Actually, they don't, at least they didn't use to run Metra trains after about midnight on all lines back when I lived there. Was a pain for some late concerts since I worked downtown and lived in the west suburbs and used the BNSF line to commute - had to get back home by train, then drive out to the concert so we could make it back after the last train had left Union Station.

It is the same way now. I take the BNSF line a couple of time per year and after the evening rush trains only run once per hour, and that is on a line that has 63,000 riders per day.

These are the stations they proposed. Most are pretty self explanatory, but do we know where the "North OKC" and "South Norman" stations would be?

Since they have one planned for NW 63rd and the other downtown i would assume North OKC would be in the middle so around NW 30th street. But thats where the flynn yard is so it might be difficult. A station there and a new ped bridge over i-235 would be great.

Since they have one planned for NW 63rd and the other downtown i would assume North OKC would be in the middle so around NW 30th street. But thats where the flynn yard is so it might be difficult. A station there and a new ped bridge over i-235 would be great.

I was about to say a stop at 23rd would be sorely needed due to proximity of the state capitol. There are bus stations on the east and west side of the highway that could take people to and from the capitol.

If they don't stop at Brittany it is a huge missed opportunity. I'm not a fan of the park and rides either and some systems are getting rid of them, and replacing the large parking lots with housing.

For example:
https://oaklandside.org/2023/04/14/bart-gearing-up-to-build-housing-at-oakland-rockridge-station/

It looks like they aren't simply "replacing the large parking lots with housing".

The one you linked to specifically, they cannot replace most of the parking lot with housing since the parking lot is under the freeway. Also, they aren't looking at getting rid of all the spots, just going vertical. From your example:
> Currently, the parcels in question are used for parking, containing 140 of the 886 total spaces at the station. According to BART, about a third of the parking lot typically sits empty these days, both because of the decrease in ridership and because a majority of Rockridge riders arrive at the station by methods other than driving.
Other BART locations there have build parking garages along with residential:
Transit-Oriented Development (TOD) - MacArthur | bart.gov (https://www.bart.gov/about/business/tod/macarthur)

Actually, they don't, at least they didn't use to run Metra trains after about midnight on all lines back when I lived there. Was a pain for some late concerts since I worked downtown and lived in the west suburbs and used the BNSF line to commute - had to get back home by train, then drive out to the concert so we could make it back after the last train had left Union Station.

true, there is a 4 hour gap (https://schedules.metrarail.com/pdf/alternative/BNSF.pdf), (I was thinking of the L blue and red lines 24/7) but to me even with that gap Metra is basically all day/night and both directions (not just the rush hour directions); pretty dang good for a US rail service.

Since they have one planned for NW 63rd and the other downtown i would assume North OKC would be in the middle so around NW 30th street. But thats where the flynn yard is so it might be difficult. A station there and a new ped bridge over i-235 would be great.

the North OKC is 63rd and is perfect for a stop. the S Norman is the OU campus area. I personally hope they'd run them Purcell to Guthrie, at least eventually.

my idea:
Red Line South: Purcell*, OU/S Norman, Norman downtown, Crossroads, Downtown
Red Line North: Guthrie*, S Guthrie/Airport*, Edmond downtown, S Edmond PnR, 63rd St OKC, Downtown

+ Expand streetcar from downtown to the capitol campus and Oklahoma Health Center, and to Capital Hill*.

This would be 3-4 stops (expand to 4-5) for each route in/out of downtown; just what you'd want for a Commuter Rail. Given OKC's lack of density there would be about 5-mile catchment between stops, again, perfect for CR.

Is this schedule part of the proposal, or just speculation?

Purely speculation plans are pretty much finalized on the north south line. The trains last stop will not be downtown OKC it will be Edmond and Norman it will run frequently and will take about 35 minutes to complete the trip. Trains are less to maintain per mile than buses and are far more reliable when it comes to scheduling. the south end will probably be up and running first(speculation on my part) my guess with in 5 years of a vote and the north line with in 3-5 years after that

I know many people who commute from Edmond to Norman or vise versa and that drive sounds draining to do every day. I'm sure many of them would jump at the option to take a train instead.

I was about to say a stop at 23rd would be sorely needed due to proximity of the state capitol. There are bus stations on the east and west side of the highway that could take people to and from the capitol.

And that bus line gets you all the way to the outlet mall too! Could really change the area between i-235 and Lincoln

:lol2::lol2::lol2: A mile is being waaaaaaaay generous, I'd expect a few blocks at most for most OKCitians.

