Thank you captain obvious and thank you for clarifying!!!! Oh geez, what could be with millions of dollars of public infrastructure and subsidies!!! We are better off subsidizing memorial and downtown. Sarcasam
Btw, Oaks is at neither Memorial nor downtown and wasn’t subsidized. There was organic demand and the developers decided on quality and style of development based on good business planning. Maybe Crossroads could find a developer to do the same there instead of pie in the sky plans and wishes. The Last few owners of Crossroads didnt have well planned development and they keep failing. Maybe it shouldnt be forced to be something unsupportable, either by public or private invest.

Yeah, not having a stop at Crossroads is criminal.

Btw, Oaks is at neither Memorial nor downtown and wasn’t subsidized. There was organic demand and the developers decided on quality and style of development based on good business planning. Maybe Crossroads could find a developer to do the same there instead of pie in the sky plans and wishes. The Last few owners of Crossroads didnt have well planned development and they keep failing. Maybe it shouldnt be forced to be something unsupportable, either by public or private invest.

TOD is a development tool. Were a stop planned at Crossroads, there would be more incentive and opportunity for new developers to come in with fresh ideas to transform the area into something better.

TOD is a development tool. Were a stop planned at Crossroads, there would be more incentive and opportunity for new developers to come in with fresh ideas to transform the area into something better.

unless the industrial / trash dump / and demographics were to change that is not a great spot for a TOD spot ..

unless the industrial / trash dump / and demographics were to change that is not a great spot for a TOD spot ..

At a minimum it's the most sensible place for a connection to Tinker. It's a slam dunk spot for a stop.

At a minimum it's the most sensible place for a connection to Tinker. It's a slam dunk spot for a stop.

the most sensible place to connect to tinker is the Sante Fe station

unless the industrial / trash dump / and demographics were to change that is not a great spot for a TOD spot ..

You don't think that a massive plot of land that could easily be cleared for a mixed-use development centered around a fixed transit stop - at the intersection of two major interstate highways no less - is not a great TOD opportunity? Come now.

TOD is used to incentivize what you *want* to see in an area. And that area needs a helping hand up in the worst way.

You don't think that a massive plot of land that could easily be cleared for a mixed-use development centered around a fixed transit stop - at the intersection of two major interstate highways no less - is not a great TOD opportunity? Come now.

TOD is used to incentivize what you *want* to see in an area. And that area needs a helping hand up in the worst way.
It could be, but then again Boulder sooner does have a valid point. I don’t usually agree with him on much but he is absolutely correct in this instance in my opinion and I don’t mean to sit on a high horse here it’s just my own opinion. But I really don’t see how this site could be developed into something mixed use. This will have to be a suburban low density development. I think something like a medieval times or something like that to draw people would be a complete hit. But there has to be a big draw. Something to attract people here because otherwise this area quite frankly is a joke.

TOD is a development tool. Were a stop planned at Crossroads, there would be more incentive and opportunity for new developers to come in with fresh ideas to transform the area into something better.

^ THIS^

A Transit-Oriented Development spot (TOD) for an area like Crossroads Mall, IMO could kick-start development and transform that area. Despite the Dumpsite near the area, it's far enough away from the mall that it shouldn't be a concern.

A transit development there would be a plus for OKC.

^ THIS^

A Transit-Oriented Development spot (TOD) for an area like Crossroads Mall, IMO could kick-start development and transform that area. Despite the Dumpsite near the area, it's far enough away from the mall that it shouldn't be a concern.

A transit development there would be a plus for OKC.

I visited Crossroads often when it was thriving. The dump site was there then and I never gave it a second thought.

The landfill should not be a huge issue here because OKC rarely gets east-northeast winds.

It could be, but then again Boulder sooner does have a valid point. I don’t usually agree with him on much but he is absolutely correct in this instance in my opinion and I don’t mean to sit on a high horse here it’s just my own opinion. But I really don’t see how this site could be developed into something mixed use. This will have to be a suburban low density development. I think something like a medieval times or something like that to draw people would be a complete hit. But there has to be a big draw. Something to attract people here because otherwise this area quite frankly is a joke.

