This came up in the Strawberry Fields C2S thread, but like I said there, I have always understood it as a hard rule of thumb that a city can support 1 to 5% of its metro population in the center city. I was asked in that thread to produce some stats on our peer cities, so this thread should serve as that. I'd encourage anyone who comes across such a stat or an article etc to share it in this thread.

Note 1: This thread is only useful if people refrain from city vs city and just focus on the facts that we're all interested in learning.

Note 2: The definition of a "downtown" is the crux of this as ALL cities are counting infill areas outside the CBD code, but it's a question of how much and how many areas. Wish I could add a land mass area to these stats...

Note 3: All numbers represent residents, unless otherwise states (i.e., "__ units")

Here's a few cities to start us off:

OKC - 7,500
http://www.okcchamber.com/clientuploads/PDFs/Retail/Downtown_brochure.pdf

Kansas City - 24,000 now, 29,000 planned (units underway), and 33,000 5-year target
http://www.kansascity.com/news/business/development/article84819842.html

Minneapolis - 40,000 currently, 70,000 target 2025
http://www.downtownmpls.com/page/show/423275-2025-plan

Tulsa - 6,000
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/retail/rejuvenated-downtown-tulsa-s-hub-ready-for-return-of-retail/article_9d37931b-6b4b-5c23-b024-4a1461c993a5.html

Des Moines - 10,000 (I don't trust this though)
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/how-des-moines-iowa-got-cool-213552

Austin - 12,000
http://www.downtownaustin.com/live/facts-figures

Fort Worth - 2,100 rental units, 960 condo units (3,000 x 1.5 = 4,500?)
http://www.dfwi.org/_files/docs/march---2016---dashboard.pdf

Dallas - I don't think is a fair apples-to-apples comparison

Houston - 3,600 in the 45/10/69 loop, 55,000 in "Greater Downtown" (Midtown + Near East? If they're counting Montrose and Heights I call bogus)
https://www.downtownhouston.org/resource/residential/

Cleveland - 14,000 now, 20,000 planned (units underway), 25,000 target
http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2016/05/how_downtown_cleveland_is_chan.html#0

Cincinnati - 16,000 (including OTR and Mt. Auburn)
http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/04/22/how-much-has-the-population-grown-in-cincinnati-s.html

Columbus - 7,000 (not including the Short North and German Village which each have 20,000)
http://www.columbusunderground.com/residential-population-continues-to-climb-in-downtown-columbus

Pittsburgh - 12,500, 2,300 more units planned
http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/6202435-74/downtown-units-percent

Philadelphia - 180,000 (nation's 2nd most populous CBD after Midtown Manhattan), developers build approx 2,000 units annually
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150421__Greater__Center_City_s_population_now_se cond_only_to_Midtown_Manhattan_s.html

Denver - 73,000, 13,000 new units since 2011 (counting Capitol Hill and Highland??)
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/blog/real_deals/2015/11/downtown-denvers-population-nears-73-000-12-933.html

Memphis - 24,000 (counting Mud Island?), 7,000 in the CBD
http://www.downtownmemphiscommission.com/plans-resources/downtown-demographics/

Nashville - 10,000
http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2016/07/29/survey-downtown-nashvilles-population-is-booming.html

Charlotte - 15,000, 20,000 planned
http://www.charlottecentercity.org/live/neighborhoods/

Milwaukee - 21,000 (including historic wards?)
https://www.milwaukeedowntown.com/images/content/downloads/2012Market_Profile.pdf

Detroit - 35,000 (including Midtown and Corktown)
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2015/03/report_finds_greater_downtown.html

Richmond - 10,000
http://cppweb.vcu.edu/urban/Richmond_VA%20Downtown%20Profile.pdf

Raleigh - 7,000
http://dtraleigh.com/2016/06/2016-downtown-raleigh-population-numbers/

Indianapolis - 27,000 (they don't have any other gentrified neighborhoods besides Broad Ripple)
https://indyimby.wordpress.com/2015/12/08/downtown-indy-population-increased-more-than-13000-between-2010-and-2010/

St. Louis - 14,000
http://fox2now.com/2013/05/28/downtown-st-louis-residential-population-growing/

Great article with an overview of Midwest downtowns: http://www.globest.com/sites/globest/2015/07/15/mixed-use-projects-remaking-the-midwest/

Denver at 73k seems impossible. That would be well over 10% of the Denver proper population.

