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Roger S
08-03-2017, 01:19 PM
Especially since they only brought him in after the public uproar.

You don't go hire expensive property attorneys to not get what you want.

Exactly and it's been my experience that he usually gets his clients what they want.

stile99
08-03-2017, 01:26 PM
Braums will look really bad if they go ahead with plans & I honestly doubt they will demolish the buildings.

What, and please be precise, has Braum's done recently to indicate they give the tiniest crap what people think?

Colbafone
08-03-2017, 01:34 PM
What, and please be precise, has Braum's done recently to indicate they give the tiniest crap what people think?

Oh this is easy. They made their burgers smaller to try to help out with our (Nation's and State's) growing obesity rates. They then went above and beyond and included shakes as typical beverage option for their meals, taking away nasty drinks like soda pops. Really a good move on their part. They're truly an Oklahoma pioneer in terms of offering smaller portions and healthier options for their patrons.

Colbafone
08-03-2017, 01:37 PM
And I haven't even mentioned the fact that they are trying to tear down the "Devil's Brothel" the Hi-Lo Club. Good, staunch Christian values Braums has.

Pete
08-03-2017, 02:18 PM
BTW, when I talked to Janis Powers (chair of the Planning Commission) about this Braum's matter she said that she always strongly encourages an applicant of anything even slightly controversial to meet with nearby neighbors.

I get this feeling this is all about checking that box rather any real intention to compromise on the demolition.

dankrutka
08-03-2017, 02:26 PM
Braum's Corporate Office number is 405-478-1656. I recommend calling and leaving a message with them... regularly. I just did so.

jerrywall
08-03-2017, 02:41 PM
I will say this... if the current owners aren't willing to do the investment to repair the structures there, and if there isn't another buyer interested in restoring them, as much as I love the unique architecture, I don't think they should be saved just so we can watch them continue to crumble and decay.

I still think braum's is a poor fit at that location (and doesn't make sense from a traffic flow standpoint).

barrettd
08-03-2017, 02:57 PM
I will say this... if the current owners aren't willing to do the investment to repair the structures there, and if there isn't another buyer interested in restoring them, as much as I love the unique architecture, I don't think they should be saved just so we can watch them continue to crumble and decay.

I still think braum's is a poor fit at that location (and doesn't make sense from a traffic flow standpoint).

Agreed with all of this.

Pete
08-03-2017, 02:58 PM
My understanding is the current owner has turned down multiple offers to buy in the past.

I also believe he may have a personal relationship with a member of the Braum's family.

dankrutka
08-03-2017, 02:59 PM
I will say this... if the current owners aren't willing to do the investment to repair the structures there, and if there isn't another buyer interested in restoring them, as much as I love the unique architecture, I don't think they should be saved just so we can watch them continue to crumble and decay.

First, building have been in far, far worse condition and made great comebacks (see 9th street houses). Second, aren't there operating businesses currently occupying the building, including a historic one? You're talking about the building like it's unocupied. There's just no good reason to tear down this building, especially in a city that's already torn down half it's history.

jerrywall
08-03-2017, 03:10 PM
First, building have been in far, far worse condition and made great comebacks (see 9th street houses). Second, aren't there operating businesses currently occupying the building, including a historic one? You're talking about the building like it's unocupied. There's just no good reason to tear down this building, especially in a city that's already torn down half it's history.

I'm not saying there's a good reason, and I'd rather it be saved. I just don't know if it will. And it's condition has deteriorated and I can't imagine the costs to repair. So there are 4 options. Either someone is going to purchase the building besides Braum's and fix it up, Braum's buys it and demolishes it, someone else buys it and demolishes it, the current owner or the new owner keep it in the condition it's in now and it continues to deteriorate. The current owners obviously aren't interested in restoring the building, and we have no idea if the rumored other folks who've offered to buy the building were planning on fixing it up or demolishing it.

