I heard a rumor that a development group from Texas wants to pretty much buy all of Campus Corner and build a huge multi-use retail/residential complex. The rumor says with OU going to the SEC, the game day revenue should increase substantially (They said Tuscaloosa has a $30 million revenue per game day and Norman is $10 million). Pretty wild stuff - anybody hear anything about this?

I heard a rumor that a development group from Texas wants to pretty much buy all of Campus Corner and build a huge multi-use retail/residential complex. The rumor says with OU going to the SEC, the game day revenue should increase substantially (They said Tuscaloosa has a $30 million revenue per game day and Norman is $10 million). Pretty wild stuff - anybody hear anything about this?

Very hard to believe because the properties on Campus Corner have a bunch of different owners; somewhere around 20-30.

I heard a rumor that a development group from Texas wants to pretty much buy all of Campus Corner and build a huge multi-use retail/residential complex. The rumor says with OU going to the SEC, the game day revenue should increase substantially (They said Tuscaloosa has a $30 million revenue per game day and Norman is $10 million). Pretty wild stuff - anybody hear anything about this?

I also find this very hard to believe, not only because of the disparate ownership of the area, but also because there would be massive protests from residents against such a change to campus corner. Norman is a development-averse city, especially in the core.

I’ve actually heard a similar rumor. But my skepticism matches Pete’s.

What could be happening is that plans are underway to acquire a large chunk of property, like from First Presbyterian or something similar.

Campus Corner is currently very full and active. I hope if something was to happen there it would not disrupt the fabric of that district, which is pretty great as it is.

There are plenty of un- or under-utilized properties that could be infilled with higher density.

I can't imagine that moving to the SEC is going to substantially increase the economic impact of gamedays in Norman. OU already sells out just about every home game. Maybe there will be a small boost due to most likely having one fewer 11 a.m. kickoff per year. The larger impact might be well down the line if the increased TV revenue with the move to the SEC allows for OU to build a basketball arena next to the football stadium in 15-25 years, because right now I feel pretty confident in saying that Norman is losing out on a large amount of economic impact on basketball gamedays due to the LNC being so disconnected from Campus Corner/Main Street. Lots of people just driving to and from those games without making a day out of it like they do for football.

The only significant change with the move to the SEC will be quite a bit more traveling fans.

The SEC requires a larger block of tickets to be allocated to the visiting schools, and SEC fans are very good about traveling to see their teams.

And with the novelty of Oklahoma and Texas being added to the rotation, I think you'll see lots more visiting fans that any time before.


I've been saying that the area around OU needs many more hotel rooms, not just for football games but for the hundreds of events and activities all year long. OU itself should partner with operators to develop a couple of mid-sized hotels on campus. There is tons of room.

Boren also had the unfulfilled dream of adding housing for alums near the campus. I lived near a college campus in California and it was absolutely fantastic. Great places to walk and tons of things happening: sports, theater, lectures, performances, and much more. If OU wasn't so far from everything I loved in OKC, I'd already be living next to the campus.

If OU wasn't so far from everything I loved in OKC, I'd already be living next to the campus.

Would having commuter rail access from Norman to downtown OKC (with easy connections to the streetcar) change your opinion?

Would having commuter rail access from Norman to downtown OKC (with easy connections to the streetcar) change your opinion?

No, because I want to be able to quickly check on things, which I do almost every single day.

Would having commuter rail access from Norman to downtown OKC (with easy connections to the streetcar) change your opinion?

Amtrak leaves Bricktown for Norman every morning at 8:25am and heads back to OKC about 9pm. That's something.

I imagine if there were a major group looking for development opportunities to take advantage of any SEC fan influx, they could create a pretty cool development at and around the Lloyd Noble Arena. Still pretty close to the football stadium. Campus Corner will be extremely difficult to redevelop that maintains the fabric the city loves about the area. The guy who built the new, tall building on White Street had substantial pushback due to its design and the height not fitting in with the area, though he ultimately succeeded.

I've posted before that I'd love to see parking-surrounded-structures like Lloyd Noble and malls build mixed use retail/apartments around them on the surface parking to revitalize them into larger walkable neighborhoods. I've never really seen this tried before... is there some reason why it's not viable?