Denver proper is not a large land mass, but like I pointed out, I think their Downtown Partnership is also counting ancillary areas like Five Points (debatable), Capitol Hill (NOT downtown), and the Highlands (also NOT downtown). For Denver I'd count downtown/LoDo, Five Points, and the Central Platte Valley.

However, to their point, Denver does have an incredible inventory of urban housing. It is a very substantial proportion of their metro population.

Sorry to keep this thread about Denver, but if memory serves they have been working on this for 30 odd years. When I left in 97 the first phase or so of lodo was well underway and they were turning a lot of then empty buildings into high rent lofts. As a complete metropolis including the suburbs they were growing both up and out. I grew up primarily in the Columbine/Chatfield area and the area around Ken Caryl Ranch exploded in housing and stores right around the time I left, and the field I walked through to get to Columbine is now shopping and a park.

where is chicago on this? I know they have a huge downtown population that has been rapidly growing - I thought Chicago would ahve the 2nd largest downtown night-time population (in addition to 2nd largest daytime downtown pop).

also, doesn't the OKC figure seem dated? only 7,000 residents?

Well the Chicago Loop has 33,000 full-time residents. Near North has another 85,000. Making for almost 120,000 residents in an area that corresponds to Philly's Center City. Chicago's true nighttime population is hard to guess at bc of that city's nightlife and tourism.

Philly just punches way above its weight as an urban center, but you don't think of it bc it gets overshadowed by much less nice locales like NYC :P

I can't speak to the freshness of the 7,000 stat, but it is the number being reported in the last few years. Maybe it's 8,000 now, but we're really not growing our downtown like other cities are, and all of these numbers are in flux - hence why so few compilations of these figures exist bc it's such a crude science.

That is a very liberal use of downtown for Denver. The population of downtown (CBD, LoDo, CPV, Union Station, Araphaoe Square) is around 20k. Now if you were to draw a 1.5-2 mile radius around a central point in the CBD that would include Capitol Hill, RiNo, Uptown, Golden Triangle, Lower Highlands, etc., you would be in the 70-75k range.

As for OKC, what is considered downtown in that 7k number? I would agree that OKC seems to be lagging behind many of the other cities you mentioned. I read in Lackmeyer's chat last week that the market is adjusting to the influx of new places like Lift and Metropolitan, so like 600-700 units, that really should just be a blip on the radar. Again, not to make this a thread about Denver or OKC vs Denver, but Denver has about 2x the population and has added over 15,000 units to the downtown area (depending of definition) in about 5 years and another 6,000 or so are currenlty under construction...so the equivalent of like 70 Lifts.

Edit: A quick glance at the Downtown Development Summary page indicates somewhere in the 2000-2200 range for new units(not counting conversions) since 2011 and about 600 currently under construction between Steelyard and 21C.

I think your estimate for Fort Worth might be a little low, though I don't have hard data to support this. I'd be interested to see the definition of downtown being used. If it covers all area between the Trinity/Clear Fork and freeways, I'd be surprised.

So all of the above are the exact reason I'm posting the links and my own reservations to these sources....

As for FW, they don't even register compared to peer cities, it is what it is.

As for FW, they don't even register compared to peer cities, it is what it is.

Which I find incredibly surprising, considering they have one of the most well-designed and active downtowns in the region.

I think your estimate for Fort Worth might be a little low, though I don't have hard data to support this. I'd be interested to see the definition of downtown being used. If it covers all area between the Trinity/Clear Fork and freeways, I'd be surprised.

The census tracts that cover that area had a population of 6,435 at the 2010 Census, using socialexplorer.com (http://www.socialexplorer.com/).

This came up in the Strawberry Fields C2S thread, but like I said there, I have always understood it as a hard rule of thumb that a city can support 1 to 5% of its metro population in the center city. I was asked in that thread to produce some stats on our peer cities, so this thread should serve as that. I'd encourage anyone who comes across such a stat or an article etc to share it in this thread.
Here's a few cities to start us off:

Dallas - I don't think is a fair apples-to-apples comparison


Yet you list Philadelphia.

I'm curious as to your reasoning.

Yet you list Philadelphia.

I'm curious as to your reasoning.

Yeah, I don't think he's been to Philly. It's huge. The city has 1.5 million people and the metro has over 7 million. Center City (downtown) has almost 200,000 residents.

