To whom should I write an e-mail or letter? Normally I would just sign the petition and be on my way, however, I own 2 properties less than 5 blocks away, so there would be more weight coming from someone in the actual neighborhood that this tragedy is being considered.

Always let your councilperson (for the affected properties) know of your issues. It is your council person that will have to vote on the re-zoning and such.

I am sure this is not a popular opinion but I live in the neighborhood and am actually in favor of Braums. I shop there every week and it would be nice to have it closer. I used to work at the Patio Restaurant as a 13 year old bussing tables and have great memories of it. If the building stays then they should at least fix it up so it does not look so dumpy. That is what makes it a target to tear down. It looks like it is crumbling. I would like to see it brought back to its original state.

But Braum's has the best-tasting fat-free skim milk, though... any other brands out there that come close?

I am sure that Ed shaded will oppose it being torn down.

The current owners purchased in the mid-90's and are famous for not caring about the place and doing almost nothing to maintain it.

This is another case in OKC where an owner is allowed to drive something into the ground then claim it is beyond saving.

In this situation, more than 20 years of complete neglect.

I am sure this is not a popular opinion but I live in the neighborhood and am actually in favor of Braums. I shop there every week and it would be nice to have it closer. I used to work at the Patio Restaurant as a 13 year old bussing tables and have great memories of it. If the building stays then they should at least fix it up so it does not look so dumpy. That is what makes it a target to tear down. It looks like it is crumbling. I would like to see it brought back to its original state.

If Braum's had opted to work in a strategy that incorporated the existing building into a new store concept unique to the area, they could have turned this into a huge PR win and probably entirely avoided this ongoing publicity nightmare.

They could also fix their burgers and shakes, turn this into a PR win with a "Mea culpa! We hear you! We're fixing the burgers and shakes!
But I don't think they care about that, either. Not sure Drew Braum is getting the best advice these days; or if he is, he's just ignoring it.

The current owners purchased in the mid-90's and are famous for not caring about the place and doing almost nothing to maintain it.

This is another case in OKC where an owner is allowed to drive something into the ground then claim it is beyond saving.

In this situation, more than 20 years of complete neglect.

If it ends up staying then the City should force them to take care of it. That would be awesome. It is a shame that is has declined into it's current state. It is becoming an eyesore the way it is going.

13975

If it ends up staying then the City should force them to take care of it. That would be awesome. It is a shame that is has declined into it's current state. It is becoming an eyesore the way it is going.

The reality is that it's very hard to force an owner to do much with a property beyond whatever minimum code requires. I think that's what precipitated the ordinance that finally got the Spaghetti Warehouse building situation off the dime....but it took a building in that bad a shape to make it happen. These places on Classen, while apparently needing some attention, presumably aren't anywhere near the state SW was/is in....so it just necessarily becomes a tough nut to crack when an owner just lets a property sit...

I think the Patio (Donnay Building) should be rehabbed and restored by Braum's and make accomodations for the record shop and the HiLo. The building really needs a good clearing and scrub, but feel like it could be a little gem of Mid Century architecture restored into something special "if it was done right"!

I would love to see this restored. I love Mid Century modern and Googie architecture. The last time I was there was probably in the '90s but I drive by it often. I've always loved that odd amalgamation of buildings. It's just like they grew there organically. It kinda reminds me of the hodge podge look of the Walled City of Kowloon.

Braum's needs to concentrate on fixing their mistakes and cleaning their stores instead of tearing down Mid Century architecture.

I am sure that Ed shaded will oppose it being torn down.

