas (not in Houston or DFW) and they live very comparatively to us in Oklahoma.

Just for the record, the property tax rate in Texas is 1.81% and in Oklahoma it is 1.05%

And for most states, property tax is the primary funding vehicle for education. In Oklahoma, 72% of all property taxes go to public education. Looks like it's about 67% in Texas.

As for tax burden by state, according to this chart for 2017, Oklahoma is 47th in the country by percentage when you combine property, sales and income tax; a figure well lower than Texas:

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494/

Oklahoma total of 6.61% and Texas 7.99%.


When you combine our low taxation rates with low property values and low incomes, you can see why we have so little money to spend.

Then you understand not one thing about what it means to be a Christian, and I would respectfully ask you stop posting authoritatively in that vein as a result. My vote in any given election, on any given issue, has *not one thread of bearing whatsoever* on the determination of my eternal salvation.

I'm not going to derail this thread further on this topic, but this comment demanded a response, and I will leave it at that. Laying sweeping, generalized blame for our state's current situation on a variety of issues at the feet of one religious group shouldn't be tolerated in this forum.

I grew up in the Independent Fundamental Baptist church and my father is a preacher. There are indeed a lot of people who will say that a person cannot be a Christian if they don't vote Republican. Most in the denomination I grew up in believe its a sin to even vote for a pro-life Democrat since the Democratic Party supports abortion. Shortly before I stopped going to church in 2015, I was doing Christian counseling and my counselor literally told me with conviction that it's impossible for somebody to be a Christian and have voted for Obama.

What we have with Christianity is a "no true Scottsman" fallacy. Most Christians believe that those who are more right-wing doctrinally and authoritarian than them are Pharisees while those who are more liberal are apostates. You see this mindset across the entire spectrum.

As for tax burden by state, according to this chart for 2017, Oklahoma is 47th in the country by percentage when you combine property, sales and income tax; a figure well lower than Texas:

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494/

Oklahoma total of 6.61% and Texas 7.99%.


When you combine our low taxation rates with low property values and low incomes, you can see why we have so little money to spend.

Most people don't feel like taxes are lower in Oklahoma because our tax mixture is so regressive. Heavy, heavy sales taxes and use taxes mixed with a flat income tax, minor property taxes and very low production taxes mean that taxes hit the poor and middle class much harder than in other places.

Most people don't feel like taxes are lower in Oklahoma because our tax mixture is so regressive. Heavy, heavy sales taxes and use taxes mixed with a flat income tax, minor property taxes and very low production taxes mean that taxes hit the poor and middle class much harder than in other places.

Exactly right.

Our sales tax is about average among all states but our property tax rate -- which again primarily funds schools -- is the lowest in the country, with Alabama being the only state even close.

Exactly right.

Our sales tax is about average among all states but our property tax rate -- which again primarily funds schools -- is the lowest in the country, with Alabama being the only state even close.

Our sales tax rate is very high, sixth highest.
https://taxfoundation.org/state-and-local-sales-tax-rates-2015/


But that's not the whole story, what makes our rate even higher is that we charge sales taxes on food, which only five other states do.
https://1lz3sq2g71xv1ij3mj13d04u-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Sales_Tax_by_State_Groceries_tax_exempt_1280x720.p ng

Only one state has a higher sales tax than we do and also charges sales tax on food, and that's again Alabama, another state that seemingly hates its own citizens.

Most people don't feel like taxes are lower in Oklahoma because our tax mixture is so regressive. Heavy, heavy sales taxes and use taxes mixed with a flat income tax, minor property taxes and very low production taxes mean that taxes hit the poor and middle class much harder than in other places.

I think you will find wild deviations in property taxes. I surely don't consider mine "minor."

It's apparently a good place to live and work and raise a family while constantly coming on here and bitching and moaning about what a horrible, backwards, <gasp> conservative, unwalkable, redneck, parking garage mecca place it is to live, work and raise a family. Some day I hope everyone realizes OKC is light-years ahead of where it was 30 years ago.