I imagine if there were a major group looking for development opportunities to take advantage of any SEC fan influx, they could create a pretty cool development at and around the Lloyd Noble Arena. Still pretty close to the football stadium. Campus Corner will be extremely difficult to redevelop that maintains the fabric the city loves about the area. The guy who built the new, tall building on White Street had substantial pushback due to its design and the height not fitting in with the area, though he ultimately succeeded.

Virtually all of south campus is under-utilized.

All those weird, small continuing education buildings and other remnants of the army base years.

The university also owns a lot of land near the Duck Pond that is just sitting there. Then you have the OU Research Park which after 50 years is still only built out about 25%.


Norman has so much going for it: tons of trees and beautiful space, the university of course, great bones downtown and that area is really coming around, strong public schools, plus it's a suburb so lots of population growth.

Really unlimited possibility in Norman.

Been saying it for years, but that Amtrak route needs a gameday service between OKC/Norman.

Look at all this land that could easily be developed... And this is not counting University North Park and the airport and former 'North Base' or Reeves Park right next to campus:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/ou052323aa.jpg

The only significant change with the move to the SEC will be quite a bit more traveling fans.

The SEC requires a larger block of tickets to be allocated to the visiting schools, and SEC fans are very good about traveling to see their teams.

And with the novelty of Oklahoma and Texas being added to the rotation, I think you'll see lots more visiting fans that any time before.


I've been saying that the area around OU needs many more hotel rooms, not just for football games but for the hundreds of events and activities all year long. OU itself should partner with operators to develop a couple of mid-sized hotels on campus. There is tons of room.

Boren also had the unfulfilled dream of adding housing for alums near the campus. I lived near a college campus in California and it was absolutely fantastic. Great places to walk and tons of things happening: sports, theater, lectures, performances, and much more. If OU wasn't so far from everything I loved in OKC, I'd already be living next to the campus.Yes there will be more traveling fans. But the football games already sell out so there can't be more fans. Just an increase in visiting fans. I don't see how this would create a significant enough increase in Campus Corner business potential for anyone to spend a ton of money redeveloping the area.
I do agree that if someone wanted to develop a new retail/bar/restaurant area the south campus area has lots of unused space. Even without disturbing the nice nature areas.

Many, MANY sold seats routinely go empty on game day. There absolutely could be more fans on a weekly basis, simply by driving up real demand (and associated resale) via a visiting fan base that truly travels. OU fans, too, are probably going to be more motivated to go to games thanks to the novelty of seeing new, tougher and nationally prominent opponents. There will likely also be a significant growth in fans who just want to be there to tailgate and who have no plans to enter the stadium (a real thing).

Yes there will be more traveling fans. But the football games already sell out so there can't be more fans. Just an increase in visiting fans. I don't see how this would create a significant enough increase in Campus Corner business potential for anyone to spend a ton of money redeveloping the area.
I do agree that if someone wanted to develop a new retail/bar/restaurant area the south campus area has lots of unused space. Even without disturbing the nice nature areas.

First, traveling fans come for the entire weekend and stick around, unlike almost all the home fans who just drive home after the game. We are talking about thousands more visiting fans who will be spending very heavily while in town. The pre- and post-game festivities in the SEC are way bigger than the Big 12 and I'm sure that will have an influence on the OU atmosphere.

As Urbanized mentioned, there have been lots of empty seats at OU games mainly because the schedule is so incredibly lame. Never get Texas at home, so what is the big draw? Iowa State? Texas Tech? People just stay home and watch on TV for free.

Secondly, it's not just football. It's basketball (men's and women's) and baseball and softball and soccer and a bunch of other sports.

I also believe very strongly that the move to the SEC will highly elevate OU and Norman's visibility. Much, much bigger viewing audiences. Norman is already growing rapidly.


Even though OU's enrollment is currently at an all-time high, I bet it takes a good jump in the near future. It's already 50% higher than when I went to school there.

It is just pretty much just about football. The basketball and baseball venues aren't big enough to really impact local businesses. 80k seats for football is multiple times larger than LNC or the baseball field. Even the new softball field will be a fraction of the football stadium.