Whether you keep and repurpose the mall or knock it down, there's still a lot of space to plan a development around a transit stop. I think the commuter rail stop would likely need to be built first (or at least the RTA needs to commit to it) and then you grow the rest of the development around that. I'm not a developer myself, but from a layman's standpoint I'd think a good place to start would be apartments over retail clustered close to the station, maybe with a park or plaza right in front of the station in the middle of everything. Put the station close to SE 66th St / Crossroads Blvd, where it crosses the train tracks - this road already hosts the 14 bus route, so it would easily tie in with Embark too. Santa Fe South and Dove Science Academy are both within this development area, which would help draw families to the area - and the transit stop would also enable greater access for students living farther away. The old AMC theater (ex Cinemark) could be brought back to life with more modern amenities. Pharmacorr currently offices out of the old dollar theater (that used to be a General Cinemas back in the day), and with the amount of land here, an office building or three would easily be doable... and proximity to transit would be a benefit to the employees that office there. There's definitely room here for some destination retail - something like an Ikea or Medieval Times, etc. Ideally that would be close to the highway intersection for maximum visibility, like if they could convince Dove Science Academy to sell (or offer a land swap deal).

Honestly, there's a ton of unrealized opportunity here that could really help revitalize the Crossroads area. It doesn't take much to imagine what could be, since there's so much raw land and so many empty parking lots here.

I am glad others are seeing what I see.

In terms of connectivity this land is really separated from the surrounding areas due to its proximity to railroads and the interstate. What this means is you wont have very much interaction. This area is almost like an island of sorts with only 3 "bridges". (Pole, 66th, and Crossroads Blvd).

A developer with deep pockets and TOD experience could almost make a second city center out of this. Its 5 miles to Downtown, Tinker, Will Rogers, and 10 miles from OU...

the most sensible place to connect to tinker is the Sante Fe station

The spur to Tinker literally happens at Crossroads....why would you force Norman originators to go to Santa Fe and then tread half of the journey back to go to Tinker?

OKC needs to give up right now on transit if it doesn't establish transfer stations outside of downtown. Crossroads is one of the Top 3 points for a transfer station.

I feel like developing different sections of the parking lot and eventually the demolishing the entire mall and turning the area into apartments with internal courtyards for greenspaces and structured parking. You could eventually have some first floor retail and restaurants you would have room and the area demographics for a grocery store. In 20-25 years, you could have a fairly walkable community in the area. Just do it in phases taking different parts of the massive parking lot that are not being utilized. I think it is an awful idea to keep trying to renovate that mall.

The spur to Tinker literally happens at Crossroads....why would you force Norman originators to go to Santa Fe and then tread half of the journey back to go to Tinker?

OKC needs to give up right now on transit if it doesn't establish transfer stations outside of downtown. Crossroads is one of the Top 3 points for a transfer station.

The RTA has already adopted a transit plan (https://www.rtaok.org/projects/aa/) that specifies the East Corridor shall be BRT... but because I'm a nerd that loves rail, let's go down this rabbit hole. So.... The main problem with using the Flynn Industrial Spur for a rail-based connection to Tinker is that the spur was mainly designed to service the old GM plant. Thanks to Tinker taking over the plant, the tracks now end on the eastern embankment of the bridge across Air Depot before they enter the Tinker perimeter fence. Between the buildings on either side of the ROW and the fact that Air Depot dips down to go underneath the railroad here, it would be very difficult to transition to a streetcar from here to get up to Gott Gate at SE 59th and Air Depot. I'm honestly unsure how Tinker would want to interface with the transit network, but a wild, uneducated guess would be that they'd prefer those on foot to enter via Tinker Gate on the north side of the base, since the visitor center is there too. This would need to rely on the original idea of a streetcar that branched off from the Bricktown loop heading east along Reno to Air Depot, then south to the gate. The only place that I could see where a streetcar terminal stop could be shoehorned in would be the western corner of Tinker Bicentennial Park, immediately north of I-40 at the SE 29th/Air Depot intersection... but that's not a great spot. There's very little space here to make a rail-based option work here, and if I'm not mistaken, Tinker's not really interested in having transit vehicles come on base - so using their land is out. As much as I'd like a rail connection here, these factors make that option very difficult.

