Smells like an excuse.
Correct.

I mean what did they expect? Run the train into the base? Have a full security sweep every time it goes on base?

Sounds almost like he was suggesting the RTA should also fund the separate shuttle system on-base. But we probably aren’t hearing the full story.

Here's an idea, how about MWC chip in and fund the shuttle instead of backing out of an obligation!

Here's an idea, how about MWC chip in and fund the shuttle instead of backing out of an obligation!

Or set it up that if they rejoin in the future they have to back pay for it. So they can't just "wait and see" until it will benefit them (once the other cities have paid into the system to create everything).


I generally don't like the idea of any transit system using BNSF rail lines for anything intra-metro unless the lines are for the exclusive use of the metro.
On passenger rail lines, my understanding of one reason everything is so slow is that passenger rail can only travel as fast as the freight rail. Since the freight companies own the lines, they end up with priority / right-of-way, thus freight trains don't have to move over for passenger trains. Since passenger trains are interspersed between freight trains and operate on the same tracks, they can neither speed up nor slow down or they would interfere with freight.

Meh, I don’t think we should punish them for pulling out. If I was a citizen I’d be pissed though.

Or set it up that if they rejoin in the future they have to back pay for it. So they can't just "wait and see" until it will benefit them (once the other cities have paid into the system to create everything).


I generally don't like the idea of any transit system using BNSF rail lines for anything intra-metro unless the lines are for the exclusive use of the metro.
On passenger rail lines, my understanding of one reason everything is so slow is that passenger rail can only travel as fast as the freight rail. Since the freight companies own the lines, they end up with priority / right-of-way, thus freight trains don't have to move over for passenger trains. Since passenger trains are interspersed between freight trains and operate on the same tracks, they can neither speed up nor slow down or they would interfere with freight.

Honestly, if whoever that wants to do passenger rail doesn't build their own, it's never going to be a very viable option. Like you said BNSF is always going to dictate what goes on on their rails, and if you look at the state of logistics and freight transportation, rail is set to increase how much it's shipping. There are also things to consider like precision scheduled railroading (PSR) that's allowing consists to be longer than ever, I got to think that's going to negatively effect passenger rail as well.

I believe the RTA wants to pay BNSF to operate the trains on their rails. If that is the case there is very little to worry about with being held up by freight. The railroads only language is dollars and if they are being paid to operate the service it will operate at a very high priority. What they give low priority to is trackage rights trains - other companies and Amtrak. Those pay very little and contribute nothing to their bottom line so they get the lowest priority of anything.

Side note: BNSF does not operate under precision railroading they are one of the last hold outs.

Not specifically OKC but a nice article about mass transit systems opening/UC around the world: https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2022/01/24/openings-and-construction-starts-planned-for-2022/

I believe the RTA wants to pay BNSF to operate the trains on their rails. If that is the case there is very little to worry about with being held up by freight. The railroads only language is dollars and if they are being paid to operate the service it will operate at a very high priority. What they give low priority to is trackage rights trains - other companies and Amtrak. Those pay very little and contribute nothing to their bottom line so they get the lowest priority of anything.

Side note: BNSF does not operate under precision railroading they are one of the last hold outs.

Would be similar to the BNSF portion of Chicago's Metra service then...? https://metra.com/bnsf

Not specifically OKC but a nice article about mass transit systems opening/UC around the world: https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2022/01/24/openings-and-construction-starts-planned-for-2022/

Nicely OMITS OKC's NW BRT route scheduled for 2023 opening. ....

in fact, I've noticed the lack of coverage OKC gets nationwide/worldwide on projects or retail expansion. It's almost like we're an afterthought, if at all.

Probably because that really isn’t true BRT lol

haha, good point. wink.

I was checking out El Paso's transit and it could be a great example for OKC to adopt. https://sunmetro.net/routes/transit-centers/

You posted a very interesting El Paso transit model.

December 2, 2021:

Mayors and tribes across Oklahoma have lists miles long of projects they hope to fund with some of the more than $5 billion that has been unlocked for Oklahoma by the federal Infrastructure Bill...