It is just pretty much just about football. The basketball and baseball venues aren't big enough to really impact local businesses. 80k seats for football is multiple times larger than LNC or the baseball field. Even the new softball field will be a fraction of the football stadium.

Football is also 6-7x a year versus hundreds of other sports and events.

That adds up. Almost every time I'm in Norman for whatever reason, I stop by Campus Corner.


I think beyond football lots of things are going to change in Norman as a result of the SEC affiliation.

Sounds like developers may be thinking the same thing.

If OU built a 10,000 seat basketball arena to the north of the track & field complex and put in the effort to getting the program back to the relevance it had in the 80's, that would still have a pretty large impact on local businesses, IMO. Keep in mind that basketball has about 16 home games per year as opposed to 6 for football, so if you could sell out all of those games (which OU was routinely doing at the LNC during the Billy Tubbs era), you're looking at about a third of the total attendance that football games get. Not to mention, women's college basketball is rapidly increasing in popularity. LSU next season will probably be the most talked about team in the history of women's basketball, and OU will be in the same conference as them starting in 2024-25. OU's women's basketball attendance massively lags behind peer schools in the SEC (most home games were far less than half-full last season despite the team being wildly entertaining), and that is something that will need to be fixed regardless of where the team is playing if there's any hope of continuing the positive momentum that the program has started to build since Baranczyk was hired.

All in all, there's a reason why OU continues to try and get the City of Norman to fund an off-campus arena at the University North Park development, they understand what a boon it would be for the rest of that development. Still, my opinion is that building an arena five miles NW of campus would be a massively short-sighted decision and that the best long-term solution would be to raise the necessary donor funds to build a new arena in the vicinity of the football stadium.

On another note...looking at the map that Pete posted, I continue to think that it would be a great idea for Norman to work with OU to build a first-class weather museum across the street from the National Weather Center. Meteorology is a rapidly evolving science that's becoming more culturally relevant year-over-year and will eventually justify a museum somewhere. Might as well be here...I think most people would agree that Oklahoma is just about the weather capital of the world, and I think it would have the potential to bring in significant tourism dollars, especially with the inevitable surge in popularity next year that will accompany the premiere of the Twister sequel.

Not sure how many tickets OU currently provides to visting team but the SEC only requires 2,000 tickets be made available, of which 1,000 must be grouped together in the lower bowl.

Each participating team in a single game are free to enter into their own agreements for additional tickets.

Let's just take basketball. This isn't the Billyball era. Right now they average a few thousand seats per game. The whole season doesn't add up to one poorly attended football game. And this league couple years have been the only poorly attended football games in a while.

Not sure how many tickets OU currently provides to visting team but the SEC only requires 2,000 tickets be made available, of which 1,000 must be grouped together in the lower bowl.

Each participating team in a single game are free to enter into their own agreements for additional tickets.

Those are minimums.

In practice, lots of schools allocate up to 10K tickets and they pretty much all get sold, as opposed to the Big 12 where almost every school returns a bunch of their tickets even though there are small allocations.

They allocate more for visitors because they want the same consideration in return. There is much more of a travel culture in that conference.

Let's just take basketball. This isn't the Billyball era. Right now they average a few thousand seats per game. The whole season doesn't add up to one poorly attended football game. And this league couple years have been the only poorly attended football games in a while.

I know, but I'm saying that the OU athletic department has agency and can make basketball games more desirable to attend. OU is still acting like the Thunder don't usually offer a much better product 30 minutes up the road which is a huge part of the reason that the program has languished over the past decade-plus, save for the 2014-15 and 2015-16 seasons.

Those are minimums.

In practice, lots of schools allocate up to 10K tickets and they pretty much all get sold, as opposed to the Big 12 where almost every school returns a bunch of their tickets even though there are small allocations.

They allocate more for visitors because they want the same consideration in return. There is much more of a travel culture in that conference.

It helps that many SEC schools are pretty close together or have large alumni bases near by. Alabama to Miss St is only 80 miles. Arkansas has one of the lowest visiting teams fan because they aren't that close to another power-team and the area doesn't attract SEC grads. Playing OU should help that.

I know, but I'm saying that the OU athletic department has agency and can make basketball games more desirable to attend. OU is still acting like the Thunder don't usually offer a much better product 30 minutes up the road which is a huge part of the reason that the program has languished over the past decade-plus, save for the 2014-15 and 2015-16 seasons.