This is part of the strangeness - OKC is definitely light-years ahead of when I left in 1995 due to not enough bookstores, not enough club shows/concerts, not enough good restaurants, etc. Now it's *way* different - we have at least 50 *local* restaurants on our list to get to, along with more opening up every week, some new bookstores, The Criterion, Jones Assembly, Tower, coffee shops, etc. But you *also* have tons of parking garages, a city government that is so beholden to O&G/big business they can't see daylight 'cos they're so far up their a**, a massively broken legislature and education system, rednecks (these aren't specific to OK, we had them in WA and IL when we lived there), massively conservative and "Christian" (there are some good Christians out there, but there are also lots of "Christians") people that don't really like any non-white/"Christian" people, etc.

I certainly can't go through life without seeing both sides as fairly as I can, and other people should strive to do the same. There's plenty of good and plenty of bad here in OKC, and we generally praise the good and bitch and moan about the bad here on OKCTalk.

I think you will find wild deviations in property taxes. I surely don't consider mine "minor."

Property tax rates are set at the state level.

The only differences are due to voter-approved bond issues for school districts, which are temporary.


Nobody likes to pay taxes but there is no disputing that OK property tax rates are incredibly low, as is our over all tax burden.

Property tax rates are set at the state level.

The only differences are due to voter-approved bond issues for school districts, which are temporary.

Nobody likes to pay taxes but there is no disputing that OK property tax rates are incredibly low, as is our over all tax burden.


I really don't care where they are set - the point is that to paint a broad brush and say "property taxes are low" is just overlooking a reality - that "low state rate" is mythical to someone in a district where the additional local rates make the actual dollars paid higher. Just because it's "temporary" or "voter-approved" or whatever phrase is used to diffuse their reality doesn't make the dollar voluntary or less difficult to pay.

I really don't care where they are set - the point is that to paint a broad brush and say "property taxes are low" is just overlooking a reality - that "low state rate" is mythical to someone in a district where the additional local rates make the actual dollars paid higher. Just because it's "temporary" or "voter-approved" or whatever phrase is used to diffuse their reality doesn't make the dollar voluntary or less difficult to pay.

And even with the occasional school district bond add-on's OK property taxes are still incredibly low compared to anywhere else.

I really don't care where they are set - the point is that to paint a broad brush and say "property taxes are low" is just overlooking a reality - that "low state rate" is mythical to someone in a district where the additional local rates make the actual dollars paid higher. Just because it's "temporary" or "voter-approved" or whatever phrase is used to diffuse their reality doesn't make the dollar voluntary or less difficult to pay.

So your main voting issue is abortion, which is a federal question and not a state issue, and you are upset over your not really very high property taxes and not our bankrupt state and schools.

THIS is the problem in Oklahoma.

^^^ "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax the man behind the tree."

And even with the occasional school district bond add-on's OK property taxes are still incredibly low compared to anywhere else.

Outrage at low property taxes, yet none at the regressive tax on groceries. Go figure.

The problem is and has always been a disconnect between what the people SAY they want the government to do (schools, roads, health, etc.) and what they are willing to pay for. This is true at all levels of government.

Yeah, but Oklahomans and their legislators have been more unwilling to do these things than almost any other state. It was a stunning failure that as schools are falling apart that the legislature did nothing last session... and while a lot of Oklahomans say this is bad, they don't really motivated enough to change it. In other states, it doesn't seem citizens let it get to this point of failure and disaster. For example, Kansas hit rock bottom with their ineffective tax cuts that gutted public spending and there has been a backlash. Hopefully, a backlash is coming in Oklahoma, but I'm not convinced there is the will to do it.

Outrage at low property taxes, yet none at the regressive tax on groceries. Go figure.

It’s the most regressive tax of all. The poorer a family is the higher percentage of their income they pay for food. In Oklahoma the effective tax rate is the higher to the more poor you are, not lower. This is nothing short of evil.

Yeah, but Oklahomans and their legislators have been more unwilling to do these things than almost any other state. It was a stunning failure that as schools are falling apart that the legislature did nothing last session... and while a lot of Oklahomans say this is bad, they don't really motivated enought to change it. In other states, it doesn't seem citizens don't let it get to this point of failure and disaster. For example, Kansas hit rock bottom with their ineffective tax cuts that gutted public spending and there has been a backlash. Hopefully, a backlash is coming in Oklahoma, but I'm not convinced their is the will to do it.

