When the commuter rail line passes through Moore without stopping they will only have themselves to blame.

I recently used the New Mexico Rail Runner this weekend and while I found the frequency to be lacking, it would be a good model to aspire for an OKC commuter line from Norman to Edmond.
I suspect once they see the stations and the activity it spurs they’ll rethink their stance.

Do they somehow imagine they are more likely to get that as a non-member of the RTA?

I have no idea when people decided the best response if you don’t get exactly what you want is to cutoff all discussion, or membership in this case, instead of working towards some sort of common ground but it reminds me of this.

WARNING: some may consider this graphic. I will leave it up to those in charge to decide if this video is okay.


https://youtu.be/747_rz-qE4w

To be fair, I am not versed in what has gone on behind the scenes that pushed Midwest City and Moore to withdrawal. Whatever has happened, it still seems short sighted to reject connection into a rail system that will connect you to other nearby cities.

Probably best for the RTA that Moore pulled out. There is not a location in Moore where a rail stop would even make sense.

Probably best for the RTA that Moore pulled out. There is not a location in Moore where a rail stop would even make sense.

the RTA is about much more then rail ... the bus system (system wide) would be the first thing improved . .

removing tax revenue to build / operate the system is not a good thing

the RTA is about much more then rail ... the bus system (system wide) would be the first thing improved . .

removing tax revenue to build / operate the system is not a good thing

This is why I really hope Yukon joins the RTA, if we got bus service that made our trips into DT and back I would be happy. Yes, train service could make it better, but just having any public transit between Yukon and the metro would be a win!

Probably best for the RTA that Moore pulled out. There is not a location in Moore where a rail stop would even make sense.

Other than the park/aquatic center they built at 4th and Broadway, next to the train tracks, on land that the city already owns?

Probably best for the RTA that Moore pulled out. There is not a location in Moore where a rail stop would even make sense.

A park and ride at the park Moore just built would be perfect, south of 4th. It literally butts up to the railroad. Or a little bit south of there, on the north side of 19th street. Or, if Moore wanted to attempt some transit development they could put it on Main street right next to the Moore municipal services (clerk, PD etc.). I am confused by this comment as Moore is perfectly situated on the BNSF mainline.

A park and ride at the park Moore just built would be perfect, south of 4th. It literally butts up to the railroad. Or a little bit south of there, on the north side of 19th street. Or, if Moore wanted to attempt some transit development they could put it on Main street right next to the Moore municipal services (clerk, PD etc.). I am confused by this comment as Moore is perfectly situated on the BNSF mainline.

Moore's Comprehensive Plan states:

2. INCREASE MOBILITY FOR ALL USERS
• Strategy 2.1: Increase mobility options via public transit.
• Consider providing CART and Metro Transit.
• Support Locally Preferred Alternatives with a Moore commuter rail transit station. - emphasis added -

https://www.cityofmoore.com/sites/default/files/uploads/plans-studies/envisionmoorefinal-plan-small.pdf (page 101)

oh well, I suppose with moore out that will better align the Crossroads Commuter Rail park n ride.

A park and ride at the park Moore just built would be perfect, south of 4th. It literally butts up to the railroad. Or a little bit south of there, on the north side of 19th street. Or, if Moore wanted to attempt some transit development they could put it on Main street right next to the Moore municipal services (clerk, PD etc.). I am confused by this comment as Moore is perfectly situated on the BNSF mainline.

Park and Rides only make sense on extremely low value land. I doubt Moore would want to fill the heart of their town with a giant non revenue generating parking lot. At the same time, there is no part of Moore that could accommodate a commuter train stop without it being a park and ride. So, IMO a stop just doesn't make sense for Moore or the RTA.

Park and Rides only make sense on extremely low value land. I doubt Moore would want to fill the heart of their town with a giant non revenue generating parking lot. At the same time, there is no part of Moore that could accommodate a commuter train stop without it being a park and ride. So, IMO a stop just doesn't make sense for Moore or the RTA.