My ideal scenario is it's restored. But failing that, well, I just hope the unique signage and such will be saved and displayed somewhere.

dankrutka
08-03-2017, 03:19 PM
The problem with these four scenarios is you imply the building is in dire condition and needs immediate rehab. I don't agree that the situation is that dire. If it happens in two, four, or six years, that's fine. There's no need for any group to be rash and demand an immediate solution to improving the building long term. Let's not have another situation where a corporation creates a false narrative that requires immediate demolition as Devon dishonestly did to make way for the new tower.

gopokes88
08-03-2017, 06:20 PM
Braum's Corporate Office number is 405-478-1656. I recommend calling and leaving a message with them... regularly. I just did so.

I called them and let them know I'll never be eating or spending any money there ever again.

traxx
08-04-2017, 08:24 AM
I'm not saying there's a good reason, and I'd rather it be saved. I just don't know if it will. And it's condition has deteriorated and I can't imagine the costs to repair. So there are 4 options. Either someone is going to purchase the building besides Braum's and fix it up, Braum's buys it and demolishes it, someone else buys it and demolishes it, the current owner or the new owner keep it in the condition it's in now and it continues to deteriorate. The current owners obviously aren't interested in restoring the building, and we have no idea if the rumored other folks who've offered to buy the building were planning on fixing it up or demolishing it.

My ideal scenario is it's restored. But failing that, well, I just hope the unique signage and such will be saved and displayed somewhere.

The buildings are in less than stellar condition, I'll agree with that. But do you expect a Braum's to be any better? Have you been in a Braum's lately?

jerrywall
08-04-2017, 08:40 AM
I already said Braums is a poor fit for this location so I won't respond to those strawmen.

traxx
08-04-2017, 09:21 AM
It was tongue in cheek.

jerrywall
08-04-2017, 09:28 AM
It was tongue in cheek.

Ok, sorry then. I felt like people were getting too involved in my devil's advocate comments.

gurantula35
08-04-2017, 10:57 AM
Pete, after the NFL game was over last night, I was doing dishes and heard OKC Talk on the TV. Looked up and they (KFOR) were talking about this development and crediting you. I felt proud in that moment. Excited for you and the partnership you have with them.

Pete
08-04-2017, 11:07 AM
Pete, after the NFL game was over last night, I was doing dishes and heard OKC Talk on the TV. Looked up and they (KFOR) were talking about this development and crediting you. I felt proud in that moment. Excited for you and the partnership you have with them.

Thanks!

KFOR has been wonderful to work with.

traxx
08-04-2017, 02:29 PM
Ok, sorry then. I felt like people were getting too involved in my devil's advocate comments.

We cool

Questor
08-06-2017, 10:18 AM
Oh this is easy. They made their burgers smaller to try to help out with our (Nation's and State's) growing obesity rates. They then went above and beyond and included shakes as typical beverage option for their meals, taking away nasty drinks like soda pops. Really a good move on their part. They're truly an Oklahoma pioneer in terms of offering smaller portions and healthier options for their patrons.

The interesting thing about that change... it seemed to coincidentally coincide with the deadline for them having to list their calories per item on their menu boards as required by the ACA legislation. I'm guessing the sheer terror of having to list the calories of a third pound burger was keeping someone up at night considering they were mum on calories until after the change.

Questor
08-06-2017, 10:24 AM
I understand the outrage and agree with it... but if this city couldn't save a world-respected architectural gem there is no way this structure will be saved. The government is just not on the side of preservation here... they say they are, but there are no serious laws or ordinances in place to prevent what is about to happen.

It's really time to stop with the angry phone calls to lawyers and PR folks for companies that don't care and are going to get their way anyway. Folks really need to take the time to understand what historic preservation means in other cities and force these issues with our local councilors.

Pete
08-06-2017, 10:35 AM
There is an overwhelming local support for big business across local (and certainly state) government and it's various extensions through committees and other arms.

They are almost always going to defer to the wants and desires of big biz, which should be incredibly obvious in virtually every single decision made.

And as citizens, we keep electing people who are very clear on this broader issue, both through their words and actions.