He posted this on facebook yesterday -



The misguided decision to tear down the Donnay Building (The Hi-Lo and Classen Grill) for a Braums can be resisted. 1/3 of the land is zoned R-1 residential and should not be rezoned to industrial use. The rezoning (which is wholly inadequate in that only the R-1 property is included in the PUD) can be protested by the people and denied by the City Council. Braum's is an OK company and should hear from and hopefully respect the will of the people of OKC to preserve what is unique and special to us. Multiple protests being planned; details to follow. Thanks to Floyd Martin for this summary of the historical significance of the area: "The Hi-Lo is the Hi-Lo because the "Lo" part is where it is now, and the "Hi" part is the red part above which was at one time, a dance floor that overlooked that part of the city (which was the end of the street car line). During prohibition (which lasted in Oklahoma until 1959), the Hi-Lo was where state politicians gathered to drink, talk politics, and since there are apartments in that building, presumably took hookers. There is also a tunnel that goes from The Donnay Building to The Classen Grill and to an old hotel, that is no longer standing. The Hi-Lo has been a "Gay bar" since at least the mid-80s, but all are welcome there The Donnay Building was built in 1948. The Hi-Lo was opened in 1956 Charlie's Jazz and Blues Records and Books opened in the late 70s The Classen Grill opened in 1980, and the building was built in 1929. The Hi-Lo has identified as a Gay/Gay friendly bar since 1988. It may not be YOUR history but it is historic."

I frequent Braums and welcome this one as it will be closer to my house. A new building would help that area look nicer.

13973

Looks like somebody grew a conscience.

And then the NewsOK article was updated again at 8:53pm removing the citation. :dontgetit :rolleyes:

I love Braum's, but there's already one 1-mile away, and 8 within a 5-mile radius.

but she also thinks the internet is the devil!!!

I have a former in-law who thinks that wind chimes are of the occult. Found that out the hard way when I gave her a set as a really nice present.

And then the NewsOK article was updated again at 8:53pm removing the citation. :dontgetit :rolleyes:

I noticed this this morning. I'm disappointed in NewsOK and the Oklahoman's lack of standards.

I noticed this this morning. I'm disappointed in NewsOK and the Oklahoman's lack of standards.

The fact they did it then removed it says it all.

I love Braum's, but there's already one 1-mile away, and 8 within a 5-mile radius.

Braum's has been building a bunch of their "Fresh Market" concept stores near their older stores and then closing the older store when the new one is complete. They did this to the Braums on the edge of my neighborhood. The closest one to this proposed location, at NW 36th and Penn, was built in the early '90s, and then remodeled and expanded around 2007. Even despite the relative newness of that store, it wouldn't surprise me if the one they want to build on Classen is to replace the Penn store.

I doubt they will close the 39th & Penn location.

I live nearby and that place is always packed. And there is plenty of room to expand / remodel if they so desired.

Plus, even though these two locations are relatively close as the crow flies, they really would serve completely different markets.

Or perhaps this is all just hopeful thinking on my part!

I doubt they will close the 39th & Penn location.

I live nearby and that place is always packed. And there is plenty of room to expand / remodel if they so desired.

Plus, even though these two locations are relatively close as the crow flies, they really would serve completely different markets.

Or perhaps this is all just hopeful thinking on my part!

I just don't understand the business case for the proposed Classen Circle location. 39th and Penn is an okay location for a typical interstate drive-thru fast food place. But Classen Circle doesn't make sense to me. Nothing about it screams easy-in/easy-out. Even locals can barely navigate that intersection as it is now. Who can forget the pedestrian danger stories from 2-3 years back about people crossing the street from Edna's to the Fry and HiLo?

^

I do agree this location is a bit of a head-scratcher for lots of reasons independent of tearing down those buildings.

It's also interesting that Braum's bought that small parcel in 2015, so this has likely been in the works for a while.

Also, they bought land near the Classen/17th location to presumably someday build a true fresh-market there. If that's the plan, makes no sense to build yet another just down the road. That said, if they built one in the vicinity of Classen Circle (but not on the Donnay site), built one downtown (an urban version obvs), and closed the Classen/17 store (to perhaps sell the site for higher use given what's going in the old Marcos spot), I'd be okay with that.

Yes; I went there for fries yesterday, and I kept missing the hole, as it were, to get out of the place! Braum's drive thrus are already a mess (or at least they were; the ones by me are quite barren these days).