We don't need an absolutely massive parking lot for this, and that lot can be shared with the aquatic center and park there at 4th & Broadway. If you look at Google Maps, there is plenty of space at the north end of that lot that is unprogrammed space and perfecly sized to handle commuter volumes. That's enough space to build a parking lot similar to ones found at suburban Metra stations in the Chicagoland area - examples being Prospect Heights, Wheeling, or Crystal Lake. This spot at 4th & Broadway is completely feasible for Moore's station and parking lot.

You'd definitely want larger parking capability in Norman and Edmond, though - likely necessitating structured parking due to space constraints in both locations.

Park and Rides only make sense on extremely low value land. I doubt Moore would want to fill the heart of their town with a giant non revenue generating parking lot. At the same time, there is no part of Moore that could accommodate a commuter train stop without it being a park and ride. So, IMO a stop just doesn't make sense for Moore or the RTA.

I think you are missing the ball here. Ridership wouldn't likely necessitate the need for a 25-acre parking lot like you may see in larger cities. A parking lot with several hundred spaces would likely be enough to serve a Moore stop for the foreseeable future. The Park and Ride on New Mexico Rail Runner at Montano Street is just 3.5 acres including a bus stop and the train platform. I estimate about 200 parking spots at that stop.

https://i.gyazo.com/12ece523272905940c7d0a01791f8979.png

This site in Moore is 3.25 acres and is very comparable in size and layout and would probably support the needs of a commuter line for 20-30 years or more.

https://i.gyazo.com/e84268d3aecf9d964b5b6dd36c68874a.png

Thanks for posting those pictures, Catch22 - this is exactly my argument as well and you've illustrated it perfectly.

17516

Virtual Townhall on 6/15

I think you are missing the ball here. Ridership wouldn't likely necessitate the need for a 25-acre parking lot like you may see in larger cities. A parking lot with several hundred spaces would likely be enough to serve a Moore stop for the foreseeable future. The Park and Ride on New Mexico Rail Runner at Montano Street is just 3.5 acres including a bus stop and the train platform. I estimate about 200 parking spots at that stop.

https://i.gyazo.com/12ece523272905940c7d0a01791f8979.png

This site in Moore is 3.25 acres and is very comparable in size and layout and would probably support the needs of a commuter line for 20-30 years or more.

https://i.gyazo.com/e84268d3aecf9d964b5b6dd36c68874a.png

I didn't pull Moore out of the RTA. I am just pointing out that Moore deciding to pull out is not a negative for the RTA. I am much more interested in the stops that will be able to serve the surrounding communities than the stops that will serve surface parking lots. IMO Moore pulling out saves the RTA from one more park and ride stop and that is not a bad thing.

I didn't pull Moore out of the RTA. I am just pointing out that Moore deciding to pull out is not a negative for the RTA. I am much more interested in the stops that will be able to serve the surrounding communities than the stops that will serve surface parking lots. IMO Moore pulling out saves the RTA from one more park and ride stop and that is not a bad thing.

Downtown Moore - as well as several large neighborhoods - are all within easy walking distance of this spot, and within driving distance for those further out. I expect that pretty much all stops will have at least some amount of parking, as that is common for commuter rail stations in the United States - except for areas of very high residential density like certain stops in Chicago. This is also true of our neighbors to the south in the DFW Metroplex - nearly every stop on the TRE is tied to a parking lot.

I, for one, hope Moore reconsiders, as not having them in the system would indeed be a blow to the line and the community.

Downtown Moore - as well as several large neighborhoods - are all within easy walking distance of this spot, and within driving distance for those further out. I expect that pretty much all stops will have at least some amount of parking, as that is common for commuter rail stations in the United States - except for areas of very high residential density like certain stops in Chicago. This is also true of our neighbors to the south in the DFW Metroplex - nearly every stop on the TRE is tied to a parking lot.

I, for one, hope Moore reconsiders, as not having them in the system would indeed be a blow to the line and the community.

Of course each stop will require parking but any stop in Moore would exclusively require someone driving to and from the stop. These Types of stops should be avoided. There is nowhere in Moore where a passenger could get off and access anything without immediately needing a car. No serious amount of people in Moore could comfortably access any stop in Moore without driving to it. That is simply not going change in Moore. Since Covid, these park and ride transit stops have been crushed in several cities as they cater to a very specific twice a day 5 days a week downtown commuter that disappeared (and may never fully recover.)