Things have definitely changed but I'm not sure how much.

I can't post any news on social media without a lot of people commenting "why are we spending money on this when our schools are in crisis?".

I'm hopeful people have finally started to understand the gravity.

Oklahoma taxes groceries (something only 14 states do) and does it at the standard 4.5% rate, which is a very high rate as previously noted.


https://taxfoundation.org/which-states-tax-groceries/

The following is a list of the states that do tax groceries, and if applicable, which ones apply a special rate on grocery items. All other states do not tax groceries.

States that tax groceries (rate if not fully taxed): Alabama, Arkansas (3%), Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois (1%), Kansas, Mississippi, Missouri (1.225%), Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee (5.5%), Utah (1.75%), Virginia (1.5% + 1% local option tax), and West Virginia (5%).

I really don't care where they are set - the point is that to paint a broad brush and say "property taxes are low" is just overlooking a reality - that "low state rate" is mythical to someone in a district where the additional local rates make the actual dollars paid higher. Just because it's "temporary" or "voter-approved" or whatever phrase is used to diffuse their reality doesn't make the dollar voluntary or less difficult to pay.

But, to be fair, you also live in Zip Code 73170, which is the highest income per capita zip code in the OKC Metro--higher than Nichols Hills and Gaillardia!! It makes sense that property taxes would be high in such an elite zip code.

So your main voting issue is abortion, which is a federal question and not a state issue, and you are upset over your not really very high property taxes and not our bankrupt state and schools.

THIS is the problem in Oklahoma.

Huh!?!?!? Where on earth did *that* come from? I've not said one thing about abortion in this thread. I replied to *one* generalized comment about Christianity.

And you conclude I'm not upset about our schools? Really? One-third of our state's budget goes to education, yet teachers are paid like paupers and are buying their own supplies. I get that. You know *why* I get that? My *wife* is a teacher. I fume at my property taxes just as she walks in the door with a bag full of markers or notebooks or whatever else the school is out of or the parents can't buy, so I'm realizing I'm paying at the federal, state, and local level - then paying AGAIN when she goes out and buys supplies. So please save me the indignation about not caring about our bankrupt schools.

I want the wellhead tax raised to regional averages. I want unnecessary and excessive corporate incentives taken out. I also want this state to figure out how it can live within its means. It doesn't mean you have to be an extreme left-wing or extreme right-wing - there's *got* to be some semblance of a direction in the middle. Somewhere.

^^^ "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax the man behind the tree."

And there with it goes the implication that I'm not being taxed at all, which obviously isn't true. Next strawman.

Here's a neutral third-party's assessment of national property tax rates. Oklahoma lands almost exactly in the middle (24th).

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-highest-and-lowest-property-taxes/11585/#real-estate

Here's a neutral third-party's assessment of national property tax rates. Oklahoma lands almost exactly in the middle (24th).

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-highest-and-lowest-property-taxes/11585/#real-estate

Same site I originally posted and their methodology in these calculations has nothing to do with % of tax paid on property.

It takes median property tax payment and divides by median house price. Has nothing to do with what people actually pay in tax.

You really should quit while behind here.

I grew up in the Independent Fundamental Baptist church and my father is a preacher. There are indeed a lot of people who will say that a person cannot be a Christian if they don't vote Republican. Most in the denomination I grew up in believe its a sin to even vote for a pro-life Democrat since the Democratic Party supports abortion. Shortly before I stopped going to church in 2015, I was doing Christian counseling and my counselor literally told me with conviction that it's impossible for somebody to be a Christian and have voted for Obama.

What we have with Christianity is a "no true Scottsman" fallacy. Most Christians believe that those who are more right-wing doctrinally and authoritarian than them are Pharisees while those who are more liberal are apostates. You see this mindset across the entire spectrum.

Not to derail, but as a side note, coincidentally read this today, which backs up your narrative:

So much for Christian charity: Evangelicals blame the poor for poverty, which makes them a lot like other Republicans (http://www.salon.com/2017/08/10/so-much-for-christian-charity-evangelicals-blame-the-poor-for-poverty-which-makes-them-a-lot-like-other-republicans/)

"New research published in the Journal of Religion and Health suggests that Christian evangelical voters are more likely to support Donald Trump and the Republican Party because they have been conditioned by their religion to be irrational and thus inherently suspicious of empirical reality and reason."

