I'd rather have rail as well but we are still looking at 2-3 years before it would be open. A dedicated BRT between the airport and downtown with no stops in between could be implemented almost immediately, just use one of the existing downtown stops and build one at the airport.

I wouldn’t be opposed to a temporary setup in the meantime. Again, money, but a BRT and LRT line working in unison could be nice as well. Could mitigate the number of stops needed to be made by light rail without having to skip out on more intermediate stops, not that there’s a ton between downtown and the airport.

Imagine how long it will take to create light-rail tracks from downtown to the airport. And how bad the traffic disruptions will be.

Cities can’t just not invest in upgrading/updating infrastructure due to the temporary inconveniences or because it’ll take time to build. The alternative is playing catch up for the indefinite future and/or biting the bullet and building anyways but after the costs have ballooned for economic reasons.

Cities can’t just not invest in upgrading/updating infrastructure due to the temporary inconveniences or because it’ll take time to build. The alternative is playing catch up for the indefinite future and/or biting the bullet and building anyways but after the costs have ballooned for economic reasons.

Oh, I know. I agree wholeheartedly. Just dreading it. I know progress is sometimes short-term pain for long-term gain.

and the cost

But there's literally hundreds of billions available for all the clean energy projects from the infrastructure bill!?

Why in the heck would you not include the fair grounds in that proposal?

Why in the heck would you not include the fair grounds in that proposal?

BRT goes down tenth and goes past May, they can easily have a stop at the fairgrounds. The LRT also does it but at May and Reno, so what are you talking about?

BRT goes down tenth and goes past May, they can easily have a stop at the fairgrounds. The LRT also does it but at May and Reno, so what are you talking about?

It needs to get into the site, not just pass by it. As it stands now it would be similar to dropping people off at the swing back loop at WRWA.

I'm trying to envision where that Reno mini hub will go. It looks like it points to just west of the OnCue on the back of the Wal-Mart. If they wanted something bigger (not sure what it will entail), there is land on Reno behind the Best Buy that is empty. That is further west than where the pin is.
The Reno Mini Hub is not a new concept. That is what Embark calls the two on street stops that has 5 different lines stop there. It is called the Reno Mini Hub on Embark maps. It is located on Greenfield Center Drive. https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+Greenfield+Center+Dr+@+w+Reno+Ave,+Oklahoma+City ,+OK+73128/@35.463031,-97.624471,15z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x87b20fce5d7e8b9f:0xaaa0a9a4d1525 610!8m2!3d35.463031!4d-97.624471!16s%2Fg%2F11b6_h6dw7

The Reno Mini Hub is not a new concept. That is what Embark calls the two on street stops that has 5 different lines stop there. It is called the Reno Mini Hub on Embark maps. It is located on Greenfield Center Drive. https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+Greenfield+Center+Dr+@+w+Reno+Ave,+Oklahoma+City ,+OK+73128/@35.463031,-97.624471,15z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x87b20fce5d7e8b9f:0xaaa0a9a4d1525 610!8m2!3d35.463031!4d-97.624471!16s%2Fg%2F11b6_h6dw7

Ah, got it. I forgot that was there. I have driven by it multiple times but didn't know that's what it was called. Thanks for the clarification.

It needs to get into the site, not just pass by it. As it stands now it would be similar to dropping people off at the swing back loop at WRWA.

Considering that the Union Pacific Oklahoma Sub goes right through the Fairgrounds, and largely parallels the west corridor LPA, I'm really surprised that heavy rail was not considered here. Maybe due to there being no direct connection between the east-west Oklahoma Sub and BNSF's north-south Sooner Sub? A connection could be built to get those east-west trains up to Santa Fe Station but maybe they thought it'd be too expensive or something.

funny in the airport example pictures they use the DENVER airport HEAVY rail pic ..

does any one know why heavy rail was not picked / considered more for the airport line??

I don't understand why A6 wasn't the obvious choice. As far as I know, that diagonal stretch of rail is no longer used. It's the most direct route and already has existing infrastructure for a lot of it. They did point out in the presentation the benefits of the businesses hotels on Meridian so maybe that was the driving factor here?

Considering that the Union Pacific Oklahoma Sub goes right through the Fairgrounds, and largely parallels the west corridor LPA, I'm really surprised that heavy rail was not considered here. Maybe due to there being no direct connection between the east-west Oklahoma Sub and BNSF's north-south Sooner Sub? A connection could be built to get those east-west trains up to Santa Fe Station but maybe they thought it'd be too expensive or something.

I could see them wanting to play it slow for now to get things rolling. My biggest fear with transit of any sort in cities like ours is that the average citizens just isn’t going to be interested in funding “a train/bus to nowhere” which is already a notion that has arisen with how the streetcar has been handled. While getting expensive projects done first can lay groundwork for a great system pretty quickly, there’s the risk of momentum being hampered or killed off before it even gets going just because the public and the city by extension can be opposed to costs, especially if it’s considered to be in competition with personal vehicle infrastructure.