As it stands today, the RTA is planning to run BRT from Santa Fe Station east along Reno to Eastern, then south to SE 29th, then east to Tinker (presumably the visitor center on Air Depot, or nearby)... but the exact route is still subject to change. I doubt at this point that the transit mode will change, however.

If they do add a commuter rail stop at Crossroads, though, I could definitely see it become a SE OKC mini hub for the bus system, if nothing else.


I feel like developing different sections of the parking lot and eventually the demolishing the entire mall and turning the area into apartments with internal courtyards for greenspaces and structured parking. You could eventually have some first floor retail and restaurants you would have room and the area demographics for a grocery store. In 20-25 years, you could have a fairly walkable community in the area. Just do it in phases taking different parts of the massive parking lot that are not being utilized. I think it is an awful idea to keep trying to renovate that mall.

This is basically what I was envisioning, yeah... a phased approach to development around the station, developing the empty land and parking lots, with the long-term goal being to remove the mall building in favor of a dense, walkable office/residential/retail development with the rail station as the centerpiece tying it all together.

unless the industrial / trash dump / and demographics were to change that is not a great spot for a TOD spot ..

?? Um, I don't think you understand (or appreciate) what TOD is. Crossroads is probably the BEST location in OKC for TOD given its location, rail and freeway access, and site.You could fit THOUSANDS of people in the Crossroads Mall area (not even highrises) and it would be a HUGE win for OKC mass transit (TOD).

I too am very surprised Crossroads is left off given it'd be so easy to put a station there and the TOD it could bring. I'm also very surprised with the "need" for a north OKC station when it would only be a mile away from Santa Fe. Commuter Rail is intended to be a commute option with limited stations, not a light rail with multiple destination stops. The ONLY reason there should be additional stations in the city of OKC is due to its size/density where there needs to be one at 63rd (and arguably Britton) and PnR at 122nd and Crossroads. You really start to defeat the purpose of commuter rail with multiple in-city stops, those should be made with transfer to local bus or streetcar/light rail.

^ THIS^

A Transit-Oriented Development spot (TOD) for an area like Crossroads Mall, IMO could kick-start development and transform that area. Despite the Dumpsite near the area, it's far enough away from the mall that it shouldn't be a concern.

A transit development there would be a plus for OKC.

Do we actually think OKC could pull off an actual dense TOD? Or would it just be a just be a huge parking lot moat?

I personally think the goal of any mass transit should be to service or create) dense development, I just don't see OKC pulling that off, especially at Crossroads.

I see no reason why OKC couldn't pull off a dense TOD somewhere. However, I think 63rd is more likely for such an animal. Just much more there to work with and build upon.

Crossroads Mall would be an ideal place for a distribution center(s) or Tinker-related industry.

Crossroads Mall would be an ideal place for a distribution center(s) or Tinker-related industry.

I sure hope that doesn't happen here... talk about wasted opportunity.

It's certainly not suitable for the type of dense transit-oriented development like you might find in Dallas or Hong-Kong. It's in an industrial zone, near a garbage dump and - being realistic, the socio-economic demographics of the area don't support it. It's not an if-you-build-it-they-will-come situation.

I sure hope that doesn't happen here... talk about wasted opportunity.

Not to mention the 577 project is right around the corner and is four times the size.

Crossroads Mall would be an ideal place for a distribution center(s) or Tinker-related industry.

That would make too much sense. Quick & easy access for interstates going multiple directions, large nearby industrial customer base, nearby airport, nearby rai lines. Nah.. loo logical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwgZfZxzuQU

In related news Fort Worth is improving the frequency of rail service to DFW from once an hour to every 30 minutes.

The next goal should be every 20 minutes and then every 15 minutes. It was interesting to see the images on social media of the traffic jams on the airport tollway after the Thanksgiving holiday.

Good morning,

Are you talking about the TEXrail ? I think due to the fact it is single track, 30 minutes is the fastest rotation doable as this time.

Good morning,

Are you talking about the TEXrail ? I think due to the fact it is single track, 30 minutes is the fastest rotation doable as this time.

Good morning!

Yes, and I wasn't aware it was only single track. Double tracking would probably be exorbitantly expensive but maybe 10-20 years down the line.