Note that the article pretty specifically speaks about Christian *evangelicals* (which I label as "Christian" since in general, they don't have real Christian values), not Christians in general.

Same site I originally posted and their methodology in these calculations have nothing to do with % of tax paid on property.

It takes median property tax payment and divides by median house price. Has nothing to do with what people actually pay in tax.

You really should quit while behind here.

Why is it OK as a source for your argument, but not for mine? It was an effort to put something objective into the discussion. Your original link was for a chart on *total* tax burden, mine was focused on property taxes (and auto taxes, to be complete, but that was ancillary to the discussion here).

Why is it OK as a source for your argument, but not for mine? It was an effort to put something objective into the discussion. Your original link was for a chart on *total* tax burden, mine was focused on property taxes (and auto taxes, to be complete, but that was ancillary to the discussion here).

Because your link has nothing to do with taxes actually paid. It's just some random calculation that has nothing to do with anything.

The link I posted broke out the tax burden by percentage by category including property tax.

You are just arguing against common sense because you don't like the objective answers being provided.


And BTW, Oklahoma's crazy low property tax rates also include a limitation on how much the value of a home -- and thus the property tax paid -- can increase per year. That limit is 5%, even if your home's actual appreciation is more than that. There is no downward limit if a house goes down in value.

So, the low rates themselves are based only on an estimated value that is kept artificially low until the house is sold, then the proper market value is reset.

Oklahoma is not all that bad of a state as long as you don't need state help from welfare, or are a state employee, such as a teacher.

Or have kids in public schools, or in college, or drive on roads, or need healthcare, or care about people with mental illness and other disabilities, etc., etc.... Or care about the long-term economic consequences of horrible education and vocation training.

Tax discussions always talk about 'welfare' when it is a tiny sliver of any government budget and is used a red herring for perceived over spending while having little bearing on the overall budgets.

Because your link has nothing to do with taxes actually paid. It's just some random calculation that has nothing to do with anything.


No, it was based on the *median* value among actual property tax payments - and median from a large sample is a perfectly reasonable statistical tool and prevents wild values at either end from skewing as can occur with just a mean value. So you may not agree with their methodology, but to say its has "nothing to do with anything" is factually false.
[/quote]



The link I posted broke out the tax burden by percentage by category including property tax.

You are just arguing against common sense because you don't like the objective answers being provided.


Hardly objective, because you like one form of calculation from a given site, yet dislike the other from the same site merely because it doesn't support your opinion. You keep trying to insist that there's absolutely no argument against your position, and if someone opposes you, you belittle them for "arguing against common sense" and implying your *own* argument is beyond reproach. I'll toss out a *different* site (https://taxfoundation.org/how-high-are-property-taxes-your-state-2016/) that calculates *real* taxes paid (in consideration of your argument against WalletHub's methodology) against home value, and puts OK at #29.

Bottom line? We can hurl competing statistics at each other all day and wave implied empiricism at our own sources, but it's not going to get us anywhere except generate mutual hard feelings. Let's agree that neither of us is a paragon on this issue, that we disagree on the generalizations being made, and move on.



And BTW, Oklahoma's crazy low property tax rates also include a limitation on how much the value of a home -- and thus the property tax paid -- can increase per year. That limit is 5%, even if your home's actual appreciation is more than that. There is no downward limit if a house goes down in value.

So, the low rates themselves are based only on an estimated value that is kept artificially low until the house is sold, then the proper market value is reset.

I'm not going to take the time to explain while pulling the median property tax and diving by median home values has absolutely zero bearing on how much *you* and any individual tax payer actually gives the government, which is what we are discussing.

