Does it look like there has been any real preservation or even design review in any of this?

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I guess my main concern is knocking a bunch of successful businesses down before developing a bunch of vacant land. But from a historical perspective, I’d say at minimum keep the corner buildings on asp and Boyd as they’ve been minimally changed and have been the gateway to that area for 100 years, the boomer theater, Othellos and the buildings on the corner just south of it, the building Yo Pablo! is in which has been minimally altered, the Buchanan bike building, the building Pepe Delgados is in, the Blackbird building and the maybe the old Harold’s buildings. I don’t know if I’d save them because they are newer but I’d avoid knocking down Logies or the Porch in the first wave since they’ve both been recently rebuilt to add a second floor.

Also maybe keep the deli.

However this unfolds, there will be tons of input and the developer would have to get buy-in from the community.

I suspect the project would be done in multiple phases allowing for the continuation of some businesses, with several of them moving into new construction.

The Boomer has been completely bastardized apart from the marquee. The rest you mention have been changed many times over the decades.

Keeping a bunch of non descript 1 story buildings instead of building street level retail (replacing the retail that is already existing) and adding 3-5 stories of residential on top does everything this district needs. Continues to be very walkable, adds mass in having more student/residential housing next to the retail to sustain them throughout the year. Encourages more businesses and land owners to improve their properties adding significant growth and money to an area that is in major need of it. It would also bring much more legitimacy to building a new arena NE section of campus instead of building on I-35.

Researching this more, the buildings along Boyd - both corners of Asp and west through the old Harold's structures -- were all built in the 1930s.

They've all been changed quite a bit and not sure if they could be restored.

To me, the only thing that would make sense is to keep them and then build up behind them. Maybe just the two corner buildings on Asp.


But that might not be feasible in order to do this on a scale that would warrant hundreds of millions in investment.

However this unfolds, there will be tons of input and the developer would have to get buy-in from the community.

I suspect the project would be done in multiple phases allowing for the continuation of some businesses, with several of them moving into new construction.

The Boomer has been completely bastardized apart from the marquee. The rest you mention have been changed many times over the decades.

All of the buildings I mentioned have maintained enough of their historic architecture to be considered historic despite how much they’ve been changed over the decades. That’s why I specifically referenced them.

All of the buildings I mentioned have maintained enough of their historic architecture to be considered historic despite how much they’ve been changed over the decades. That’s why I specifically referenced them.

Not even remotely true on Blackbird or Boomer. And there is nothing special about the old Harold's buildings which have been heavily modified from whatever 1-story facade they once had.

And the Yo Pablo building is just a 1-sided, 1-story facade in the middle of a bunch of junk. Not reasonable to try and save it, especially set so far back into what would be new development.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/boomerold1.png


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Not even remotely true on Blackbird or Boomer. And there is nothing special about the old Harold's buildings which have been heavily modified from whatever 1-story facade they once had.

And the Yo Pablo building is just a 1-sided, 1-story facade in the middle of a bunch of junk. Not reasonable to try and save it, especially set so far back into what would be new development.

that’s why I said “maybe the old Harold’s building.” Looking back at the boomer, you’re right other than the marquis. We’ll have to agree to disagree on the rest.

And you think this building should be preserved in the middle of a $200 million mixed-use development?

https://picturemap.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/12_PictureMap-large-thumbnail-6.jpg

I don't think it really matters how much of the original architecture has been altered or removed, personally - all buildings contribute to the character of a given area in my book, regardless of their documented history (or lack thereof). Obviously some buildings contribute more character than others - and I'm not crying over those that contribute the least. But the idea of wiping everything and starting anew? There is just not a compelling reason to do so, full stop - not when there is still plenty of unrealized opportunity in empty parking lots. None of the arguments made in this thread have swayed me in that either. If people are the problem, do what you can do to correct that part of the equation. Yes change is necessary and even good in many instances, but wiping the slate clean here is change for the sake of change and I'm not here for it. It reeks of "Oh we're a SEC school/town now so we need something new and flashy to show we've arrived!"