It’s a very different situation with starkly different controversies than what an RTA would likely encounter but having experience with California High-Speed Rail (CAHSR) and the resistance that has come out of that has hardened my mentality on how to approach the implementation of transportation infrastructure that aren’t already widely accepted in that area.

Has there been any polling on this in Edmond, Norman, or OKC?

^ Within the last year.

I don't understand why A6 wasn't the obvious choice. As far as I know, that diagonal stretch of rail is no longer used. It's the most direct route and already has existing infrastructure for a lot of it. They did point out in the presentation the benefits of the businesses hotels on Meridian so maybe that was the driving factor here?

it was shocking to me as well

I don't understand why A6 wasn't the obvious choice. As far as I know, that diagonal stretch of rail is no longer used. It's the most direct route and already has existing infrastructure for a lot of it. They did point out in the presentation the benefits of the businesses hotels on Meridian so maybe that was the driving factor here?

Is A6 in one of the presentation slides above? I can’t get any of the links to open.

Is A6 in one of the presentation slides above? I can’t get any of the links to open.

https://i.imgur.com/l8CgL4Z.jpg

I will say that the diagonal rail alignment shown is DEFINITELY still in use west of Agnew. It’s also a single track over that section, though I’m sure ROW would exist to double track. I’m only saying it wouldn’t be uncomplicated, and probably not quite the discount one might think it would be.

I think chances are that there would be a much higher rider count on A1 and that's why it was recommended

and a MUCH longer trip. Hence why it and all OKC transit routes always fail.

Can we ever utilize express bus (via freeways) for at least some of our transit infrastructure? Not everybody wants to take an hour to get from the airport into the city when one can drive that in less than 20-30 minutes, even in rush hours.

We should use hub and spoke network, where we have transit centers with local buses for local area, with Express or feeder bus/BRT to connect them. The system we have now is a single transit center with local buses feeding it no matter how far away, hence the low ridership.

If the primary purpose of the airport line is to quickly move arriving visitors and resident from the airport to downtown, A6 is the obvious choice with light rail as the mode.

A1 seems to make more sense as a streetcar extension with the line running in the median along Reno. Then more frequent stops at places such as the fairgrounds would be a natural fit. Dublin does something similar with the LUAS lines.

https://i.imgur.com/l8CgL4Z.jpg

Thank you, David!

rail lines should be most efficient given the marginal costs compared to other modes and that we want to expedite visitors (and business) into the city.

We can also run a "local" bus (or BRT) from the airport to downtown via Meridian and Reno. ..

A5 seems like the obvious choice that balances cost with speed. It's the second shortest route at ~0.7 miles longer than A6. Their recommended route is an additional mile (so ~1.7 longer than A6). Sure they'd probably need to build a second track west of Agnew. But it wouldn't involve cutting up city streets during construction. And, in the long term, wouldn't compete with traffic signals almost at all. And it seems like it uses the Santa Fe Station downtown, which saves even more money.

I worry we're dealing with the streetcar situation all over again where the route is viewed as a business opportunity instead of an efficient mode of transport. Running it up Meridian doesn't make a lot of sense for anyone who isn't a hotel owner on Meridian. It's both more expensive and slower (for both the train and auto traffic it would need to avoid).

A5 seems like the obvious choice that balances cost with speed. It's the second shortest route at ~0.7 miles longer than A6. Their recommended route is an additional mile (so ~1.7 longer than A6). Sure they'd probably need to build a second track west of Agnew. But it wouldn't involve cutting up city streets during construction. And, in the long term, wouldn't compete with traffic signals almost at all. And it seems like it uses the Santa Fe Station downtown, which saves even more money.

I worry we're dealing with the streetcar situation all over again where the route is viewed as a business opportunity instead of an efficient mode of transport. Running it up Meridian doesn't make a lot of sense for anyone who isn't a hotel owner on Meridian. It's both more expensive and slower (for both the train and auto traffic it would need to avoid).

bingo

A5 seems like the obvious choice that balances cost with speed. It's the second shortest route at ~0.7 miles longer than A6. Their recommended route is an additional mile (so ~1.7 longer than A6). Sure they'd probably need to build a second track west of Agnew. But it wouldn't involve cutting up city streets during construction. And, in the long term, wouldn't compete with traffic signals almost at all. And it seems like it uses the Santa Fe Station downtown, which saves even more money.

I worry we're dealing with the streetcar situation all over again where the route is viewed as a business opportunity instead of an efficient mode of transport. Running it up Meridian doesn't make a lot of sense for anyone who isn't a hotel owner on Meridian. It's both more expensive and slower (for both the train and auto traffic it would need to avoid).

There is a median most of that stretch of Reno so in theory they wouldn't need to tear up the roads the entire way but I agree with you if it's implemented like the streetcar it will be a disaster. That route is about 20-25 minutes by car so if you factor in stops it wouldn't surprise me if it took around ~40 minutes from end to end. For reference, the Denver rail line from the airport to union station downtown takes 37 minutes and goes 23 miles with 6 stops in-between. This would take probably just as long to go about 10 miles.