Whelp now it’s getting even more interesting. All mayoral candidates in Edmond now oppose commuter rail so it may not come to Edmond who knows but all of the mayoral candidates in Norman support it. I’m optimistic Norman voters will support the proposal but I’m not so about Edmond.

https://nondoc.com/2025/01/31/norman-mayoral-debate-holman-mulinix-differ-from-heikkila-on-homeless-shelter/

Whelp now it’s getting even more interesting. All mayoral candidates in Edmond now oppose commuter rail so it may not come to Edmond who knows but all of the mayoral candidates in Norman support it. I’m optimistic Norman voters will support the proposal but I’m not so about Edmond.

https://nondoc.com/2025/01/31/norman-mayoral-debate-holman-mulinix-differ-from-heikkila-on-homeless-shelter/

i don't think that is totally correct .... they don't support an edmond sales tax to pay for it ..

i don't think that is totally correct .... they don't support an edmond sales tax to pay for it ..

It is the same exact thing, since it can only be funded by a sales tax, because of our beloved state law.

So not supporting a tax for it is not supporting it. The ends and means you know,

i don't think that is totally correct .... they don't support an edmond sales tax to pay for it ..
I’ll just repeat what the other person said who responded to you. It’s the same thing. If they don’t support it in the sales tax fails, then the train doesn’t come to Edmond. Do you understand that?

At this point if Edmund does end up voting against the commuter rail, what sense would it really make to build any of it at all? Why not just work with Amtrak and just run more trains per day between Norman and downtown Oklahoma City?

^ or better yet get the state to change the tax law allowing transit on various modes other than just sales. The change could be exclusive to metro areas over one million if they want, but OKC should have the ability to fund transit expansion by more than just the OKC city sales tax.

ODOT is studying the removal of certain at grade RR crossings as part of the Edmond to Norman commuter rail. A bunch of ones come to mind but specifically the Britton Crossing and Wilshire BLVD ones would be great to see grade separated. The Britton one won’t be cheap but the one crossing through Wilshire shouldn’t be much trouble and they could directly connect Classen while they’re at it.

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/safety/news/Oklahoma-DOT-to-evaluate-grade-crossings-ahead-of-commuter-rail-project--73843

I am a bit worried about Edmond‘s potential mayors. Not a single one of them supports this project. If the city of Edmond pulls out, I really don’t see much use for investing all this money and just connecting Norman to OKC. I’m not so sure the RTA would be all that interested to extend the line north if Edmond pulls out. I guess a Norman to OKC line could get the ball rolling. But without Edmond being on board I don’t see it being of much use.

ODOT is studying the removal of certain at grade RR crossings as part of the Edmond to Norman commuter rail. A bunch of ones come to mind but specifically the Britton Crossing and Wilshire BLVD ones would be great to see grade separated. The Britton one won’t be cheap but the one crossing through Wilshire shouldn’t be much trouble and they could directly connect Classen while they’re at it.

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/safety/news/Oklahoma-DOT-to-evaluate-grade-crossings-ahead-of-commuter-rail-project--73843

I am a bit worried about Edmond‘s potential mayors. Not a single one of them supports this project. If the city of Edmond pulls out, I really don’t see much use for investing all this money and just connecting Norman to OKC. I’m not so sure the RTA would be all that interested to extend the line north if Edmond pulls out. I guess a Norman to OKC line could get the ball rolling. But without Edmond being on board I don’t see it being of much use.

even with out edmond they could build a stop with a park and ride all the way north at Kelly and memorial

even with out edmond they could build a stop with a park and ride all the way north at Kelly and memorial
They could, but I don’t think it would see much use. I suppose it could be built in future anticipation that Edmond reevaluate its position one day and rejoin the RTA if in fact they do pull out. I’m not sure about Midwest city but I have a sneaking suspicion that the city of Moore will rejoin the RTA at some point.

With rail likely being dead the RTA should just focus on having a robust CNG bus system. Increase frequency, add more stations, make stops better etc. Hell, maybe Tulsa would partner with OKC to setup some frequency of busses between the two cities. I know greyhound has some service, but greyhound is pretty dreadful.

But without Edmond being on board I don’t see it being of much use.