True. Which just reinforces that the cities will have a lot of work to do to make this work. People will need to be able to access the stations without using a car, because that's kind of the point. I'm sure some would do the park and ride thing, but I'm not sure our commute is that big of a hassle to warrant that for most people.

the North OKC is 63rd and is perfect for a stop..

NW 63rd is already listed as a specific stop. Presumably the "North OKC" stop would be between 63rd and downtown...

This is going to be a commuter train - taking people to work in the morning and home after work. It isn't going to be a late-night or weekend party train.

It obviously has to work as a valid commute option to be justified, but it does seem like there is at least some thought of it serving other uses. Of the proposed stops, "OU Special Events" is one of them. I'm assuming the thinking is this would serve sporting events and the occasional concert. If it could serve OU special events, I would think it could serve downtown events. Though I definitely don't see it being a nightly / every weekend type things. Mostly events at the arena.

A lot of cities do change schedules and even routes for special events. Of course, this adds an extra layer of logistics and planning especially in a shared track situation.

I was about to say a stop at 23rd would be sorely needed due to proximity of the state capitol. There are bus stations on the east and west side of the highway that could take people to and from the capitol.

This probably makes the most sense. It has the most density of residents and workers around this spot than anywhere north of it. Also has decent infrastructure in place, or at least more than a lot of the other stops. I don't have any numbers, but it does seem like the 23rd street buses are well used relative to other lines in the city.

This probably makes the most sense. It has the most density of residents and workers around this spot than anywhere north of it. Also has decent infrastructure in place, or at least more than a lot of the other stops. I don't have any numbers, but it does seem like the 23rd street buses are well used relative to other lines in the city.

There is also the Northeast BRT line in the works that will almost certainly include NE 23rd. And that's in addition to the Classen BRT that has a big stop at NW 23rd (although that is already one mile from the train station).

Apparently the "North OKC" stop will be at NW 13th and will tie in with a new development. Kinda bummed its not at NW 23rd:/

Apparently the "North OKC" stop will be at NW 13th and will tie in with a new development. Kinda bummed its not at NW 23rd:/

13th is... weird. That's only a mile north of Santa Fe Station, that seems way too close. But disappointed though I might be, I do kinda get why they may not do a stop for 23rd - finding an appropriate location would be challenging. About the only place where a station and platform could fit would be either around NE 28th and Santa Fe in BNSF Nowers Yard, or underneath I-235 at approximately 21st. A stop at Nowers Yard would not have space for any parking, and a stop under I-235 would be challenging to access due to the configuration of the on/off ramps for 23rd.

The green space at the NE corner of 23rd and Broadway would be perfect…. I don’t like a stop at Nw13th. That’s too close and is practically served by Streetcar already.

It is encouraging to hear that the development at 13th will be transit oriented

Apparently the "North OKC" stop will be at NW 13th and will tie in with a new development. Kinda bummed its not at NW 23rd:/


It is encouraging to hear that the development at 13th will be transit oriented

This is a very interesting revelation that I would like to learn more about.

yep, nice to hear that the 13th street development will have direct commuter rail access to downtown, only 10 blocks away. ....

The key to this working is it needs to be very car friendly. There needs to be plenty of parking at every station for people driving to the station, parking and riding the rest of the way in. It absolutely needs to go to the airport. If people can fly in, and take the train to downtown OKC it has a chance. There are plenty of people that would be happy to drive to Edmond or Norman, park and then ride the rest of the way to downtown or the airport.

Anyone heard any recent updates on the commuter rail system?
I am mostly curious about the Edmond to Norman commuter rail transport.
Been a decent amount of conversation about this since 2017.

Anyone heard any recent updates on the commuter rail system?
I am mostly curious about the Edmond to Norman commuter rail transport.
Been a decent amount of conversation about this since 2017.

there is not a lot of belief that a transit tax would pass at this time .. and that is required to pay for commuter rail

there is not a lot of belief that a transit tax would pass at this time .. and that is required to pay for commuter rail

That’s not entirely true the steps they are taking right now are required to qualify for federal funding..I don’t think they’re worried about a vote at this time..they have narrowed the LPAs to 3 possible routes on the west line and 3 on the airport line..the final plan is expected at the end of June before the end of the economic calendar year

A vote will happen I just don’t think they’re worried about it not passing the region know it’s transportation is lacking at best and something need to be done

Perhaps off-topic, so feel free to remove. But this is an interesting video about a student trying to commute to and from class using the Heartland Flyer. He makes an argument for commuter rail at the end.

https://youtu.be/IQUy4Fdyjjg?si=HTGQpfwv2UauuYdi

As much as I do not want it to be the case I feel like commuter rail will never pass after the failure that is the OKC streetcar. The route is garbage, the service times are garbage, and I say this as someone that lived downtown and attempted to utilize the system for three years before saying **** it. I hope the city and like minded people prove me wrong, but I do not have high hopes for commuter rail passing in the next decade.