I worry we're dealing with the streetcar situation all over again where the route is viewed as a business opportunity instead of an efficient mode of transport. Running it up Meridian doesn't make a lot of sense for anyone who isn't a hotel owner on Meridian. It's both more expensive and slower (for both the train and auto traffic it would need to avoid).
This! Have they learned nothing from the streetcar fiasco? Good old boy dealings at work here or just ignorance?

I don't think having rental car facility, meridian hotels, fairgrounds, and farmers market as the stops on your way into downtown is anything negative to look at.

I don't think having rental car facility, meridian hotels, fairgrounds, and farmers market as the stops on your way into downtown is anything negative to look at.

I have a hard time buying this as accurate. Below is my uninformed opinion and I welcome discussion on my accuracy/inaccuracy:

Those who are renting vehicles for their visit to OKC shouldn't have to wait on a light rail to go get their vehicle. The rental companies already supply a shuttle from the terminals which are quite fast and frequent. It would be an unnecessary stop, it would be duplicative, and it's barely a mile from the terminal. Further, no one returning a rental would want to time a trip back to catch a flight from ~less than a mile away. If I was riding to downtown okc and the rail I just boarded stopped ~than a mile away I'd be annoyed and the rail likely hasn't reached a decent speed before slowing again.

The Meridian hotels are the only stop along this route that makes some sense, imo. I would still rather our track run more directly to downtown than to service those (generally) cut-rate hotels and sketchy motels. My personal and uninformed belief is that this route, and stop, would no outweigh the speedy benefits of a point-to-point direct access from airport to Santa Fe Station. I'd love for someone with more actual knowledge to inform me of how many people frequent that hotel grouping from air travel. I'm sure it's decent. It's only 3.4 miles away and I understand some do offer shuttle service already. I also believe the hotels onI-40 and meridian host some air travel but also have lots of vehicle travelers, too. If we had to make a Meridian stop is there going to be advocates saying we should stop at the river (SW 15th) and Meridian and then again at I40 and Meridian? That seems awfully bad.

While I understand that the fairgrounds (allegedly) makes gobs money for our City from tourism, I do not believe there to be significant overlap between those visiting the fairgrounds and those using air travel to get here. If the Fairgrounds biggest draw is the Equine industry it is my belief that travel is largely local and with by roadway. If, outside of horse shows, the fairgrounds have some other massive events which loads of people fly in for, we can surely agree those events are infrequent at best. Further, anyone who is flying in to see horses or other expositions at the fairgrounds are staying in OKC overnight, they still need to get to the central core. No one stays at/near the fairgrounds. There are no hotels. Unless they're in an RV and therefore wouldn't benefit from access to the airport.

I love the optimistic idea that the Farmers Market area grows into a highly relevant corridor someday. As of now, no. No one is flying into OKC to go to our Farmer's market.

The linear distance b/w Denver Intl and downtown is more than 20 miles. They have six stops. Those stops are generally to serve people who live in between the airport versus those travelling to downtown. No stops for rental cars or farmers markets. The linear distance b/w Will Rogers Intl and downtown OKC is ~6 miles. So, if the purpose of this rail is not to drop residents near their homes in the direct path between airport and downtown then make the rail FAST and direct, thereby making it more frequent.

(please excuse poor grammar or syntax I typed up more than I intend and need to get back to work)

^^^^^ Absolutely agree with all of the above. Make it as non-stop and fast as possible.

I don't think having rental car facility, meridian hotels, fairgrounds, and farmers market as the stops on your way into downtown is anything negative to look at.

it absolutely is ... the preferred selection is 30 min with NO stops end to end ... (that is also mid day with less traffic then peak hours)

that is the go 10 miles ... that is already double the time of an uber lift or personal vehicle .. and again that is without stops ..

the Denver airport line has 6 stops in 23 miles and takes 37 min driving the same route takes 30ish .. very competitive ..

the OKC route is going to be well over 40 min ... for 9 miles ... that is not competitive .. and will make it very very hard to be successful ..

I have a hard time buying this as accurate. Below is my uninformed opinion and I welcome discussion on my accuracy/inaccuracy:

Those who are renting vehicles for their visit to OKC shouldn't have to wait on a light rail to go get their vehicle. The rental companies already supply a shuttle from the terminals which are quite fast and frequent. It would be an unnecessary stop, it would be duplicative, and it's barely a mile from the terminal. Further, no one returning a rental would want to time a trip back to catch a flight from ~less than a mile away. If I was riding to downtown okc and the rail I just boarded stopped ~than a mile away I'd be annoyed and the rail likely hasn't reached a decent speed before slowing again.

The Meridian hotels are the only stop along this route that makes some sense, imo. I would still rather our track run more directly to downtown than to service those (generally) cut-rate hotels and sketchy motels. My personal and uninformed belief is that this route, and stop, would no outweigh the speedy benefits of a point-to-point direct access from airport to Santa Fe Station. I'd love for someone with more actual knowledge to inform me of how many people frequent that hotel grouping from air travel. I'm sure it's decent. It's only 3.4 miles away and I understand some do offer shuttle service already. I also believe the hotels onI-40 and meridian host some air travel but also have lots of vehicle travelers, too. If we had to make a Meridian stop is there going to be advocates saying we should stop at the river (SW 15th) and Meridian and then again at I40 and Meridian? That seems awfully bad.