$4.6 billion for roads and bridges
$520 million for water infrastructure projects
$500 million for airport and public transportation
$100 million to improve internet access
$1.12 million low-income Oklahomans

Norman

“We have stormwater needs because we’re the largest city in the state of Oklahoma not to have a stormwater utility because we’re the only city in the state that has to vote on the creation or raising of the utility, so having funds to address gaps in that area will be fantastic,” said Norman Mayor Breea Clark.

According to the city’s website, the project involves widening 36th Ave NW from north of Tecumseh Road to north of Indian Hills Road from two to four lanes, with five-foot-wide on-street bike lanes.

Enid

Jerald Gilbert, Enid’s city manager, said the city is very excited about the prospect of additional infrastructure funding to fix the city’s aging and insufficient infrastructure.

“Roads, streets, and bridges are a huge need for us in Enid. Water and sewer lines are another exciting possibilities. Just about any infrastructure that you could imagine, requires repairs, replacements, or improvements,” he said.

Oklahoma City

Mayor David Holt said he is very interested in money for roads and bridges and the city’s transit dollars.

. . . passenger rail would potentially link us up to Newton, Kansas, which is a northern suburb of Wichita, making the whole Amtrak network more available to our residents,” he said.

“When I talk about these things, and the benefits I see for Oklahoma City, I also recognize we’re talking about years to award these dollars and years beyond that to begin construction,” Holt said.

Lawton

Mayor Stan Booker said “We have a lot of water-sewer infrastructure that we’re hoping can be advanced with infrastructure money, and also some industrial roadwork; those are roads used for industrial traffic.

Choctaw Nation

Randy Sachs said infrastructure money will allow the Nation to make intergenerational infrastructural investments in broadband expansion, road construction and surface improvements, electrification and power generation, and many other things.

Oklahoma municipal and tribal officials say infrastructure money is needed: https://gaylordnews.net/7217/news/oklahoma-municipal-and-tribal-officials-say-infrastructure-money-is-needed/

Lawton needs to fix its traffic signals. That is the only place I got so frustrated I just starting running red lights after looking for traffic, Lee BLVD.

I know there is a pent-up need for roads and bridges to be maintained, but $4.6 billion seems like a ridiculously high number of the roughly $5.8 billion Oklahoma is slated to receive. Looks like the state is trying to get out of paying for any maintenance themself which is NOT the best use of these funds.

I think transit should receive a much larger amount and not be lumped in with airports which itself probably could be $500M. Oklahoma could put $4B into roads/bridges from the Federal alotment and $600M into transit would be a much better breakout. Of that $600M, $100M to Amtrak and stations, $250M to OKC for transit, $175M to Tulsa area, and $75M to the rest of the state. OKC's $250M could be split as $100M to Commuter Rail, $100M to Streetcar expansion, and $50M to BRT expansion.

Of course, these figures are JUST the federal alotment dollars with the state and/or city/regional govts pitching in more for their systems/projects.

Oklahoma City definitely needs to seek more infrastructure funds for WRWA, a second expansion and upgrades.

It's time to look at a massive expansion to the tune of $500 million for state airports with $200 million each going to WWRA Oklahoma City and Tulsa International and $100 million distributed to smaller airports throughout the state or however you want to distribute the funds.

If the funds are available, Oklahoma needs to get its share; regardless of whether our two U.S. Senators and five Congressional Representatives all voted against the infrastructure funds.

Someone needs to get this money and work with our two major cities and smaller airports for its use.

Oklahoma's Four Largest Airports:


1. Oklahoma City Will Rogers World Airport (Largest State Passenger Count)
2. Tulsa International (Largest State Cargo Count)
3. Lawton–Fort Sill Regional Airport
4. Stillwater Regional Airport

Do a needs assessment study and get the funds out to expand and or upgrade our airports.

A new wing at Will Rogers World Airport in Oklahoma City welcomed passengers once security measures were put in place, with flights anticipated to take off from the expansion’s four new gates by the end of September 2021.

The $90 million construction project began more than two years ago and will feature new lounges, amenities, security processes and the potential for future expansions and international flights.


“We don’t want to ever be in the position to say no to anybody because we don't have room,” said Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt on the ability to accommodate more nonstop flights and for continued improvement of the airport.--Oklahoman, September 13, 2021

Texas is getting $35 billion from the Biden bipartisan Infrastructure bill.