All l can say is l hope they learn from mistakes made in system built in Denver. The 3 huge errors made with their system are 1) putting in too many stops trying to link with bus service making it a slower commute than driving, 2) putting parking too far from the stops and 3) building stops independently rather than seeking out development partners who would build, and pay for rail stops as part of mixed-use developments.

All l can say is l hope they learn from mistakes made in system built in Denver. The 3 huge errors made with their system are 1) putting in too many stops trying to link with bus service making it a slower commute than driving, 2) putting parking too far from the stops and 3) building stops independently rather than seeking out development partners who would build, and pay for rail stops as part of mixed-use developments.

Part 3 can be very important. Public/private agreements to develop critical interfacing infrastructure works.

As much as I do not want it to be the case I feel like commuter rail will never pass after the failure that is the OKC streetcar. The route is garbage, the service times are garbage, and I say this as someone that lived downtown and attempted to utilize the system for three years before saying **** it. I hope the city and like minded people prove me wrong, but I do not have high hopes for commuter rail passing in the next decade.

who said the streetcar was a failure?? I'ts been a huge development success and is the first (or second) piece of a transit system for OKC; once the political will returns to expand it and build the other transit nodes (commuter bus, commuter rail, light rail, more express bus), streetcar itself will be a huge transit success. To me, the ONLY failure of the streetcar (besides the lack of N-S and E-W dual track spines) is the fact that it is not free. This IMO was self inflicted by EMBARK as they placated to the bus mafia who feel that a free streetcar downtown would somehow harm the bus system and therefore poor people. Huh? Seems like it'd be the other way around from a logic standpoint.

- ----

I proposed a downtown Oklahoma City free transit zone for both streetcar (obviously) and bus, like we used to have in Seattle: all streetcar stations, and outbound bus stops are free in downtown but pay when you get off, inbound bus is charged when you get on (unless you're downtown). Seattle did this to 1) encourage support of downtown attractions and retail, and 2) to help alleviate traffic. This would be HUGE for OKC 1) to help build transit ridership culture!!! 2) to therefore justify transit expansion 3) to help downtown attractions and bring back significant retail. The downtown OKC ride free zone should be in place until the streetcar is expanded or downtown retail truly takes back off.

who said the streetcar was a failure?? I'ts been a huge development success and is the first (or second) piece of a transit system for OKC; once the political will returns to expand it and build the other transit nodes (commuter bus, commuter rail, light rail, more express bus), streetcar itself will be a huge transit success. To me, the ONLY failure of the streetcar (besides the lack of N-S and E-W dual track spines) is the fact that it is not free. This IMO was self inflicted by EMBARK as they placated to the bus mafia who feel that a free streetcar downtown would somehow harm the bus system and therefore poor people. Huh? Seems like it'd be the other way around from a logic standpoint.

- ----

I proposed a downtown Oklahoma City free transit zone for both streetcar (obviously) and bus, like we used to have in Seattle: all streetcar stations, and outbound bus stops are free in downtown but pay when you get off, inbound bus is charged when you get on (unless you're downtown). Seattle did this to 1) encourage support of downtown attractions and retail, and 2) to help alleviate traffic. This would be HUGE for OKC 1) to help build transit ridership culture!!! 2) to therefore justify transit expansion 3) to help downtown attractions and bring back significant retail. The downtown OKC ride free zone should be in place until the streetcar is expanded or downtown retail truly takes back off.

I live in Oklahoma City and I think the streetcar is a failure.

I think it is a nice and expensive toy for the Chamber of Commerce types, and I am okay with that. I don't think it will ever be cost effective to operate. But it is built and it is here.

I think we should do all we can to maximize the utility and access of it.

The only thing worse than an overpriced toy is a useless toy.

Public transit is a public service. It is not a profit center and no reasonable person thinks any public transit system is directly profitable or breaks even. I can't provide an exact number, but the vast majority are subsidized for the economic benefits that result from having a comprehensive functional transit service.