While I understand that the fairgrounds (allegedly) makes gobs money for our City from tourism, I do not believe there to be significant overlap between those visiting the fairgrounds and those using air travel to get here. If the Fairgrounds biggest draw is the Equine industry it is my belief that travel is largely local and with by roadway. If, outside of horse shows, the fairgrounds have some other massive events which loads of people fly in for, we can surely agree those events are infrequent at best. Further, anyone who is flying in to see horses or other expositions at the fairgrounds are staying in OKC overnight, they still need to get to the central core. No one stays at/near the fairgrounds. There are no hotels. Unless they're in an RV and therefore wouldn't benefit from access to the airport.

I love the optimistic idea that the Farmers Market area grows into a highly relevant corridor someday. As of now, no. No one is flying into OKC to go to our Farmer's market.

The linear distance b/w Denver Intl and downtown is more than 20 miles. They have six stops. Those stops are generally to serve people who live in between the airport versus those travelling to downtown. No stops for rental cars or farmers markets. The linear distance b/w Will Rogers Intl and downtown OKC is ~6 miles. So, if the purpose of this rail is not to drop residents near their homes in the direct path between airport and downtown then make the rail FAST and direct, thereby making it more frequent.

(please excuse poor grammar or syntax I typed up more than I intend and need to get back to work)

i replied in my other post before i read yours ... i agree 100% ..

If fact it would make much much more since to use the A5 line and make the airport stop a combine pick up point with the rental car facility ... (because those shuttles are continual and efficient. )

I have a hard time buying this as accurate. Below is my uninformed opinion and I welcome discussion on my accuracy/inaccuracy:

Those who are renting vehicles for their visit to OKC shouldn't have to wait on a light rail to go get their vehicle. The rental companies already supply a shuttle from the terminals which are quite fast and frequent. It would be an unnecessary stop, it would be duplicative, and it's barely a mile from the terminal. Further, no one returning a rental would want to time a trip back to catch a flight from ~less than a mile away. If I was riding to downtown okc and the rail I just boarded stopped ~than a mile away I'd be annoyed and the rail likely hasn't reached a decent speed before slowing again.

The Meridian hotels are the only stop along this route that makes some sense, imo. I would still rather our track run more directly to downtown than to service those (generally) cut-rate hotels and sketchy motels. My personal and uninformed belief is that this route, and stop, would no outweigh the speedy benefits of a point-to-point direct access from airport to Santa Fe Station. I'd love for someone with more actual knowledge to inform me of how many people frequent that hotel grouping from air travel. I'm sure it's decent. It's only 3.4 miles away and I understand some do offer shuttle service already. I also believe the hotels onI-40 and meridian host some air travel but also have lots of vehicle travelers, too. If we had to make a Meridian stop is there going to be advocates saying we should stop at the river (SW 15th) and Meridian and then again at I40 and Meridian? That seems awfully bad.

While I understand that the fairgrounds (allegedly) makes gobs money for our City from tourism, I do not believe there to be significant overlap between those visiting the fairgrounds and those using air travel to get here. If the Fairgrounds biggest draw is the Equine industry it is my belief that travel is largely local and with by roadway. If, outside of horse shows, the fairgrounds have some other massive events which loads of people fly in for, we can surely agree those events are infrequent at best. Further, anyone who is flying in to see horses or other expositions at the fairgrounds are staying in OKC overnight, they still need to get to the central core. No one stays at/near the fairgrounds. There are no hotels. Unless they're in an RV and therefore wouldn't benefit from access to the airport.

I love the optimistic idea that the Farmers Market area grows into a highly relevant corridor someday. As of now, no. No one is flying into OKC to go to our Farmer's market.

The linear distance b/w Denver Intl and downtown is more than 20 miles. They have six stops. Those stops are generally to serve people who live in between the airport versus those travelling to downtown. No stops for rental cars or farmers markets. The linear distance b/w Will Rogers Intl and downtown OKC is ~6 miles. So, if the purpose of this rail is not to drop residents near their homes in the direct path between airport and downtown then make the rail FAST and direct, thereby making it more frequent.

(please excuse poor grammar or syntax I typed up more than I intend and need to get back to work)

If a light rail runs every 15 min then it's not a crazy idea to add a stop there but it could go away. not dying on that hill.
the meridian hotels stop would be just south of the river. most likely 15th and meridian.
the fairgrounds is more for the opportunity for a park and ride situation or a good drop off/pick up point for that part of the world. I would use it.
the farmers market would be a stop for that growing population in west downtown. most likely reno/western area.
then downtown.

so max 4, most likely 3 stops. everyone keeps comparing it to denver but almost every one of their stops to/from the airport is a park and ride stop. clearly they need those to help with revenue. the blue line from ORD and orange line from Midway to downtown has a ton of stops. the orange line from dfw to downtown has a ton of stops. the green line from SLC to downtown has a ton of stops for a short distance.

clearly I am in minority but there is a reason they want to do this route.