I'm not exactly pro-passenger rail in OKC, but there may be more of a use of one between OKC and Norman than Edmond. Edmond to OKC has I-35, Broadway Ext, LHP, and I-344 has highways to/from; whereas, Norman only has I-35 (maybe include I-44). That was the major reason I chose NW OKC / Edmond area over Norman when moving back Oklahoma.

I'm not exactly pro-passenger rail in OKC, but there may be more of a use of one between OKC and Norman than Edmond. Edmond to OKC has I-35, Broadway Ext, LHP, and I-344 has highways to/from; whereas, Norman only has I-35 (maybe include I-44). That was the major reason I chose NW OKC / Edmond area over Norman when moving back Oklahoma.
I think I said this before, but I personally know a couple people that have said they would definitely use the park-and-ride station if one was built out at Broadway and coffee Creek, which is where the terminus Edmond is proposed. Obviously there will be a stop in downtown Edmond and I know back before the last couple mayors there was a lot of momentum and enthusiasm to build a downtown multimodal transit center. I don’t know what the standing is on that I need the message the city and ask them. I know they wanted to build a performing arts center, and then that completely died.

I think there would be much higher ridership from Edmond citizens then people suspect. Though I do agree a Norman OKC line would probably have higher ridership. I don’t think that alone would justify that one line. Remember that Moore pulled out.

when you really think about it, Edmond would only be funding their downtown station. MOST of the rail travels through OKC, so we very well could just build PnR at I-235 and I-344 to serve Edmondites if they chose not to participate. While there may not initially be much ridership, over time it would build and once established and the PnR is full could force the hand of Edmond to expand to its downtown and perhaps also N Edmond/S Guthrie.

Having some presence at/near Edmond is essential IMO for Oklahoma City due to the draw of bringing in passengers into the city, so I strongly encourage the RTA to still pursue regardless of what the mayor says. Actually, I also think we should still design for the West route to Yukon/El Reno as well; have it ready and once the N-S routing is complete go ahead and build the W route with a PnR at or near the OKC Outlets; again, capturing Yukon/Mustang/El Reno passengers into the city.

Totally agree that the primary rail traffic will be N-S between Oklahoma City and Norman. This is LONG overdue and much needed, today, in that IMO they should expand the current 'express' bus service by adding more frequencies and upgrading to coach bus - creating a real Commuter Bus until the RTA builds the rail. Could still continue with Commuter Bus to supplement rail and perhaps capture "local" passengers in Moore and S OKC.

OKC has a long way to go to really connect the metro area to build synergy, I hope we don't just wait for rail but start now with better connecting downtown OKC and Norman/OU but not using a low floor 40' local transit bus but coach, articulated, and/or double floor Alexander Dennis (https://nwbus.com/inventory/coach-buses-for-sale/2010-alexander-dennis-trident-e500-77-passenger-ada-double-decker-motorcoach-c12288/) buses (I saw there's some for sale in Tacoma, WA (https://nwbus.com/); could be a quick/cheap way to get started).

Well the Tinker one was already nixed too. Now Edmond. What's the point then? Moore already won't contribute to the Norman line either.

And all the while, it would still only be a secondary traffic on the existing freight line. Which is pretty darned busy. Schedules for commuter will just be a joke and will have to get bumped any time freight wants to do their thing.

The whole thing is a joke and it's slowly dying before it's even a thing. I'm just glad this sort of mess got brought to the surface before it became a financial drain on everyone.

I wonder how the jail fiasco will impact this. It looks inevitable that Oklahoma County will now need to vote on a sales tax initiative for the jail (on top of the previous bond). The OKC GO Bond vote is coming up later this year. Plus the recent arena vote. As some point, OKC's luck of winning tax initiative on the ballot could run out.

when you really think about it, Edmond would only be funding their downtown station. MOST of the rail travels through OKC, so we very well could just build PnR at I-235 and I-344 to serve Edmondites if they chose not to participate. While there may not initially be much ridership, over time it would build and once established and the PnR is full could force the hand of Edmond to expand to its downtown and perhaps also N Edmond/S Guthrie.
I think there was at least two stops proposed in Edmond. One in downtown which would be a broader part of an overall transit hub. Don’t forget it could potentially be an Amtrak stop as well if Amtrak extends the Heartland Flyer to Newton. And they were gonna have a park-and-ride station somewhere around Broadway and Coffee Creek.

