Yeah say what you want but a combination of the one and done rule and the arrival of the thunder here has hurt OU and OSU’s basketball attendance. NCAA basketball just isn’t as popular as it was when it was the only game in town here.

It isn't just here, and it didn't just start with the Thunder. Plus, there are 1.5 million people in the metro area. Way more than enough to regularly sell out both. Not sure why people keep hating on the Thunder and blaming it for bad basketball teams at OSU and OU. Mindless blame and easy targets.

Don't mess with the Greek House.
Agreed. :)

It isn't just here, and it didn't just start with the Thunder. Plus, there are 1.5 million people in the metro area. Way more than enough to regularly sell out both. Not sure why people keep hating on the Thunder and blaming it for bad basketball teams at OSU and OU. Mindless blame and easy targets.Myself and a bunch of guys I hung out with in school had season tickets for years after we graduated. We stopped going when OU basketball's style of play became slow and boring. It had nothing to do with one-and-done and was way before the Thunder. I'm sure many other fans felt the same way.

The top photo is the area north of OU; second is the area north of the U of Georgia.

Norman and Athens have nearly the exact same population.


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/norman052523a.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/athens052523a.jpg

SEC schools by enrollment
Texas A&M (66,426)
Florida (49,827)
Alabama (37,665)
Georgia (36,574)
South Carolina (33,575)
Missouri (33,266)
LSU (31,414)
Kentucky (29,727)
Auburn (28,290)
Tennessee (28,052)
Arkansas (27,194)
Ole Miss (24,248)
Mississippi State (21,622)
Vanderbilt (11,834)


Big 12 schools by enrollment
The University of Texas at Austin 51,991
Texas Tech University 40,542
Iowa State University 30,708
University of Oklahoma-Norman Campus 28,042
University of Kansas 26,780
West Virginia University 25,474
Oklahoma State University-Main Campus 24,577
Baylor University 20,626
Kansas State University 20,229
Texas Christian University 11,938

^I'll take Norman from those two pictures. I love all the old houses and large trees that border the campus on the north and west.

It isn't just here, and it didn't just start with the Thunder. Plus, there are 1.5 million people in the metro area. Way more than enough to regularly sell out both. Not sure why people keep hating on the Thunder and blaming it for bad basketball teams at OSU and OU. Mindless blame and easy targets.

There are 1.5 million in the metro but there aren't 1.5 million basketball fans. No one is hating on the thunder but people have been less interested in college basketball games here since the thunder arrived...even when OU has been good.

Can't wait to see the plans! OU has needed a better campus corner for a long time. The tenants are nice (most, at least), but it is limited, and old.

I imagine the buildings most likely to be taken out are the buildings in the north half of campus corner. Those are not very architecturally significant and several of them—if not all— are in major need of repair. The Oriental Express building could also go.

Norman just had a city council election in which the candidates were fighting to be the most anti-development. They were primarily focused on preventing development to the east, however, and arguing for more development in the core (“up not out”). The residents around the core are very anti-development, but I’m not sure how much power they have any more. When I lived there last in 2013, they were strong but their influence seemed to be weakening. I’d imagine if the developer is as big time as Pete suspects, then they feel very confident they will have the resources, including political, to make this happen.

Addendum: now that I think about it more, even more could happen going east on Boyd from Campus Corner. The gas station and that small strip mall could easily be put to higher use.

I guess I don’t understand why any buildings on campus corner need to be demolished when there’s plenty of room for urban development in the area—starting with the massive parking lot south of NOUN, the parking lot at Asp and White, the parking lots on Asp, the strip malls like Campus Corner Printing, etc. Why destroy good urban fabric when there are plenty of areas that lack any redeeming urban value? I know Pete values quality urbanism so I feel like I’m missing something…

I wholeheartedly support new investment and redevelopment in the campus corner area. It's needed and the location is perfect for something really special. And parts of it have deteriorated or are less than presentable. That said, I am equally opposed to just leveling the existing district. That would be an absolute travesty, completely unnecessary and and irrevocably erase so much history and soul from the OU campus. There must be an effort, as others have said, to blend the two. So many architecturally cool and historic buildings. I've been to many, many campuses and we have some of the neatest buildings in our campus corner area. Some dogs, yes. But some really cool ones, especially along Boyd. Make this new development special, make it unique, don't make it like look every other new campus entertainment district in the SEC. We have that chance here. Let's not blow it.