I took a statistics class many years ago. The first statement on the first day from the professors mouth was - 'you can prove or disprove just about anything depending on your slant with statistics'.

https://media.tenor.com/images/54451401d52c0dd2fe9ee5752857d53c/tenor.gif

Fact is our property taxes are relatively low. Also fact is that if you live outside of OKC and Tulsa, you are likely to have an assessor who on average undervalues properties. If properties were properly valued across the state, mostly in rural parts, our school funding would look a lot rosier. But now that there is a 5% cap, it will take eons to get it up. And the fact that is that these counties elect good ol buddy assessors who dont want to raise values.

As for eliminating waste, I cant remember the exact numbers but the state has eliminated state employees by the multi-thousands in the last 15 years or so. Theres always waste but we have eliminated a ton of it. We have also just bowed down to our corporate and chamber rulers when it comes to dropping or eliminating some taxes over last decade. The middle and lower class have essentially seen no tax relief during this time, its all gone to higher earners.

Low property taxes also favor big business because commercial property gets taxed at the same rates as homes.

https://media.tenor.com/images/54451401d52c0dd2fe9ee5752857d53c/tenor.gif

lol I was thinking about posting the same gif! Lots of salt on the forums the past few days!!

I took a statistics class many years ago. The first statement on the first day from the professors mouth was - 'you can prove or disprove just about anything depending on your slant with statistics'.
I think it was Mark Twain that said, "statistics are like a cheap whore, once you throw them down there, you can do about anything you want with them".

28.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot!

FFS, really?

Oklahoma officials request hypothetical budget cut results (http://www.swtimes.com/news/20170829/oklahoma-officials-request-hypothetical-budget-cut-results)

"Oklahoma lawmakers have sent letters to state agencies requesting they give hypothetical results for a more than 3 percent budget cut."

Found that here:

http://okpolicy.org/know-oklahoma-officials-request-hypothetical-budget-cut-results/

Other great news in that post includes this:

"Oklahomans with mental health disorders will get fewer hours of case management under a new rule approved Thursday by the Oklahoma Health Care Authority. Currently, SoonerCare pays for up to six hours and 15 minutes of case management services per month. The new rule will reduce that to four hours of services per year."

"Oklahoma ranks No. 1 nationally for nonmedical use of painkillers for all age groups 12 and older in the past year"

"“We’re just short of what I and several of us who have been involved in this would classify as a crisis,” said Mark Nelson, vice president of the Oklahoma City Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 123"

Red states are increasingly suspicious of education, especially higher education.

And it shows in how those states fund their educational systems. Of course, Oklahoma is just about the worst of the worst in that regard.

I don't think it is the education itself the right has a problem with, but the too-close-to-insane politically correct happenings on so many campuses across the country. in some locations this insanity is becoming more and more institutionalized. It is nearly a daily occurrence that we hear of a group or some professor on a campus demanding things most of us would have thought completely irrational a few years ago. This isn't only happening on obscure NE Liberal Arts school or long-time left wing bastions such as UC Berkeley. It's happening at places such as the U of Missouri, the U of Iowa. Violent groups supress free speech and free thought yet the police turn their backs. Radical Professors hide behind their Tenure and cry Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression while demanding segregation of the races, self-loathing policies and violence against conservatives. Is it any wonder when state Universities promote radical left policies and openly ridicule and even visciously attack anything or anyone who promotes a conservative point of view, states where conservatives rule have a great suspision of higher education? Some of these types of things are creeping into high schools. I am not a wildly conservative person but I see examples from schools in my own state that makes me wish I could withhold my taxes from those schools. In all, I think conservatives are holding true to principles by having suspicion of any large bureaucratic institution.

It's apparently a good place to live and work and raise a family while constantly coming on here and bitching and moaning about what a horrible, backwards, <gasp> conservative, unwalkable, redneck, parking garage mecca place it is to live, work and raise a family. Some day I hope everyone realizes OKC is light-years ahead of where it was 30 years ago.
I think the majority of Oklahomans are doing okay or better. But they can't relate to the minority of people who work several jobs, have poor health and can't afford treatment, or waiting on long lists for help. The majority in turn elect legislators, who are successful in life and healthy, while also unable to relate to the needs of the minority, who make Oklahoma look bad in quality of life stats. So I bet legislators give much more attention to helping their business buddies and donors who are already well off become more so. And that also includes protecting them. Perish the thought that the very successful be further penalized by raising taxes on their high incomes.