...the blue line from ORD and orange line from Midway to downtown has a ton of stops. the orange line from dfw to downtown has a ton of stops. the green line from SLC to downtown has a ton of stops for a short distance.

clearly I am in minority but there is a reason they want to do this route.

Those lines in Chicago are also general parts of the L/subway system and aren't specifically for a point-to-point commute with the airport at one end - they move people around all over the city, not just from one end of a dedicated-type of rail line.

If a light rail runs every 15 min then it's not a crazy idea to add a stop there but it could go away. not dying on that hill.
the meridian hotels stop would be just south of the river. most likely 15th and meridian.
the fairgrounds is more for the opportunity for a park and ride situation or a good drop off/pick up point for that part of the world. I would use it.
the farmers market would be a stop for that growing population in west downtown. most likely reno/western area.
then downtown.

so max 4, most likely 3 stops. everyone keeps comparing it to denver but almost every one of their stops to/from the airport is a park and ride stop. clearly they need those to help with revenue. the blue line from ORD and orange line from Midway to downtown has a ton of stops. the orange line from dfw to downtown has a ton of stops. the green line from SLC to downtown has a ton of stops for a short distance.

clearly I am in minority but there is a reason they want to do this route.

I guess the question becomes is the light rail for mainly to serve tourists coming into OKC or is it mainly to serve residents? I am under the impression its the largely the former. If If it's the latter, I guess you could argue the legitimacy of concocting a way to "park and ride"

Do we have the density along any proposed route to make a part and ride to save 3 miles of driving?? Absolutely not. SLC has 7x the density per sq kilometer that we do, so maybe that's the reason for their design

Also, the distance b/w SLC downtown and the airport is ~3 miles, so it is still a short ride, even with a few stops.

Most importantly, I understand the SLC light rail from airport to downtown runs in a straight line, unlike what is proposed above.

As to DFW, I don't know that we're comparing apples to apples. Some might say the same is true of Denver.

Surely some engineers can tell us the best design. I just hope the choice is dictated by objective research and not serving a few folks with ulterior motives.

If a light rail runs every 15 min then it's not a crazy idea to add a stop there but it could go away. not dying on that hill.
the meridian hotels stop would be just south of the river. most likely 15th and meridian.
the fairgrounds is more for the opportunity for a park and ride situation or a good drop off/pick up point for that part of the world. I would use it.
the farmers market would be a stop for that growing population in west downtown. most likely reno/western area.
then downtown.

so max 4, most likely 3 stops. everyone keeps comparing it to denver but almost every one of their stops to/from the airport is a park and ride stop. clearly they need those to help with revenue. the blue line from ORD and orange line from Midway to downtown has a ton of stops. the orange line from dfw to downtown has a ton of stops. the green line from SLC to downtown has a ton of stops for a short distance.

clearly I am in minority but there is a reason they want to do this route.

Don't most of those hotels provide free shuttle service to and from the airport?

my statement would be at most one stop, and that is only if it goes by the fairgrounds... if that A1 option is selected, that should be the only in-between stop. because then I think you make it (in the overall RTA view) a destination point other than the airport on that route. for example, i live in Norman, and so if i take the rail to downtown and then could get to the fairgrounds, i would consider that for all of my trips to events at the fair grounds (probably 4-5 a year)... but that isn't a reason to build that route, just saying that if the line is going by there, it would be dumb to not put a stop there. But the most direct line should be looked at, and that isn't one that goes anywhere near the fair grounds.

A study probably needs to be done to see what percentage of incoming WRWA incoming passengers travel first to downtown OKC. I'm going to just go ahead and guess it's a surprisingly small percentage, even among non-residents.

https://i.imgur.com/adw7R6C.jpg

I'm generally in favor of this alignment; it makes a lot of sense to me as long as it has dedicated RoW the entire way. For expediency, there should only be a maximum of 2 stops along this line - one at the Fairgrounds (could even be a park-n-ride type stop) and one within the Meridian Ave Hospitality Corridor (probably around SW 15th and Meridian, or thereabouts) to enable carless access to hotels for both airport travelers and fairgrounds visitors.

I'm generally in favor of this alignment; it makes a lot of sense to me as long as it has dedicated RoW the entire way. For expediency, there should only be a maximum of 2 stops along this line - one at the Fairgrounds (could even be a park-n-ride type stop) and one within the Meridian Ave Hospitality Corridor (probably around SW 15th and Meridian, or thereabouts) to enable carless access to hotels for both airport travelers and fairgrounds visitors.

Do that many fairgrounds visitors fly in? As has been said, it's mostly horse shows and those folks don't fly in, which I suspect is true, but have no way of knowing for certain.

Hard no on a stop at the hotels on Meridian. - if public transit is needed for those, the rental shuttle can cover that.

The only stop worth putting between the terminus points is the fairgrounds. And actually, having a transit hub there could make a lot of sense. Looking at the Embark map, there are at least 5 routes you could make more efficient by having them go to the fairgrounds hub and then transfer to downtown via the Airport rail.