If I recall correctly, the data shows every $1 in transit investment results in an average of $5 in economic activity. Of course that is dependent on having a system and not a few disparate pieces of a system.

who said the streetcar was a failure?? I'ts been a huge development success and is the first (or second) piece of a transit system for OKC; once the political will returns to expand it and build the other transit nodes (commuter bus, commuter rail, light rail, more express bus), streetcar itself will be a huge transit success. To me, the ONLY failure of the streetcar (besides the lack of N-S and E-W dual track spines) is the fact that it is not free. This IMO was self inflicted by EMBARK as they placated to the bus mafia who feel that a free streetcar downtown would somehow harm the bus system and therefore poor people. Huh? Seems like it'd be the other way around from a logic standpoint.

- ----

I proposed a downtown Oklahoma City free transit zone for both streetcar (obviously) and bus, like we used to have in Seattle: all streetcar stations, and outbound bus stops are free in downtown but pay when you get off, inbound bus is charged when you get on (unless you're downtown). Seattle did this to 1) encourage support of downtown attractions and retail, and 2) to help alleviate traffic. This would be HUGE for OKC 1) to help build transit ridership culture!!! 2) to therefore justify transit expansion 3) to help downtown attractions and bring back significant retail. The downtown OKC ride free zone should be in place until the streetcar is expanded or downtown retail truly takes back off.

have you ever lived or worked downtown here and tried to use it consistently? What are you basing the comment that it’s been “a huge development success” on?

it’s slow, limited because it’s not bidirectional, and it’s generally easier to Uber, take a scooter, walk or drive than it is to use the street car. Bad advice, poor design, and cheaping out on the route have hurt it. Probably should’ve been part of its own project or built to be more expandable than include as a small part of maps 3. The street cars themselves are nice but it needs to run in both directions and hit more of downtown if people in mass are ever going to use it as more than a novelty.

The Streetcar loop was/is a terrible idea. It was designed to spur development along the route (which does have a purpose), not to serve as a daily form of transportation. I'd imagine it would be much more utilized if it was a straight shot down Robinson from Capitol Hill to Midtown, then perhaps spurring to Classen to the Plaza. Maybe a second line that went from Myriad Gardens > Bricktown > Convergence. Oh well...

RAPID, on the other hand, seems to be off to a strong start. Fast and can actually get you places...

forget the price. heck even when it was free, i rarely used it, because it doesn't actually do a good job at moving me anywhere. i can usually walk faster than the time it takes to move me from one area to another. the streetcar is a complete failure, because they didn't actually create it as a people mover

RAPID, on the other hand, seems to be off to a strong start. Fast and can actually get you places...

This. I live along the route and always make a point to glance at the buses as they pass by. More often than not there are multiple people riding each bus. And all for about one-fifth of what the streetcar cost. I know they serve different purposes (e.g., it is unlikely that tourists/convention center attendees will frequently ride RAPID), but there seems to be a big utility gap between it and the streetcar...

This. I live along the route and always make a point to glance at the buses as they pass by. More often than not there are multiple people riding each bus. And all for about one-fifth of what the streetcar cost. I know they serve different purposes (e.g., it is unlikely that tourists/convention center attendees will frequently ride RAPID), but there seems to be a big utility gap between it and the streetcar...

Partly because the streetcar's track layout was planned with economic development versus ridership as a focus...

have you ever lived or worked downtown here and tried to use it consistently? What are you basing the comment that it’s been “a huge development success” on?

it’s slow, limited because it’s not bidirectional, and it’s generally easier to Uber, take a scooter, walk or drive than it is to use the street car. Bad advice, poor design, and cheaping out on the route have hurt it. Probably should’ve been part of its own project or built to be more expandable than include as a small part of maps 3. The street cars themselves are nice but it needs to run in both directions and hit more of downtown if people in mass are ever going to use it as more than a novelty.

the initial implementation of streetcar was not intended to be a mass transit solution but instead was to be a first step in a transit network providing final mile of a larger commuter system AND the streetcar was intended to spur economic development along its route. Are you arguing that there hasn't been significant economic development along along the route since the streetcar was announced?

Should I refresh your memory of what has been developed along the route? Even since last year, let alone since the entire run of streetcar returning to OKC.

Again, it was not intended to be a transit solution - initially. It can not compare to BRT which runs through the biggest retail corridor in the state and connects to some of the largest residential tracts connecting them to the largest downtown of the state. I agree, streetcar should be expanded to be successful and/or commuter rail and true hub/spoke bus transit needs to be implemented then streetcar can truly be the final mile downtown connector solution. But to sit here and say streetcar is a failure because nobody rides it is short-sighted to the original and future intent, and may be biased to encourage a certain narrative - based on my analysis.