I wholeheartedly support new investment and redevelopment in the campus corner area. It's needed and the location is perfect for something really special. And parts of it have deteriorated or are less than presentable. That said, I am equally opposed to just leveling the existing district. That would be an absolute travesty, completely unnecessary and and irrevocably erase so much history and soul from the OU campus. There must be an effort, as others have said, to blend the two. So many architecturally cool and historic buildings. I've been to many, many campuses and we have some of the neatest buildings in our campus corner area. Some dogs, yes. But some really cool ones, especially along Boyd. Make this new development special, make it unique, don't make it like look every other new campus entertainment district in the SEC. We have that chance here. Let's not blow it.
^ Well said!

^^^That!

I guess I don’t understand why any buildings on campus corner need to be demolished when there’s plenty of room for urban development in the area—starting with the massive parking lot south of NOUN, the parking lot at Asp and White, the parking lots on Asp, the strip malls like Campus Corner Printing, etc. Why destroy good urban fabric when there are plenty of areas that lack any redeeming urban value? I know Pete values quality urbanism so I feel like I’m missing something…

the parking lots south of noun are both owned needed and used ... the first is owned by the Presbyterian church across the street and the next lot is owned by OU

i would be surprised if either of these are currently in play

seems very likely that this project will massively transform most of if not all of the entire block north of Boyd between Buchanan and Asp all the way to White street

the parking lots south of noun are both owned needed and used ... the first is owned by the Presbyterian church across the street and the next lot is owned by OU

i would be surprised if either of these are currently in play

seems very likely that this project will massively transform most of if not all of the entire block north of Boyd between Buchanan and Asp all the way to White street

Yeah if we absolutely have to blow up part of campus corner in favor of new development, that would be my pick.

the parking lots south of noun are both owned needed and used ... the first is owned by the Presbyterian church across the street and the next lot is owned by OU

i would be surprised if either of these are currently in play

seems very likely that this project will massively transform most of if not all of the entire block north of Boyd between Buchanan and Asp all the way to White street

No surface parking lots are “needed” in any good urban area. There are better uses. If parking is needed than a parking garage can be incorporated into new developments there.

No surface parking lots are “needed” in any good urban area. There are better uses. If parking is needed than a parking garage can be incorporated into new developments there.

Yeah regardless of what is built and where…there’s going to have to be an investment in parking garages because i highly doubt any surface parking will remain if people are about to drop several hundred million on redeveloping campus corner.

If you compare those photos I posted of Norman and Athens, GA you'll see about 15 parking structures in Athens.

Norman has exactly zero outside a few on campus, even though the two cities have almost the exact same population.

No surface parking lots are “needed” in any good urban area. There are better uses. If parking is needed than a parking garage can be incorporated into new developments there.

this is not an "urban area"

this is not an "urban area"

campus corner and Main Street would be considered urban design areas.

this is not an "urban area"

Use whatever term you’d like: urban or walkable. The point is the same.

Regardless of what happens with the Noun and church lots, I'm sure any new development of the magnitude we are discussing would have structured parking.

If nothing else this discussion has made me think about how I've looked at other demolitions/developments. For instance I thought tearing down Stage Center was a solidly good idea. But many had attachments to SC. I didn't.
Now the shoe is on the other foot. I have emotional attachments to Campus Corner. Yes it needs some, in some cases a lot of, work but I don't want to see my CC go away.

^

Your CC is pretty much long gone. I know mine is.

It's almost all clubs now.

I hear ya Pete, but a place isn't just what it is now, it's what is has been and how the buildings, sidewalks and streets tell you stories.

If you can preserve parts of that while revitalizing and reinvesting, isn't that the best of both worlds?

I hear ya Pete, but a place isn't just what it is now, it's what is has been and how the buildings, sidewalks and streets tell you stories.

If you can preserve parts of that while revitalizing and reinvesting, isn't that the best of both worlds?

Of course. I can assure you no one is more sentimental about CC than me.

But times change and you have to start considering the real possibility they are going to want a pretty blank slate. And if you accept that, then you can start thinking about how it should be done.

What would you say the predominant architectural style of Campus Corner was in its prime? I see some (what I would call) Spanish style buildings, but don’t know how old or new those are.

^

Your CC is pretty much long gone. I know mine is.