Do that many fairgrounds visitors fly in? As has been said, it's mostly horse shows and those folks don't fly in, which I suspect is true, but have no way of knowing for certain.

For me it's connecting downtown to the fairgrounds that creates tremendous value, not connecting the fairgrounds to WRWA.

This isn’t in direct response to the topic (regional transit and/or rail to airport), but instead a response to a comment upthread that I couldn’t let pass. There is no “alleged” to the revenue the fairgrounds brings the City. Believe it or don’t believe it. Whatever. But revenue generated due to fairgrounds events is bigger than the economic impact from OKC’s convention business AND sports business. Combined.

This isn’t in direct response to the topic (regional transit and/or rail to airport), but instead a response to a comment upthread that I couldn’t let pass. There is no “alleged” to the revenue the fairgrounds brings the City. Believe it or don’t believe it. Whatever. But revenue generated due to fairgrounds events is bigger than the economic impact from OKC’s convention business AND sports business. Combined.

Worked at Mahogany North in 2010 (when it was the only Mahogany in OKC) and that November was absolutely horrendous monetarily, which most staff said was pretty common.

Moved to The Ranch in 2011 and worked there for 7 years and November routinely rivaled December financially.

The difference between the 2 restaurants? The Ranch built a great brand with the horse show and so every night there are 2 or 3 tables coming in spending ungodly amounts of money.

The fairgrounds is one of those things that has contributed in a meaningful way to our diversification economically speaking. I am of the opinion we should build out a smaller entertainment district over there and if there were rail.connecting it to downtown, I really think it could become.one of the more popular routes.

^^^^^ Absolutely agree with all of the above. Make it as non-stop and fast as possible.

Is there an airport rail system anywhere that stops at hotels?

Why would it need to stop at the rental car facility? That's why they're taking the rail.

Stops should only be for connecting mass transit.

Speed and traveller convenience is the motive for an airport line.

Do that many fairgrounds visitors fly in? As has been said, it's mostly horse shows and those folks don't fly in, which I suspect is true, but have no way of knowing for certain.

I don't necessarily mean fairgrounds visitors flying in. What I mean is this would enable people to drive in, stay at the hotels in the Hospitality Corridor, then take the LRT to the Fairgrounds (and beyond). If I'm not mistaken, those hotels are used frequently by out-of-towners visiting the fairgrounds. This plays double-duty by also giving visitors who flew in easy access to the hotels within the Hospitality Corridor - and of course to the city beyond that as well. Additionally, if the stop is near SW 15th and Meridian, this also allows the transit system to easily tie in with the river trails, too.

We have to be extremely careful to avoid adding too many intermediate stops to ensure that travel times stay as quick as possible - but one hospitality corridor stop and one fairgrounds stop both make a lot of sense to help drive ridership for that portion of the line without significantly affecting travel times to the airport. But I think that's pretty much the maximum number of stops that make sense.

^this. Not only does the stop at the hotels on meridian connect as an easy ride to the airport, it also connects them to downtown and fairgrounds, if needed.

Personally, I don't want to promote usage of Meridian hotels and would rather people stay at downtown hotels which is another reason I'd not stop at Meridian. My guess is most Meridian hotel guests rent cars.

For me it's connecting downtown to the fairgrounds that creates tremendous value, not connecting the fairgrounds to WRWA.

this is where i am at as well. it's about getting the people who already live here to the places they go that would be more convenient. and that is after they are able to get to downtown on one mode, then getting to either the fairgrounds or the airport

Personally, I don't want to promote usage of Meridian hotels and would rather people stay at downtown hotels which is another reason I'd not stop at Meridian. My guess is most Meridian hotel guests rent cars.

Maybe not everyone can afford a hotel room downtown

Maybe not everyone can afford a hotel room downtown

By and large those hotels on Meredian have airport shuttles

Personally, I don't want to promote usage of Meridian hotels and would rather people stay at downtown hotels which is another reason I'd not stop at Meridian. My guess is most Meridian hotel guests rent cars.

This sounds like a personal problem to me. You would not want to use them, however many people that would utilize public transit are more than likely to utilize them. Just because a hotel is not the Ritz Carlton doesn't mean that it cannot contribute positively to tourism in Oklahoma. Personally, I refuse to stay in budget hotels ever at THIS point in my life, I would much rather go to an autograph or curio collection hotel than a typical Hilton or Marriott. I am going to Uber from the airport 10/10 times, that's me because it doesn't matter if it is $10 or $100 to me. Years ago, I would be on the train every time because the $2-5 to get to downtown versus what the cab would be was not sustainable for me financially at that time. Every traveler is not the same, and we need to have different options that accommodate different travelers at different price points. I think that one of the more important questions for this line is how it will help locals connect into the RTA going forward. Quick transit to and from the airport is important, consistent use by locals will make it sustainable. We do not have a very busy airport; we cannot expect this route to be maintained by the airport alone.

