These are exciting times for supporters of a regional transit system for the Oklahoma City metro area.

The leaders of OKC, Edmond, Norman, Moore, Midwest City and Del City have executed a Memorandum of Understanding and are in the process of creating a Regional Transit Authority for the purpose of developing a regional transit system.

Santa Fe Station has been acquired and is undergoing a $30 million Phase 1 redevelopment to serve as the Intermodal Transit Hub for the regional transit system.

Construction is underway on the $131 million, 4.6 mile Modern Streetcar system, which will connect to Santa Fe Station and provide "last mile" rail transit distribution service throughout the downtown area for riders of the regional transit system.

Clearly, It's no longer a question of "if" we're going to have a regional transit system...we're already well on our way...it's now just a question of how soon before it's a reality.

So, it seems appropriate at this time to create a new thread specifically dedicated to this very important issue in order to allow for valuable discussion and to keep everyone informed and up-to-date on our progress.

I'll kick this off by re-posting some general information to provide a brief review of where we've been, where we are and where we're headed:

Since 2005, OKC and other metro area cities have been working with the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments (ACOG) toward the goal of developing a regional transit system.

Regional Transit System (http://www.acogok.org/transportation-planning/regional-transit/)

In 2014, ACOG completed the Commuter Corridors Study, which recommended Commuter Rail between OKC, Norman and Edmond as part of the future regional transit system.

Commuter Corridors Study Executive Summary (http://www.acogok.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Central-OK-GO_Executive-Summary_FINAL-for-PRINT.pdf)

In 2015, the mayors and city councils of OKC, Norman, Edmond, Moore, Midwest City and Del City approved a memorandum of understanding to create a Regional Transit Authority (RTA) Task Force.

Mayor's Vow Cooperation for Regional Transit (http://newsok.com/article/5464097)

That task force, which is made up of mayors and council members from the participating cities, has been meeting regularly at ACOG and working toward the goal of creating an RTA.

RTA Task Force (http://www.acogok.org/transportation-planning/transportation-committees/regional-transit-authority-task-force/)

The next steps are the most critical and include creation and approval of a new RTA by the participating cities, followed at some point by a referendum vote on a permanent dedicated transit system funding source. The goal is to create the RTA within the next two years, followed by a vote on a dedicated funding source within the next three to five years.

Once a funding source is in place and the new RTA in operation, development of the various components of the regional transit system will begin. Rapid development of an expanded metro-wide bus system would occur in the first few years, with initial commuter rail service commencing several years after that due to the additional infrastructure development needed for that service.

While we're still a number of years away from having a comprehensive regional transit system, the good news is we're well on our way to getting there.

You can keep up with all of the news as we continue toward our goal here and at the OnTrac website:

OnTrac (http://www.ontracok.org/)

I'm going to copy and reply here to a comment by catch22 from the Commuter Rail thread, as it's very relevant to the the future regional transit system:


I think details like that are way too refined for the current phase. Given that the completed system will span different counties as well as different municipalities I would venture a guess that transit police will need to be independent of current police. I would also bet that the newly formed transit agency will either absorb Embark (or Embark morph into the larger agency).

As part of the current efforts of the RTA Task Force to create a regional transit authority, they will be evaluating the pros and cons as to whether or not to create a completely new RTA that would replace/absorb Embark or to restructure COTPA/Embark to become the new RTA. There are a number of legal, organizational, operational and financial questions that will have to be thoroughly reviewed before a decision can be made on that issue.

Thank you Hutch for keeping us in the loop with factual, non-biased information. Also, thank you for your dedication to this over the years.

The Modern Streetcar, Santa Fe Station and Commuter Rail are exciting transit projects to envision and discuss. However, creating a regional transit authority and district, and figuring out how best to govern and finance a regional transit system just doesn't have the same allure. But resolving those issues is critical to achieving our transit goals nonetheless. So, for those who are interested in keeping up with the non-sexy side of regional transit system development, here are links to two RTA Task Force presentations on where we're likely headed in terms of RTA governance and boundaries.

RTA Governance (http://www.acogok.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Presentation-on-RTD-Governance-Scenarios-4-20-2016.pdf)

RTA Boundaries (http://www.acogok.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/RTA-Task-Force-Presentation-on-RTD-Boundary-Scenarios-2-17-2016.pdf)

If you make it through those and need some rail transit excitement to wake you back up, here you go:

Fastest Train in the World (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Go5DYUTSMM)

Here's the potential commuter rail system that could be developed as part of a regional transit system.

13632

We're fortunate to have existing rail right-of-way and infrastructure in most of the right places to be able to develop an effective commuter rail system.

Here's the potential commuter rail system that could be developed as part of a regional transit system.

13632

We're fortunate to have existing rail right-of-way and infrastructure in most of the right places to be able to develop an effective commuter rail system.

Wow. That would be pretty incredible.

Love it! Let's get it done while I am still living ;)

That system would be the tits!