It's almost all clubs now.

There are some clubs, but it’s just a few properties. There’s still a diversity of businesses on campus corner. I’m surprised to see you say this because it’s not true.

I think there is one of, if not the only, urban CVS in Oklahoma in CC. Maybe it’s a Walgreens?

Edit: Nevermind. Maybe I was completely intoxicated last time I was in CC, but a google search shows no CVS/Walgreens in Campus Corner? Did I dream this up?

I think there is one of, if not the only, urban CVS in Oklahoma in CC. Maybe it’s a Walgreens?

Edit: Nevermind. Maybe I was completely intoxicated last time I was in CC, but a google search shows no CVS/Walgreens in Campus Corner? Did I dream this up?

There was a CVS but it closed back in 2017 or so.

Of course. I can assure you no one is more sentimental about CC than me.

But times change and you have to start considering the real possibility they are going to want a pretty blank slate. And if you accept that, then you can start thinking about how it should be done.Ok. I'm coming around. I just hope it becomes something well done and worthy of the tradition the area holds for so many of us.

There are some clubs, but it’s just a few properties. There’s still a diversity of businesses on campus corner. I’m surprised to see you say this because it’s not true.

Yeah there are still quite a few stores, restaurants and other businesses. There aren’t really many places down there that I would consider “clubs” other than maybe Yo Pablo. Most are restaurants that stay open late as bars and even Yo Pablo fits that category.

Yeah there are still quite a few stores, restaurants and other businesses. There aren’t really many places down there that I would consider “clubs” other than maybe Yo Pablo. Most are restaurants that stay open late as bars and even Yo Pablo fits that category.

Go down there any evening that isn't a game day. It's like the Kong's/Sunset scene and it's far more than just Yo Pablo.

This is one of the reasons why an aggressive new development would get approved here... The City of Norman and its residents have been fed up for a while and I know OU isn't happy either.

There are three property owners that control about 75% of Campus Corner and that's why it's possible for a large-scale redevelopment to happen: They are all interested in selling and making a huge profit.

And it must be said, none of the three are considered good stewards to CC, which is why the district has evolved into something most people are not happy about.

Go down there any evening that isn't a game day. It's like the Kong's/Sunset scene and it's far more than just Yo Pablo.

This is one of the reasons why an aggressive new development would get approved here... The City of Norman and its residents have been fed up for a while and I know OU isn't happy either.

I have been down there outside of game day. It just isn’t all that different from when I was in school there. Some of the bars have changed hands but many of the same restaurants, bars and shops are still there. Brothers closing and becoming Kongs was probably the most negative change in the last 10-15 years (because the guy who ran it sucks). Most of the bars are restaurants during the day that get overrun by college kids at night…but that’s how it’s been for the 20-30 years that I’ve been going to campus.

It would be interesting to look at a comparison of campus corner before and after OU’s dry campus policy went into effect.

I have been down there outside of game day. It just isn’t all that different from when I was in school there. Some of the bars have changed hands but many of the same restaurants, bars and shops are still there. Brothers closing and becoming Kongs was probably the most negative change in the last 10-15 years (because the guy who ran it sucks). Most of the bars are restaurants during the day that get overrun by college kids at night…but that’s how it’s been for the 20-30 years that I’ve been going to campus.

It would be interesting to look at a comparison of campus corner before and after OU’s dry campus policy went into effect.

This is not the opinion of the City, university, economic development, and many residents. This has been an ongoing concern and discussion for some time.

It's why the city and local chamber sent delegations to other SEC college towns to see how they handle similar areas near campus.

It's also why this huge redevelopment plan is gaining steam.

This is not the opinion of the City, university, economic development, and many residents. This has been an ongoing concern and discussion for some time.

It's why the city and local chamber sent delegations to other SEC college towns to see how they handle similar areas near campus.

It's also why this huge redevelopment plan is gaining steam.

It is not an opinion that many of the restaurants, bars and shops haven’t changed for the last decade plus and they aren’t being run differently in any noticeable way from when I was in school there. If the university, city, etc has an issue with it, it’s been brewing for at least 15-20 years because the composition of campus corner and the crowd it attracts haven’t meaningfully changed during that time period.

It not an opinion that many of the restaurants, bars and shops haven’t changed for the last decade plus and they aren’t being run differently in any noticeable way from when I was in school there. If the university, city, etc has an issue with it, it’s been brewing for 15-20 years because the composition of campus corner and the crowd it attracts haven’t meaningfully changed during that time period.