Pretty much the only plan I'd be in favor of would be one that rehabs the existing building stock and adds to that existing character through considerate additions on underutilized land. For buildings that have little in the way of original architecture left, use what exists as a base to expand and/or modernize the structure. Be creative and build upon what's there - razing everything and starting anew is the lazy man's way out, in my opinion.

What does "historic" even mean? I think what people mean by historic is that they find the architecture and walkability historic, in the sense that developers don't build that way anymore. All of that is easily recreated if the desire is there.

https://newtrad.org/

The irony is that if this development happened, OU’s marquee area on gameday—Campus Corner—would be a construction site for the first several years OU is in the SEC. It would make a far worse impression and gameday experience for visitors than, say, just developing vacant lots or naturally continuing projects, or just buying out crappy landlords. This is why the SEC angle makes no sense.

I heard a rumor that a development group from Texas wants to pretty much buy all of Campus Corner and build a huge multi-use retail/residential complex. The rumor says with OU going to the SEC, the game day revenue should increase substantially (They said Tuscaloosa has a $30 million revenue per game day and Norman is $10 million). Pretty wild stuff - anybody hear anything about this?

Oh gee. Not sure how I missed this.

First thought: this sounds like an unfolding disaster.

If anything, I agree we need more hotel rooms adjacent to campus, but leveling Campus Corner would -- if indeed that's what's even being suggested -- extinguish every last drop of hope I have for that city.

Hopefully this rumor is wildly off the mark. There is more developable space in the Campus Corner district, not only by plugging parking lots but also by building height. Norman should densify from Main to the northern edge of Campus and large parking lots should be consolidated into functioning public / private garages with mixed use including retail and residential.

But please don't destroy arguably the best entertainment and retail district in Central Oklahoma.

The irony is that if this development happened, OU’s marquee area on gameday—Campus Corner—would be a construction site for the first several years OU is in the SEC. It would make a far worse impression and gameday experience for visitors than, say, just developing vacant lots or naturally continuing projects, or just buying out crappy landlords. This is why the SEC angle makes no sense.

One things for sure, whatever they do they will have to do it quickly if they want to be Day 1 ready. It can be done but it would be costly and I don't think $400,000,000 can build it that fast if they are truely going to 'scorch earth' Campus Corner. Just think what it would cost to buy out all the businesses, property owners and settle the lawsuits.

But please don't destroy arguably the best entertainment and retail district in Central Oklahoma.
I don’t know if you’ve been there in a while. It’s a pretty sad selection of businesses these days. Not the same as back in the day. It doesn’t seem very busy even when school is in session and there isn’t any real energy there. It isn’t charming, stylish, or even a good urban center. Something needs to happen. IMHO

I don’t know if you’ve been there in a while. It’s a pretty sad selection of businesses these days. Not the same as back in the day. It doesn’t seem very busy even when school is in session and there isn’t any real energy there. It isn’t charming, stylish, or even a good urban center. Something needs to happen. IMHO

I'm quite aware, and of course I've been there. Campus Corner ebbs and flows but it still presents uninterrupted urban fabric. Some of my favorite neighborhoods in other cities are funky and may have shops that don't interest me, but they facilitate foot traffic.

Without naming names, a real estate person whom I otherwise like decided to to put their heavy hand on CC back in the aughts, with mixed results. There are very few vacancies.

All I'm saying is don't allow widespread destruction without a clear plan in place to replace the leveled properties. Its funkiness is its charm. There are too many sports bars and late night clubs in my opinion, so you and I won't disagree there.

Personally there are very few establishments that would draw me to Bricktown -- and even fewer retail outlets than Campus Corner -- but I would take the same stance about widespread demolition of Bricktown.

Spent all morning in Norman and I photographed every single building on Campus Corner; I'll post all of them later.