.

https://youtu.be/ct4bwWsP3iE

That is awesome. Hopefully OKC is ambitious with its proposal.

As someone who went to Seattle recently, the city is woefully under served as far as rail transportation.

This article from VeloCity outlines the chambers agenda and provides a summary of several road projects as well as mass/active transit projects.

It also mentions the future I-35 bridge over the Oklahoma River which will be an iconic and larger bridge:

https://www.velocityokc.com/blog/policy/eight-year-plan-brt-heartland-flyer-rta-support-among-chamber-s-transportation-priorities/?back=super_blog

Replacing existing river bridges with iconic bridges would showcase Oklahoma City at the confluence of two major U.S. interstate highways (Interstates 35/40) and facilitate increased sporting events and tourism in the boathouse district.

I'm down with iconic bridges, but not sure I understand how they will facilitate increased sporting events and tourism in the boathouse district. It's not like you can't see that stuff from the current bridges.

They also didn't do their homework. The 2005 fixed guideway study isn't the lastest, and they didn't catch that the RTA lost a member city.

I'm down with iconic bridges, but not sure I understand how they will facilitate increased sporting events and tourism in the boathouse district. It's not like you can't see that stuff from the current bridges.

They also didn't do their homework. The 2005 fixed guideway study isn't the lastest, and they didn't catch that the RTA lost a member city.

The drag boat races have to run a shorter length due to the bridge supports on the I 35 bridge. Clear span will not have a support column in the water. Also with the longer distance rowing boats, same issue exist.

I'm down with iconic bridges, but not sure I understand how they will facilitate increased sporting events and tourism in the boathouse district. It's not like you can't see that stuff from the current bridges.

They also didn't do their homework. The 2005 fixed guideway study isn't the lastest, and they didn't catch that the RTA lost a member city.
Yeah they’re a bit behind but I believe this article was summarizing their meeting from last month. Not sure why they are going off of the 2005 guideway study.

I'm down with iconic bridges, but not sure I understand how they will facilitate increased sporting events and tourism in the boathouse district. It's not like you can't see that stuff from the current bridges…
The existing I-35 bridge is not clear-span as it crosses the river, and more importantly, the racing course. With pillars in the water in the racing course it disqualifies OKC as a true USOC qualifying venue.

Riversport has done a tremendous job in putting together rowing events thanks in large part to having world-class boathouse facilities - and has certainly attracted a fair number of Olympic athletes to live/train here - but OKC is severely limited on what type of events can be hosted due specifically to the obstructions in the race course. I believe this also creates limitations on championship-level NCAA events.

I’m sure there are other factors driving this desired bridge replacement, but enabling USOC qualifying and championship-level rowing - plus attracting the types of events and tourism that will result once OKC is fully capable - is definitely a prominent one.

The drag boat races have to run a shorter length due to the bridge supports on the I 35 bridge. Clear span will not have a support column in the water. Also with the longer distance rowing boats, same issue exist.

Sorry, I posted upthread before reading this post. This is exactly right, though it’s very much driven by crew events, with the potential for enhanced drag boat racing being a bonus much more than a driving factor.

Thanks for the clarifying why this is good, all.

Yes, they could do a beautiful bridge, something similar to the beautiful Margaret Hunt Hill bridge in Dallas. It is something like 40 stories tall and just breathtaking, especially lit up at night. I believe there was a Trinity River Trust, a private organization, that contributed, as did the city, as did TxDOT. OKC could do something similar.

The Hill bridge cost nearly $180 million, but a lot of that came from right of way that had to be purchased for the new river crossing. I35 obviously already exists so there's no right of way issues, but it is a much wider bridge. Maybe a good use of MAPS money to help contribute? IDK, just throwing out thoughts.

^^^ that bridge was what I thought of as well.

Not sure how a beautiful bridge benefits the city, as a whole. If the money is set aside, sure. But it should be highly illegal (it isn't, but should be) to use a material amount of MAPS funds on a bridge, just to make it pretty. It won't help the city, at all. That same amount of money could fix 10 bridges, which does help the city. Just my opinion. Not bashing at all.

When did maps funds come into this?

Edit: Oh I see. Yeah, no thanks if maps money.