Just to be clear, all of the commuter rail corridors marked with stations are existing railroad right-of-way and most have existing track. However, we will likely be required by the railroads to install a second dedicated mainline for rail transit operations on the primary north-south (BNSF) and east-west (Union Pacific) corridors. The line to the airport is even in place, except for the short section that would be needed to get a station at the terminal doorstep. Also, the orange line without stations represents a likely Express Bus/BRT or Rapid Streetcar/Light Rail line up Classen Boulevard and out Northwest Expressway. And if you look real close, the current Modern Streetcar route is shown downtown in dark blue, with possible extensions to Health Sciences and Capitol Hill shown in pink. I have all of that information saved in Google Earth, so if anyone wants to see the system from a different vantage point (direction, height, angle), just let me know and I will post it.

I've done some light reading over the past few months about commuter rail and whatnot, and the biggest reason I've seen for it not taking off is the fact it doesn't have it's own dedicated rail, and there is zero incentive for those that own the rail to prioritize anyone's traffic over their own. Something interesting I hadn't thought of, but to me it makes a lot of sense. I think this would have to have it's own dedicated rail to be successful.

I've done some light reading over the past few months about commuter rail and whatnot, and the biggest reason I've seen for it not taking off is the fact it doesn't have it's own dedicated rail, and there is zero incentive for those that own the rail to prioritize anyone's traffic over their own. Something interesting I hadn't thought of, but to me it makes a lot of sense. I think this would have to have it's own dedicated rail to be successful.

You're absolutely right. Installing a second mainline will not only be a requirement of the Class I railroads, it will be necessary to provide effective and dependable rail transit service. Besides creating the RTA and getting a dedicated funding source approved by the voters, the other big hurdle is negotiating a workable agreement with BNSF, UP and the other railroad operators. It can be a win-win situation, where if we agree to pay for and install a second mainline, they will prioritize our rail transit operations during our systems operating hours and in return they will have a second mainline to utilize for their operations during our rail transit systems non-operational hours. Installing the additional mainline, including overpass widening and other infrastructure requirements, is the most costly part of developing the commuter rail system. However, it's still only 20-25% of the cost of developing a light rail system.

Here's the potential commuter rail system that could be developed as part of a regional transit system.

13632

We're fortunate to have existing rail right-of-way and infrastructure in most of the right places to be able to develop an effective commuter rail system.

Just so you know I'm not blowing smoke, or should I say smoking something, the rail transit system that I've described and shown in the posted image has been previously studied and determined to be feasible by Jacobs and other rail transit engineering consultants, including detailed work done as part of the Intermodal Transportation Hub Master Plan to confirm that Santa Fe Station could be developed and expanded over time to serve all of the illustrated rail transit lines.

It's been a number of years since the Hub Master Plan was completed and many of you may not know or recall some of the details of the study, so here's a few images showing the details of how all of these rail transit lines will integrate at Santa Fe Station in the future:

13634

13635

13636

13637

13638

Sounds good, let's make it happen.

Can't wait for my grandchildren to enjoy this. Just being sarcastic.

What would you say the chances of these even happening?

2030 is my wager

Nice. Just in time for my 40th birthday.

Nice. Just in time for my 40th birthday.

Mine too!

Mine too!

Me three!

Nice. Just in time for my 40th birthday.

37 here.

Can't wait for my grandchildren to enjoy this. Just being sarcastic.

What would you say the chances of these even happening?

I got involved in all of this in 2008. I was 47 then. I'll be 56 this summer. I'm hoping the OKC-Norman commuter rail line is up and running by the time I'm 65. And I'm an optimist. Seriously. That's just the reality of planning and developing a comprehensive regional transit system. But it is doable.

As I said previously, it's really no longer a question of "if", but "when". The initial phase of the system will likely need to be in operation within a decade or things will start to get ugly from a traffic congestion, quality of life and economic impact perspective.

The good news is that most of the necessary planning has been done. At this point, the single most important factor in determining when the first trains will run is the date upon which local voters approve a dedicated funding source to develop and operate the system. If our funding requirements are similar to other cities like ours, we'll probably need approval of a permanent 1/2-cent to 3/4-cent sales tax by local voters within the associated regional transit district. My guess is that we're likely 3-5 years away from seeking that funding. Assuming it passes, the RTA can issue bonds and immediately commence transit system development and operation. A new and expanded modern bus system would rapidly be developed in the first few years. Due to the additional planning, engineering and infrastructure that would be necessary for the commuter rail system, it would likely take an additional 5-7 years from approval of funding before the first commuter rail line was in operation.

All bets are off if we can't maintain the political will and leadership to get us to the point of seeking a funding source, or if we can't convince the public to vote to approve the necessary funding for developing and operating a comprehensive transit system. If either or those happen, we'll likely remain stuck for another 20 years in the 20th Century of transportation as one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country without a regional transit system.

So with such a system in place, could I do something like park somewhere close to the Norman depot if not right in front of it, take the first train out to the Santa Fe depot in Okahoma City and connect to to an Embark bus to 50 Penn Place (there is a stop very close to it)? That would be something. I would do that today if it were an option, maybe not everyday but definitely most days of the week. It would allow me to skip the minimum 40-45-minute drive to work, relax with some coffee or something or read the morning paper. Heck, even if the train were crowded I would still take it. Plus, not having to deal with the some of the idiots in this city we have for drivers would be a great bonus!

Frequency would definitely be key for something like this to work though.