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I don’t know if you’ve been there in a while. It’s a pretty sad selection of businesses these days. Not the same as back in the day. It doesn’t seem very busy even when school is in session and there isn’t any real energy there. It isn’t charming, stylish, or even a good urban center. Something needs to happen. IMHO

If you go back to PhiAlpha's post you'll see this is quite an exaggeration considering how many businesses have been there for a long time. It's not near as different as people are making it out to be.

Of course campus corner is going to feel like it has less to offer now than whenever it was the person was in college. That’s because it’s an area geared toward college students. The area has not changed but the person has..

Spent all morning in Norman and I photographed every single building on Campus Corner; I'll post all of them later.

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Thats great! Thanks for doing all of that.

I hope they’ll still keep the streets open and allow outdoor drinking in the district on gamedays. I think that’s what makes the area unique on gamedays compared to other college towns (or most places, generally). I don’t make it over there as much as I used to, but it’s nice to be able to buy a beer from a merchant without having to go into a crowded establishment and wait for service, etc. (While it used to be nice to take that beer wherever I pleased, I understand the modernization laws made it more difficult after the 3.2 distinction was removed.). I’ve been surprised at how much policing other cities and schools regarding open container. When I was at a tailgate in Columbus, I was told we had to put our beer in a red cup and keep it at the tailgate. While not much of an inconvenience, I’m glad Norman is lax on those issues as a policy.

The irony is that if this development happened, OU’s marquee area on gameday—Campus Corner—would be a construction site for the first several years OU is in the SEC. It would make a far worse impression and gameday experience for visitors than, say, just developing vacant lots or naturally continuing projects, or just buying out crappy landlords. This is why the SEC angle makes no sense.

I think when people see massive construction the think "progress" and don't get a bad impression ..

If there were to be massive redevelopment, I'm sure it would be a phased approach so the entire district wouldn't be out of commission at the same time.

Maybe they can just hire the people doing OAK and have it all done in 3 weeks.

I guess my main concern is knocking a bunch of successful businesses down before developing a bunch of vacant land. But from a historical perspective, I’d say at minimum keep the corner buildings on asp and Boyd as they’ve been minimally changed and have been the gateway to that area for 100 years, the boomer theater, Othellos and the buildings on the corner just south of it, the building Yo Pablo! is in which has been minimally altered, the Buchanan bike building, the building Pepe Delgados is in, the Blackbird building and the maybe the old Harold’s buildings. I don’t know if I’d save them because they are newer but I’d avoid knocking down Logies or the Porch in the first wave since they’ve both been recently rebuilt to add a second floor.

Also maybe keep the deli.

Agree all with this. Raised in Norman and I have spent many many days and nights on campus corner and half of the buildings seem like they are held up by the numerous layers of paint on the interior and exterior walls. Also, I think some of the challenge in blending campus corner into main street is the large # of churches in-between. Kinda hard to redevelop those.

Maybe they can just hire the people doing OAK and have it all done in 3 weeks.

And have the planning and other parts of the project take 6 years? No thanks.

Al Eschbach recently said on his show that he's hearing the same thing: Most of Campus Corner will be leveled and replaced with 6-story buildings; retail on the ground floor and apartments above and structured parking.

Said the University really wants it to happen and it's part of the big push for the SEC.

Also said he's hearing it will start in the next couple of years.


I've still yet to post the photos I took of every building in that area and frankly, there isn't much there worth saving. Yes, the collective adds up to a fun place but if you start looking at the buildings, very, very few are anything special.

I'll still post the photos and the numbered map that correlates.

I've still yet to post the photos I took of every building in that area and frankly, there isn't much there worth saving. Yes, the collective adds up to a fun place but if you start looking at the buildings, very, very few are anything special.

SAVE SUGER'S!!!!! Some of my best Campus Corner memories were made there!!!!! ;)

It was hard but I've gotten on board with a redo of Campus Corner. I just wish for 2 things. The designers understand that keeping some feel of nostalgia is important to those of us that spent lots of time there. And the designers give LOTS of consideration to the part of campus across the street which has such old and beautiful buildings.