Until that changes, these types of issues are foregone conclusions.

Questor
08-06-2017, 10:48 AM
^^ Yep! Totally agree. And you know, somehow the word has to get out that you can at the same time be pro-business and also have some modicum of standards in place that prevent things like this from happening. It doesn't have to be an either/or choice. We can be very pro business but at the same time have exceptions for exceptional places and architecture.

Pete
08-06-2017, 11:36 AM
^^ Yep! Totally agree. And you know, somehow the word has to get out that you can at the same time be pro-business and also have some modicum of standards in place that prevent things like this from happening. It doesn't have to be an either/or choice. We can be very pro business but at the same time have exceptions for exceptional places and architecture.

There is a lot more to being pro business than just letting a few organizations and their leaders get their way on everything.

In fact, you could strongly argue that many of those decisions have led to bleeding education dry and that is already hurting our reputation and will continue to impact the amount of skilled workers and entrepreneurs.

SoonerQueen
08-06-2017, 03:18 PM
If Braums wants to put a store in that area, why can't they use the old Horn Seed Co. area? That is vacant and no one would argue about that.

Teo9969
08-06-2017, 06:48 PM
If Braums wants to put a store in that area, why can't they use the old Horn Seed Co. area? That is vacant and no one would argue about that.

Meh...In the long run, that Horn Seed location might be one of the most important lots in the city. If the street car extension ends up running up to 63rd/Western via Classen, then the Horn Seed location provides the best opportunity for a multi-modal hub that changes from Street Car to Bus Rapid transit up NW Expressway.

TheTravellers
08-06-2017, 07:22 PM
If Braums wants to put a store in that area, why can't they use the old Horn Seed Co. area? That is vacant and no one would argue about that.

There's been talk of personal relationships between the owners of Braum's and the Classen Circle buildings, so that's most likely why Braum's isn't considering other options.

moose
08-08-2017, 12:31 PM
The place is a dump. Tear it down.

shawnw
08-09-2017, 12:57 PM
And replace it with another dump?

dankrutka
08-09-2017, 02:14 PM
The place is a dump. Tear it down.

I know this has been discussed throughout the thread, but it bears repeating. While I disagree this building is an architectural "dump" because I rather like it, it also is an important building historically, particuarly because HiLo provided a place of support for the LGBTQ community when social, legal, and even familial discrimination were the norm. Just saying, "The place is a dump. Tear it down," without any nuance or discussion just feels disrespectful to OKC's LGBTQ community. Moreover, we're talking about replacing this with actual garbage architecture in a standardized Braum's that could go on any property anywhere. I've called Braum's corporate office and told them I'll never eat there again if they tear this building down and I mean it.

king183
08-09-2017, 02:28 PM
I know this has been discussed throughout the thread, but it bears repeating. While I disagree this building is an architectural "dump" because I rather like it, it also is an important building historically, particuarly because HiLo provided a place of support for the LGBTQ community when social, legal, and even familial discrimination were the norm. Just saying, "The place is a dump. Tear it down," without any nuance or discussion just feels disrespectful to OKC's LGBTQ community. Moreover, we're talking about replacing this with actual garbage architecture in a standardized Braum's that could go on any property anywhere. I've called Braum's corporate office and told them I'll never eat there again if they tear this building down and I mean it.

This is a key point I think gets overlooked. Braums stores are god awful buildings. They look like strip mall cutouts and are built of cheap, disposable material. Even if you think the current building looks like junk, why would you want it torn down and replaced with junk of lesser architectural value?