So with such a system in place, could I do something like park somewhere close to the Norman depot if not right in front of it, take the first train out to the Santa Fe depot in Okahoma City and connect to to an Embark bus to 50 Penn Place (there is a stop very close to it)? That would be something. I would do that today if it were an option, maybe not everyday but definitely most days of the week. It would allow me to skip the minimum 40-45-minute drive to work, relax with some coffee or something or read the morning paper. Heck, even if the train were crowded I would still take it. Plus, not having to deal with the some of the idiots in this city we have for drivers would be a great bonus!

Frequency would definitely be key for something like this to work though.

You got it! The plan is not just to build a regional transit system...the plan is to build an regional intermodal transit system. That means you will be able to connect to any of the various transit modes...commuter rail, modern streetcar, bus, bus rapid transit, light rail...at Santa Fe Station. So yes, you could park at the Norman Station...take a train to Santa Fe Station...and then quickly transfer to the Streetcar system to get to a destination downtown...or switch to an Express Bus or Rapid Streetcar (depending on what mode is chosen for that corridor) to take you up Classen Boulevard and Northwest Expressway to 50 Penn Place. And the cool thing about commuter rail vehicles versus light rail is that they are roomier...they have work tables for laptops...and even bathrooms on board. Instead of stressing out as you crawl down the interstate trying to avoid all of the bumpers in front of you, you can relax with your favorite coffee and get some work done on your way to the office. How awesome would that be?

^That would be amazing! I look forward to this, if it's done properly it will be worth the wait no doubt. Appreciate your efforts on this, I will be very willing to support such a system.

^That would be amazing! I look forward to this, if it's done properly it will be worth the wait no doubt. Appreciate your efforts on this, I will be very willing to support such a system.

Thanks OUman...we need all of the support we can get.

Many of the metro area residents who will eventually cast the deciding votes for funding a regional transit system have likely never used a transit system. However, most of them have experienced the frustration and stress of wasted time stuck in traffic. And many of them are already aware that other cities like ours offer effective, alternative transportation options, such as commuter rail and light rail.

One of the best things transit supporters like you can do to help the cause is to visit with friends, family, co-workers and others you know that may not be familiar with OKC's efforts in order to help raise greater awareness, understanding and support for a regional transit system among the general public.

OnTrac has created an intermodal transit presentation that provides easy-to-understand information about what it is...why we need it...and what we're doing about it. Here's the link...feel free to share it with anyone that you know:

OnTrac Intermodal Rail Transit Presentation (http://www.ontracok.org/Files/OnTracRailTransitPresentation-Version9.0.pdf)

13645

You're absolutely right. Installing a second mainline will not only be a requirement of the Class I railroads, it will be necessary to provide effective and dependable rail transit service. Besides creating the RTA and getting a dedicated funding source approved by the voters, the other big hurdle is negotiating a workable agreement with BNSF, UP and the other railroad operators. It can be a win-win situation, where if we agree to pay for and install a second mainline, they will prioritize our rail transit operations during our systems operating hours and in return they will have a second mainline to utilize for their operations during our rail transit systems non-operational hours. Installing the additional mainline, including overpass widening and other infrastructure requirements, is the most costly part of developing the commuter rail system. However, it's still only 20-25% of the cost of developing a light rail system.

Okay, having worked for the BNSF/ATSF it's going to take an immense effort to get commuter trains on the mainline. One example is the new bridge going under 50th, will be single track leading to single track bridge over I-244. So no double track to Edmond. Going south from Burnet you have a single track bridge over South 59th, that the ATSF sorely need two tracks on, but since the govt was replacing the old single track bridge over 59th, and they (ATSF) wouldn't pay for it, it's another single track. Another single track bridge over Western, so there's some major expenses.

I'm not an expert in the finances of all this but it seems to me that a metro-wide commuter rail system in a place like Oklahoma City requires more than funding an RTA with a permanent fractional penny sales tax. It requires a fundamental paradigm shift in how we all view the typical modern American lifestyle. This paradigm shift probably costs almost as much as will take almost as long as the shift away from rail and to Interstates from 1945-1960 took. I'm optimistic it can happen as ride-sharing and automated automobiles upset the apple cart, but we have to be ready to seize the opportunity.

Okay, having worked for the BNSF/ATSF it's going to take an immense effort to get commuter trains on the mainline. One example is the new bridge going under 50th, will be single track leading to single track bridge over I-244. So no double track to Edmond. Going south from Burnet you have a single track bridge over South 59th, that the ATSF sorely need two tracks on, but since the govt was replacing the old single track bridge over 59th, and they (ATSF) wouldn't pay for it, it's another single track. Another single track bridge over Western, so there's some major expenses.

You're spot on. The good news is that everyone working on these efforts is aware of the infrastructure upgrades that will be required to make commuter rail a reality. And those requirements are being figured into the cost and time required to get the system operational. The bad news is that we could be saving tens of millions of dollars right now on future system development if the Oklahoma Department of Transportation was just a little more willing to support our efforts whenever possible.