Dallas doesn't really have rooftops downtown. The number I came across was not good, which I didn't think was representative of Dallas. Dallas is certainly cranking out urban housing units, just not downtown.

You can (please) list whatever cities you want, and swake please tell us all about Philly and your extensive travels ��

Dallas doesn't really have rooftops downtown. The number I came across was not good, which I didn't think was representative of Dallas. Dallas is certainly cranking out urban housing units, just not downtown.

You can (please) list whatever cities you want, and swake please tell us all about Philly and your extensive travels ��

Well Sparty my daughter lives there, the company I work for is based there, in fact my boss works out of that office, and I spent several years of my childhood living less than two hours away.

Well Sparty my daughter lives there, the company I work for is based there, in fact my boss works out of that office, and I spent several years of my childhood living less than two hours away.

Very nice, then I recommend the a.kitchen in Rittenhouse. Go for brunch. :)

I hear nearly 200,000 residents live nearby...

Dallas Center City Population (http://neighborhoods.dmagazine.com/dallas/central-dallas/):


Downtown - 13,041(90)
Uptown/Cityplace/Knox Park - 20,627
Deep Ellum - 2,621
Old East Dallas/Henderson (82)/Bryan Place/Junius Heights - 37,899
Design District - 1,932
Oak Lawn (86)/Turtle Creek - 31,933


The aforementioned neighborhoods are contiguous. Parentheses indicates Walk Score.

Dallas Center City Population (http://neighborhoods.dmagazine.com/dallas/central-dallas/):


Downtown - 13,041(90)
Uptown/Cityplace/Knox Park - 20,627
Deep Ellum - 2,621
Old East Dallas/Henderson/Bryan Place/Junius Heights - 37,899
Design District - 1,932
Oak Lawn/Turtle Creek - 31,933


The aforementioned neighborhoods are contiguous. Parentheses indicates Walk Score.

Surprised Deep Ellum is that low - I guess they're counting the large-scale infill toward the DART station as Old East Dallas?

Also, looking forward to watching the Design District explode. It's going to be exciting to watch unfold, thanks to your updates in the other thread.

Also, looking forward to watching the Design District explode. It's going to be exciting to watch unfold, thanks to your updates in the other thread.

Glad to do so.

I was just in downtown Indy 6 weeks ago, that number seems surprising. Are they counting the Massachusetts Ave area?

I was just in downtown Indy 6 weeks ago, that number seems surprising. Are they counting the Massachusetts Ave area?

Absolutely. Indy counts everything inside the inner beltway.

Indy is an interesting town. The downtown is really incredible... prob best mid-sized city downtown in Midwest... the rest of the city (80%) is surprisingly disinvested.

Totally agree with your comments Spartan about Indy. Lived in Indianapolis for 8 years when the DT renaissance was occurring. Truly transformed the DT area, but as you say the rest of the City has declined. I lived in NE Indy around E 38th Street which was a nice area but has since seen signifant decline. Indianapolis leadership made a conscious decision to change the perception of Indy from "Naptown" via Sports and Entertainment. Started with the Hoosier Dome, complete overhaul of the Government center , getting the Colts etc etc. Now as you said DT INDY is really great, but Indy as a whole has suffered

This is a few years old and doesn't really cite exactly how the data was obtained, but an interesting look at Midwestern cities.

http://allcolumbusdata.com/?p=1079

Your Dallas comments are so off base. I am not quite certain where you get your information, but Dallas has dozens of residential buildings with several thousand residents in its central business district. I sense a case of Dallas envy.

Your Dallas comments are so off base. I am not quite certain where you get your information, but Dallas has dozens of residential buildings with several thousand residents in its central business district. I sense a case of Dallas envy.

I'm not sure which post you're addressing, but the info above suggests Dallas' CBD has over 13,000 residents . . . That's not small, for the region and for Texas, specifically.

I wonder how that 6,000 number for Tulsa was figured? I thought downtown Tulsa was the Inner Dispersal Loop which had a 2010 population of 1,944 (not including the jail population). Perhaps Riverview to the south was added which brings the total to 4,564. Have those two areas seen that much growth since 2010 to add 1,500 residents?

The population of downtown Des Moines was 3,364 in 2010. Adding East Village (across the river) brings the total to 4,597.

I can do more later but the data will be from 2010.