I'm just telling you what I've been told directly by leaders in the Norman community and business owners on CC, and what I've been hearing for years.

There are good reasons that a complete redevelopment is now likely.

I'm also pretty sentimental about Norman and campus corner. Went to Norman High and then got bachelors degree at OU (about the time Fontanelli's and the Town Tavern aged out). Not sure if its the (ancient) lens I'm looking through or reality but it just seems pretty seedy there now. I do visit pretty often; love the campus and how it has changed. The campus grounds are very well maintained, even beautiful in some ways. But Campus corner establishments seem... low grade (?) No Hoops, Harold's, Love Light Bakery etc. Not sure what it is, maybe the structures just haven't aged gracefully. Buchanan's Bike Shop remains and hopefully it will survive this transition. (OK, Walter Mitty's wasn't high class, but still). In spite of any nostalgia, I would welcome a wholesale modernization with the right amenities.

I'm not offering an opinion on whether or not it's worthwhile to attempt a complete redevelopment of the area, but it seems to me that it is going to be very difficult to completely remove the "sketchy" element when there are always going to be a large number of 21-25 year old folks frequenting Campus Corner just given that it is located directly next to the largest college in the state.

Any sketchiness is due to the property owners and who they lease to, not the students.

What bars and restaurants do you all and/or the university/City consider to be sketchy clubs?

I would really like to see this development become something quite similar to the Railyard in Lincoln, Nebraska. During my time at UNL, I loved being just a short walk from a thriving night life. Plus the area had a ton of student housing option in apartment complexes. The closest comparison I have seen to these campus adjacent housing options would be theVUE, just to the west of John Crain Field.

What bars and restaurants do you all and/or the university/City consider to be sketchy clubs?

Yeah, I’d love more specifics because I think there’s only a few places that seem to really fit these over generalizations. I mean, Sugers was on Campus Corner for years and there’s always been college clubs/bars. I really don’t things are any worse than they’ve been in the past. These explanations aren’t adding up.

Here’s a list of businesses I put together in no particular order based on google maps (i put the approx opening date in parentheses where i could):

Bars/Restaurants




O’Connell’s (1968, CC 2006)
Logan’s/Logie’s (since at least 2005)
Louie’s (first location since at least 2005)
Louie’s Too (since at least 2005)
The Porch (2016, the guys that owned Pita Pit from 2000-2015 extensively renovated that building adding a second floor and patio)
NY Pizza (since at least 2005)
Blackbird/Birds Nest (2008 but closed in December and hasn’t been replaced)
Pepe Delgado’s (1992 Original location on CC, 2009 new location)
T.E.A. Cafe (2009)
Starbuck’s (since at least 2006)
Jimmy John’s (2007)
Maverick’s/Diamond Dawgs (2008ish)
Pickleman’s (2010)
Hideaway Pizza (since at least 2005)
The Deli (40+ years)
Othello’s (1977)
Fuzzies Taco Shop (2008)
Yo Pablo (2021)
Sideline Bar & Grill (2020?)
Skinny Slim’s (2021?)
Volare (2016)
Second Wind Coffee (2010ish)
1 Sushi (2009)
Chipotle (2008)
Crossed Cannons Brewery (2022)
Raising Cane’s (2022)
CupBob Korean BBQ (2022)
Nompton Social (2018)
Hurts Donut (2010ish)
Pho House (2020?)
The Surf Bar (açaí bowl place unknown date)
Insomnia Cookies (2015?)
Heist (2022…bar that replaced Sugars)
Moge Tea (unknown)
The Breakroom Nutrition (unknown)
Pinkberry (unknown)
Campus Corner Market (forever)
The Baked Bear (unknown)
Riko’s Tacos (unknown)
The Tower Energy & Nutrition