Also, they bought land near the Classen/17th location to presumably someday build a true fresh-market there. If that's the plan, makes no sense to build yet another just down the road. That said, if they built one in the vicinity of Classen Circle (but not on the Donnay site), built one downtown (an urban version obvs), and closed the Classen/17 store (to perhaps sell the site for higher use given what's going in the old Marcos spot), I'd be okay with that.

The strange this is that Braum's purchased the lots just west of their 17th & Classen location and have done absolutely nothing there.

That store is so bad, even by Braum's standards.

(BTW, I really do like Braum's they just frustrate me.)

The strange this is that Braum's purchased the lots just west of their 17th & Classen location and have done absolutely nothing there.

That store is so bad, even by Braum's standards.

(BTW, I really do like Braum's they just frustrate me.)

Amen.

I wrote some stuff here regarding this: https://urbanlakeeffect.wordpress.com/2017/07/13/braums-urbanism-and-strong-towns/

Braum's has been building a bunch of their "Fresh Market" concept stores near their older stores and then closing the older store when the new one is complete. They did this to the Braums on the edge of my neighborhood. The closest one to this proposed location, at NW 36th and Penn, was built in the early '90s, and then remodeled and expanded around 2007. Even despite the relative newness of that store, it wouldn't surprise me if the one they want to build on Classen is to replace the Penn store.

The replacability of new fast food buildings is one of two reasons these buildings should not be torn down. Older and unique architecture almost never can be replaced. If braums builds here I can almost certainly garuntee that they won't be there as long as the hi-lo has been there, or as long as any of our preserved buildings have been in their places.

The second reason is that we'd be going from a block capable of having five businesses on the same patch of land where braum's is proposing to build one that will eventually get torn down and replaced by something else. It's a bad deal for the city in the long run.

Just taken of the protest. Lots of honks of support from passing motorists.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hilo071317b.jpg

I like Braum's milk and always choose it over grocery store milk.

Count me in as one who would hate to see this old corner razed. However, I don't think Braums will be hurt by this publicity. They have hundreds of stores in 5 states, so they aren't going anywhere.

Always let your councilperson (for the affected properties) know of your issues. It is your council person that will have to vote on the re-zoning and such.

Obviously this as well as my properties are in Shadid's ward, and he will obviously be in opposition to this.

I know that a zoning request will have to pass city council, but is there a preliminary committee that this will pass through before it hits city council?

I too like Braum's, but I will absolutely have to stop all consumption from there if they end up tearing this down for a dime-a-dozen drive-thru that is going to fail anyway, because it will be a nightmare to get in and out of...this coming from someone who passes on either side of this restaurant every single day of my life, multiple times a day for many years now.

39th and Penn Braums is literally 3 minutes away. I honestly can't believe there are people living in the area who are so welcoming of saving 3 minutes to lose place-making architecture and one of the very things that helped this area take off quicker than a lot of other areas (like West of Classen, non-Putnam Heights).

In the long run, the street-car is going to pass right by this property. It's either going to be a destination spot with a variety of businesses that bring people from downtown up to what is essentially the gateway to NW OKC, or it's going to be another forgettable slice in the fabric of our city as people pass right on by the area for something more interesting north or south of this proposed tragedy.

I like Braum's milk and always choose it over grocery store milk.



That gap isn't as big as it used to be. We've found a couple of store brands as well as Hiland to be very worthy competitors and make it a lot harder yo justify the extra trip to Braum's for their version.

That gap isn't as big as it used to be. We've found a couple of store brands as well as Hiland to be very worthy competitors and make it a lot harder yo justify the extra trip to Braum's for their version.

Would you say that other producers are catching on, then, by your taste? I know that the Sonic shakes after eight are a more than worthy substitute! Earlier I mentioned the Braum's shake was fine; my test shake (to determine if a whole milk shake was refused upon request) indeed lacked the "oomph" that one I had a week or so before the change occurred had.

I don't know about the gap, but to me, Braum's milk tastes better than others, including Highland. I've also noticed that if we don't use it up very fast, Braum's milk keeps longer in the fridge than other brands. There's also a Braum's not far from our house so a special trip is no big deal.