MagzOK
08-12-2017, 07:24 AM
I will shop at the new Braum's. We stop in there for Milk and small things all the time inbetween our weekend grocery visits. This new Braum's will be right up Western and much closer than any other ones. I think the new Braum's will look better and may prompt other new growth around there. Next thing that needs to be taken out is that gross looking car lot to the south of there on approach to NW Expressway. I might think differently if the HiLo was restored and looked better. My parents met there in the 1960s and a 53 year marriage was born and continues to this day, but that doesn't mean I don't think the place should be saved in its current condition. In addition to new stuff being put in there, I think restoring a huge traffic circle there would be magnificent with maybe nice statue of some of the founders of OKC standing right there in the middle. And not to mention, I seem to remember reading (maybe even somewhere on this website) several years ago that some either had or nearly had bought up all the homes that back up to NW Expressway there between Classen and where the new OnCue is going (toward the west), and has plans to eventually tear down all those homes and build multi-story mixed use facing NW Expressway there. I may be wrong, but I do think I remember reading that.

rezman
08-12-2017, 09:16 AM
I also make quick stops at Braum's. While many of their older stores are looking long in the tooth, this one at 164th and N Penn is a nice store and I stop there fairly often when I'm coming from that direction.

https://www.instantstreetview.com/@35.638465,-97.547738,335.2h,-1.22p,2.09z

Pete
08-12-2017, 10:17 AM
From https://www.instagram.com/theokaysee/; prints for sale:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/classencircle081217.jpg

Pete
09-18-2017, 10:26 AM
Reminder of the community meeting tonight at 6:30 at Crown Heights Christian Church, 4020 N. Western.

gopokes88
09-18-2017, 10:18 PM
All you really need to know is this.

https://twitter.com/JordannLucero/status/909932681533804545

Pete
09-19-2017, 07:40 AM
Everyone who went said: 1) Braum's is determined to go forward with this project as submitted; 2) the meeting was clearly just to 'check a box' as an appeasement to the planning commission; and 3) they hired David Box to sit and take crap in one meeting then do exactly as they planned all along.

Ross MacLochness
09-19-2017, 09:11 AM
sad..

shawnw
09-19-2017, 09:19 AM
The most compelling thing I heard aside from what has already been stated was that the owner of the drum room said he had previously tried to buy the Donnay building but couldn't come to terms with the owners and that if Braum's would back off he would try again to buy/save the building.

Ross MacLochness
09-19-2017, 09:23 AM
^^^ That's good news, it would be great if they could work something out. However, it seems this group needs leadership. The only way to win this is for folks to act together, pool resources, and hire an attorney that knows how the city operates. Maybe they could hire David Box?? Oh f... wait... Passionate speeches serve no function at a zoning meeting.

traxx
09-19-2017, 09:38 AM
I haven't been to Braum's in months except to buy milk or meat. Where can I go to buy milk and meat that I can trust to be hormone free? I've got a 9 year old daughter and feel like hormone infused meat and milk contribute to precocious puberty and so try to buy products free of that.

Jersey Boss
09-19-2017, 09:45 AM
I haven't been to Braum's in months except to buy milk or meat. Where can I go to buy milk and meat that I can trust to be hormone free? I've got a 9 year old daughter and feel like hormone infused meat and milk contribute to precocious puberty and so try to buy products free of that.

Sprouts? I buy Horizon milk there that is hormone free. Don't know about the meat though.

traxx
09-19-2017, 10:29 AM
Sprouts? I buy Horizon milk there that is hormone free. Don't know about the meat though.

Thanks

Pete
09-19-2017, 10:43 AM
Site plan presented last night:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/braums091917.jpg

pickles
09-19-2017, 10:49 AM
Repulsive.

Ross MacLochness
09-19-2017, 10:50 AM
Site plan presented last night:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/braums091917.jpg

lol very depressing. Even if you think the Donnay building is in bad shape and should be torn down, this proposal is still a downgrade.

HangryHippo
09-19-2017, 11:21 AM
Hell yeah! Who doesn't want old storefronts with potential ripped out for more asphalt parking! Especially for a store that's done nothing but piss customers off with ignorant changes.

dankrutka
09-19-2017, 11:42 AM
Braum's Corporate Office number is 405-478-1656. I recommend calling and leaving a message with them... regularly. I just did so.

Just a reminder. Call them and let them know.