Streetcar is part of OKC's overall image, if nothing else it adds to the OKC experience regardless if residents use it or not (which OKC is not a transit friendly city to begin with). Do you think Tulsa or Wichita would turn down having a similar loop style streetcar in their downtowns?

the initial implementation of streetcar was not intended to be a mass transit solution but instead was to be a first step in a transit network providing final mile of a larger commuter system AND the streetcar was intended to spur economic development along its route. Are you arguing that there hasn't been significant economic development along along the route since the streetcar was announced?

Should I refresh your memory of what has been developed along the route? Even since last year, let alone since the entire run of streetcar returning to OKC.

Again, it was not intended to be a transit solution - initially. It can not compare to BRT which runs through the biggest retail corridor in the state and connects to some of the largest residential tracts connecting them to the largest downtown of the state. I agree, streetcar should be expanded to be successful and/or commuter rail and true hub/spoke bus transit needs to be implemented then streetcar can truly be the final mile downtown connector solution. But to sit here and say streetcar is a failure because nobody rides it is short-sighted to the original and future intent, and may be biased to encourage a certain narrative - based on my analysis.

Streetcar is part of OKC's overall image, if nothing else it adds to the OKC experience regardless if residents use it or not (which OKC is not a transit friendly city to begin with). Do you think Tulsa or Wichita would turn down having a similar loop style streetcar in their downtowns?

I am huge in favor of mass transit options. Having spent a huge amount of time in cities all over the world where there are high function systems, I am a big proponent. Unfortunately, it seems that our OKC system fails on many levels.

IF it was intended as a pretty toy to increase our image, it mostly works for that on pictures and short video snippets. It does look cool if not in context. It doesn't look cool when it is rarely seen loading and unloading people, or circulating with 2 or three people in it at any one time.

IF it was to be an economic development generator, I would challenge someone to show where it specifically induced development that wouldn't organically grow otherwise. I would have to be shown where the developers financial plans included the increased valuation based on being on or near the line and how their tenants were willing to pay more for it.

It is NOT a time saver or viable commuting option. I have tried, but cannot rely on its timeliness and have had to add additional time to any appointment just to allow for it. It is not a rational way to travel around downtown. It seems that ridership is at best stagnant and few people outside of this forum even talk about it. It is simple a non factor.

If it was to be used to induce further streetcar development, it would do so if people actually could use it the way intended and find real value in it. People want value shown and failure doesn't show value. They will not vote to throw good money after bad ideas or poor execution.

Face it, OKC tripped on their own shoelaces on this. It is probably (IMHO) the worst executed of any of the MAPS projects to date.

the initial implementation of streetcar was not intended to be a mass transit solution but instead was to be a first step in a transit network providing final mile of a larger commuter system AND the streetcar was intended to spur economic development along its route. Are you arguing that there hasn't been significant economic development along along the route since the streetcar was announced?

Should I refresh your memory of what has been developed along the route? Even since last year, let alone since the entire run of streetcar returning to OKC.

Again, it was not intended to be a transit solution - initially. It can not compare to BRT which runs through the biggest retail corridor in the state and connects to some of the largest residential tracts connecting them to the largest downtown of the state. I agree, streetcar should be expanded to be successful and/or commuter rail and true hub/spoke bus transit needs to be implemented then streetcar can truly be the final mile downtown connector solution. But to sit here and say streetcar is a failure because nobody rides it is short-sighted to the original and future intent, and may be biased to encourage a certain narrative - based on my analysis.

Streetcar is part of OKC's overall image, if nothing else it adds to the OKC experience regardless if residents use it or not (which OKC is not a transit friendly city to begin with). Do you think Tulsa or Wichita would turn down having a similar loop style streetcar in their downtowns?

well said and all correct ..

Rover, I think your arguments are fair and you're likely correct that Streetcar was not purposefully indicated for most OKC development. Therefore, I'll rephrase my wording to say the Streetcar is a catalyst that likely ensured projects were built. Heartland building, Phillips Murrah, Citizen, numerous restaurant and shoppes all cite Streetcar as a feature/amenity of their location. I'd argue that none of them would have been built without the streetcar, notice areas NOT on the streetcar route for comparison (dev along streetcar is much more built-up/urban). ...

Again, I can't provide exact examples that cite streetcar for their existence but one can conclude the streetcar has been a development success by comparing projects built along the route vs areas that aren't on the streetcar. Boardwalk at Bricktown cites the streetcar (as an amenity); however, is streetcar a necessity for Boardwalk to be built? Likely not. ...