I have noticed that their malts have changed. The last two times I got one, they weren't thick at all. ... more like milk with just a little bit of ice cream.

Would you say that other producers are catching on, then, by your taste? I know that the Sonic shakes after eight are a more than worthy substitute! Earlier I mentioned the Braum's shake was fine; my test shake (to determine if a whole milk shake was refused upon request) indeed lacked the "oomph" that one I had a week or so before the change occurred had.

I think they are definitely closing the gap - and I agree that Sonic's shakes (and custards) are amazing. Just too bad they're not something I do very often #blastedcalories.

That gap isn't as big as it used to be. We've found a couple of store brands as well as Hiland to be very worthy competitors and make it a lot harder yo justify the extra trip to Braum's for their version.

Since PR has pressured the dairy industry to cut back on using artificial growth hormones that has made Braum's milk a little less special (one of the things they boasted on a few years ago), but they still win IMO on freshness and how they concentrate the non-fat solids rather than leave it diluted when removing the fat (on the milks where that applies).

Historical properties or not, these buildings are in very poor shape to say the least. If the owners/tenants had kept said properties in good condition, this probably wouldn't even be an issue.

I'm going to jump in on the talk about Braums milk. No its not the best on the market. I buy only Kalona Supernatural. Whole Foods, Natural Grocers and Sprouts carries it. Is organic produced by Amish farmers in Iowa. they use a variety of cows not just factory Holstein cows. Also most organic milk is ultra pasturized which gives the milk a cooked taste. Kalonia doesn't do that. They don't homoginize their milk so you get cream on top. Kalonia is Way better tasting then Braums milk. I eat at Braums at least once a week for breakfast. If they tear this building down then I'll just scratch it off my list and go someplace else.

I don't know about the gap, but to me, Braum's milk tastes better than others, including Highland. I've also noticed that if we don't use it up very fast, Braum's milk keeps longer in the fridge than other brands. There's also a Braum's not far from our house so a special trip is no big deal.

I have noticed that their malts have changed. The last two times I got one, they weren't thick at all. ... more like milk with just a little bit of ice cream.
If you want it thick, just ask them. Every one I go to gladly makes mine super thick.

Even non preservationists (agnostics) seem incensed they are trying to tear down the Classen building. Hopefully this will springboard them into voicing their opinions on other buildings now, too.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the buildings on that corner coming down, seeing as how they are in really bad shape, but a standard Braum's is just so boring. At least make the new building interesting, even if it is a Braum's. Make it a one-of-a-kind design that at least echoes the feel of the current building. Make it a new concept, maybe even split level design, ice cream shop on top, food and groceries on bottom.

If they're going to demolish that corner, take some time and really make it interesting instead of just popping up the same store that's all over town.

Reminds me, as has been said in this thread, of the Stage Center coming down. That building was frought with issues that were way too cost-prohibitive to fix, and it was realistic to think it had to come down, as unfortunate as it was. But to plan a parking lot or some other boring building in its place is just a shame. Replace interesting and historic with interesting that will become historic.

What happens next at Classen Circle? (http://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=400-What-happens-now-at-Classen-Circle)

As we were first to report on Wednesday (http://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=399-Braum-s-applies-to-demolish-HiLo-Club-Drunken-Fry-and-Classen-Grill-structures), plans have been filed with the city to rezone part of the triangle of properties containing the HiLo Club, Drunken Fry and the Classen Grill.

The application seeks to reclassify three residential lots directly east of HiLo (shaded in yellow below) as a Planned Unit Development (PUD), a common approach which creates special zoning that permits a specific variety of uses and building types.

The parcels outlined in red are owned by Red Oak LLC which is seeking to sell to Braum's Ice Cream and Dairy Stores; the blue indicates a property already owned by Braum's.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/braums10.jpg



The rezoning application filed with the city's Planning Department was made by Braum's and authorized by the owner of all but the one Braum's property, Red Oak. This usually indicates a pending sale, a fact we confirmed with the Braum's real estate department on Wednesday.