I find it weak to blame the Thunder. OU doesn't do, or not do, anything because of their view of the Thunder. It is uninformed to say they act like the Thunder isn't a better product. There should be enough people in Norman and with students to fill the arena.

Basketball attendance overall in college is low.
https://cdn.runrepeat.com/storage/gallery/post/28219/total20ncaa20attendance20by20year-15901076-720.png


The average for all of Div 1 is only about 4,200 per game. OU averages about 7,500 per game. OSU is slightly higher. It is for darn sure that both would benefit greatly by having above average teams that would play an exciting style. They don't.

OU women's attendance is 43rd in the country at about 2,400. OSU is only about 1,900. They darn sure don't compete with the Thunder. What's the excuse there?

I know, but I'm saying that the OU athletic department has agency and can make basketball games more desirable to attend. OU is still acting like the Thunder don't usually offer a much better product 30 minutes up the road which is a huge part of the reason that the program has languished over the past decade-plus, save for the 2014-15 and 2015-16 seasons.
And that's not likely to change.
BTW. If it weren't for football we wouldn't even be having a discussion involving OU moving to the SEC because the issue wouldn't exist.

All those weird, small continuing education buildings and other remnants of the army base years.

That was actually originally a naval base instead of army.

https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=NO006
"World War II brought more changes to the city. In 1941 OU, with help from Norman officials, established Max Westheimer Field, a university airstrip, and the next year offered to lease it to the U.S. Navy as a training facility. During the war the airfield became the Naval Flight Training Center, known as north base, and the navy established the Naval Air Technical Training Center (NATTC), known as south base, south of the OU campus. A naval hospital was also established. The north base trained nearly nine thousand men, with the south base training thousands more. In 1946 the navy donated the bases to the university, but in 1952, with the advent of the Korean War, the military utilized the bases in a smaller capacity until 1959. The addition of the government buildings and land helped OU handle the large enrollment increase of the post–World War II era. This also allowed the city to develop, and the 1950 population stood at 27,006."

The NOUN Hotel was the catalyst and University Blvd is ripe for redevelopment and likely where any large-scale development would take place. Also Asp Ave north of White Street and north of Boyd St between Asp and Jenkins.

And that's not likely to change.
BTW. If it weren't for football we wouldn't even be having a discussion involving OU moving to the SEC because the issue wouldn't exist.

If it weren't for football all of college sports wouldn't exist. Which would probably be a good thing.

If it weren't for football all of college sports wouldn't exist. Which would probably be a good thing.

lol why would that be "a good thing"

I heard a rumor that a development group from Texas wants to pretty much buy all of Campus Corner and build a huge multi-use retail/residential complex. The rumor says with OU going to the SEC, the game day revenue should increase substantially (They said Tuscaloosa has a $30 million revenue per game day and Norman is $10 million). Pretty wild stuff - anybody hear anything about this?

I’ve heard the same rumor but also find it extremely hard to believe.

I've also heard the "rumor" and from sources that make it more believable than less. But would it be an entire leveling (as I've heard) or target less developed or well-maintained parts of campus corner? Not sure. I do know for a fact that a group of Norman leaders, primarily from the Chamber, went and visited a number of SEC towns and campuses to gauge what they have vs. what we have. From those visits, this idea has sprung. Whether or not this ends up happening, it is 100% true that there are significant movements afoot to expand/upgrade/revitalize retail and commercial areas and opportunities around campus and Norman to support our move to the SEC. The battle cry locally is to be "SEC ready".

Amtrak leaves Bricktown for Norman every morning at 8:25am and heads back to OKC about 9pm. That's something.

which is just about perfect for a 2:30 kick off. I’ve gone to a bunch of games that way and it was really fun. Grab breakfast on main, walk down to campus corner to tailgate then plenty of time (but not too much)to either grab a drink or dinner after the game on campus Corner or Main Street. As long as you don’t need to leave early or get there earlier than 9:00 it makes for a great day.