^^ no they shouldn’t be avoided. Park n ride can be very beneficial in reducing urban traffic in the core or cities. What a ridiculous take. Moore should also increase cycling facilities and bus service, something they can do on their own without having their hands out for the RTA to do for them.

Moore has had years pre-RTA to do something about cycling and transit (they wouldn't have even have had to do it themselves, they could have partnered with Embark to make a few routes that linked to the rest of the network) for their citizens and they've done squat. It's clearly not a priority for them at all.

Of course each stop will require parking but any stop in Moore would exclusively require someone driving to and from the stop. These Types of stops should be avoided. There is nowhere in Moore where a passenger could get off and access anything without immediately needing a car. No serious amount of people in Moore could comfortably access any stop in Moore without driving to it. That is simply not going change in Moore. Since Covid, these park and ride transit stops have been crushed in several cities as they cater to a very specific twice a day 5 days a week downtown commuter that disappeared (and may never fully recover.)

So two things: first, the location we've outlined in Moore at 4th and Broadway is literally just south of downtown Moore, and sidewalks already exist to connect from downtown to 4th Street. This does need improvement, as well as some sidewalks along 4th Street too to make neighborhood access easier - but the facility already exists today (at least partially) and sidewalks are (relatively) easy to add. Plus the aquatic center and park is right there as well, which can be a destination in and of itself, if marketed as such. In addition to that, transit oriented development is a thing - if Moore commits to having a commuter station, that station won't exist in a void and it *will* spur nearby development. Both of these needs - destinations available immediately to passengers upon exiting the station, as well as the capability for people to drive to the station in order to ride - are important and need to be considered in balance.

Moore's out now so is Midwest City and Del City. It's not looking like this is going to happen. The more groups that drop, the higher the cost is for those that are left. I dont see Norman and Edmond paying for it besause there's no benefit for them with paying for all the work related to this now.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2022/06/15/oklahoma-city-regional-transit-no-longer-connect-del-city-moore-midwest-city/7618051001/

It’s still going to happen.

It’s still going to happen.

What is the basis of your belief?
I agree with BMWC. Norman and Edmond are not going to approve the costs that are increasing because of quitters.

It’s still going to happen.

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but I'll believe it when I see it. The amount of money required to get this thing going would require a bone in each city even if everyone did agree. Right now, Norman would have to pay for all the work done to get a line put through Moore. I think the city of Moore might have something to say about that. Depending on where the Edmond line goes, you may have some of the smaller burbs up there to worry about.

And them still talking about it still needing to convert to bus to go to Tinker. Come on, i mean that kills it too. Why bother with the train if they are going to have an express bus option to Tinker?
Keep in mind that people that can afford a car, aren't going to be the ones making use of this. So those downtown workers aren't really the ones you're marketing to. Which is the biggest reason these cities are dropping out. They don't see ridership coming to fruition. I've said all along that i wish we could do this and that it only works if everyone does it at the same time. But that we just dont have the density to make it work.

What is the basis of your belief?
I agree with BMWC. Norman and Edmond are not going to approve the costs that are increasing because of quitters.
OKC, Edmond, and Norman are the biggest pieces of the puzzle. The RTA needs those cities. Funding from MWC, Moore, and Del City aren’t so important. Tinker is also a big goal and the agency is still planning on funding that. I highly doubt this plan is scrapped. If anything it may allow it to move faster. These cities, at least Moore and MWC will eventually buy back in.

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but I'll believe it when I see it. The amount of money required to get this thing going would require a bone in each city even if everyone did agree. Right now, Norman would have to pay for all the work done to get a line put through Moore. I think the city of Moore might have something to say about that. Depending on where the Edmond line goes, you may have some of the smaller burbs up there to worry about.

And them still talking about it still needing to convert to bus to go to Tinker. Come on, i mean that kills it too. Why bother with the train if they are going to have an express bus option to Tinker?
Keep in mind that people that can afford a car, aren't going to be the ones making use of this. So those downtown workers aren't really the ones you're marketing to. Which is the biggest reason these cities are dropping out. They don't see ridership coming to fruition. I've said all along that i wish we could do this and that it only works if everyone does it at the same time. But that we just dont have the density to make it work.
A train to Tinker seems like overkill but then again I would like to see projected ridership numbers. Norman alone won’t pay for it it’ll be a collection of various other cities in the RTA that pool in money. Edmond and Norman along with OKC are by far and large the biggest monetary contributors. Yukon is also mulling a membership.