Also included in the Braum's application was a conceptual site plan (see bottom of this story) that show all existing buildings, including the unique and historic Donnay Building, removed in favor of a new Braum's location with a drive-thru.

The backlash in social media has been overwhelming, with thousands expressing outrage, including a protest yesterday at the site:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hilo071317b.jpg


There is also an on-line petition to save the buildings which garnered over 10,000 signatures in 24 hours:

https://www.change.org/p/okie-mod-squad-please-sign-the-petition-to-save-the-historic-donnay-building-in-oklahoma-city


Understanding the Process

For those concerned about possible demolition, it is important to note that this area does not fall within any of Oklahoma City's design or historic preservation districts, which means a property owner can demolish any structure at any time.

OKCTalk confirmed with the city's Planning Department that the only requirement is filling out a form and paying a small fee; there is no review or approval required. The process is no more arduous than obtaining a garage sale permit.

In other words, the current owner Red Oak LLC could demolish that entire block tomorrow without public notice.

In fact, this is true of every single property in OKC outside these handful of special districts near the city's center. In those districts, approval must be sought through special committee before advancing with any demolition or changes to the exterior, but the Classen Circle area has no such protection.

Follow this link for more about OKC's special zoning districts (http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=34290).


Planning Commission

The matter to be decided for Classen Circle is only that of rezoning the three residential lots, as the balance of the subject property already has the necessary commercial overlay.

In the graphic below, R-1 is residential, O-1 and O-2 are office and C-3 and C-4 are commercial:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/braums11a.jpg


The Braum's application is scheduled to come before the Planning Commission on August 24th at 1:30 at 200 N. Walker. A Facebook group (https://www.facebook.com/events/109186103065798/?acontext=%7B%22ref%22%3A%223%22%2C%22ref_newsfeed _story_type%22%3A%22regular%22%2C%22feed_story_typ e%22%3A%22361%22%2C%22action_history%22%3A%22null% 22%7D) has been established to encourage concerned parties to attend that meeting.

OKCTalk spoke at length to the Chair of the Planning Commission, Janis Powers.

Powers said that the commission always encourages an applicant to meet with nearby homeowners in advance of a formal vote. Applicants are also required to provide legal notice to residents within a certain distance of any rezoning application but are not required to hold meetings, although it is strongly encouraged.

The goal of encouraging such interaction is to facilitate communication and identify possible compromises before the application is formally considered by the Planning Commission. Powers emphasized the important role the public plays in this process.

The applicant also has the option of asking for a continuance in order to work with concerned parties. It is not uncommon for the commission itself to recommend a continuance where areas of conflict have not been resolved.

When the formal meeting agenda is posted a few days before the meeting, city staff from the Planning Department will provide an analysis and recommendation on each application, based on congruence with PlanOKC – the over-arching long-term planning document recently completed – and through applying their expertise in planning principles. All recommendations of city staff are non-binding.

In the Planning Commission meeting, the applicant, often represented by an attorney, typically addresses the group and describes their intentions and takes questions from the commission members. Members of the public is also allowed to speak for up to 3 minutes each.

Once discussion has concluded the commission may ask the applicant for further information and/or meetings with the public, which often results in a continuance to a future Planning Commission meeting.

The commission may also call for a formal vote on the application, which would result in their recommendation to City Council that the matter be either approved on not approved. At this point, the application would be added to a future City Council meeting agenda approximately two weeks later.


City Council

Recommendations of the Planning Commission are non-binding and there have been situations where the council has voted against a recommendation, just as the Planning Commission itself may ultimately agree or disagree with the recommendation of the city's Planning Department.

City Council will ultimately vote on the application in one of their regularly scheduled meetings, with the applicant and public again allowed to speak.

It is important to note that while the Braum's request for is only to rezone the 3 residential lots, both the Planning Commission and City Council may take into account their larger plan for the property, which seems to be clearly indicated in the site plan below showing demolitions and new construction.

If Braum's was to receive approval to rezone the residential lots, from that point they could implement their conceptual plan unimpeded, unless a private party chose to challenge the rezoning decision in district court.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/braums3aa.jpg

Obviously this as well as my properties are in Shadid's ward, and he will obviously be in opposition to this.