Where is saying MAPS Funds are being used for that?

Where is saying MAPS Funds are being used for that?

The post right above yours.

Beautification absolutely benefits the city. I would have zero issue with future MAPS funding being used (in part) to rebuild the I-35 bridges over the N Canadian River. I say "in part" because ODOT should share in the cost of the bridge, given that it's an interstate highway.

Beautification does benefit the city I agree. I haven’t seen any proposal talk about MAPS funds for this though. When might we see MAPS 5? After 2030? Hopefully we get a new bridge proposal before then at least begin planning.

Maps 5 should be all about transit. The big five. Pick five large transit projects to fund and operate with the biggest maps proposal ever. Include this bridge as part of it.

I'm on the beautification subcommittee (because they threw that in with connectivity) and the budget is very, very low. There will be no bridges in that (MAPS4 beautification) budget.

We're talking about potential Maps 5 and I totally agree that OKC could be a much more beautiful city if it and the state focused on bridges and their landscaping/approaches.

I'd totally support if ODOT would redo the I-35 bridge and OKC chipped in (some funds from MAPS 5 perhaps) to make a grand suspension or cable-span bridge and named it "the Crossroads of America". Something GRAND and ICONIC but also functional for the river below as well as the vehicles/walkways on.

If we're talking MAPS5, if such a thing were to happen, we're talking about collecting this money between 2030-2040 and it not getting built until possibly after that if not late in that timeframe. Not sure that that lines up with either the chamber priority timeline or any I-35 construction...

Ideally the legislature would let ODOT take out a bond for the new bridge. Not sure if it would qualify for any bridge funds if the bridge isn’t in immediate need of replacement.

I agree that most of our infrastructure is quite ugly and think it's borderline unbelievable that there doesn't seem to be an ounce of landscaping among the approaches and ramps in the new 44/235 junction. (as an example). This was something built from scratch that could have incorporated stone walls, plantings, etc.

But we already have what is supposed to be the iconic OKC bridge just a mile or so west of this location. There are better uses for any available money than to try to build a Margaret Hunt-type bridge. Just my opinion.

Some good news as Yukon shows interest to join the RTA. Mustang would be wise to follow suit. Planning for an orbital LRT line should start ASAP before ROW is completely taken. Still think it’s extremely short sighted for MWC to not be part of this.

https://www.oklahoman.com/restricted/?return=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.oklahoman.com%2Fstory%2F news%2F2022%2F02%2F27%2Fokc-commuter-rail-between-edmond-and-norman-starts-10-million-rta%2F6854191001%2F

Some good news as Yukon shows interest to join the RTA. Mustang would be wise to follow suit. Planning for an orbital LRT line should start ASAP before ROW is completely taken. Still think it’s extremely short sighted for MWC to not be part of this.

https://www.oklahoman.com/restricted/?return=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.oklahoman.com%2Fstory%2F news%2F2022%2F02%2F27%2Fokc-commuter-rail-between-edmond-and-norman-starts-10-million-rta%2F6854191001%2F

they still want to go from downtown to Tinker AFB and having MWC opting out (thus not having a stop) will make that trip faster ... and that sounds great

they still want to go from downtown to Tinker AFB and having MWC opting out (thus not having a stop) will make that trip faster ... and that sounds great
No it doesn’t

they still want to go from downtown to Tinker AFB and having MWC opting out (thus not having a stop) will make that trip faster ... and that sounds great
I want to respond a little more in depth here. They can still do what other major cities do and offer express trains straight into Tinker. But MWC is not exactly full of affluent residents and in America lots of transit riders are ones that need transit with little to no alternatives like owning a car, which ideally the government could help with that but in todays political climate that idea is DOA.

MWC and it’s residents would greatly benefit having fast and reliable public transit to OKC. I really don’t think transit to tinker is going to be a game changer or attract any businesses there that wouldn’t otherwise locate there without transit options. But it does offer a healthy lifestyle and benefits the people that work there who want alternatives.

People in MWC own their own cars. Very few people take the busses. So much like other areas, the only way this works in MWC (and thus the only reason MWC would want to put money in to it) is if that rail ride can beat the car.....and it can't. Also, people that think MWC is just what's at 29th/I40 dont know anything about MWC. MWC actually has a pretty large affluent area. It's just not where you can see it from the highway. Basically, take Douglas and go east to Choctaw. But that's a different conversation.