I was fairly skeptical of this whole project, and continue to be, at least in it's current iteration. I too don't see how rail works at this rate without all the original members.

A better option may be to go back to the table and figure out how all 3 of these cities could get their bus systems integrated and expanded. Figure out where the ridership needs are really coming from and make sure those areas are covered.

Like others have said most of those that can afford a car will drive.

With these recent developments the virtual townhall tonight should provide some clarity.

OKC, Edmond, and Norman are the biggest pieces of the puzzle. The RTA needs those cities. Funding from MWC, Moore, and Del City aren’t so important. Tinker is also a big goal and the agency is still planning on funding that. I highly doubt this plan is scrapped. If anything it may allow it to move faster. These cities, at least Moore and MWC will eventually buy back in.
So it is nothing other than faith that those drop outs will rejoin? I wouldn't vote to approve it in Norman on that basis.

So it is nothing other than faith that those drop outs will rejoin? I wouldn't vote to approve it in Norman on that basis.
Did you not read the article? From what it says the RTA is still moving forward and is planning around MWCs drop out in favor of rapid bus service and the train from OKC to Norman is still a go it just won’t stop in Moore. Now mind you this is information coming from the Oklahoma so consider the source. Actually you hit the nail on head with more information coming out tonight from the town hall. I’ll be interested to watch that.

^ Yes I read the article written by Lackmeyer.
Unless I read it here first I don't give him much stock.

The meeting is live and has been since 6:30: https://engagekh.com/rtamoves/events

Would OKC be better served to just attempt a pass at a 0.5 cent transit sales tax instead of hoping a 1 cent RTA tax might come to fruition?

Nah go big or go home. Let the people decide. LA County has a 1 cent sales for transit. It can be done here.

It really is Edmond, OKC, Norman because the commuter rail is just going through BNSF right of way anyway, so the stops themselves are a relatively large percentage of the overall capital costs anyway. If I'm OKC, Edmond, and Norman - I'm telling Moore specifically but everyone else as well - there will be no funding from the RTA for stops to get in after the fact. If Moore wants to get in later, they build the station on their dime (or at least sizable percentage) and then on top of that start contributing to the 1-cent sales tax. If they can't do both, then they're not in.

If they were to join now, the reality is their station would basically be subsidized by the big 3.

Honestly, this should make the RTA more palatable for Normanites because this cuts off a stop between downtown and Norman, that probably improves times by 5 minutes when you factor in slowing down, being stopped, and speeding back up.

OK guys and gals. Let's talk some transit sense.

Most if not all of you on here are going on and on about this city and that dropping out, like it's a ballbuster. When in fact, the cities only need to be involved primarily for the stations/park n ride(s) that stop in their city. RTD is a regional government that can tax without approval of the cities. Sure, it'd be great if they also had those councils support but if they decide not to it's not a deal breaker - the RTD would just fund the rail through those cities. The biggest deal breaker would be Oklahoma City, followed by Norman, Edmond, and Tinker since those are Termini of the commuter rail lines, you gotta have somewhere for the trains to go right?. Rail and cities inbetween are not a major concern since the RTD can fund the rails with it's regional power (still tax in those cities) and the cities can opt in and build their stations/park n ride later, or not.

Here in the seattle, tacoma area. We have an RTD known as Sound Transit. They get funding regardless of what the cities of Seattle or Tacoma or wherever else say and Sound Transit pays for the track through cities that don't get service. Seattle and Tacoma operate their rail stations but the ops, rail cars, and rails - it's the regional transit authority. The same would be adopted for OKC.

Would be great to have cities onboard, but not a requirement or dealbreaker other than OKC and the Termini.

One more thought. OKC should pursue RTA funding from a variety of sources, not JUST sales tax. In fact, I'd argue OKC should use sales tax at all if possible, other than perhaps the initial MAPS like capital investment in the rail cars, stations, and maintenance & operations center. Again, the RTD would be funding this stuff not OKC city.