For instance, several years ago and long before final plans and bid letting were completed, ODOT was asked to upgrade the BNSF 50th street railroad bridge from single track to double track so that there would already be two main lines there for our future needs. It would have been an easy thing to do and only add a minimal incremental cost to the project, as they already have to build a temporary "shoe-fly" bridge next to the current bridge in order to allow freight service to continue while they remove the old bridge and build a new one. All they would have had to do is engineer the shoe-fly as a permanent bridge to function in tandem with the other new bridge. Instead, they will simply tear down the shoe-fly when they are done, wasting considerable funds that could have gone to a permanent structure. At the time, they said it just wasn't in their budget, and that since we were only in the planning stages for commuter rail, there was no reason to spend the extra money at this time.

There is some other good news in that regard though. After considerable effort and pressure by OKC and the FHA, ODOT agreed to provide extra mainline track capacity for the new BNSF railroad bridge over the Boulevard. In this case, ODOT agreed to design the shoe-fly to be part of the final permanent structure. There will now be enough additional width in the overall bridge design to allow for a total of four tracks (two additional tracks). That decision was extremely valuable, as that section of the BNSF line will have to integrate directly into the Santa Fe Station terminal to the north and the additional track capacity will be necessary to ensure effective rail transit service in and out of that facility in the future.

Also, several years ago when the City of Norman undertook a major road project to re-construct Robinson Street as an underpass below the BNSF line, Norman officials worked diligently with BNSF and ODOT to convince them to build the bridge substructure wide enough to not only accommodate the current two tracks (mainline and siding), but to allow for a second mainline in the future by simply dropping in place the additional track and supporting beams....like this...

13652

13653

At the very least, this is what should be done on any railroad bridge that gets replaced in the near future and supports a line that is part of the planned commuter rail system. If anyone tells you that it can't be done, you now know otherwise.

It would be great if a more vigorous and unified effort could be made going forward between metro area cities, ODOT and BNSF/UP to find a way to upgrade any bridge structure along the proposed commuter rail corridors that gets replaced to spend the additional incremental costs necessary so that the structure provides for two main lines or can easily be retro-fit for additional track capacity.

I'm not an expert in the finances of all this but it seems to me that a metro-wide commuter rail system in a place like Oklahoma City requires more than funding an RTA with a permanent fractional penny sales tax. It requires a fundamental paradigm shift in how we all view the typical modern American lifestyle. This paradigm shift probably costs almost as much as will take almost as long as the shift away from rail and to Interstates from 1945-1960 took. I'm optimistic it can happen as ride-sharing and automated automobiles upset the apple cart, but we have to be ready to seize the opportunity.

You're spot on too. It will require a paradigm shift in the way metro area residents think about public transportation in order for them to be willing to approve and use a regional transit system.

There's good news here too, though. Slowly, but surely, over the last many years, metro area residents are becoming more and more aware of the benefits and need for a regional transit system, and the fact that every other city has one, while they're stuck in traffic every day on I-35, I-40, I-235, I-244 and Northwest Highway. It doesn't take many years of suffering through that to start being willing to support development of a regional transit system.

And those residents are also hearing more about local efforts to create such a transit system, whether through public meetings during transit planning processes or the increasing news reporting about transit system development projects, like the Modern Streetcar and Santa Fe Station. That support will only get magnified in the next two years when both of those projects are completed and residents get to ride a modern light rail vehicle for the first time and step into a our new intermodal hub.

What's even more encouraging though is the metro areas booming population of millennials who prefer to live and work in a dense urban environment and who strongly support developing a regional transit system for the OKC metro area.

So, I'm optimistic like you, and totally agree we need to be ready to go when the time is right.

Hutch and/or Mott, I can understand why we'd need the N/S BNSF corridor to be 2MT across the entire metro for the commuter rail to work well here - the Red Rock Sub carries a pretty hefty volume of freight and they'd need the extra rail to make it work. However, with such low traffic, would the E-W UP corridor really need to be rebuilt as 2MT? In the Chicago area, a few of Metra's routes are largely just single track, like the NCS line. It seems like UP's Oklahoma City Sub would be similar, and just need to have a few sidings added to enable it to carry commuter/passenger service... or is my thinking flawed here?

Hutch and/or Mott, I can understand why we'd need the N/S BNSF corridor to be 2MT across the entire metro for the commuter rail to work well here - the Red Rock Sub carries a pretty hefty volume of freight and they'd need the extra rail to make it work. However, with such low traffic, would the E-W UP corridor really need to be rebuilt as 2MT? In the Chicago area, a few of Metra's routes are largely just single track, like the NCS line. It seems like UP's Oklahoma City Sub would be similar, and just need to have a few sidings added to enable it to carry commuter/passenger service... or is my thinking flawed here?

My guess is you're right on that. Same goes with running a DMU or Commuter Rail vehicle to the airport. Stillwater Central has very little traffic on that line. On lines like those, a combination of adequate sidings and/or a negotiated arrangement (think fee) where the freight trains only run during non-transit service hours often works fine.

All of the planning efforts to date have looked primarily at the N-S BNSF line, which will definitely need to be double-tracked. We'll have to wait until the other lines are studied in detail and discussions take place with UP and WATCO to know for sure.