To be honest, i dont think we're going to see a practical transit line for 50 years. We're not dense enough and the highways are too good. Now we're seeing the Turnpike Authority about to make MAJOR expansion in the metro. If anything, that should open the highways to make them faster as traffic diverts. And now that people are working remotely, there's even less of a need.

The dead horse that has been beaten too many times in here of course is this: people own cars because they have to, and not always because they want to or they can afford to. In this city there is not much of a choice except for a few key areas that happen to line up with decent bus service out of pure chance.

Investment in transit is an infrastructure investment that enables people to make a choice on what works best for them. For some people on low or fixed incomes owning a car is an anchor on their quality of life, hundreds of dollars per month that they may wish to save, spend on other things, or invest but otherwise cannot. Some people work a second job just to afford the car they use to survive in a city with few and challenging alternatives. That is a drain on quality of life.

If your transit model is only relying on the lower income residents to fund it, then its doomed to fail. You have to be able to attract the average person to WANT to ride the rail. People are not going to want to subsidize something on this scale.

If this gets moving, you'll see the pattern you always see in projects like this as well. The land value near the stations are going to go up. If the thought is that lower income residents will be able to walk to the station and ride to one part of town and then walk to work....well that's going to get blown up too. OKC simply is not built in a way for that either. We'd have to HEAVILY rely on bus connections, which just slows the whole thing down. So if your rail commute ends up eating up 2 hours instead of 30 minutes, you didn't really save on that car. You paid for it with your time. If you want a second job, it's a scheduling challenge. Otherwise it eats into the home life time too.

Don't get me wrong, i'd love to not have to drive in. But we'd have to do a MASSIVE deployment all at the same time to make it worth it at all. I just don't see it happening until the rail can beat a car.

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2022/02/22/NOKL/279e6bea-7fa8-451f-b48b-cb9a711e07a0-Kickapoo_south_map.jpg
MAP above shows OTA potential expansion routes between Moore & Norman
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/08/02/NOKL/c3ce977b-673f-42b4-ae5f-592cfd79e3dd-I-240_loop2-01.jpg
LOOP would encircle Oklahoma City connecting turnpikes with the Interstate Interchanges I-240, I-40 & I-44.

Engineering management on behalf of the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority insist the project for the Kickapoo Turnpike’s south extension
is only in its earliest stages. But Norman residents are worried the turnpike expansion plans are a done deal, with hundreds of homes
set to be potentially impacted.

About 1,000 people crammed into CrossPointe Church in Norman on Thursday night to voice their concerns over the new plan.

The project — announced February 22. 2022 by the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority and called “Advancing and Connecting Communities and Economies
Safely Statewide,” or ACCESS for short — is a 15-year, $5 billion plan that turnpike officials say will help manage highway congestion,
improve travel times and give drivers a better path to the southeast Oklahoma City metro area.--Oklahoman, 03-05-2022


.

Is there a timeline when this might happen? I find it ridiculous that there were estimates commuter rail could be running by the early 2020s and there isn’t even a DEIS for a single line yet. They still need to propose a dedicated funding source. Are they waiting until this thing with Russia, inflation, and high gas prices eases up?

Is there a timeline when this might happen? I find it ridiculous that there were estimates commuter rail could be running by the early 2020s and there isn’t even a DEIS for a single line yet. They still need to propose a dedicated funding source. Are they waiting until this thing with Russia, inflation, and high gas prices eases up?

Lol you would think there would be no better time to promote a potential Regional Transit System than now, gas prices are probably about to clear $4/gallon and Russia's invasion of Ukraine has knocked the pandemic out of the headlines for the first time in two years...

Lol you would think there would be no better time to promote a potential Regional Transit System than now, gas prices are probably about to clear $4/gallon and Russia's invasion of Ukraine has knocked the pandemic out of the headlines for the first time in two years...
I was thinking that but then also thinking how many people might oppose this because of high gas prices. As silly as it sounds I know many who think like that.

I think they should just propose it and get it over with. If it fails then focus efforts on the existing bus systems/street car expansion and revisit a metro rail system next decade.