Until the majority of Oklahomans start feeling the effects of bad governing from the state capitol, I don't expect much change there, including it being likely the governor's position will remain Republican from the 2018 election. I've found that all the bitching about Oklahoma government doesn't translate into incumbent Republicans getting booted out come election day. Gov. Fallin should have been booted out in 2014. Anyway, I'll be watching the election results next year, hoping I'm wrong.

I was surprised at the outcomes of our last batch of state questions, and I have very reserved cautious optimism because of them. But I'm fully prepared to be let down as well.

I grew up in the Independent Fundamental Baptist church and my father is a preacher. There are indeed a lot of people who will say that a person cannot be a Christian if they don't vote Republican. Most in the denomination I grew up in believe its a sin to even vote for a pro-life Democrat since the Democratic Party supports abortion. Shortly before I stopped going to church in 2015, I was doing Christian counseling and my counselor literally told me with conviction that it's impossible for somebody to be a Christian and have voted for Obama.

What we have with Christianity is a "no true Scottsman" fallacy. Most Christians believe that those who are more right-wing doctrinally and authoritarian than them are Pharisees while those who are more liberal are apostates. You see this mindset across the entire spectrum.

Chris, I understand that you are still young and you are dealing with the zeal of the convert and a not fully formed pre-frontal cortex, so you might not be able to fully understand this post until you are older, but the way you attack Christians makes your policy goals harder to achieve. I hope for society's sake you see the error you are making over and over again online.

References:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zeal_of_the_convert

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051

I don't think it is the education itself the right has a problem with, but the too-close-to-insane politically correct happenings on so many campuses across the country. in some locations this insanity is becoming more and more institutionalized. It is nearly a daily occurrence that we hear of a group or some professor on a campus demanding things most of us would have thought completely irrational a few years ago. This isn't only happening on obscure NE Liberal Arts school or long-time left wing bastions such as UC Berkeley. It's happening at places such as the U of Missouri, the U of Iowa. Violent groups supress free speech and free thought yet the police turn their backs. Radical Professors hide behind their Tenure and cry Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression while demanding segregation of the races, self-loathing policies and violence against conservatives. Is it any wonder when state Universities promote radical left policies and openly ridicule and even visciously attack anything or anyone who promotes a conservative point of view, states where conservatives rule have a great suspision of higher education? Some of these types of things are creeping into high schools. I am not a wildly conservative person but I see examples from schools in my own state that makes me wish I could withhold my taxes from those schools. In all, I think conservatives are holding true to principles by having suspicion of any large bureaucratic institution.
This self riteous bs from the right is a big part of the problem. They now view civility and anti bullying as "politically correct". It is a term they hide behind when they can't figure out why acting crude, offending people and being bigoted isn't a God given right. And who needs education and advanced culture....that's just for the unholy. The privileged starts losing their advantages and having to act like the rest and they actually believe that is discrimination.

Anti free speech? Give us a break. There have always been limits to free speech in a responsible society. Protesting against Nazis and supremacists who promote division, hatred, and the essential dissolution of a civil society is to be applauded. Giving free reign to hate groups is not the same as free speech. It's time real Christians need to do more than preach....they need to practice God's ways, not their own.

...
Until the majority of Oklahomans start feeling the effects of bad governing from the state capitol, I don't expect much change there, including it being likely the governor's position will remain Republican from the 2018 election. ...

THIS is the problem - I can't count how many times I've heard people say "Well, it doesn't affect me, so I don't really care", which is a massively sh*tty attitude to have.

Chris, I understand that you are still young and you are dealing with the zeal of the convert and a not fully formed pre-frontal cortex, so you might not be able to fully understand this post until you are older, but the way you attack Christians makes your policy goals harder to achieve. I hope for society's sake you see the error you are making over and over again online.

References:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zeal_of_the_convert

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051

LOL, and so you send him to a page that says: "This page contains too many unsourced statements and needs to be improved.
Zeal of the convert could use some help. Please research the article's assertions. Whatever is credible should be sourced, and what is not should be removed."

While Chris gets a little monotonous in singling out the Christian Right for much of the blame on Oklahoma's problems in this modern age, I think he is generally right. Christian Right legislators, such as Ritze for starters, who originate and get passed unconstitutional bills, deserve to be attacked.