I wonder how that 6,000 number for Tulsa was figured? I thought downtown Tulsa was the Inner Dispersal Loop which had a 2010 population of 1,944 (not including the jail population). Perhaps Riverview to the south was added which brings the total to 4,564. Have those two areas seen that much growth since 2010 to add 1,500 residents?

The population of downtown Des Moines was 3,364 in 2010. Adding East Village (across the river) brings the total to 4,597.

I can do more later but the data will be from 2010.

For the 2010 Census downtown Tulsa in the IDL was tract 25 was 3,980. I don’t know why any of the Tulsa Jail prisoners would be listed a residents in that tract, they are not permanently living there, it’s not a prison, it’s a short term jail. Who fills out their census form from jail as living in jail?

The Uptown area which includes the Riverview neighborhood is tracts 31 and 32 with 2,620 and 1,511 people. Traditionally these areas are part of downtown Tulsa, Uptown was cut off from the rest of downtown when the south leg of IDL was built in the early 1980s. There are lots of midrise and even high rise buildings there. It’s actually where most of downtown’s high rise apartments are. When I lived in Uptown in the 90s it was still called downtown. The name “Uptown” didn’t exist until 10-15 years ago.

So the total “downtown” population for Tulsa was 8,111 in 2010, which would be in that “mile 1” stat from the article posted earlier. Since 2010 something like 800 housing units have been added downtown so Tulsa should be close to 10,000 people downtown now with between 5,000 and 6,000 in the IDL itself.

^ Thanks for that. The jail population is included with the 3,980 number, however. Using this website http://justicemap.org/ you can get down to the block level for population (which uses 2010 Census data in this instance), and 2,036 is recorded for Tulsa County Jail which is how I got 1,944 for the IDL. Including census tracts 31 and 32 brings the population to 6,075. Homeless shelters also record population data, but I didn't exclude those numbers simply because I just don't know whether to or not.

^ Thanks for that. The jail population is included with the 3,980 number, however. Using this website http://justicemap.org/ you can get down to the block level for population (which uses 2010 Census data in this instance), and 2,036 is recorded for Tulsa County Jail which is how I got 1,944 for the IDL. Including census tracts 31 and 32 brings the population to 6,075. Homeless shelters also record population data, but I didn't exclude those numbers simply because I just don't know whether to or not.

It makes no logical sense that the census would include city/county jail populations, but then that does make the numbers tie.

I personally would include homeless shelters in the population counts, they do not have another home somewhere else where they should be counted.

It makes no logical sense that the census would include city/county jail populations, but then that does make the numbers tie.

I personally would include homeless shelters in the population counts, they do not have another home somewhere else where they should be counted.

What Tulsa did here is like a text book example of bad urban planning.

In the early 1980s Tulsa built the south leg of the IDL which cut off the southernmost part of downtown. The side tied to the CBD to the north now has a barrier between it and the healthy residential areas south of the highway. Over the ensuing 30+ years most of the residential on the north side of the IDL dies and becomes surface parking lots serving the CBD, a parking crater, one of the worst in the nation. South of the IDL the exact same kind of housing stock remains in use and healthy to this day, probably due to its location right next to the healthy and desirable midtown area.

It's a very good thing that around that same time the state was blocked from building an Interstate Highway where Riverside Drive/Parkway is today.

Jail populations are included in other group housing facilities including fraternities, elderly homes, convents, etc. The Census counts where you reside on January 1 (I think).

^ The above poster (welcome to OKC Talk btw) who once again implied I have something against Dallas - I don't, count me as a fan. I also have nothing against Philly, Tulsa, or any other city that anyone may come at me with. Just posting numbers, not trying to get into debates over this, as I've already stated the obvious issues with data quality on these self-reported population counts (usually by Downtown BIDs). The 1-mile increments make a lot more sense for comparing apples to apples.

If you google "downtown dallas population" you'll get 6,074. The below links all say 7,000 to 7,500. That's the number I decided against including, bc I figured it wasn't really fair or representative.

https://www.bisnow.com/dallas-ft-worth/news/multifamily/Whats-the-Downtown-Dallas-Population-17727

http://www.dallas-ecodev.org/redevelopment/expanded-downtown/

http://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-home/2012/july-august/downtown-dallas-yes-it-is-a-neighborhood/

That's four sources that all say 6-8,000. I promise you anyone doing site/market analysis does not have the time to research any deeper . Time is money.