Dickson st in Fayetteville has changed over the 20 years we lived/traveled there and it has gone from a worn down campus corner to a beautiful area. I hope the developers for ours takes a look over there. A mix of old and new works well for them, it can for us.

You should try and talk to Rainey Powell (Harold's). Owns and offices at the Boomer. He can tell you what's going on. This large scale real estate acquisition effort has been going on for some time.

You should try and talk to Rainey Powell (Harold's). Owns and offices at the Boomer. He can tell you what's going on. This large scale real estate acquisition effort has been going on for some time.

If only the guy cared about anything but himself and his dollar. One of the worst property owners in the OKC Metro. A sad, albeit not atypical story of second generation property ownership.

I'm all for a redevelopment of campus corner but in my perfect world, the developers will come up with a way to preserve the more unique building facades while building apartments set-back 10 feet or so from those facades.

If only the guy cared about anything but himself and his dollar. One of the worst property owners in the OKC Metro. A sad, albeit not atypical story of second generation property ownership.

I've never heard of him but I've also never tried to lease property around campus corner. What makes him a bad property owner?

I loved Campus Corner in my time in Norman, but it’s kind of sad seeing all of those pics and 90% of the buildings are identical to 20 years ago (with the exception of some minor work and paint). I went to Athens, GA earlier this year and was shocked at the difference. There were cranes, construction and new developments going up all around campus. It’s nearly identical population to Norman, but half the area. It would be a pretty sweet college to go to, in all honesty.

I loved Campus Corner in my time in Norman, but it’s kind of sad seeing all of those pics and 90% of the buildings are identical to 20 years ago (with the exception of some minor work and paint). I went to Athens, GA earlier this year and was shocked at the difference. There were cranes, construction and new developments going up all around campus. It’s nearly identical population to Norman, but half the area. It would be a pretty sweet college to go to, in all honesty.

Athens, GA is very similar to Norman and a good model to follow for urban development around the campus.

I've never heard of him but I've also never tried to lease property around campus corner. What makes him a bad property owner?

He has been known as the guy who kept raising rates on Campus corner and forced out all the local favorites over the years. Pretty much been on a downward slide for years as he owned it.

He has been known as the guy who kept raising rates on Campus corner and forced out all the local favorites over the years. Pretty much been on a downward slide for years as he owned it.

You can see that with the turnover there. Not making many noticeable updates to the buildings probably doesn't help either.

Heard a rumor that OU might use its power of eminent domain to take some of the individually-owned buildings on Campus Corner. Who knew they had that power?

Heard a rumor that OU might use its power of eminent domain to take some of the individually-owned buildings on Campus Corner. Who knew they had that power?OU has a lot of pull. I work for a govt agency that has lots of aircraft. They wanted to have tail numbers that all ended with the same two letters and the FAA said no. All of OUs tail numbers end in OU. Somebody pulled some strings somewhere.

OU doesn't have the power of eminent domain; that is only for local (like the City of Norman), state or federal governments.

Also, it's very rare (and legally questionable) for the government to forcibly take private property and then have it used for private development. Generally speaking, the new use has to be a public one.

OU doesn't have the power of eminent domain; that is only for local (like the City of Norman), state or federal governments.

Also, it's very rare (and legally questionable) for the government to forcibly take private property and then have it used for private development. Generally speaking, the new use has to be a public one.

I am pretty sure that OU does have ED ability

and this https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2001/05/21/long-live-the-queen-hammon-ou-encroaching/62145813007/

backs it up ..

Kelo v. City of New London held that the use of eminent domain to transfer land from one private owner to another private owner to further economic development does not violate the takings clause of the 5th amendment. The reason being that the use of eminent domain would cause the community to enjoy the general benefit of economic growth and thus qualified as a "public use."

I am pretty sure that OU does have ED ability

and this https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2001/05/21/long-live-the-queen-hammon-ou-encroaching/62145813007/

backs it up ..

Interesting.

Still, it would be a very shaky legal move to try and take private property and then give it to a private developer.