So your main voting issue is abortion, which is a federal question and not a state issue, and you are upset over your not really very high property taxes and not our bankrupt state and schools.

THIS is the problem in Oklahoma.
+1! His logic makes no sense at all.

I don't think it is the education itself the right has a problem with, but the too-close-to-insane politically correct happenings on so many campuses across the country. in some locations this insanity is becoming more and more institutionalized. It is nearly a daily occurrence that we hear of a group or some professor on a campus demanding things most of us would have thought completely irrational a few years ago. This isn't only happening on obscure NE Liberal Arts school or long-time left wing bastions such as UC Berkeley. It's happening at places such as the U of Missouri, the U of Iowa. Violent groups supress free speech and free thought yet the police turn their backs. Radical Professors hide behind their Tenure and cry Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression while demanding segregation of the races, self-loathing policies and violence against conservatives. Is it any wonder when state Universities promote radical left policies and openly ridicule and even visciously attack anything or anyone who promotes a conservative point of view, states where conservatives rule have a great suspision of higher education? Some of these types of things are creeping into high schools. I am not a wildly conservative person but I see examples from schools in my own state that makes me wish I could withhold my taxes from those schools. In all, I think conservatives are holding true to principles by having suspicion of any large bureaucratic institution.

As a college professor who has worked on three different college campuses and work with professors from all over the United States, it is really frustrating to read your comments. There are online entities who have made it their goal of demonizing higher ed and professors as radicals. I was attacked by a right-wong website a couple years ago for creating a google doc where teachers could share how they could respond to Ferguson in their classrooms. That was literally all I did. They didn't want to know anything about my views, but just demonize me for encouraging educators to have conversations about difficult topics. I am sure these are the types of stories you're reading. Most stories are blown out of proportion or outright fabrications. Even for cases of true unethical misconduct, they're extremely rare. Assuming anything you claim is widespread based off a few stories is unsupported. I could make sweeping claims for any profession based off a few news stories. I work with great people and lots of people from all political backgrounds. I am available to discuss these issues further and share my perspective as someone who actually spends every day in higher ed, but otherwise, please take these comments such as these to the political section. I'd rather not be insulted. I've had several conservative friends post similar rants recently and the closed-mindedness is getting old. I would never stereotype and insult an entire profession or group like that. We can disagree, but I'd appreciate you at least being respectful. I promise I will.

As a college professor who has worked on three different college campuses and work with professors from all over the United States, it is really frustrating to read your comments. There are online entities who have made it their goal of demonizing higher ed and professors as radicals. I was attacked by a right-wong website a couple years ago for creating a google doc where teachers could share how they could respond to Ferguson in their classrooms. That was literally all I did. They didn't want to know anything about my views, but just demonize me for encouraging educators to have conversations about difficult topics. I am sure these are the types of stories you're reading. Most stories are blown out of proportion or outright fabrications. Even for cases of true unethical misconduct, they're extremely rare. Assuming anything you claim is widespread based off a few stories is unsupported. I could make sweeping claims for any profession based off a few news stories. I work with great people and lots of people from all political backgrounds. I am available to discuss these issues further and share my perspective as someone who actually spends every day in higher ed, but otherwise, please take these comments such as these to the political section. I'd rather not be insulted. I've had several conservative friends post similar rants recently and the closed-mindedness is getting old. I would never stereotype and insult an entire profession or group like that. We can disagree, but I'd appreciate you at least being respectful. I promise I will.
I taught with Dan for several years and my youngest daughter was a student in his class at one time. I may not always agree with everything he says, but, I know of no one in the education business that is more highly respected than Dan Krutka.

I hate that Oklahoma gets this kind of press constantly.

The solutions to the problems in this state are very simple, but the republicans at the capitol can't seem to figure it out. We need a change of leadership.

I taught with Dan for several years and my youngest daughter was a student in his class at one time. I may not always agree with everything he says, but, I know of no one in the education business that is more highly respected than Dan Krutka.