Funding options include: Property Tax (Oklahoma and Cleveland counties, Canadian county later) + Gas Tax + Vehicle Title (transit portion) + Transit tax added to vehicle registration + Parking tax (transit portion) + State RTD funding + Federal Government funding + sales tax + bonds. These are all methods Sound Transit uses, should work in OKC too. And since OKC's taxes are already quite low, spreading over these media shouldn't adversely impact any one contributor.

OK guys and gals. Let's talk some transit sense.

Most if not all of you on here are going on and on about this city and that dropping out, like it's a ballbuster. When in fact, the cities only need to be involved primarily for the stations/park n ride(s) that stop in their city. RTD is a regional government that can tax without approval of the cities. Sure, it'd be great if they also had those councils support but if they decide not to it's not a deal breaker - the RTD would just fund the rail through those cities. The biggest deal breaker would be Oklahoma City, followed by Norman, Edmond, and Tinker since those are Termini of the commuter rail lines, you gotta have somewhere for the trains to go right?. Rail and cities inbetween are not a major concern since the RTD can fund the rails with it's regional power (still tax in those cities) and the cities can opt in and build their stations/park n ride later, or not.

Here in the seattle, tacoma area. We have an RTD known as Sound Transit. They get funding regardless of what the cities of Seattle or Tacoma or wherever else say and Sound Transit pays for the track through cities that don't get service. Seattle and Tacoma operate their rail stations but the ops, rail cars, and rails - it's the regional transit authority. The same would be adopted for OKC.

Would be great to have cities onboard, but not a requirement or dealbreaker other than OKC and the Termini.

i don't believe that this is how the RTD governance is set up in Oklahoma .. any funding takes public votes ... and iirc the cities have to set the votes for their citizens ..

Funding options include: Property Tax (Oklahoma and Cleveland counties, Canadian county later) + Gas Tax + Vehicle Title (transit portion) + Transit tax added to vehicle registration + Parking tax (transit portion) + State RTD funding + Federal Government funding + sales tax + bonds. These are all methods Sound Transit uses, should work in OKC too. And since OKC's taxes are already quite low, spreading over these media shouldn't adversely impact any one contributor.

the only local funding option currently allowed in Oklahoma would be a new sales tax ..

It really is Edmond, OKC, Norman because the commuter rail is just going through BNSF right of way anyway, so the stops themselves are a relatively large percentage of the overall capital costs anyway. If I'm OKC, Edmond, and Norman - I'm telling Moore specifically but everyone else as well - there will be no funding from the RTA for stops to get in after the fact. If Moore wants to get in later, they build the station on their dime (or at least sizable percentage) and then on top of that start contributing to the 1-cent sales tax. If they can't do both, then they're not in.

If they were to join now, the reality is their station would basically be subsidized by the big 3.

Honestly, this should make the RTA more palatable for Normanites because this cuts off a stop between downtown and Norman, that probably improves times by 5 minutes when you factor in slowing down, being stopped, and speeding back up.

Exactly this. This makes the Norman to OKC route faster and removes a stop that a person in Norman would never utilize. No one would get on the train in Norman to travel to a park and ride in Moore. Once you got there you would be stranded without a car which defeats the entire purpose of using transit.

Exactly this. This makes the Norman to OKC route faster and removes a stop that a person in Norman would never utilize. No one would get on the train in Norman to travel to a park and ride in Moore. Once you got there you would be stranded without a car which defeats the entire purpose of using transit.

So there would be no demand for students or employees living in Moore that go to Norman on a daily basis? How do you know that?

Double post

So there would be no demand for students or employees living in Moore that go to Norman on a daily basis? How do you know that?

I'm not talking about people living in Moore. I'm talking about it being better for people living in Norman. It makes the trip faster and removes a useless (for Normanites) stop. Win win.

Can County Governments raise a county wide sales tax? Is the sales tax the only revenue source for county level projects?

Can county governments raise a sales tax. I believe so.

Is sales tax the only revenue source for counties. No. They can also property tax.