Hutch and/or Mott, I can understand why we'd need the N/S BNSF corridor to be 2MT across the entire metro for the commuter rail to work well here - the Red Rock Sub carries a pretty hefty volume of freight and they'd need the extra rail to make it work. However, with such low traffic, would the E-W UP corridor really need to be rebuilt as 2MT? In the Chicago area, a few of Metra's routes are largely just single track, like the NCS line. It seems like UP's Oklahoma City Sub would be similar, and just need to have a few sidings added to enable it to carry commuter/passenger service... or is my thinking flawed here?
The east west line could easily be done, much like the roadrunner between Santa Fe and Belen NM. The UP is a very low density line, probably not more than three trains each way from El Reno to Harter yard. Some passing sidings, and signals, which would require some dispatching oversight would easily accommodate any number of commuter trains. Going east to Shawnee, the track is abysmal, 10 mph on a good day. Power switches and signals aren't cheap, but the track infrastructure could be brought up to 49mph for a reasonable amount. Again visit the Roadrunner project, running on old Santa Fe mainline from just west of Lamy, thru Albuquerque to Belen.

Just a quick update. The RTA Task Force last week gave its approval for ACOG to send out a Request for Proposal (RFP) seeking to hire a qualified transit and legal consultant to provide expertise and assistance in creating a regional transit authority. The consultant will likely undertake a detailed review and analysis of OKC's regional transit planning efforts to date (system plans, governance models, district models), make recommendations as to the optimal organizational and operating structure for the new RTA, and then draft the necessary formal agreements necessary for creating the RTA. The task force hopes to complete that work by the end of 2017.

I think should add on commuter rails from El Reno to Shawnee and Chickasha to Stillwater . I think might like to go to watch the games at Norman to Stillwater there have lots of sports games like as bedlam (OU and OSU) or regular games.

Another thought on commuter rail, several years ago drove to Denton and used their commuter connection from just east of Downtown, also a bus center, to ride south to connect with DART, up from Dallas. Being a railfan on a busman's holiday, (38 yrs on BNSF), I bought the day pass for both systems. A wonderful ride in DMU's from Austria, self powered passenger cars, with great windows and air conditioning. Ran on an old rebuilt MKT line, and I believe, at the time there was still freight service at night. And it was a cross platform connection to DART for the ride into downtown Dallas. Nice! Sure beats driving to big D if DART gets you where you need to go.

Here is a link an important survey if you're interested to take regarding fares and how they're paid.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/survey-thanks/?sm=ez7e9N6gjyfMGymEViT4yfbtmPJd1ypqECE48h5YD2trdK jgcNNbg6rmFjPhRLta

That's the link to the end of the survey.

Here you go, AP:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/EMBARK_Fare_Study

Great story in the Gazette about the RTA efforts:

Local leaders make moves to establish a Regional Transit Authority (http://okgazette.com/2017/04/26/local-leaders-make-moves-to-establish-a-regional-transit-authority/)

Tons of misinformation in that article such as Americans are driving less. Not true at all. Horrible article.

Tons of misinformation in that article such as Americans are driving less. Not true at all. Horrible article.

The article takes a clear stance that it supports public transit, but it didn't seem to be filled with tons of misinformation. Could you expound on what makes it a horrible article? Also, could you provide evidence to refute the statement that American's are driving less?

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/money/4461764/driving-record-2016/

There are tons of more articles if you Google "record driving levels."

I see articles all the time about driving mileage hitting record numbers. It is a horrible article because it is inaccurate. Well, it being horrible is more or less my personal opinion on it, obviously.

Other misinformation includes saying the OKC urban apartment building show no signs of slowing down which is not true. It says public transit ridership is growing and growing which isn't entirely true. I know for a fact it dropped in LA despite the worthless investments in rail that were sold on lies and I've seen articles where it has dropped in other cities as well.

Statements like this

"“The days of pulling up your vehicle to the front door of the post office are numbered. It will become less and less of an option, and we have to adjust our mindset,” said ACOG executive director John G. Johnson. “For the average person, they might prefer to sit back on a train or bus and, over the course of their commute, check emails or read.” are laughable, not true, and are a good way to lose support.

Suburban housing growth accounted for over 80% of new housing growth. So you're gonna tell those people their days of living the way they want/choose to live are numbered? Lol okay do that at the next public forum and not some off beat news source I'm guessing the majority of people in OKC metro haven't heard of, don't remember by name, or read much.

If autonomous cars happen as fast as some claim it will(I have my doubts), the argument for mass transit about being able to do work or check emails is going the way of the dodo bird just like the argument that gas prices would force Americans out of their cars went.

Now I'm not saying that public transit ridership didn't go up as a whole, but that is to be expected due to population increases. Next thing you know freeway lobbyist are going to come out with a miraculous study that car ridership went up. Hint: it did.

I'm excited to see transit progress in the OKC metro, but if ACOG want to suddenly disregard investment in car based infrastructure for transit based, enjoy this small boom of transit investment while it last. Being as OKC metro is extremely particular towards roads and freeways much more than other cities like LA are and seeing as even LA is showing the residents there are driving more than ever, the residents won't take kindly and will be very quick to kill off transit progress when the city starts experiencing chronic traffic congestion. That is exactly what will happen.