I know that a zoning request will have to pass city council, but is there a preliminary committee that this will pass through before it hits city council?

It has to go to Planning Commission first.

Man, I have been thinking this thing over. I have lived here all my life and yes, that building has been there for a long time, has history, but it does looks like something from a 3rd world country landed there. I am stuck on the fence between yeah, it may be time for that building to go, but don't want to see a Braum's fresh market go in there. The perfect scenario for me would be to have a major modern renovation of that building, but keep the same general shaping (like the new challengers, camaro's, and mustangs have a hint of the old school look, but modern). Just my input, and I fully realize that some will and won't agree with me.

And Pete..... you are rocking it with that drone buddy!!! Ever want to get dual drone pics, let me know, my son is really getting into it!!!

The problem with saving the building is who is going to pay to save the building. Maintaining the building costs money, then there is taxes, and overhead, etc. If the owners are selling then they don't want to keep up with the building expenses and get their money out of it. Who that signed the petition is going to pony up the money.

The problem with saving the building is who is going to pay to save the building. Maintaining the building costs money, then there is taxes, and overhead, etc. If the owners are selling then they don't want to keep up with the building expenses and get their money out of it. Who that signed the petition is going to pony up the money.

The building is currently occupied with paying tenants.

I also suspect the current owner is not carrying a mortgage.

The problem with saving the building is who is going to pay to save the building. Maintaining the building costs money, then there is taxes, and overhead, etc. If the owners are selling then they don't want to keep up with the building expenses and get their money out of it. Who that signed the petition is going to pony up the money.

Sorry, this is a very condescending (and at the same time poorly-informed) opinion. You're taking a position of moral authority over the people who have signed the petition, acting like they are somehow in the wrong for wanting to save a historic block. But you know so little about the situation, you didn't even realize that these buildings have had tenants in them for decades. These places do great business.

It's this kind of reactionary thinking that costs this city historic gems. These buildings aren't in the best shape, but they're not abandoned and they still manage to maintain occupancy permits. They're in no danger of falling down, they're just kind of grungy. Even if the current owners aren't interested in renovating them, that doesn't mean we should tear them down and replace them with a damn cookie-cutter fast food drive-thru.

Man, I have been thinking this thing over. I have lived here all my life and yes, that building has been there for a long time, has history, but it does looks like something from a 3rd world country landed there. I am stuck on the fence between yeah, it may be time for that building to go, but don't want to see a Braum's fresh market go in there. The perfect scenario for me would be to have a major modern renovation of that building, but keep the same general shaping (like the new challengers, camaro's, and mustangs have a hint of the old school look, but modern). Just my input, and I fully realize that some will and won't agree with me.

It's unique though. I went to the HiLo club for the first time last night and that is a really cool, unique bar with a lot of charm. Places like that don't exist much anymore. Charlie's Record Store is also a gem and I would hate to see it go. There are drive-through fast food restaurants on almost every corner in OKC. Why destroy something that is unique and charming for something so boring like a Braum's, especially since there are two locations less than two miles away from this proposed one?

Would you think tearing down the Spaghetti Warehouse building to put in an OnCue would be acceptable?

One of the huge emotional attachments comes from the role the HiLo Club has played in OKC's gay and lesbian community.

The HiLo has been around since 1956 and I'm sure in the 50's and 60's there were precious few places where gay people felt comfortable in OKC.

In fact, the whole reason the gay district evolved at 39th & Penn was because it was an out-of-the-way mainly industrial area where the gay community could gather without drawing attention.

I remember that even in the late 80's, almost all those places on 39th never had a sign. All because the judgmental nature of many locals caused that community to stay largely underground.

So imagine how things were in the 50's and 60's and how the HiLo was a life raft in many ways. I know there are many stories of people who met there and then supported each other in many ways, including coming out to family and friends.

And the fact it still operates today and has a pretty good following even though no one really needs to sneak around anymore and there are dozens of more options... Well, that says a lot.