We need someone to weigh in on the powers that regional government has. Here in WA, our RTD has broad powers beyond those of cities/counties. Sound Transit can and has bonds, and a variety of property tax, gas tax, and other fees usually vehicle related. If OKC didn't get this authority in its RTA then it's somehting that needs to be expedited. There's no way a RTA should have to depend on a city, with the small exception being a rail station but even then the RTA can and should move independent of a city's municipal council.

Otherwise, why have a regional government entity?

Los Angeles Metro though running bus lines out of the county is a multi city RTA and is pretty much confined to LA county. They run a sales tax that expands through the entire county, IIRC. But LA county is much larger to Oklahoma county. This type of setup makes more sense than to go strictly by county. It seems to me that there would be an agreement on the sales tax and all cities in the RTA would vote on it in one election. I don’t know what would happen if one city didn’t get enough votes.

The Norman CC kicked in another 31k to cover the drop outs.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.normantranscript.com/news/cities-pull-out-of-rta-norman-picks-up-tab/article_50778d72-edc0-11ec-b406-4b7f93dc56d2.amp.html

So there would be no demand for students or employees living in Moore that go to Norman on a daily basis? How do you know that?

No beacuse what does a commuter rail do? It gets you between two points that are not intended (in the burbs) to get you anywhere in that burb other than one single station. So you again either have to walk or change to a bus to get there. In reality, do you think that there will be enough traffic of people that need to do that to sustain it?

People here keep talking about building, but what about sustaining? This crap's expensive to keep going. Running one car back and forth is less efficient than a dang bus, which ridership shows, people do not use here in any large capacity. Again, we're just not dense enough to be walkable enough, for people to use this thing.

So Moore comes in later and votes to build a station and join the club. Great. MWC and DC already have the right of way, just have to do line repairs and build a station too. They probably would get a better participation on that line. You've got people that would honestly be park and riders to downtown to work and if you can convince Tinker to let it go ON the base, then you've got an insane win there. Onbase transit actually works well.

Yukon/Mustang, meh, i think that's a stretch to be honest. Too distributed.

That's great that the Norman CC donated some money. It might help to put grass down in the parking lot of a few stations. but 30k will absolutely not sustain this. Lets not kid ourselves in hopes that it works.

Adding additional stops may not be so cut and dry. This is BNSF's property after all and even if they are supposedly going to operate the commuter trains and fit the schedules into their network, they may not desire any additional stops in the future. They are in the freight business after all and are quite reluctant to anything that stands in their way. So if I were Moore, I would think long and hard about not getting in on the ground floor. It may be very difficult to buy their way in one day in the future.

I don't understand the justification for the Moore hate from a certain few posters in this thread. It is no different than 99% of the metro when it comes to density or lack of urban infrastructure. The Park and Ride concept is successful all over the country, and if the requirements for a stop are an urban location we may as well not have a train at all, anywhere in the metro. Transit leads urban infrastructure, not the way around. Any stops along the way will likely densify over time. Celebrating the loss of a member of the RTA because they aren't "cool" enough is a strange take. This only adds costs to the remaining members and leads to complications in the future should they change their position and wish to join.

Who is hating Moore in this thread?

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but I'll believe it when I see it. The amount of money required to get this thing going would require a bone in each city even if everyone did agree. Right now, Norman would have to pay for all the work done to get a line put through Moore. I think the city of Moore might have something to say about that. Depending on where the Edmond line goes, you may have some of the smaller burbs up there to worry about.

And them still talking about it still needing to convert to bus to go to Tinker. Come on, i mean that kills it too. Why bother with the train if they are going to have an express bus option to Tinker?
Keep in mind that people that can afford a car, aren't going to be the ones making use of this. So those downtown workers aren't really the ones you're marketing to. Which is the biggest reason these cities are dropping out. They don't see ridership coming to fruition. I've said all along that i wish we could do this and that it only works if everyone does it at the same time. But that we just dont have the density to make it work.

THANK YOU for bringing some practical reality to this broader discussion. I appreciate the value of something like DART in Dallas, or even the rail service in the LA area, and *conceptually* the idea sounds great anywhere, but the reality is that the greater OKC area doesn't have the population density to make this work. I don't blame Moore at all for pulling out if they were being constrained to finance it only through sales taxes.