Stores/other


NOUN (2022)
Buchanan bikes (50+ years)
Balfour of Norman (45+ years)
Apothem (since at least 2005 but way older)
Rotating Sports Apparel store by Louie’s (always a sports apparel store since at least 2005)
Campus Corner Bookstore (2017)
Christian Science Reading room (since at least 2005)
Haute Boutique (unknown)
Precision Grooming Norman
Transition Hair Salon
Savvy (since at least around 2007)
Savvy Blake
Lucca Norman (since at least 2007)
Wild side Smoke Shop
Lifted Smoke & Vape
Think Ink Tattoos
Kush Nitro Club
First Presbyterian Church
Blush (since at least 2008)
Good Night Denim
Tulips
Tiny Tulips (kids store)
Anabelle’s
Midfirst Bank
Metro by TMobile
Blueberi Lane
Kicks by Tom
Moved Shoes
Mave Clothing
Las Donnas Apartments
University Administration Building on university and Boyd
On3 Soonerscoop (2022)

There are a few in there that I think people have problems with.
- Sideline Bar & Grill which was previously Kongs and was brother’s for decades before that (and while way better than Kong’s let’s not act like Brothers was a church or something)
- Heist which is the bar that now occupies the former Sugar’s location though depending on who you ask this is probably an upgrade despite my Sugars nostalgia lol
- Yo Pablo! - which was previously 747 and was the Bogert’s first restaurant/bar venture along with Texadelphia and Fuzzies.I realize Yo Pablo is definitely a step down but 747 was also a nightclub after 9 or so and had its share of issues as well (though it was always run much more like the Jones Assembly than Yo Pablo is)

On the retail side obviously people take issue with the smoke, marijuana and tattoos shops.

All of that said…I completely fail to see the urban hell scape that’s being portrayed here in that mix of businesses, several of which have been operating for at least a decade or several decades. It’s about as good of variety and density as anywhere else in the state. Sure it could always be better (more housing for sure) but I’m concerned a bit by the motives driving the push for massive change. It sounds a lot like the same people who pushed the dry campus policy and then a decade later essentially ruined what little good pregame tailgating scene we had by killing off Lindsay street tailgating and replacing it with a sterilized paid tailgating option on Lindsay and Jenkins. Our tailgating scene is absolutely pathetic compared to other sec schools after killing Lindsay St off so I’m highly hesitant to buy into some plan that completely sterilizes the only fun part of campus left on game days, etc.

I completely fail to see the urban hell scape that’s being portrayed here

Absolutely nobody has said anything like that.


You are failing to recognize that all three of the most universally reviled club owners in OKC have staked out a strong presence in Campus Corner in just the last several years.

And that has caused other places to become more similar to appeal to the crowd they bring in through outside promoters. I'm not going to call out any businesses by name but I will say you would be surprised by what many of these places have become.


Not long after this change happened, I went down to meet James Beard nominated Chef Andrew Black at Meatball House, his nice restaurant with very good food which was where Cross Canon Brewery is now. He was at his wit's end because the only way to draw people in was to go full-club mode, which is what his managers did even though he was reluctant. I went in there for lunch, there was literally no one else in there and the entire place looked and smelled exactly like a nightclub the day after a rough night. This was not the aftermath of a college bar... They had huge club speakers, a DJ booth, etc. Despite bringing in large crowds on certain nights, Black decided just to close shop.

Blackbird, which was a similarly good restaurant right next door, recently closed. Before that, the very popular Iron Star couldn't make it work in that spot either. CVS -- which seemed like a brilliant fit -- didn't last any time at all.

Yes, there are still some decent places on CC but they are all pretty unhappy with the current state of affairs.


Things have drastically changed and not for the better because there are 3 landlords that own the majority of Campus Corner and they are leasing to these places and allowing them to continue to operate. The property owners are likely getting a percentage of their profits and that's all they care about.


For all these reasons, the door has now opened for a big redevelopment project which is why this is being teed up at this very moment.

^

You are failing to recognize that all three of the most universally reviled club owners in OKC have staked out a strong presence in Campus Corner in just the last several years.

And that has caused other places to become more similar to appeal to the crowd they bring in through outside promoters.


Not long after this change happened, I went down to meet James Beard nominated Chef Andrew Black at Meatball House, his nice restaurant with very good food which was where Cross Canon Brewery is now. He was at his wit's end because the only way to draw people in was to go full-club mode, which is what his managers did even though he was reluctant. I went in there for lunch, there was literally no one else in there and the entire place looked and smelled exactly like a nightclub the day after a rough night. Despite bringing in large crowds on certain nights, Black decided just to close shop.

Blackbird, which was a similarly good restaurant right next door, recently closed.

Yes, there are still some decent places on CC but they are all pretty unhappy with the current state of affairs.