Look at all this land that could easily be developed... And this is not counting University North Park and the airport and former 'North Base' or Reeves Park right next to campus:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/ou052323aa.jpg

The university also owns nearly all the land between Trout and the train tracks and bordered north/south by Boyd and Brooks. My land lord when I lived down there sold to the university and it appears that they’re about to knock that house down after a few years of renting it. Guessing that will end up being some kind of housing development at some point unless they decide to add more campus buildings there.

There are a number of very large churches with very large parking lots around Campus Corner and south of Main.

I've walked around that area on a Sunday and there are only a handful of cars at any of them.

Similar to First Presby selling/leasing land for Noun, I can see something similar for many of those churches.

I find it weak to blame the Thunder. OU doesn't do, or not do, anything because of their view of the Thunder. It is uninformed to say they act like the Thunder isn't a better product. There should be enough people in Norman and with students to fill the arena.

Basketball attendance overall in college is low.
https://cdn.runrepeat.com/storage/gallery/post/28219/total20ncaa20attendance20by20year-15901076-720.png


The average for all of Div 1 is only about 4,200 per game. OU averages about 7,500 per game. OSU is slightly higher. It is for darn sure that both would benefit greatly by having above average teams that would play an exciting style. They don't.

OU women's attendance is 43rd in the country at about 2,400. OSU is only about 1,900. They darn sure don't compete with the Thunder. What's the excuse there?

Yeah say what you want but a combination of the one and done rule and the arrival of the thunder here has hurt OU and OSU’s basketball attendance. NCAA basketball just isn’t as popular as it was when it was the only game in town here.

lol why would that be "a good thing"

Kerry got beat up by football players in high school.

I've also heard the "rumor" and from sources that make it more believable than less. But would it be an entire leveling (as I've heard) or target less developed or well-maintained parts of campus corner? Not sure. I do know for a fact that a group of Norman leaders, primarily from the Chamber, went and visited a number of SEC towns and campuses to gauge what they have vs. what we have. From those visits, this idea has sprung. Whether or not this ends up happening, it is 100% true that there are significant movements afoot to expand/upgrade/revitalize retail and commercial areas and opportunities around campus and Norman to support our move to the SEC. The battle cry locally is to be "SEC ready".

Yeah the entire leveling thing seems full stop stupid. I would imagine some of the newer one story structures might be knocked down to make way for 2 or 3 story structures that better utilize the space or even maybe second stories added to some of the one story buildings but I highly doubt any of the truly historic buildings will be knocked down anywhere down there. Too much vacant and underutilized land in and around that area for that to be approved by the city of Norman.

Here are some areas that could be redeveloped without destroying the existing fabric:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/campuscorner052523a.jpg

^ I won't stand for this Skinny Slim's Norman erasure, lmao.

I've long advocated for the OU campus, and related services, to migrate closer to downtown Norman. This is something common in SEC towns/cities. A huge opportunity was missed when all the new student housing was placed south of the campus so I have my hopes up that OU and Norman will finally get on board.

Here are some areas that could be redeveloped without destroying the existing fabric:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/campuscorner052523a.jpg

I agree with everything on this with exception to the buildings on the west side of Buchanan north of Boyd and several of the buildings on the block bounded by asp, white and Buchanan, especially the bike shop and whatever the La Luna building is now (Nompton social?). That’s a cool old building with housing on the second floor. The buildings on the west side of Buchanan could be selectively removed but you’ll lose some historic charm if you knock down all of them (for example, the Harold’s Square strip mall deal could be removed). Would be better to redevelop the parking lots across the street and add a garage somewhere (like that big parking area between boyd and Buchanan that’s surrounded by buildings).

Also there should be a requirement to bring back Sugars…it’s closing was a travesty (LOL but kind of serious. it’s foulness and cheap beer were charming)

Okay, so I just did some digging and found out this is very real, as several others have said.

Also, it would involve the very heart of Campus Corner, not the periphery.


I am going to work on mapping this out and putting together more details.

It looks like this is going to happen so it's time to start thinking about what should be saved and how a much denser commercial project could be integrated in a way that would be best for all concerned.

Hoping against hope that this isn't curtains for The Deli, though I do fear the worst as all good things must come to an end at some point.

Meant to mention all this was all spooled up by a couple of national developers being attracted by the SEC announcement.