The Norman CC kicked in another 31k to cover the drop outs.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.normantranscript.com/news/cities-pull-out-of-rta-norman-picks-up-tab/article_50778d72-edc0-11ec-b406-4b7f93dc56d2.amp.html


Midwest City Mayor Matt Dukes told the newspaper in April that his city did not want to raise taxes or contribute more money to the annual cost.

“The RTA hasn’t pursued any funding other than a sales tax hike to fund this monster … Midwest City’s is 9.1%. If they went for a 4% increase, that would put us at 13.1 percent. That would be unacceptable,” Dukes said.

Now that just feel blatantly dishonest. Pretty sure there's a 0% chance the RTA sales tax would be a whopping 4 cents on the dollar, right?

I'd have more respect for Midwest City dropping out if their Mayor wasn't outright lying about their rationale for it. That 'Monster' comment of his also rubs me a bit wrong, it demonstrates a bias that causes me to be unwilling to take the rest of his commentary at face value.

Now that just feel blatantly dishonest. Pretty sure there's a 0% chance the RTA sales tax would be a whopping 4 cents on the dollar, right?

I'd have more respect for Midwest City dropping out if their Mayor wasn't outright lying about their rationale for it. That 'Monster' comment of his also rubs me a bit wrong, it demonstrates a bias that causes me to be unwilling to take the rest of his commentary at face value.

Lol 4 cents. Looks like the RTA is going to be developing entire cities.

This is BNSF's property after all and even if they are supposedly going to operate the commuter trains and fit the schedules into their network, they may not desire any additional stops in the future. They are in the freight business after all and are quite reluctant to anything that stands in their way. Catch22

It is indeed BNSF’s freight business. Having worked as a trainman, here in OKC, for 38 years, the current railroad infrastructure is not conducive to running multiple scheduled commuter trains Norman to Edmond. Single track bridges S 59th, Broadway Extension, I 44, and Western. It just isn’t going to happen. Only if the area wants to build a dedicated right of way. And that would be very expensive. Wonder what a DART double track separated right of way would cost these days. OKC just doesn’t have the history, or the density to make this work.

This is BNSF's property after all and even if they are supposedly going to operate the commuter trains and fit the schedules into their network, they may not desire any additional stops in the future. They are in the freight business after all and are quite reluctant to anything that stands in their way. Catch22

It is indeed BNSF’s freight business. Having worked as a trainman, here in OKC, for 38 years, the current railroad infrastructure is not conducive to running multiple scheduled commuter trains Norman to Edmond. Single track bridges S 59th, Broadway Extension, I 44, and Western. It just isn’t going to happen. Only if the area wants to build a dedicated right of way. And that would be very expensive. Wonder what a DART double track separated right of way would cost these days. OKC just doesn’t have the history, or the density to make this work.

Exactlly. Everyone that thought this was just going to hop on existing (in use) rails was delusional. Anyone ever been in Norman during the day when one of the lines is dedicated to a train just hanging out waiting for its turn somewhere? That's every other day. Yeah, they could take over lines like the one in MWC/DC since it's been abandoned for as long as i've been alive (at least as long as i can remember).

Commuter rail is gonna have to build their own thing. And THAT, my friends, is extremely expensive. You're more likely to see some elevated monstrosity and i do not want to look at that (chicago).

Commuter rail is not going to “build their own thing.” You have absolutely no clue what the f@ck you’re talking about and clearly have never seen how these things work in real cities. No one is responding to you because it’s not worth it. There is no need to turn an immediate profit and you honestly believe that the people planning this aren’t aware of operating costs? Sit and bitch about it all you want but if you live in Midwest City it isn’t your problem. Public transit is comical in OKC and is something that is extremely embarrassing when people that come visit from actual cosmopolitan cities. It’s mentality like yours that has led OKC to be an absolute joke of a city.

Thankfully the tide is starting to change and OKC is moving up. These lines will be built and more than likely will use BNSF tracks just like Amtrak does. Railways need to be nationalized anyways. Mass transit is built for the purpose of the greater good. If you think numbers need to be shown to turn a profit than let’s talk about tolling every freeway in the metro that’s subsidized by the federal government.