So if you truly support transit, I'd be very careful with how you go about it. Again, I think this article is horrible and full of misinformation. It might not flat out lies, but they are definitely spinning things.

So, your issue isn't with the article, but the narrative that there is more of a reliance on public transportation and urban dwelling?

It's great to see Acog saying this whether it's true right now or not. Like it or not, reducing our dependence on cars and limiting road growth will be an economic necessity in the years to come. Eventually we will hit a point (maybe we already have) where we cant pay for our infrastructure or basic city services due to the imbalance of Infrastructure per acre vs. tax rev per acre. It is a good thing leaders are beginning to focus on transit other than auto oriented.

So, your issue isn't with the article, but the narrative that there is more of a reliance on public transportation and urban dwelling?

Eh, both. But more with the article.

It's great to see Acog saying this whether it's true right now or not. Like it or not, reducing our dependence on cars and limiting road growth will be an economic necessity in the years to come. Eventually we will hit a point (maybe we already have) where we cant pay for our infrastructure or basic city services due to the imbalance of Infrastructure per acre vs. tax rev per acre. It is a good thing leaders are beginning to focus on transit other than auto oriented.

I completely agree. If it wasn't for ACOG's efforts and leadership over the last many years, we'd be no closer to creating a regional transit system than we were a decade ago. They are responsible for the success of the Fixed Guideway Study, Regional Transit Dialogue I, RTDII, Intermodal Hub Study, Commuter Corridor Study and RTA Task Force. And at this point in time, they are the primary local governmental organization championing the regional transit system cause. Having participated in most of those efforts, I've seen how hard they work on these issues and applaud their dedication and efforts.

As for the article, it could have been better, but ACOG didn't write it. I certainly didn't read it as some sort of effort to spin misinformation. They are professional transportation planners and from my experience working with them, I know that's not their intent. It may not have been stated as precisely as some would like, but the message they were trying to convey is that Oklahoma City's continued population growth is going to force us to change the way we think about transportation, and that means providing transit options as part of a less auto-centric transportation network. And that involves creating a regional transit system.

That effort is all about providing transportation OPTIONS. It has nothing to do with trying to force people to give up their cars or to not live in the suburbs. And it's not ACOG that's in charge of expanding our roads and highways. Much of that responsibility lies with the State. And the Oklahoma Department of Transportation has made it clear that there will be no more widening of I-35 and our other metro area highways. I don't know about you, but I frequently drive between Norman and Edmond at rush hour, and as bad as I-35 congestion is now, I can't imagine what it will be like ten years from now. And as for driverless cars, unless they can fly, they'll be stuck in that same rush hour traffic on I-35 just like every other vehicle. That's the main benefit of rail transit...efficient and predictable travel times. Being hands-free and able to work or relax while you travel is just a nice secondary benefit.

I'm not trying to nitpick your post and I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but my experience using LA Metro, BART, Valley Metro, and DART tells me transit has extremely unpredictable travel times until you're actually on rail tracks moving. Even then, I still experience all kinds of delays several times a week using BART and METRO.

I will say I applaud ACOG for their efforts to bring commuter rail to OKC. I very much want to see that but I also really want to see light-rail from DTOKC connecting it to the south central(basically the ring of I-35/I-44/I-240/I-40 and Will Rodgers.

If you want current info there is an upcoming meeting.
Chamber Forum

Date: 05/15/2017

Time: 11:30 am - 1:00 pm
Location:
Embassy Suites Oklahoma City Downtown / Medical Center
741 N. Phillips Ave.
Oklahoma City, OK 73104

Learn more about OKC's regional transit initiative.

At the Chamber Forum, guests will hear from the panelists the impact and importance of public transit on our infrastructure and future growth.

Panelists
Mayor Matt Dukes, City of Midwest City
Jason Ferbrache, EMBARK
Mayor Charles Lamb, City of Edmond
John Sharp, Association of Central Oklahoma Governments (ACOG)


Price:

Member Non-Member
$40.00 $60.00

Just thought that this might be of interest. The Iowa Central , the regional rail company that loaned WATCO (Stillwater Central) the passenger equipment for the demonstration rides between Midwest City and Stroud, that impressed our legislators enough to approve sale of track, has pulled their equipment from trying to run a private (non Amtrak) train between Chicago and Indianapolis. Now if there's not enough market there, how will the proposed multiple trains between OKC and Tulsa work? Smoke and mirrors!

Just thought that this might be of interest. The Iowa Central , the regional rail company that loaned WATCO (Stillwater Central) the passenger equipment for the demonstration rides between Midwest City and Stroud, that impressed our legislators enough to approve sale of track, has pulled their equipment from trying to run a private (non Amtrak) train between Chicago and Indianapolis. Now if there's not enough market there, how will the proposed multiple trains between OKC and Tulsa work? Smoke and mirrors!

The problem with Iowa Pacific's Hoosier State service was Iowa Pacific. They are a poorly-managed company with excessive debt, old equipment, and a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants business plan. While they put on a good show offering costly service amenities like an on-board chef and first-class dining, they have frequent equipment issues and their trains are often late. Rail transit, whether it's local commuter rail or intercity passenger rail, is a viable and effective transportation option only if trains consistently depart and arrive on time. If you can't do that, no amount of money thrown at providing fancy dining is going to result in successful ridership. In fact, it will cause you to go broke. Most of us who support rail transit are actually glad that Iowa Pacific's proposed Eastern Flyer service was never implemented, as it was another project doomed to failure because Iowa Pacific's operational plan for the service was not viable or economically sustainable.