I suppose that OU could be the owner of the property with some sort of joint-venture with a developer.

Interesting.

Still, it would be a very shaky legal move to try and take private property and then give it to a private developer.

I suppose that OU could be the owner of the property with some sort of joint-venture with a developer.

and here is a paper on it


chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://shareok.org/bitstream/handle/11244/337588/2023_Ridley_William_Dissertation.pdf?sequence=5

Interesting.

Still, it would be a very shaky legal move to try and take private property and then give it to a private developer.

I suppose that OU could be the owner of the property with some sort of joint-venture with a developer.

i 100% agree with this .... OU to my knowledge as only used it to expand the campus ..

and there policy is to only use it as action of last result ..

i always thought it would be funny for OU to ED reaves park back from the city of norman because of how much Norman in the past didn't want to play ball with OU

and here is a paper on it


chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://shareok.org/bitstream/handle/11244/337588/2023_Ridley_William_Dissertation.pdf?sequence=5

https://www.mcafeetaft.com/eminent-domain-part-1-limits-on-the-power-of-eminent-domain/

Less than one year after the Kelo decision, the Oklahoma Supreme Court had the opportunity to affirm the stricter limits on the government’s use of eminent domain in Oklahoma. In Board of County Commissioners of Muskogee County v. Lowery, Muskogee County attempted to use its power of eminent domain to acquire two water line easements for a private company to construct an electric plant. The County, echoing the City of New London’s rationale, stated that the purpose of the taking was to spur economic development and greater job opportunities for the County’s population. The landowners, represented by the OFB Legal Foundation, appealed their case to the Oklahoma Supreme Court, and in 2006 the Court expressly held the Oklahoma Constitution provided more protection for private landowners than the U.S. Constitution, and that economic development, without any other rationale, does not create a legitimate public purpose or public use. The Court noted that “[t]o permit the inclusion of economic development alone in the category of ‘public use’ or ‘public purpose’ would blur the line between ‘public’ and ‘private’ so as to render our constitutional limitations on the power of eminent domain a nullity. If property ownership in Oklahoma is to remain what the framers of our Constitution intended it to be this we must not do.” Therefore, Oklahoma landowners can successfully challenge a proposed condemnation by showing that the proposed use is not allowable under Oklahoma law.

Apparently OU could not use ED the way the rumor has it.

‘Norman is going to be a boomtown’ awash in SEC opportunity
By: Chip Minty//The Journal Record//August 23, 2023

Imagine you have a rich uncle who’s coming to visit and to share some of his wealth.

The problem is you’re not sure your home is large enough for him and all his friends. To add to the matter, your neighborhood is kind of boring, so you’re afraid he and his friends might go looking for more entertaining places to spend their money.

The good news is your uncle’s visit is still a year away, so there’s still time to prepare, but no matter how hard you try, your house and your neighborhood won’t be ready to meet the standards your uncle is used to seeing.

That’s how Norman leaders are feeling as they anticipate the arrival of the Southeastern Conference, a tsunami of economic opportunity that will wash ashore next fall. That is when the University of Oklahoma Sooners will kick off their first season as a member of the elite cadre of athletic programs that have dominated college football for 20 years. But with this conference, it’s not just about football and it’s not only about the athletes. SEC fans are renowned for their enthusiasm, their willingness to travel and the money they spend. They like football, they like baseball, basketball, softball, and they don’t mind road trips.

And a lot of them don’t even need tickets to the games. They’re content with tailgating in the shadow of the stadiums, just to soak in the game-day atmosphere.

Ever since OU announced its move to the SEC two years ago, the clock has been ticking as civic leaders and Norman businesses assess just how many red carpets they must roll out for the coming onslaught.

“We are not going to be ready, but we’re going to move forward,” said Norman Mayor Larry Heikkila. “It’s going to take a couple of years to get there, and a lot of it is going to be market-driven.”