On another note...looking at the map that Pete posted, I continue to think that it would be a great idea for Norman to work with OU to build a first-class weather museum across the street from the National Weather Center. Meteorology is a rapidly evolving science that's becoming more culturally relevant year-over-year and will eventually justify a museum somewhere. Might as well be here...I think most people would agree that Oklahoma is just about the weather capital of the world, and I think it would have the potential to bring in significant tourism dollars, especially with the inevitable surge in popularity next year that will accompany the premiere of the Twister sequel.

FWIW, Norman is already home to the National Weather Museum. It is just up near Rock Creek and Flood rather than on campus. It's small, but has a lot of cool history and artifacts from the past century. I recommend visiting!

https://nationalweathermuseum.com/

Okay, so I just did some digging and found out this is very real, as several others have said.

Also, it would involve the very heart of Campus Corner, not the periphery.


I am going to work on mapping this out and putting together more details.

It looks like this is going to happen so it's time to start thinking about what should be saved and how a much denser commercial project could be integrated in a way that would be best for all concerned.

Yikes.

They better have some pretty beautiful renderings to offer for what is sure to be an absolute firestorm of resistance.

Here are some areas that could be redeveloped without destroying the existing fabric:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/campuscorner052523a.jpg

Don't mess with the Greek House.

If they use New Traditional Architecture they could scrape the Earth clean for all I care.

Thank you Pete. I look forward to hearing what additional information you find out.

In retrospect, this article from the OU Daily back in March feels like some heavy foreshadowing: https://www.oudaily.com/news/norman-economic-development-coalition-charting-course-for-norman-ou-s-sec-future/article_8838b92c-bd34-11ed-9eed-334e08c0dd18.html

Relevant section:


As the Norman Economic Development Coalition continues to roll out its plans, Lawrence said he expects the next few months will be “very high profile.”

Regarding other pending economic developments in Norman, the McKinneys said a pair of companies are currently analyzing Campus Corner to determine the potential of a $300-400 million investment.

The Norman Economic Development Coalition should know how far along those companies are in their analysis between April and June. It is also interested in potentially connecting Campus Corner to downtown Norman via a new commercial strip.

Good work Pete!

Excited about the potential but I've also seen Norman (both residents and city officials) fumble the ball <pun intended> too many times in the past...hopefully this moves forward and is transformational for core Norman and OU.

I'm not sure Norman deserves the reputation of being anti-development. I think they just want really good development and as it pertains to downtown and around the campus, things that adhere to the best practices for urban development. Downtown Norman is both vibrant and done really well and then you have the mega-sprawl of University North Park which serves its own purpose.

Also, even though CC is very full these days, I don't think anyone is happy with a lot of the businesses there. There are a ton of 'clubs' that bring in all types of trouble and keep away more desirable places like quality retail and legit restaurants or even nice campus bars. You've got the worst of OKC down there with places like Kong's (although they were forced out) and Yo! Pablo. It's very similar to what we all see as big problems in Midtown and Bricktown.

This has been percolating for a long time. If someone were to spend hundreds of millions and do this right, there would certainly be some outcry but most would see this could be a transformative opportunity for Norman. Perhaps preserve the southern part of Asp and best things along Boyd and then be much more vertical with housing, hotels, restaurants and retail.


BTW, it appears the developer going forward with these plans is one of the very largest in the entire U.S. and I personally know their CEO and he has very strong ties to Oklahoma and OU.

I'm starting to get excited about this.

In retrospect, this article from the OU Daily back in March feels like some heavy foreshadowing: https://www.oudaily.com/news/norman-economic-development-coalition-charting-course-for-norman-ou-s-sec-future/article_8838b92c-bd34-11ed-9eed-334e08c0dd18.html

Relevant section:

As first reported by OU Daily....

That is some really awesome news and insight there, Pete. Revitalizing that entire are with new and hip stuff would be really really great. Sure it's nostalgic to go down there now to some of those old places there, but something brand new, exciting, modern, and built for the game-day experience would be a game changer.

Joining the SEC is going to bring so many more dividends to OU, the city of Norman, and the state of Oklahoma than anyone could have imagined. It's unreal the SEC is such a train.

For comparison sake - take a look how much UGA and Athens looks like OU and Campus Corner.