Portland's streetcar started out similar to OKC's yet was expanded and integrated with MAX Light Rail once it was built. MAX doesn't go into the neighborhoods that Streetcar does, I think this is the benefit of Streetcar that so far haven't been proven in OKC - it allows final mile, tight fit into urban neighborhoods that light rail and larger metro trains can't. You can certainly conclude that the Pearl District would NOT be the relative success it is without the streetcar that's for sure, it was an industrial wasteland prior. Ditto that for waterfront.

the initial implementation of streetcar was not intended to be a mass transit solution but instead was to be a first step in a transit network providing final mile of a larger commuter system AND the streetcar was intended to spur economic development along its route. Are you arguing that there hasn't been significant economic development along along the route since the streetcar was announced?

Should I refresh your memory of what has been developed along the route? Even since last year, let alone since the entire run of streetcar returning to OKC.

Again, it was not intended to be a transit solution - initially. It can not compare to BRT which runs through the biggest retail corridor in the state and connects to some of the largest residential tracts connecting them to the largest downtown of the state. I agree, streetcar should be expanded to be successful and/or commuter rail and true hub/spoke bus transit needs to be implemented then streetcar can truly be the final mile downtown connector solution. But to sit here and say streetcar is a failure because nobody rides it is short-sighted to the original and future intent, and may be biased to encourage a certain narrative - based on my analysis.

Streetcar is part of OKC's overall image, if nothing else it adds to the OKC experience regardless if residents use it or not (which OKC is not a transit friendly city to begin with). Do you think Tulsa or Wichita would turn down having a similar loop style streetcar in their downtowns?

What on earth are you talking about? Yes it was supposed to be a mass transit solution FOR DOWNTOWN. It was supposed to be the downtown circulator portion of a larger mass transit network. It was not built to spur development...that was promoted as a side benefit. I'm arguing that it sucks at serving the purpose it was built for...and the ridership numbers show that...few people use it for anything other than a novelty because of the way it was set up.

You don't need to refresh my memory on anything. There is nothing that was built on the route that wouldn't have been built anyway. Developers might have promoted that as a perk of why they chose a location for a development over another...but I would bet my life savings that no one looked at the street car line and said..."well if they didn't put this here...we would be out on building this in OKC or redeveloping this building...but the street car!!! That changed everything for us!"

Yes the street car can be compared to the BRT...which is serving the purpose it was built for and doing it well...the street car was built to be a downtown circulator and it isn't good at it. How is saying that no one rides it and that its often faster to walk to your destination not an indication of failure? It was supposed to help people move around downtown AFTER THEY GET DOWNTOWN...commuter rail isn't going to fundamentally change how many people head downtown and at some point need to walk somewhere...there are plenty of people parking in lots all over downtown or ubering now that aren't using the streetcar to get to their destination. Hell it doesn't even go through Deep Deuce which is the most concentrated residential area downtown.

Sure it looks great on promotional material that we have a street car system but it's useless outside of that.

Yes... Tulsa would turn down a Streetcar system that was built like this one...they would look down the turnpike and say..."why would we spend $200 Million to build a poorly designed streetcar system that we have proof that no one will use?"

Your analysis sounds like that of someone who lives 2000 miles away, hasn't spent much time in downtown OKC since the streetcar was completed and hasn't spent time trying to use it on a day to day basis.

well said and all correct ..

Just completely disagree with everything except that it looks nice for OKC's image.

Rover, I think your arguments are fair and you're likely correct that Streetcar was not purposefully indicated for most OKC development. Therefore, I'll rephrase my wording to say the Streetcar is a catalyst that likely ensured projects were built. Heartland building, Phillips Murrah, Citizen, numerous restaurant and shoppes all cite Streetcar as a feature/amenity of their location. I'd argue that none of them would have been built without the streetcar, notice areas NOT on the streetcar route for comparison (dev along streetcar is much more built-up/urban). ...

Again, I can't provide exact examples that cite streetcar for their existence but one can conclude the streetcar has been a development success by comparing projects built along the route vs areas that aren't on the streetcar. Boardwalk at Bricktown cites the streetcar (as an amenity); however, is streetcar a necessity for Boardwalk to be built? Likely not. ...

Portland's streetcar started out similar to OKC's yet was expanded and integrated with MAX Light Rail once it was built. MAX doesn't go into the neighborhoods that Streetcar does, I think this is the benefit of Streetcar that so far haven't been proven in OKC - it allows final mile, tight fit into urban neighborhoods that light rail and larger metro trains can't. You can certainly conclude that the Pearl District would NOT be the relative success it is without the streetcar that's for sure, it was an industrial wasteland prior. Ditto that for waterfront.

These were all built on primary commercial corridors in OKC that are heavily trafficked and were already heavily growing before the streetcar was completed or even approved. There is absolutely no way the streetcar was the deciding factor or even ensured that these developments were built.