Can OKC issue bonds to expand the streetcar instead of relying on MAPS or the RTA? Similar to how Moore issued bonds to pay for road expansion to be paid back through a small, temporary increase in property taxes.

OK still has the lowest gas tax in the region if not nation. And even if they put a $0.50 + surcharge on it in the OKC RTD area - it'd still be the lowest in the region.

The only concern in my book would be the property taxes, but again - OK is some of the lowest in the region and still would be with transit added.

For Regional Transit:
Initial Capital (initial rail cars and locos, initial commuter bus, O&M yard, transit centers/commuter rail stations, park n ride): State & Federal Transportation appropriation + RTA Property Tax
Renew Capital: RTA Property Tax
Operations and Maintenance: Gas Tax and Fares

should be a no-brainer other than if they should issue bonds to expedite or not. I like this because it does not rely on city members to provide funds for the RTD, they can still assess for transit in their own municipality making the system even more affordable and likely receptive by the taxpaying public.

for instance, OKC should make a sales tax adj (like $0.001) to fund transit operations/maintenance (local bus, streetcar, "BRT") within the city, while the RTA would fund Commuter Rail, Commuter Bus, and local bus (with tax from those cities) outside of OKC. I'd make streetcar free until the next expansion to build ridership and encourage folks to use the RTA, the bus could also be free inside of downtown.

As a peer example: Seattle used to have a downtown free zone paid by the downtown Seattle association, which really helped build ridership and patronage of downtown venues and shoppes. How it worked was fair was paid as you enter the bus for trips into downtown or as you exited the bus for trips out of downtown while trips within the downtown zone were free. This went away with the passage of Sound Transit and the development of our RTD but the free zone was really great and helped build transit here; I'd recommend it for OKC.

This WSJ article is very interesting about the pandemic-era existing commuter rail upon the trying dawn of our own.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-pricey-future-of-commuter-railroads-for-the-post-pandemic-era-11646575383?st=2xx8kstigci73ta&reflink=share_mobilewebshare

That article is very interesting and it mirrors what's happening in St. Louis as well.

The thing is, OKC is so far away from actually inaugurating a train system that I don't think "state of the moment" articles like this impact us too much. My guess is that natural population growth and the ongoing rejiggering of life means that in a few years, these older systems will be back up to pre-pandemic levels, it just may be at different times of the day, or with a different focus, etc.

OKC needs to be forward thinking and really planning for the next generation, not the current one. How will people be working in 2040 or 2050? More will be "from home," sure. But the population will also be probably 25-30% greater, so the actual numbers may wash out. The younger generations are not as excited about driving. The price of gas will probably be higher. I still think that the future of America (not 2025 or 2030, but certainly 2040 or 2050) will increasingly not be one-person-per-vehicle 45 minute drives on a standard highway. Whether that is bus, streetcar, commuter rail or driverless Ubers on their own dedicated lanes, remains to be seen. I would not want to be in the planning business. The world is undergoing huge changes.

Last night Moore joined MWC in pulling out of RTA.
Moore government wants a bus not rail based public transportation program.

Do they somehow imagine they are more likely to get that as a non-member of the RTA?

Last night Moore joined MWC in pulling out of RTA.
Moore government wants a bus not rail based public transportation program.

Face - "bye-bye nose"....

Regarding Moore: https://freepressokc.com/city-of-moore-withdraws-from-regional-transportation-authority/

Not really a huge loss. If Edmond or Norman pulled out that would be a real bummer. The RTA needs to get its head out of its ass and make a damn proposal already. I understand we’re in an uncertain economic situation but sitting and doing nothing doesn’t seem to be working. It seems to me that there are talks going on behind closed doors and cities like MWC and Moore are not happy with the idea of more taxes.

I just wish a proposal would be brought forward and put to a vote of the public already. The excitement on this has really worn off.

When the commuter rail line passes through Moore without stopping they will only have themselves to blame.

I recently used the New Mexico Rail Runner this weekend and while I found the frequency to be lacking, it would be a good model to aspire for an OKC commuter line from Norman to Edmond.

Um, but the RTA is going to run bus service as well I thought?

Um, but the RTA is going to run bus service as well I thought?

Not to Moore it would seem!