According to Norman Economic Development Coalition President Lawrence McKinney, the market already is gassed up, and it’s ready to roll with a dozen hotel and motel operators clambering to build in Norman. Land is in high demand right now, he said, and his office has seen multiple unsolicited offers from developers willing to pay millions just for property the NEDC owns.

“Not to take anything away from the Big 12, but the SEC is just bigger,” said McKinney, who has spent much of his career in the SEC states of Georgia and Florida. “We’ve been having more discussions with people who want to open a business here. Other SEC businesses also have contacted the NEDC about moving operations to Norman. Just the announcement that OU is joining the conference was enough to spark interest. There is so much opportunity now.”

University of Oklahoma officials say Norman is likely to see at least twice as many visiting fans at SEC home games than they saw in the Big 12. While the Big 12 requires members to provide 2,500 football tickets to visiting schools, the SEC demands 5,000 tickets for visiting fans, and SEC schools are not known for giving tickets back.

Economic impact may double – or even triple
Just in terms of economic impact, Visit Norman Executive Director Dan Schemm said revenue opportunities will be huge. In the Big 12, Norman sees an $11 million economic impact from each home game, Schemm said. Next year, with the SEC, the community will see an impact that is two to three times that big. Part of that will be from hotel and motel rooms, where demand will be two to three times greater, and the rates will be higher as well.

But Schemm said Norman may not have all the rooms to meet that demand, which is why Oklahoma City is licking its chops. Beyond hotels and motels, Norman’s Campus Corner and downtown are reliable entertainment districts, but the city needs more choices with live music and more for people to do, Schemm said. There is potential for SEC fans to migrate north to OKC, where they’ll find more rooms, more restaurants and more entertainment.

“We want to keep them here, so we need to up our game and look for ways to improve,” he said.

Schemm said the tailgating experience is one area of particular focus for OU officials. OU Vice President and Athletic Director Joe Castiglione said the university is considering several options for meeting the increased demand for tailgating space next year.

“There are several options the university is considering. It could be that we see some of those tested this coming season,” Castiglione said. “We know how critical the game-day environment is, particularly for SEC fans, and we’re exploring a range of possibilities to ensure that game day in Norman is a premier experience.”

Recreational vehicles are another area of focus, Schemm said.

“The SEC is big on RV-ing. They can come on Wednesday or Thursday, and they can stay until the following Monday or Tuesday.”

Currently, Norman has RV space in the Lloyd Noble Center parking lot, as well as at the Duck Pond across the street from Oklahoma Memorial Stadium. Additional space is at the Cleveland County Fairgrounds and at Lake Thunderbird, but Norman will need more than that. That’s why Oklahoma City developer Kale Streeter is planning a multimillion-dollar RV resort south of Norman, near U.S. Highway 77. The park will contain hundreds of RV spaces in a wooded area with amenities, such as a pool, a fitness center, a restaurant, a bar and a general store. Streeter said he’s even planning an aerial adventure park and a dog park. Golf carts will be available for transportation within the park, and a shuttle service will carry fans to the OU campus on game days.

Streeter said his proposed development is pending city approval, and he has not announced a start date for construction.

OU’s move to the SEC already has given Norman more visibility, and because of that, the community will see economic opportunities that go well beyond game days, said Norman economic developer McKinney.

“Norman is going to be a boomtown, and not just because of the SEC,” he said. “It’s also because Norman is a talent incubator with 28,000 students on the OU campus. This is going to be a great opportunity for Norman to grow its economy. Now, we have an opportunity to get a lot more dollars invested in Norman, and that will help our local governments provide more services for the people who live here.”

And OU opened Lindsey up for tailgating. So that will be huge, as well.

I wish Norman was as good as Oklahoma City about making plans and renderings available online. Sounds like there will be tons of developments throughout Norman for the next several years

OKC should invite the visiting RV'rs to post up in the Boathouse District for football weekends; can provide a shuttle service down to Norman and back.

OKC should invite the visiting RV'rs to post up in the Boathouse District for football weekends; can provide a shuttle service down to Norman and back.

Have you ever tried getting to the game from OKC? It's miserable. May be a hard sell.