As for the Sooner Subdivision line between Tulsa and Oklahoma City, the Governor, Legislature and ODOT had every intention of selling the line, with or without a passenger rail commitment. In fact, the city council's of Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Norman and Sapulpa all passed resolutions urging the State to continue to lease the line and NOT to sell it in order to preserve the ability to develop future intercity rail transit service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. The State had offers from both WATCO and BNSF. They didn't sell the line to WATCO because of Iowa Pacific's proposed service. They sold it to WATCO because they offered significantly more money than BNSF. WATCO really has no more interest in allowing passenger rail service on their lines than does BNSF. If anyone got hoodwinked, it was the citizens of the State of Oklahoma.

Great news on the regional transit authority front.

The RTA Task Force and ACOG have selected Holmes & Associates LLC of Salt Lake City, Utah as lead consultant to provide legal, governance, funding, operational and other guidance as the Task Force moves forward with its mission of creating a regional transit authority for the Oklahoma City metro area.

Holmes is directed by Kathryn Pett Holmes, who has extensive legal, governance, funding and right-of-way experience working with a number of regional transit authorities and federal transportation agencies. Ms. Holmes served as General Counsel and Secretary for the Utah Transit Authority and as General Counsel for the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority. She has also worked extensively with the Federal Railroad Administration and Federal Transit Administration.

As the Task Force views Salt Lake City's very successful light rail and commuter rail system as a model for Oklahoma City's future regional rail transit system, Ms. Holmes extensive background in the development, funding and management of that system will be very beneficial to our efforts to create a similar system for the OKC metro area.

It is anticipated that Holmes will spend the next 12-18 months working with the RTA Task Force, ACOG and the participating metro area city governments to draft an official regional transit authority enabling agreement for consideration and approval by the city councils of those municipalities that will be a part of the new RTA.

Stay tuned for more information as it develops.

Transit group: Passenger rail is the ticket

By: Brian Brus The Journal Record September 6, 2017

OKLAHOMA CITY – Although the Legislature is struggling to balance the state budget, mass transit rail service funding cannot afford to be cut, said tribal, city and regional officials at an interim study conference Wednesday.

Just the opposite, they said: It’s time to invest in expanding Amtrak service north of the Oklahoma City metro area to Tulsa or Wichita, Kansas, or both.

“The interest from the general public is certainly there,” Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett said. “This may not be the best economic time to be designing grand plans for Amtrak, but certainly we cannot afford to go backward. If you start reducing your funding to Amtrak or to eliminate funding altogether, I think it would be virtually impossible to ever get it started again.”

The public presentation at the state Capitol was organized by state Rep. Forrest Bennett, D-Oklahoma City. Guest speakers were overwhelmingly in favor of Amtrak expansion in the state, although dollar figures were not discussed. A few lawmakers questioned the justification of Oklahoma paying a larger subsidy than Texas for the Heartland Flyer route, whether light rail might soon be replaced by unpiloted drone aircraft, and the degree to which the state should help the company’s own growth.

“I don’t want this to sound negative because I’m really intrigued by everything I’m learning here today,” said Rep. Roger Ford, R-Midwest City. “But when I look at the map … it almost seems to me that what we’re doing is asking Oklahoma and Kansas to financially support what would benefit the national network.”

“That is accurate,” Amtrak governmental affairs spokesman Todd Stennis said. “But let me explain it this way: Every state that operates intercity passenger rail service today, using us as the contract operator? They are contributing to that, just as the federal government is.”

Amtrak’s rail network primarily radiates out of Chicago in long stretches, passing through Newton, Kansas, on the north side of Oklahoma and into Dallas-Fort Worth to the south. Amtrak’s Heartland Flyer connects Oklahoma City to the heart of Texas, but the line falls far short of connecting to Newton and the Wichita metro area.

The situation creates a sort of cul-de-sac that has limited the line’s success, Stennis said. To test the viability of connecting Oklahoma City to the north, the company started running a bus between depots as a stopgap measure. Rider demand was strong, he said.

In the best possible scenario for Oklahoma, Amtrak would branch north to Kansas as well as to the northeast through Tulsa and into St. Louis, Missouri, said Evan Stair, president of the grass-roots advocacy organization Passenger Rail Oklahoma. He suggested paying for the idea with dedicated tax collections similar to Oklahoma City’s successful MAPS issues.

No one directly addressed his proposal, nor did attendees explicitly favor one extension to the exclusion of the other. Regardless of the choice, a rail expansion would also need more development of other mass transit modes at the terminus, said John Sharp, transportation director at the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments. Bus systems feed light rails, he said, which is why Oklahoma City officials are planning space for an intermodal hub near downtown.

ACOG’s research suggests the population and employment will grow by 40 percent in the next 30 years, forcing roads to support about 50 percent more automobile traffic. Passenger rail will not only foster job development in the immediate vicinity but also engender stronger business-to-business connections among cities along the line, as has been the experience with the Dallas Area Rapid Transit.