Not my intent to be condescending or a moral authority. I am looking at reality. The owners want to sell and Braums is willing to buy. The anger should be placed with the owners who are selling not Braums. It is in Braums best interest to expand their business and this is a good opportunity for them. It is a good opportunity for the sellers to make money off of selling because they don't want to own anymore. If they wanted to keep the building with the tenants, then they would not be selling.

The point I am making is stuff costs money and it is easy to say keep the building there, but the reality is to keep the building there costs money. Even with tenants, the owners have a better deal than keeping the building and the tenants. Is there someone willing to provide a better offer than Braums? I don't know, but if there was Braums, would not be buying it. The point is that who signed the petition is willing to provide a better deal to the owner other than Braums? Would you sell your house or car for less to other the highest and best offeror?

Along the lines of moral authority and condescending, it is a little bit condescending to say that Braums is not good enough to be there. It is a quality local Oklahoma company that employs many. Think of all of the people you are insulting that like to go to Bruams and like the company. It is a two way street.

"Higher and Better Use" is a well known concept for construction in an urban core.

"Higher and Better Use" is a well known concept for construction in an urban core.

I agree.

Demolishing that block that currently has a handful of successful businesses to be replaced with a large surface parking lot and a single fast food restaurant is a bad deal for the city. Never mind the fact that the city will be losing yet another unique block filled with character (something there isn't much of in this town anymore).

It's also not that Braum's isn't good enough to be there. It's that the location isn't good for their standard cookie-cutter business model (large parking lot, drive through, etc). If they wanted to attempt to fit it into the existing neighborhood fabric, that would be a completely different story.

.... Would you sell your house or car for less to other the highest and best offeror?

...

Would you sell/adopt out a dog/cat to the person that paid the most money or sell/adopt out to the person that will take care of the pet the best ("higher and better use", as has been said)? Not *everything* in this society is all about the $$$$$, even though that's the way it's trending (sadly).

"Higher and Better Use" is a well known concept for construction in an urban core.

Thanks for posting that Shawn. Even though I personally love historic preservation, mid-century architecture and that building in particular, I am also a pragmatic preservationist and recognize the concept of higher and better use.

For instance, the Finley Building at the top of the Walnut Street bridge was an interesting property that was actually more historically significant than architecturally significant, owing to Dr. Finley's longstanding service to the Deep Deuce and African American community. However, the Aloft Hotel was CLEARLY higher and better use, which is why you mostly heard nary a peep from preservationists. Even the BOK Park Plaza building arguably offered higher and better use than the buildings taken down to enable its construction.

But a Braum's? And not to pick on Braum's, but really ANY fast food restaurant? No way is it higher and better. Even without the character-robbing aspects (which are real), the economics of it probably don't make sense from a community standpoint. It is possible (perhaps likely) that this ramshackle cluster of businesses provides more sales tax revenue to the city and more employees than a Braum's would, based on density alone. Also, there is property tax (which has been brought up in this thread). The expanse of parking around a Braum's would likely mitigate the uptick in property value provided by the Braum's building itself.

Joe Minicozzi spoke this year at Downtown OKC's developers' luncheon and gave some really powerful examples of how this value-per-acre idea works. Here is a TED talk he gave in 2012 in Asheville (YouTube) (https://youtu.be/wQRD51k41IM?t=326). I have linked it to the point in the video where he talks about the economics of density. It's not an exact parallel, as he is talking downtowns and also Asheville's taxation surely works differently than ours (cities all have different structures); but you get the idea related to the economics of density.

Finally I would say that one bullet I'm not hearing being discussed much is neighborhood impact. I'm sure there are people there who aren't crazy about the bar scene in this building, but in fairness it has been this use since the 1950s. Placing a fast food with associated drive-thru here will fundamentally impact the dynamic of the surrounding neighborhood. I promise traffic will be even MORE of a concern, and pretty sure the location of a fast food place will devalue its immediate surroundings. The main thing that could sway the City here regarding the rezoning would be noisy NIMBYs, and this is a case where they could actually be quite useful.