A question for the transportation experts here: When one proposes an A to B passenger rail concept, how do proponents prove the demand? Is a wheeled concept first introduced (not unlike BRT) where ridership could be quantified?

I wonder how the jail fiasco will impact this. It looks inevitable that Oklahoma County will now need to vote on a sales tax initiative for the jail (on top of the previous bond). The OKC GO Bond vote is coming up later this year. Plus the recent arena vote. As some point, OKC's luck of winning tax initiative on the ballot could run out.

If I had to guess, I’d say that the RTA vote is more likely to pass than the jail vote, but honestly I don’t think that either are going to pass.

Good quality rail service from Edmond-OKC-Norman would be great so it makes sense it's unlikely to happen.

Apparently this vote will be delayed until mid-2026.

https://nondoc.com/2025/02/19/for-okc-metro-light-rail-plan-edmond-and-norman-would-need-to-be-aboard/

“Imagine this it’s summer 2040”

Yeah, I just stopped reading and close the article after that.

“Imagine this it’s summer 2040”

Yeah, I just stopped reading and close the article after that.

To be fair, most of the time when there’s an “imagine this” scenario illustrated, it’s meant to convey that whatever is being discussed has been around long enough to become normalized i.e. part of the culture, but it does feel defeatist to think of that as a fantasy timeline.

To be fair, most of the time when there’s an “imagine this” scenario illustrated, it’s meant to convey that whatever is being discussed has been around long enough to become normalized i.e. part of the culture, but it does feel defeatist to think of that as a fantasy timeline.
I get it. We’ve just been sold this commuter for well over a decade now. I hope they can make it happen.

I get it. We’ve just been sold this commuter for well over a decade now. I hope they can make it happen.

Oh I know. I was a teenager the first time I remember seeing commuter rail being discussed on here, long before this thread first began, and have been following it closely ever since. Yet here I am at 30 seeing an increasingly hostile sentiment to the most barebones service that still would be years away even in the most optimistic timeline.

Oh I know. I was a teenager the first time I remember seeing commuter rail being discussed on here, long before this thread first began, and have been following it closely ever since. Yet here I am at 30 seeing an increasingly hostile sentiment to the most barebones service that still would be years away even in the most optimistic timeline.

The reason for the delay is not a cause for concern in my opinion..

Oh I know. I was a teenager the first time I remember seeing commuter rail being discussed on here

And now, ideally, my children will be teenagers when it finally gets up and going

The reason for the delay is not a cause for concern in my opinion..

Please explain? The reason for the most recent delay is that more communities have pulled their support? How is that not concerning for any chance of this happening? The longer we seem to take, the less likely it gets as more and more barriers come up and more communities pull out. That's pretty concerning to me if you are someone that thinks we need this.

Please explain? The reason for the most recent delay is that more communities have pulled their support? How is that not concerning for any chance of this happening? The longer we seem to take, the less likely it gets as more and more barriers come up and more communities pull out. That's pretty concerning to me if you are someone that thinks we need this.

As those pushing the transit plan try to win over the hearts and minds of voters, it will likely be a while before residents in Edmond, Norman and OKC are asked to approve a sales tax to fund the light rail system that would connect the three biggest municipalities in the metro area. A vote initially suggested for mid-2025 has been delayed following the RTA’s receipt of a $400,000 federal grant to evaluate 52 railroad crossings between Edmond and Norman.

“This grant will allow us to evaluate and determine which crossings will need upgrades so we can improve traffic patterns across the metro and continue to advance the planning for commuter rail,” Ferbrache said. “Reducing rail congestion will help us create better pedestrian and automobile traffic flow for our residents.”

Former Oklahoma Gov. Brad Henry, who is the board chairman of the RTA, told The Oklahoman’s Steve Lackmeyer he expects the matter to go before voters in the three cities sometime in mid-2026. However, there are also concerns about federal funding in the wake of the Trump administration’s attempts to slash government agencies and grant funding.

“We are concerned about the change in administrations,” Henry said. “It’s no secret the Biden administration was enthusiastic about transit. We don’t think the Trump administration will be negative at all. But they may have different priorities. On the other hand, they may be more willing to mitigate regulatory difficulties we face.”