I thought the streetcar was a great idea when it was proposed as part of MAPS III but as soon as the layout and single track design was chosen...I was extremely skeptical that it would ever be used as intended and so far it has played out that way and will continue to unless something is done to greatly improve the efficiency of the system.

I am huge in favor of mass transit options. Having spent a huge amount of time in cities all over the world where there are high function systems, I am a big proponent. Unfortunately, it seems that our OKC system fails on many levels.

IF it was intended as a pretty toy to increase our image, it mostly works for that on pictures and short video snippets. It does look cool if not in context. It doesn't look cool when it is rarely seen loading and unloading people, or circulating with 2 or three people in it at any one time.

IF it was to be an economic development generator, I would challenge someone to show where it specifically induced development that wouldn't organically grow otherwise. I would have to be shown where the developers financial plans included the increased valuation based on being on or near the line and how their tenants were willing to pay more for it.

It is NOT a time saver or viable commuting option. I have tried, but cannot rely on its timeliness and have had to add additional time to any appointment just to allow for it. It is not a rational way to travel around downtown. It seems that ridership is at best stagnant and few people outside of this forum even talk about it. It is simple a non factor.

If it was to be used to induce further streetcar development, it would do so if people actually could use it the way intended and find real value in it. People want value shown and failure doesn't show value. They will not vote to throw good money after bad ideas or poor execution.

Face it, OKC tripped on their own shoelaces on this. It is probably (IMHO) the worst executed of any of the MAPS projects to date.

Well said, all of it.

A more interesting study would be the ratio of downtown residential/workforce/recreational density to ridership compared to other cities.

At the pace we're growing/developing, downtown is probably 3 decades away from being a 24/7 vibrant urban community. There are obviously a lot of cool things downtown, and a crowd can be brought in by any one of those things, and when you stack 5 or 6 things on top of each other, downtown looks like an incredible place to be. But for at least 70% of the time, downtown is still pretty vacant. Hard to have ridership without people especially when you're serving a sprawled urban landscape.

Public transit in OKC needs at least 100k and probably closer to 200k additional residents within the Grand Loop to have any sort of quality ridership. Downtown needs at least another 30k people and probably closer to 50k.

15 minute lead times for any public transit system is a joke. Even Rapid gets 12 minute leads during weekdays.

The lead times for the street car ought to be 8-10 minutes during peak times. That creates a more reliable system. However, even if that brought back 150% of potential regular riders, it would still leave largely vacant vehicles, because we'd need 300+ hourly riders for it to seem successful. There are nowhere near 300+ people/hour that would have a legitimate need to take any sort of public transportation downtown on a regular basis.

What I think the rta should do
Northeast, northwest, southeast, southwest and downtown OKC should all have transit centers each of those transit centers should connect to each other via BRT or light rail..

Each transit center should have its own bus system with routes that serve that side of town

Each route should have multiple connections to the BRT/light rail

Rover, I think your arguments are fair and you're likely correct that Streetcar was not purposefully indicated for most OKC development. Therefore, I'll rephrase my wording to say the Streetcar is a catalyst that likely ensured projects were built. Heartland building, Phillips Murrah, Citizen, numerous restaurant and shoppes all cite Streetcar as a feature/amenity of their location. I'd argue that none of them would have been built without the streetcar, notice areas NOT on the streetcar route for comparison (dev along streetcar is much more built-up/urban). ...

Again, I can't provide exact examples that cite streetcar for their existence but one can conclude the streetcar has been a development success by comparing projects built along the route vs areas that aren't on the streetcar. Boardwalk at Bricktown cites the streetcar (as an amenity); however, is streetcar a necessity for Boardwalk to be built? Likely not. ...

Portland's streetcar started out similar to OKC's yet was expanded and integrated with MAX Light Rail once it was built. MAX doesn't go into the neighborhoods that Streetcar does, I think this is the benefit of Streetcar that so far haven't been proven in OKC - it allows final mile, tight fit into urban neighborhoods that light rail and larger metro trains can't. You can certainly conclude that the Pearl District would NOT be the relative success it is without the streetcar that's for sure, it was an industrial wasteland prior. Ditto that for waterfront.
Love to see a map of development scatter before and after the streetcar, as well as a study showing ridership frequency from tenants, clients, employees, etc of those developments. If built with the streetcar as an amenity, is it actually being used that way, or for cheaper park and ride option for events? There should be real analytics that show effectivity and not promoted curated and anecdotal evidence. This isn’t rocket science.

very good points Rover, I too would like to see it.

would be a very nice project for OU or OCU Civil Engineering departments. ..