Things have drastically changed and not for the better because there are 3 landlords that own the majority of Campus Corner and they are leasing to these places and allowing them to continue to operate. They property owners are likely getting a percentage of their profits and that's all they care about.

But what places other than the 3 I identified? I agree that several of the landlords suck…they’ve raised rent and done a bunch of other annoying crap over the years. But it seems like people are acting like the entirety of campus Corner is terrible because of 2-3 places that have only been around for 5-6 years.

Also on the meat ball shop guy…yes the primary way to draw people in on campus corner, who’s primary clientele is college students on the campus nextdoor, is bars/nightlife. That shouldn’t have been surprising. I just don’t think a fine dining meatball concept was a great fit for CC. That’s a really specific niche type restaurant and I always thought it was an odd fit there.

And Blackbird was great but I have a feeling the high rents commanded by those landlords and probably labor difficulties and food prices probably hurt them to the point that they couldn’t afford the massive space they had after Covid. That happened to a few of my friends that run restaurants in various places as well.

And to be clear Pete I’m not completely disagreeing with you. I think a lot of good can come from new, likeminded property owners that care about steering the district in the right direction and making money but I just don’t think the situation is anywhere near as dire as it’s being portrayed nor do i think a full scale wiping of the slate is warranted. It feels like there are several in the university driving this that have already ruined tailgating and other things that affect the atmosphere down there so it is a bit concerning.

You aren't listening.

These 3 club owners use promoters to bring in a completely different crowd and the landlords are allowing it. A lot of these people are not college students, just like most of the people going to the crazy Midtown places don't live anywhere nearby. And it's how tons of trouble has come to Fassler Hall even though it has a very well-respected operator and the best possible property owner. There was a shooting at The Collective for crying out loud.

It's the same forces at work in Campus Corner. How do you think OU, the City of Norman and its residents feel about this?

I am not going to sit here and call out people, businesses, and property owners by name.

I'm just trying to explain why those who care about Norman actively put together committees to go out and research other SEC college towns.

And why at this particular point in time, a huge developer thinks it can find the support to basically scrape Campus Corner and go vertical. It might not happen, but there is strong momentum in that direction.


Also, it's a no-brainer that between downtown Norman and Campus Corner there is a massive missed opportunity. I've been saying that since I was a student in the 80s. And with the anything-is-possible promise of the SEC, developers are doing what they always do: trying to beat everyone to the punch. Then, after much slapping of foreheads, everyone else jumps on board.

I am not going to sit here and call out people, businesses, and property owners by name.

I'm just trying to explain why those who care about Norman actively put together committees to go out and research other SEC college towns.

And why at this particular point in time, a huge developer thinks it can find the support to basically scrape Campus Corner and go vertical. It might not happen, but there is strong momentum in that direction.


Also, it's a no-brainer that between downtown Norman and Campus Corner there is a massive missed opportunity. I've been saying that since I was a student in the 80s. And with the anything-is-possible promise of the SEC, developers are doing what they always do: try to get out in front of something. Then, after much slapping of foreheads, everyone jumps on board.

Okay I understand what you’re saying. I was just getting hung up on you or the university, the city or whoever saying it’s all clubs now (like the ones you’re describing in midtown) because that just isn’t the case. There are 3 or so places like that but it’s not even the majority of the nightlife down there that falls into that category. I know at least two groups that run 3 bars/restaurants down there (previously 4) that have dumped a ton of money/time into them and I think they both have almost always done a great job with those concepts. One of them in particular is a bar that’s open till 2AM every night and I haven’t seen anything other than the typical college crowd there.

Regardless I don’t feel like a complete wiping of the slate is warranted or a remotely good idea. Imagine if someone wanted to “scrape the plaza and go vertical” or downtown Edmond or 23rd or any number of low rise urban districts in around OKC. They’re now talking about doing that to an area that a TON of people inside Norman and abroad have a massive emotional attachment to. Public resistance to that type of plan would dwarf any of the protests seen against various projects that have been protested around OKC (like the classen circle stuff, etc). I mean fans were so enraged that a band director changed up the pregame routine a few years ago that the fans revolted against a BAND DIRECTOR then worked with the pride to get him fired. People are already mad about what’s been done to tailgating and have a high resistance to anything that might alter the tradition and gameday experience down there. Many of those voices are just above or below my generation and like many of the current businesses down there (similar to how your generation views the Denco Diner, the Town Tavern and other staples around campus and downtown)…it’s the only CC we’ve ever known. I think these national developers would be much better served by creating a plan that blends using undeveloped land and razing a few historically irrelevant underutilized structures than bulldozing all of it and starting over.