I have a hard time buying this as accurate. Below is my uninformed opinion and I welcome discussion on my accuracy/inaccuracy:

Those who are renting vehicles for their visit to OKC shouldn't have to wait on a light rail to go get their vehicle. The rental companies already supply a shuttle from the terminals which are quite fast and frequent. It would be an unnecessary stop, it would be duplicative, and it's barely a mile from the terminal. Further, no one returning a rental would want to time a trip back to catch a flight from ~less than a mile away. If I was riding to downtown okc and the rail I just boarded stopped ~than a mile away I'd be annoyed and the rail likely hasn't reached a decent speed before slowing again.

The Meridian hotels are the only stop along this route that makes some sense, imo. I would still rather our track run more directly to downtown than to service those (generally) cut-rate hotels and sketchy motels. My personal and uninformed belief is that this route, and stop, would no outweigh the speedy benefits of a point-to-point direct access from airport to Santa Fe Station. I'd love for someone with more actual knowledge to inform me of how many people frequent that hotel grouping from air travel. I'm sure it's decent. It's only 3.4 miles away and I understand some do offer shuttle service already. I also believe the hotels onI-40 and meridian host some air travel but also have lots of vehicle travelers, too. If we had to make a Meridian stop is there going to be advocates saying we should stop at the river (SW 15th) and Meridian and then again at I40 and Meridian? That seems awfully bad.

While I understand that the fairgrounds (allegedly) makes gobs money for our City from tourism, I do not believe there to be significant overlap between those visiting the fairgrounds and those using air travel to get here. If the Fairgrounds biggest draw is the Equine industry it is my belief that travel is largely local and with by roadway. If, outside of horse shows, the fairgrounds have some other massive events which loads of people fly in for, we can surely agree those events are infrequent at best. Further, anyone who is flying in to see horses or other expositions at the fairgrounds are staying in OKC overnight, they still need to get to the central core. No one stays at/near the fairgrounds. There are no hotels. Unless they're in an RV and therefore wouldn't benefit from access to the airport.

I love the optimistic idea that the Farmers Market area grows into a highly relevant corridor someday. As of now, no. No one is flying into OKC to go to our Farmer's market.

The linear distance b/w Denver Intl and downtown is more than 20 miles. They have six stops. Those stops are generally to serve people who live in between the airport versus those travelling to downtown. No stops for rental cars or farmers markets. The linear distance b/w Will Rogers Intl and downtown OKC is ~6 miles. So, if the purpose of this rail is not to drop residents near their homes in the direct path between airport and downtown then make the rail FAST and direct, thereby making it more frequent.

(please excuse poor grammar or syntax I typed up more than I intend and need to get back to work)

Perfection. THIS should be sent to the city council and transit authorities. I also can't understand why they want to make rail transit like a bus route.

This sounds like a personal problem to me. You would not want to use them, however many people that would utilize public transit are more than likely to utilize them. Just because a hotel is not the Ritz Carlton doesn't mean that it cannot contribute positively to tourism in Oklahoma. Personally, I refuse to stay in budget hotels ever at THIS point in my life, I would much rather go to an autograph or curio collection hotel than a typical Hilton or Marriott. I am going to Uber from the airport 10/10 times, that's me because it doesn't matter if it is $10 or $100 to me. Years ago, I would be on the train every time because the $2-5 to get to downtown versus what the cab would be was not sustainable for me financially at that time. Every traveler is not the same, and we need to have different options that accommodate different travelers at different price points. I think that one of the more important questions for this line is how it will help locals connect into the RTA going forward. Quick transit to and from the airport is important, consistent use by locals will make it sustainable. We do not have a very busy airport; we cannot expect this route to be maintained by the airport alone.

It's not a personal problem nor disdain for the economically disadvantaged. It's looking at the reality of those hotels. They are in an area with horrendous walkability and no path forward to becoming substantially more walkable.

The frequency of people without cars staying in these hotels would need to be proven put before losing the time making a stop here, especially when it could be serviced by a variety of alternative methods cheaply.

my statement would be at most one stop, and that is only if it goes by the fairgrounds... if that A1 option is selected, that should be the only in-between stop. because then I think you make it (in the overall RTA view) a destination point other than the airport on that route. for example, i live in Norman, and so if i take the rail to downtown and then could get to the fairgrounds, i would consider that for all of my trips to events at the fair grounds (probably 4-5 a year)... but that isn't a reason to build that route, just saying that if the line is going by there, it would be dumb to not put a stop there. But the most direct line should be looked at, and that isn't one that goes anywhere near the fair grounds.

I think this is the money shot. Anyone who has ever parked at the fair knows how big of a deal it would be to be able to not have to do that.

It's also an area that is guaranteed to get huge amounts of funding in the next 2 decades - I'm guessing more funding than anywhere outside of downtown/the river. To that end, bringing a rail stop there helps create a synergy between Fairgrounds and Downtown that is missing.

It's also an area where the city owns a lot of land and can control the development.

OKC needs transit hubs if we ever want to have a dynamic public transit system. You can't be this spread out and then try to run every line to/through downtown. Our goal should be for people to be able to get to downtown with one transfer and anywhere in the city with two transfers or less.