Zuplar
09-19-2017, 11:43 AM
I don't get why someone who follows the rules and does what they are legally allowed is beat up like this.

Seems like there is always outrage after the fact. If the gentleman who is telling Braums to stop what they are doing so he can buy the building to rehab it was so passionate about the project, why did he wait till now.

Not everyone gets an opinion on how every single piece of property is developed. The City has taken plenty of input on planning, and at the end of the day if they find that it fits within that framework, then people need to let it go.

Ginkasa
09-19-2017, 11:46 AM
So, should people have done or said something before this came to light instead? If so, what could they have done assuming they aren't part of a small class of people who could have purchased it themselves? Or, do you think people should just completely sit out of situations like these and let the powers that be do whatever without any input from the public?

Pete
09-19-2017, 11:49 AM
I don't get why someone who follows the rules and does what they are legally allowed is beat up like this.

Seems like there is always outrage after the fact. If the gentleman who is telling Braums to stop what they are doing so he can buy the building to rehab it was so passionate about the project, why did he wait till now.

Not everyone gets an opinion on how every single piece of property is developed. The City has taken plenty of input on planning, and at the end of the day if they find that it fits within that framework, then people need to let it go.

Until it's something you love or is going to be done right across the street.

And a reminder that this project doesn't happen unless Braum's gains approval to rezone residential lots to commercial, so they are in fact having to make a case for why this should be done. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a public process where people are allowed and encouraged to participate..

Zuplar
09-19-2017, 12:10 PM
Until it's something you love or is going to be done right across the street.

And a reminder that this project doesn't happen unless Braum's gains approval to rezone residential lots to commercial, so they are in fact having to make a case for why this should be done. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a public process where people are allowed and encouraged to participate..

I get that, but at the same time you can be upset about it without attempting to force someone else to do what you want.

Doesn't work like that.

As far as living across the street and having a complaint, that is laughable. They live near Northwest Expressway, near a business center and want to complain that a business is going in. You cannot tell me a sane person that lives or moves into an area such as this and doesn't expect something like this. I just don't even remotely buy that argument as being valid.

In fact the article I read had referenced homeowners in the area actually were mostly on board because it's better than living near a bar. The main concern seemed to be increased traffic.

At the end of the day yes I'm indifferent about this particular project, but there has been things torn down that I'd have rather not been. But I as Joe Blow Citizen have no right to tell another citizen or business what they can or cannot do with property they legally purchased, as long as it complies with City planning, etc.

So being outraged and calling Braum's corporate to complain about their business strategy is absurd and downright childish.

Celebrator
09-19-2017, 12:17 PM
This is very short-sighted on the part of Braum's. I get that they have done everything right technically, but surely there is another place they could put YET another outlet. I mean, why do this. The Braums are from Oklahoma and have seen the positive changes this city has undergone, why plow over buildings with character just to put something up that one can see anywhere else. In short, why be a bad neighbor. Now if this was a company from out of state or something, I would understand more about their ignorance and lack of care. But Braums is from here. Too bad.

Pete
09-19-2017, 12:28 PM
I get that, but at the same time you can be upset about it without attempting to force someone else to do what you want.

Doesn't work like that.

As far as living across the street and having a complaint, that is laughable. They live near Northwest Expressway, near a business center and want to complain that a business is going in. You cannot tell me a sane person that lives or moves into an area such as this and doesn't expect something like this. I just don't even remotely buy that argument as being valid.

In fact the article I read had referenced homeowners in the area actually were mostly on board because it's better than living near a bar. The main concern seemed to be increased traffic.

At the end of the day yes I'm indifferent about this particular project, but there has been things torn down that I'd have rather not been. But I as Joe Blow Citizen have no right to tell another citizen or business what they can or cannot do with property they legally purchased, as long as it complies with City planning, etc.

So being outraged and calling Braum's corporate to complain about their business strategy is absurd and downright childish.

It's exactly how it works.

Braum's is petitioning the City to change zoning so they can do this project.

Citizens organize, provide input and generally voice an opposing view.