^

I hate to say this, but I believe you heading into your late 30s and are falling into the trap of all aging generations: Change is bad and is a sign everything is going to hell.

Change is an overwhelmingly positive force. There can be some negative aspects of course but in the longer term and in the bigger picture it's easy to see things keep getting better and better.

I remember when the old O'Connells was forced to move to Campus Corner and how they stopped letting students go in-and-out to get smashed there at halftime. I did it many times myself. Those changes brought absolute outrage but now no one remembers and it's hard to believe it was ever allowed in the first place. I can think of hundreds of examples from my past.

Time marches on and generally speaking, life and cities and colleges get better, especially when you are talking about hundreds of millions in investment and the fact we know much more about design and planning than ever.

HEY NOW! I’m 35, I’m not in my late 30s yet! I already feel old enough, come on man. LOL

But I’ve been mostly opposed to obliterating historic structures and districts since I was in college or younger (I was against tearing down bell isle and I was in middle school then). Change is good. Knocking down an entire historic district, that generations of people have an emotional attachment to, to build new when there is plenty of empty space and there are plenty of non historic structures to knock down…is not good. I’ve been fairly consistent in that for years and it’s part of the reason I found this site while I was in college.

Also completely agree with the paragraph you added about the missed opportunity to connect downtown Norman and CC. It’s insane that it hasn’t been done yet.

Other than the Boomer Theater (which has been under-utilized since even my college days and has been radically modified) what exactly is historic about surface parking lots and a bunch of non-descript 1-story buildings which have all been remodeled and changed many times?

Might be a good idea to start thinking about how this could turn into something fantastic.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/campuscorner031318.jpg

I generally agree with you, Pete, but I just don't find your arguments compelling. Using three bad businesses and a move to the SEC as an excuse to raze Campus Corner feels like a trojan horse.

First, many of the "new" issues you're describing are, in fact, as old as time in this area. Business owners of places like the Meatball shop (which I found a hard sell for the location when I first heard about it) have always been saying these same things. As you mentioned, Iron Star was great, but failed to find an audience. Blackbird did much better. Just think about the history of the Cross Cannon location... it's constantly changed over pretty good concepts over the years. That's life on Campus Corner. I don't think scraping buildings would do one thing to change this situation. It would just rip out any sense of urban history in a metro that has a terrible history of scraping buildings and then not replacing them or putting something worse there. Yes, there should be a way to address the shady business owners of the 3 out of like 100 businesses. But scraping one of the best walkable districts in the state seems like a terrible, and completely unrelated, solution. I make trips to Norman just to go to these crappy buildings and businesses you're dismissing (shout out to Emilio and Pepe's). There's a charm to them that you will lose with a rebuild. And there's plenty of room in the area for great urban development if that's needed. PhiAlpha's post shows that Campus Corner has dramatically changed is factually incorrect.

Second, how do we get from a move to the SEC + three bad business owners out of hundreds = raze Campus Corner? This SEC thing keeps getting mentioned without any detail or explanation. Did other SEC towns raze their historic districts and build anew? Even if they did (which I'm sure they didn't), does this somehow mean Norman should do the same? The argument doesn't make any sense. The idea that OU needs to move mountains to assimilate to the perceived interests of a couple thousand extra people for the 3-4 SEC home games a season is quite the overreaction.

I generally agree with you, Pete, but I just don't find your arguments compelling.

These are not "my arguments" it's merely the forces at work that have led us to this point and why things may drastically change.

Not trying to convince you or anyone else and I understand the concern.

Fair enough. Here's a follow up question then: Are there any barriers to owners demolishing large swathes of Campus Corner aside from public pressure?

Fair enough. Here's a follow up question then: Are there any barriers to owners demolishing large swathes of Campus Corner aside from public pressure?

In talking to people involved in Norman development, I don't believe so.

Think about it... Many small buildings have been completely razed over the years and sometimes something new is built and sometimes not. Also, every single one of those buildings has been heavily modified over the decades.

There have been a bunch of new structures built with no regard for height or style.