At a minimum having hubs at Fairgrounds + old Crossroads mall, allows all hubs to be connected via rail. It probably makes sense to put a hub somewhere at one of Integris, Penn Square, or Belle Isle and you could connect that to rail by running the street car up Classen.

Each Hub then services the further out portions of the city. From there every hub connects to downtown and each other.

Before planting rail to the airport, we certainly need to know more about the greater overall strategy.

OKC needs transit hubs if we ever want to have a dynamic public transit system. You can't be this spread out and then try to run every line to/through downtown. Our goal should be for people to be able to get to downtown with one transfer and anywhere in the city with two transfers or less.

At a minimum having hubs at Fairgrounds + old Crossroads mall, allows all hubs to be connected via rail. It probably makes sense to put a hub somewhere at one of Integris, Penn Square, or Belle Isle and you could connect that to rail by running the street car up Classen.

Each Hub then services the further out portions of the city. From there every hub connects to downtown and each other.

Before planting rail to the airport, we certainly need to know more about the greater overall strategy.

For the most part I agree I think if the vote passes each brt/light rail line should have its own hub with a route connecting all hubs not already connected directly(airport to nw expressway or south OKC maps 4 brt line to tinker) each hub should be should be the end of the line for the local routes in the area with another transfer point approximately half way through the line..eliminate the current downtown bus station add a few downtown loop routes

OKC needs transit hubs if we ever want to have a dynamic public transit system. You can't be this spread out and then try to run every line to/through downtown. Our goal should be for people to be able to get to downtown with one transfer and anywhere in the city with two transfers or less.

At a minimum having hubs at Fairgrounds + old Crossroads mall, allows all hubs to be connected via rail. It probably makes sense to put a hub somewhere at one of Integris, Penn Square, or Belle Isle and you could connect that to rail by running the street car up Classen.

Each Hub then services the further out portions of the city. From there every hub connects to downtown and each other.

Before planting rail to the airport, we certainly need to know more about the greater overall strategy.

I've advised this many times, including to the Transit Administration. Hopefully they'll listen because cities WAY more dense than OKC have numerous transit centers throughout their service area; totally agree with you on how OKC can vision everything going through downtown without transfers/connections/transit center(s) along the way.

This isn’t in direct response to the topic (regional transit and/or rail to airport), but instead a response to a comment upthread that I couldn’t let pass. There is no “alleged” to the revenue the fairgrounds brings the City. Believe it or don’t believe it. Whatever. But revenue generated due to fairgrounds events is bigger than the economic impact from OKC’s convention business AND sports business. Combined.

Urbanized you are admittedly 10x more informed than I am. And I take you at your word when you say the State Fairgrounds brings big revenue to the City. My reason for the use of the term "allegedly" is due to the historic and seemingly unreasonable lack of transparency from the State Fair Trust. This was discussed in great detail in 2017-2018 on the State Fairgrounds thread. I actually recall you and Pete having discussions about this very issue and, to my knowledge, the State Fair Trust continues to operate without public access to it's budget. It's a 501(c) which is owned by the City and yet as taxpaying members of the City we don't get to know what's happening.

If this has changed in the past 6 years and the State Fair trust has opened their books on budget and profits I'd love to be educated. If not, I'm going to keep using "allegedly" when I reflect on the success or lack thereof as to what they add to the City. If the data supporting the financial benefit the State Fair brings to the City comes from somewhere outside of the Chamber or the State Fair then I'd love to see it.

Again, my knowledge only comes from reading this website so I could be totally off-base here.

Thanks in advance for the knowledge you're about to drop on me ;)

Urbanized you are admittedly 10x more informed than I am. And I take you at your word when you say the State Fairgrounds brings big revenue to the City. My reason for the use of the term "allegedly" is due to the historic and seemingly unreasonable lack of transparency from the State Fair Trust. This was discussed in great detail in 2017-2018 on the State Fairgrounds thread. I actually recall you and Pete having discussions about this very issue and, to my knowledge, the State Fair Trust continues to operate without public access to it's budget. It's a 501(c) which is owned by the City and yet as taxpaying members of the City we don't get to know what's happening.

If this has changed in the past 6 years and the State Fair trust has opened their books on budget and profits I'd love to be educated. If not, I'm going to keep using "allegedly" when I reflect on the success or lack thereof as to what they add to the City. If the data supporting the financial benefit the State Fair brings to the City comes from somewhere outside of the Chamber or the State Fair then I'd love to see it.

Again, my knowledge only comes from reading this website so I could be totally off-base here.

Thanks in advance for the knowledge you're about to drop on me ;)

The Trust could be operating in the red and the Fairgrounds can still bring dollars into the city.

Not many people on this forum pushed back against the arena as much as I did, but even acknowledged that operationally, having the Thunder most likely generates more dollars than it costs on an annual basis (whether that justifies a capital cost, is another question, whether for fairgrounds, arena, park, or anytbing else).

The amount of hotel stays and sales tax as well as incoming economic dollars from outside sources is tremendous.

Substantially more than the Thunder, the fairgrounds brings dollars from all over the world to be spent in Oklahoma City.