Anyway, I agree that the owner has the right to sell, and can sell to whoever they want. Also agree that beyond a PR campaign there is not much that can be done to stop this from happening. That said, it never appeared on the open market as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't be surprised if a local developer or two had strong interest if this happened, and possibly might pay more than Braum's for this iconic piece of OKC history and architectural record. As such, it's a shame that they didn't try to go this route. Maybe it's not too late if anyone involved in the deal has an open mind. There is no way that there is not a different parcel nearby that Braum's could develop for similar money and with far less controversy and damage to the community and their reputation.

Keep in mind that not but for the request to rezone those 3 residential lots, there would have been zero notice or process to prevent the destruction of those buildings. In fact, there will be serious legal questions about denying the zoning change in order to prevent demolition, if indeed that comes to pass.

Anything outside the small areas covered by the special zoning can be demolished without approval.

For example, everything on the west side of Classen -- apart from the heart of the Plaza District -- requires nothing more than walking up to the 8th floor on Main Street, filling a out a form and writing a small check. Anybody could do this today and have bulldozers moving in the morning.

THAT is the bigger issue here. And in fact, Braum's (or anyone else who owns or buys) could easily move forward on this project and just forget those residential lots.

Braum's is not the problem. The present owner or anyone he chooses to sell to could demolish those properties any time they want, and that is true for 99% of Oklahoma City.

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Agree that the present owner is the problem. That said, Braum's could re-think the deal. The present owner then would be best served marketing the building if they want out, rather than kicking out rent paying tenants and leveling on spec.

I'm very sure this is a binary situation.

Either Braum's is going to continue to press for the rezoning (which will likely be hard to deny based on the purview of the Planning Commission and City Council) and scrape everything if they get that approval, or they will back out of the deal due to public pressure.

If the latter, then someone else will come along to buy and we'll be right back in the same place.

I just don't see any way this building is saved. Once an owner decides they don't care about saving something, it's always easier, cheaper and more expedient to bulldoze and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about that outside the very limited special zoning districts.

And even then, the point needs to be made that there is not a single instance of the downtown design review committee denying a demo permit (that I am aware of).

It also should be said that if City Council ultimately decides to deny the rezoning due to the concern over buildings being demolished outside the area that is to be rezoned, they would face a stiff legal challenge if Braum's chose to file in district court.

I just don't see any way this building is saved. Once an owner decides they don't care about saving something, it's always easier, cheaper and more expedient to bulldoze and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about that outside the very limited special zoning districts.

Do you think there's a chance this public attention could lead to finding an alternative buyer with an interest in saving the building?

Do you think there's a chance this public attention could lead to finding an alternative buyer with an interest in saving the building?

Maybe.

But the present owner would have to be willing to sell to them and the buyer would have to be willing to pay the freight.

And I've been told the current owner has been approached many times by other buyers. There have been hints about a personal relationship with a member of the Braum's family, but who knows. That owner can do whatever the hell he wants and as a community we really have no say given the current laws and guidelines.


BTW, I understand the outrage over this but there is a ton of irony when you compare to what just happened at Charcoal Oven.

In that case, there was nothing that needed to be rezoned and the property was already under firm contract before word got out (again, by our reporting).

The difference is that for some strange reason there was no public outcry. The Charcoal Oven owners were portrayed as great people who kept the place going as long as they could... But in the end they didn't even try to find someone to preserve some or all of the setting. I spoke to every great restaurant owner I know in this town and none had heard about this, nor had any of our great developers.

IMO the Charcoal Oven thing was every bit as tragic and I'm reminded of it every time I drive by what is now a Discount Tire location fully under construction. Really, no different than this situation at all.

And the same exact thing could happen at any time virtually anywhere in OKC, apart from the special zoning districts. And even then, there is this big process and we still end up at the exact same place.

Do you think there's a chance this public attention could lead to finding an alternative buyer with an interest in saving the building?

Now I'm just waiting for the Oklahoman to report that TEEMCO is buying it, and all this kerfuffle will blow over any minute now, nothing to see here, everything is peachy keen.