This is BNSF's property after all and even if they are supposedly going to operate the commuter trains and fit the schedules into their network, they may not desire any additional stops in the future. They are in the freight business after all and are quite reluctant to anything that stands in their way. Catch22

It is indeed BNSF’s freight business. Having worked as a trainman, here in OKC, for 38 years, the current railroad infrastructure is not conducive to running multiple scheduled commuter trains Norman to Edmond. Single track bridges S 59th, Broadway Extension, I 44, and Western. It just isn’t going to happen. Only if the area wants to build a dedicated right of way. And that would be very expensive. Wonder what a DART double track separated right of way would cost these days. OKC just doesn’t have the history, or the density to make this work.

Actually, OKC does have the history. Too bad most of this age fail to realize OKC was a city back in 1889, before the vehicle age.

This is BNSF's property after all and even if they are supposedly going to operate the commuter trains and fit the schedules into their network, they may not desire any additional stops in the future. They are in the freight business after all and are quite reluctant to anything that stands in their way. Catch22

It is indeed BNSF’s freight business. Having worked as a trainman, here in OKC, for 38 years, the current railroad infrastructure is not conducive to running multiple scheduled commuter trains Norman to Edmond. Single track bridges S 59th, Broadway Extension, I 44, and Western. It just isn’t going to happen. Only if the area wants to build a dedicated right of way. And that would be very expensive. Wonder what a DART double track separated right of way would cost these days. OKC just doesn’t have the history, or the density to make this work.

Last I heard the RTA is or will be in negotiation with them to operate the service (as a paid contractor). If that is the case, BNSF will make it work. As you are aware, the only language the railroads speak is Dollars and Cents. If they are making a buck running a commuter service a few times a day, they will find space in their schedule.

THANK YOU for bringing some practical reality to this broader discussion. I appreciate the value of something like DART in Dallas, or even the rail service in the LA area, and *conceptually* the idea sounds great anywhere, but the reality is that the greater OKC area doesn't have the population density to make this work. I don't blame Moore at all for pulling out if they were being constrained to finance it only through sales taxes.

As a Midwest City native who moved to the Denton/Corinth (DFW) area and even further south to the Temple/Belton area south of Waco recently, I'm a huge fan of DFWs rail networks and they're extremely efficient.

I've taken the A-train from Denton to Trinity Millis (Carrollton), transferred over to the DART Green Line and went further into downtown and even across the metroplex. Several times in downtown, I've transferred over to Trinity Railway Express that runs between downtown Dallas to downtown Fort Worth.

I've taken the Amtrak from Temple, TX to Dallas where I then transferred back to the DART, and I've taken the Heartland Flyer from Bricktown to Fort Worth that stops in Gainesville, Ardmore, Pauls Valley, Purcell, and Norman. OKC would absolutely benefit from having DART like system across the city. Being able to take a train from Yukon to Bricktown and then either to Edmond, Norman, or Midwest City would be nice, and the train is a good backup contingency option for those that encounter sudden car issues or just prefer an alternate method for commuting across the city. After living in Europe, the east coast, and now Texas where I've ridden many trains, I'm a huge fan.

If Midwest City passes on this, they're missing out.

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/08/05/NOKL/32cf48f6-496d-46d2-a112-e9b612176211-RTA_map2-01.jpg


A commuter rail link between Edmond, Oklahoma City and Norman is in the running for a $100 million federal grants funding as plans proceed for creation of a RTA (Regional Transit System).

"Consultant Kathryn Holmes told the Regional Transportation Authority of Central Oklahoma the proposed operation is eligible for the Federal Transportation Administration’s New Start Project grants that provide a minimum of $100 million toward systems totaling more than $300 million."--Oklahoman, Lackmeyer 06/21/2022

So the Feds will cover 1/3 of the cost of construction on a $300 million infrastructure rail investment.


Source: Oklahoman https://oklahoman-ok.newsmemory.com/?token=d730bd5f0be0d0c9acadab6bbd851952_62b1d6f5_c be8&selDate=20220621&msgid=22621KwHhdDgq45T7H3gzyI4znObypj3

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