What I think the rta should do
Northeast, northwest, southeast, southwest and downtown OKC should all have transit centers each of those transit centers should connect to each other via BRT or light rail..

Each transit center should have its own bus system with routes that serve that side of town

Each route should have multiple connections to the BRT/light rail

There was a RTA town hall meeting yesterday with the final recommendations for the west and airport corridors. They are recommending a light rail line from the Sante Fe station downtown to the airport and a BRT for the west corridor. Next steps are final board approval next month and then work on putting a sales tax or similar proposal out for dedicated funding where they will be able to apply for Federal match dollars for the project. They said they would expect a vote would take place sometime in 2025.

Here is the town hall meeting: https://kimley-horn.zoom.us/rec/share/ipamUzM72o_LTHdMJkub4nXQJmuXXsIwpLv7IjjxgNiuM8Cf33 Q9mMicRViW0xEq.8Q7z3bTjbEEVsEyZ

All the presentations from that meeting and prior meetings: https://engagekh.com/rtamoves/resources/

There was a RTA town hall meeting yesterday with the final recommendations for the west and airport corridors. They are recommending a light rail line from the Sante Fe station downtown to the airport and a BRT for the west corridor. Next steps are final board approval next month and then work on putting a sales tax or similar proposal out for dedicated funding where they will be able to apply for Federal match dollars for the project. They said they would expect a vote would take place sometime in 2025.

Here is the town hall meeting: https://kimley-horn.zoom.us/rec/share/ipamUzM72o_LTHdMJkub4nXQJmuXXsIwpLv7IjjxgNiuM8Cf33 Q9mMicRViW0xEq.8Q7z3bTjbEEVsEyZ

All the presentations from that meeting and prior meetings: https://engagekh.com/rtamoves/resources/

funny in the airport example pictures they use the DENVER airport HEAVY rail pic ..

does any one know why heavy rail was not picked / considered more for the airport line??

funny in the airport example pictures they use the DENVER airport HEAVY rail pic ..

does any one know why heavy rail was not picked / considered more for the airport line??

It looks like that would have been A5 or A6 alternatives but the rejection of those options isn't addressed in the presentation.

funny in the airport example pictures they use the DENVER airport HEAVY rail pic ..

does any one know why heavy rail was not picked / considered more for the airport line??

I couldn’t tell you why in this case but outside of light rail being easy to incorporate into existing infrastructure, almost every net positive for light rail over heavy rail boils down to costs. If I were a betting man, I’m sure those two reasons are the main if not the only reasons heavy rail won’t be used for the airport.

I will say, I’m just at peace (for now) they are actually looking to do an LRT line instead of settling for a BRT to connect the airport to downtown.

I will say, I’m just at peace (for now) they are actually looking to do an LRT line instead of settling for a BRT to connect the airport to downtown.

I'd rather have rail as well but we are still looking at 2-3 years before it would be open. A dedicated BRT between the airport and downtown with no stops in between could be implemented almost immediately, just use one of the existing downtown stops and build one at the airport.

There was a RTA town hall meeting yesterday with the final recommendations for the west and airport corridors. They are recommending a light rail line from the Sante Fe station downtown to the airport and a BRT for the west corridor. Next steps are final board approval next month and then work on putting a sales tax or similar proposal out for dedicated funding where they will be able to apply for Federal match dollars for the project. They said they would expect a vote would take place sometime in 2025.

Here is the town hall meeting: https://kimley-horn.zoom.us/rec/share/ipamUzM72o_LTHdMJkub4nXQJmuXXsIwpLv7IjjxgNiuM8Cf33 Q9mMicRViW0xEq.8Q7z3bTjbEEVsEyZ

All the presentations from that meeting and prior meetings: https://engagekh.com/rtamoves/resources/

The two initial recommendations from the 5/14 meeting:

https://i.imgur.com/YqqgwZR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/adw7R6C.jpg

It's not explicitly called out on any of the airport corridor slides that I can find but I wonder if the plan is to share the Reno Mini Hub between both lines.

I'm trying to envision where that Reno mini hub will go. It looks like it points to just west of the OnCue on the back of the Wal-Mart. If they wanted something bigger (not sure what it will entail), there is land on Reno behind the Best Buy that is empty. That is further west than where the pin is.

Imagine how long it will take to create light-rail tracks from downtown to the airport. And how bad the traffic disruptions will be.

Imagine how long it will take to create light-rail tracks from downtown to the airport. And how bad the traffic disruptions will be.

and the cost