Neal McCaleb, Chickasaw Nation ambassador, said his tribe is willing to help fund an expansion because it would bring more customers to casinos and other tribal businesses. The Chickasaws have already made a commitment to significantly upgrade the Thackerville depot, he said.

Roy Williams, president of the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, said his organization will actively oppose reductions in state and federal funding of passenger rail service. He said the city cannot afford to become like Austin.

“We spent two days down there hearing from them how bad things are,” he said. “Their Achilles’ heel is transportation, the one thing they did not plan. … In fact, they did the opposite. Their attitude was, ‘If you build it, they will come.’ So (city leaders) decided not to build it. They came anyway. That is going to be the thing that kills Austin one day, the inability to get around that metropolitan area. And that they can never afford to catch up.”

I can remember the Texas Chief was full between OKC and Arkansas City, on it's way to Newton Kansas City, And Chicago......

Transit group: Passenger rail is the ticket

By: Brian Brus The Journal Record September 6, 2017

Neal McCaleb, Chickasaw Nation ambassador, said his tribe is willing to help fund an expansion because it would bring more customers to casinos and other tribal businesses. The Chickasaws have already made a commitment to significantly upgrade the Thackerville depot, he said.


What depot? There isn't one there today.

They are planning to build one so both Oklahomans and Texans will take the train there to drop money on the their casino, they showed a diagram of where it would go at the meeting.

Consultant hired for proposed regional transit authority

By: Brian Brus The Journal Record September 11, 2017

OKLAHOMA CITY – The Association of Central Oklahoma Governments has contracted with a player in developing Salt Lake City, Utah’s mass transit system to plan out the geopolitical structure of a new regional transit authority.

A committee composed of ACOG staff and elected officials who serve on the organization’s board of directors awarded the $420,000 contract in a competitive bid process to Kathryn Holmes, head of Holmes & Associates, Executive Director John Johnson said.

Holmes was the chief negotiator for the Utah Transit Authority about 15 years ago, helping that agency acquire 175 miles of Union Pacific Railroad track and rights of way for conversion to commuter rail. Since then, she has worked as general counsel at Westminster College and partner in a legal practice focusing on passenger rail infrastructure. Holmes described her operation to The Journal Record as small with several subcontractor relationships.

The nonprofit leadership group formed a multi-municipal task force about a year ago to develop a new approach to commuter transit that could ultimately lead to a network of several linked modes, including rail, bus and bicycling. Early discussions included possibilities such as rail near the University of Oklahoma campus and Tinker Air Force Base linked at a hub in Oklahoma City. ACOG invited Edmond, Oklahoma City, Midwest City, Del City, Norman and Moore to the table.

“I certainly think that we can define the governance and structure of the organization and where boundaries are going to be,” Johnson said. “This is going to require each of those cities to give up some authority that they normally have 100 percent control of. It’s going to require some rethinking of how we proceed.”

Holmes said she is eager to study the Oklahoma City area at a deeper level to identify unique attributes that will define how a new regional transit authority will evolve.

She and Johnson said Salt Lake City tops their lists of peer regions most appropriate for comparison. Johnson also cited Denver, Colorado, and Phoenix, Arizona, because they’re all heavily automobile-dependent cultures with large land areas to cover, unlike cities in the Northeast.

Holmes cited the San Diego County model because it clearly defines a labor and construction relationship between the metropolitan planning organization and the individual member cities. The Portland, Oregon-based system has a separate streetcar component outside the regional transit authority. Arizona’s member municipalities run their own bus services with rail being managed out of a separate, centralized transit authority, she said.

“That may or may not work for your community, given that you’ve already got three separate systems running of your own,” she said. “We’ll have to find out what your community’s values are and your overarching goals. We might pull ideas from several models to find something that works best.”

They are planning to build one so both Oklahomans and Texans will take the train there to drop money on the their casino, they showed a diagram of where it would go at the meeting.

I was fooled by McCaleb's use of "upgrade" as that implies there is an existing depot.

Are they going to put the depot in tow where they can use existing sidings or will it be further south closer to WinStar?

The graphic they put on the screen seemed right next to the rail. I suspect they'd just shuttle folks to the door step of winstar.

http://journalrecord.com/2017/11/15/before-regional-transit-cities-must-agree-on-structure/

I don’t have a sub so I can’t post the article. If someone does have a sub please post it.

In my hometown of Cincinnati, there are also multiple transit agencies and one of the local leaders proposed to consolidate them in 2020.

The problem there is that multiple states are involved (Ohio and Kentucky). Ohio allows a sales tax to be levied specifically for transit up to I believe 1%, Kentucky does not. Meanwhile, the agency responsible for Cincinnati's bus system (and operates the city's streetcar for the city) needs a major influx of funding to remain sustainable and is proposing such a sales tax.

http://www.go-metro.com/news/819/72/2018-Budget-Balanced-But-Options-Running-Out-for-S.O.R.T.A./d,News%20Detail%20Sample

What interests me is that here, there is already a consolidation plan in play, and it doesn't seem that the existing agencies are failing so much as there's a desire to expand service.