That's very nice to say. Your daughter was a great student too and I absolutely loved my time at Westmoore High School. I already refer to it as my "golden years" and I'm just in my 30s. Ha ha. We had teachers who were very different, but everyone cared about the school and students, particularly those teachers who helped "found" the school in 1988.

In a democracy, we don't have to agree on our politics, but we have to respect each other. I have met so many incredible teachers AND professors that I just get upset when they're stereotyped or put down. Both professions work long hours for less pay than they deserve. And this is why I'm so upset about the state of education in Oklahoma. I care deeply about it and it's sad for the state how many Oklahoma teachers I meet in North Texas.

Anyway, thanks making this positive again. I really hope Oklahoma can get its act together. There are still so many good people depending on it.

I hate that Oklahoma gets this kind of press constantly.

The solutions to the problems in this state are very simple, but the republicans at the capitol can't seem to figure it out. We need a change of leadership.

Hopefully a third solution and not just back to the folks who ran it into the ground for 70 years.

So your main voting issue is abortion, which is a federal question and not a state issue, and you are upset over your not really very high property taxes and not our bankrupt state and schools.

THIS is the problem in Oklahoma.

I'd say it's a bit loose to consider abortion to be a strictly federal question. Sure, the leading jurisprudence is the result of decisions handed down in the U.S. Supreme Court which relied heavily on constitutional analysis, but every one of those cases asked the Court to consider a particular state's attempt at regulating abortion. Planned Parenthood v. Casey is a pretty fair restatement of where the law stands today.

The plurality opinion in ​Casey stated that it was upholding what it called the "essential holding" of Roe. The essential holding consists of three parts:

(1) Women have the right to choose to have an abortion prior to viability and to do so without undue interference from the State;
(2) the State can restrict the abortion procedure post viability, so long as the law contains exceptions for pregnancies which endanger the woman’s life or health; and
(3) the State has legitimate interests from the outset of the pregnancy in protecting the health of the woman and the life of the fetus that may become a child.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_Parenthood_v._Casey#cite_note-6)

The plurality asserted that the fundamental right to abortion is grounded in the Due Process Clause (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_Process_Clause) of the Fourteenth Amendment, and the plurality reiterated what the Court had said in Eisenstadt v. Baird (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenstadt_v._Baird): "if the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child."

I hate that Oklahoma gets this kind of press constantly.

The solutions to the problems in this state are very simple, but the republicans at the capitol can't seem to figure it out. We need a change of leadership.
People need to run for legislature to find new leadership. If not, you have incumbents without opposition on election day and that speaks even louder to them that they must be doing a damned good job of running state government. Also silence is consent.

Norman, Oklahoma and Denton, Texas are very comparable cities. In Norman, a starting teacher makes $34,000 and in Denton a starting teacher makes $52,000. Add in that the facilities and resources are dramatically better and Oklahoma is starting to resemble a third world country... and it's by choice. I work in north Texas and I meet teachers who left Oklahoma all the time. The state is absolutely in a state of failure.

This is an incredibly ill-informed opinion, and one that I honestly hope is some sort of joke. Either way it is in very poor taste to compare the situation of someone in America making a reasonable wage to the plight of the billions around the world who live in abject poverty.

So your main voting issue is abortion, which is a federal question and not a state issue, and you are upset over your not really very high property taxes and not our bankrupt state and schools.

THIS is the problem in Oklahoma.


It’s the most regressive tax of all. The poorer a family is the higher percentage of their income they pay for food. In Oklahoma the effective tax rate is the higher to the more poor you are, not lower. This is nothing short of evil.

Dave literally never said that. Also, I totally agree with the main point of your second post, but calling the other side "evil" is hyperbolic, makes you seem crazy, and is not a good way to make converts. I've only ventured into the politics forum a couple times and thus have only a passing familiarity with Swake, so someone please tell me if I'm wasting my breath.

This is an incredibly ill-informed opinion, and one that I honestly hope is some sort of joke. Either way it is in very poor taste to compare the situation of someone in America making a reasonable wage to the plight of the billions around the world who live in abject poverty.
But if America is such a rich country, one of the richest in the world, Idabel, Oklahoma shouldn't look so poor and run down. I didn't know what poverty could look like in Oklahoma until I drove through that town.