And a city and community is not just a group of people doing whatever what they want with a property. All types of ordinances, guidelines and other considerations, not the least of which being that everyone who cares has some degree in ownership in the entire community, not just their own property.

Zuplar
09-19-2017, 12:38 PM
It's exactly how it works.

Braum's is petitioning the City to change zoning so they can do this project.

Citizens organize, provide input and generally voice an opposing view.


And a city and community is not just a group of people doing whatever what they want with a property. All types of ordinances, guidelines and other considerations, not the least of which being that everyone who cares has some degree in ownership in the entire community, not just their own property.

The zoning is one issue. Got it. For that portion everything you said is correct.

You focused on one portion of what I'm trying to say, and generalized it. I get that you are on one side of the argument, whereas I'm on neither, so at this point I don't think I have anything else to contribute that anyone wants to hear.

dankrutka
09-19-2017, 12:39 PM
So being outraged and calling Braum's corporate to complain about their business strategy is absurd and downright childish.

I disagree with you, but I'm not going to insult you by calling you "absurd" or "childish" because I see things differently.

There are public processes, zoning requirements, and public meetings because the common good and public interest are part of discussions about what development looks like within cities. Calling Braum's office to express my dissatisfaction with their policies is not only my choice as a consumer, but in my opinion, my responsibility as a citizen. If Braum's moves forward then they will lose my business forever because I believe this building holds historical value for OKC's LGBTQ community, is a higher and better use, and they've done very little to reach out to those in the community. OKC is already a city without much history left. I think OKC citizens should hang on to anything with any city memory remaining because there's so little of it left.

Zuplar
09-19-2017, 12:46 PM
I disagree with you, but I'm not going to insult you by calling you "absurd" or "childish" because I see things differently.

There are public processes, zoning requirements, and public meetings because the common good and public interest are part of discussions about what development looks like within cities. Calling Braum's office to express my dissatisfaction with their policies is not only my choice as a consumer, but in my opinion, my responsibility as a citizen. If Braum's moves forward then they will lose my business forever because I believe this building holds historical value for OKC's LGBTQ community, is a higher and better use, and they've done very little to reach out to those in the community. OKC is already a city without much history left. I think OKC citizens should hang on to anything with any city memory remaining because there's so little of it left.

Please don't patronize me.

If you are taking what I said as a personal insult, that's on you. I don't have the kind of free time to call everyone that is doing something I disagree with and voice my displeasure, and to me, it does sound childish.

So if I were you I'd take your own advice, because your comments are similarly insulting.

BoulderSooner
09-19-2017, 12:49 PM
It's exactly how it works.

Braum's is petitioning the City to change zoning so they can do this project.

Citizens organize, provide input and generally voice an opposing view.


And a city and community is not just a group of people doing whatever what they want with a property. All types of ordinances, guidelines and other considerations, not the least of which being that everyone who cares has some degree in ownership in the entire community, not just their own property.

The thing is the the demo has nothing to do with the zoning request. They didn't have to show a site plan or even say they wanted to demo the property.

The owners of the buildings could demo them right now with no hearing

What are legit reason to deny the rezoning of the residential piece. ???

baralheia
09-19-2017, 12:50 PM
I don't get why someone who follows the rules and does what they are legally allowed is beat up like this.

Seems like there is always outrage after the fact. If the gentleman who is telling Braums to stop what they are doing so he can buy the building to rehab it was so passionate about the project, why did he wait till now.
[...]

Legally correct doesn't always mean morally or logically correct. Just because I can legally go do something doesn't always mean that I should. And I'd certainly argue that - barring insurmountable issues - destroying a building that is historically significant to the surrounding community is not in the best interests of that community or the owners, for that matter.

As for the "Why did he wait until now?" question - it's been mentioned in this thread a few times that various people have tried to purchase the Donnay building for years, but couldn't come to terms with the owner for various reasons - and they didn't seem to seriously entertain offers until suddenly the Braum's deal popped up out of nowhere.