I am interested in what cities similar to Norman in the SEC look like as far as their development near campus. I don't know that there's a great comparable city in the SEC. Most are either in large cities/state capitals (Lexington, Columbia, Nashville, Baton Rouge) or they are farther from "major" cities than Norman to OKC (Tuscaloosa, Auburn). Athens is probably the best comp? Would be very interesting to compare what those peers have vs. Norman's campus corner, etc.

Edit: I'm now doing some SEC geography review. Maybe Lexington is a good comp too.

I am interested in what cities similar to Norman in the SEC look like as far as their development near campus. I don't know that there's a great comparable city in the SEC. Most are either in large cities/state capitals (Lexington, Columbia, Nashville, Baton Rouge) or they are farther from "major" cities than Norman to OKC (Tuscaloosa, Auburn). Athens is probably the best comp? Would be very interesting to compare what those peers have vs. Norman's campus corner, etc.

Edit: I'm now doing some SEC geography review. Maybe Lexington is a good comp too.

I think Athens is a near-perfect corollary. Very close to a big city (Atlanta) but separate and the population is almost identical to Norman.

Upthread I posted aerials of the areas adjacent to the respective campuses in those cities. It's a shocking contrast, with Athens being about 5x more dense.

I think Tuscaloosa is a better comparison than Athens (albeit still not perfect). Norman is a half hour away from OKC, Tuscaloosa is an hour away from Birmingham, Athens is an hour and a half away from Atlanta. OKC Metro Area is 1.4 million (which includes Norman), Birmingham Metro Area is 1.1 million (which doesn't include Tuscaloosa), Atlanta metro area is 6.2 million (which doesn't include Athens). I would also argue that OKC/Norman are more similar culturally and politically to Birmingham/Tuscaloosa than Atlanta/Athens. For all of these reasons, I think anyone hoping for Athens-level density in Norman is setting themselves up for disappointment. Tuscaloosa feels more realistic to me.

I think Tuscaloosa is a better comparison than Athens (albeit still not perfect). Norman is a half hour away from OKC, Tuscaloosa is an hour away from Birmingham, Athens is an hour and a half away from Atlanta. OKC Metro Area is 1.4 million (which includes Norman), Birmingham Metro Area is 1.1 million (which doesn't include Tuscaloosa), Atlanta metro area is 6.2 million (which doesn't include Athens). I would also argue that OKC/Norman are more similar culturally and politically to Birmingham/Tuscaloosa than Atlanta/Athens. For all of these reasons, I think anyone hoping for Athens-level density in Norman is setting themselves up for disappointment. Tuscaloosa feels more realistic to me.

Norman should have at least half the density of Athens and has a big added advantage: CC is growing north and a suddenly thriving downtown is growing south.

Norman should have at least half the density of Athens and has a big added advantage: CC is growing north and a suddenly thriving downtown is growing south.

I agree, that's a reasonable analysis.

Also I'll add that I think the overall best comparison for what Norman should aspire to be is Denton.

I think Tuscaloosa is a better comparison than Athens (albeit still not perfect). Norman is a half hour away from OKC, Tuscaloosa is an hour away from Birmingham, Athens is an hour and a half away from Atlanta. OKC Metro Area is 1.4 million (which includes Norman), Birmingham Metro Area is 1.1 million (which doesn't include Tuscaloosa), Atlanta metro area is 6.2 million (which doesn't include Athens). I would also argue that OKC/Norman are more similar culturally and politically to Birmingham/Tuscaloosa than Atlanta/Athens. For all of these reasons, I think anyone hoping for Athens-level density in Norman is setting themselves up for disappointment. Tuscaloosa feels more realistic to me.

What is the area around Tuscaloosa like?

OKC should invite the visiting RV'rs to post up in the Boathouse District for football weekends; can provide a shuttle service down to Norman and back.

Amtrak leaves OKC at 8:25am and returns at 9:27pm. It's walkable along the Canal. Make it happen. ;)