I think a reasonable compromise/starting point is a demo permit contingent upon sale and funding of the new development.

Some old buildings can be saved, some can't.

More accurately, they all can be saved, just some require significantly more resources and work to do it.

Centuries old buildings have been saved at a cost exponentially higher than it would cost to save a 60 year old church. But that's more a product of the value a community places on its history and / or the viability of the market.

More accurately, they all can be saved, just some require significantly more resources and work to do it.

Centuries old buildings have been saved at a cost exponentially higher than it would cost to save a 60 year old church. But that's more a product of the value a community places on its history and / or the viability of the market.

No I get it. But one of the founding principles of this country is property rights, people within reason should have the right to do what they want with their property. A MAPS closing fund is a good idea.

The city has shown zero interest or even openness to the idea of acquiring properties outside of downtown and blighted area of NE OKC.

It's never been brought up by anyone that I know of.


As I said, all that has to be done is to extend design overlays. They recently did this for the Lincoln corridor. Almost all of Classen Boulevard, for example, is outside any design review.

Design overlays require approval of a committee (and the related public process) for any significant exterior change, including demolition. It's a simple solution.

Just to level set, the property is still owned by the church. They have yet to sell it.

The decision to tear the building down was theirs because of maintenance costs. If someone had such a strong opinion about it, they've have had several (VERY VOCAL) years to do something about it. If someone is complaining now, it's years late and falling on deaf ears.

Given the situation, it's entirely possible that the church stays there for much longer now, and that it just looks different than it once did....ie, no formal sanctuary.

If someone wants it, it's now because they want a large plot of land and will have to make the right offer. Anything historic is really gone now.

Nah, that's silly. The church had been there since 1956. So that location was developed 66 years ago and not for "some density or busy commercial use". To suggest that anyone should have just expected it would one day be torn down for a gas station or some other "busy commercial use", and therefore shouldn't have bought a house there is just to ignore history and to place some weird expectation of clairvoyance on people who bought a house there in, say, the 80s. That part of Broadway wasn't even considered Interstate until 20 years after the church was built and that section of I-235 wasn't there until 1986. Most of those houses were built 50 years before that.



I'm not sure to which Edmonites or hotel(s) you are referring. So, can I ask when those houses were built relative to when that part of I-35 was completed in that area (if it helps I-35, was completed in OK in 1971, when Edmond had a population of about 16k) and what was torn down and rezoned to make way for the hotel(s)?

But the highway coming in pretty much kills any good reason the neighborhood has when it comes to more traffic or density. They lost those arguments with the highway now in place for many many years. I dont see how apartments could be any worse than the actual loud and traffic inducing highway. Any perceived negative effects from an apartment or big box retail would be negligible on nearby residents day to day life.

In Edmond Im talking about 35 between 2nd and 15th where Fox Lake residents, who live very close to an existing highway, walmart, sams, etc fought hotels for all the same dumb reasons most NIMBYs oppose something. Traffic, noise, trash even though the highway already brings all of that.

But the highway coming in pretty much kills any good reason the neighborhood has when it comes to more traffic or density. They lost those arguments with the highway now in place for many many years. I dont see how apartments could be any worse than the actual loud and traffic inducing highway. Any perceived negative effects from an apartment or big box retail would be negligible on nearby residents day to day life.

In Edmond Im talking about 35 between 2nd and 15th where Fox Lake residents, who live very close to an existing highway, walmart, sams, etc fought hotels for all the same dumb reasons most NIMBYs oppose something. Traffic, noise, trash even though the highway already brings all of that.

traffic moving by on 235 is much different then increased traffic on 36th

Not much traffic on 36th after you pass western going east, the only business is Iron Star. I drive on NW36th a lot as I live right by it.

No I get it. But one of the founding principles of this country is property rights, people within reason should have the right to do what they want with their property. A MAPS closing fund is a good idea.

I would just say that the "within reason" part is exactly what we're discussing at this point.

In Edmond Im talking about 35 between 2nd and 15th where Fox Lake residents, who live very close to an existing highway, walmart, sams, etc fought hotels for all the same dumb reasons most NIMBYs oppose something. Traffic, noise, trash even though the highway already brings all of that.

As far as I can tell, that development was done between 1985 and 1995. So, that part of I-35 was there for at least 10+ years before those homes were built.

Funding for the interstate highway system wasn't even passed until 1956. This church was completed that same year. These neighborhoods were built 20 years before that. Walmart wasn't even founded until about 30 years after these neighborhoods were built.

I guess don't understand the idea that the expectations of homeowners in a 90 year old neighborhood that was built decades before any of the stuff you're talking about existed should be the same as homeowners who bought a house built in a different area decades after all of that stuff existed. It's just two totally different situations, imo.

Rezoning is a public process.

It's silly to fault people who own homes for not wanting to participate in that process.

Most times, there are compromises reached through the new owners and neighbors sitting down together. Usually, the Planning Commission rep for the ward involved helps arbitrate.

In Ward 2, that would be Janis Powers who has assisted in similar processes for several developments including OAK and generally does a great job purely as a volunteer.


The process is in place for a reason and it generally works. Decrying people who are merely participating in the public process is the opposite of democracy.

Does the church own all of that land? Jewel box theater and the small outdoor/amphitheater?

If so that is a lot of land and a lot could be done with it but no way a big box retailer would get approved you have to go north of 44 before you see walmart and old navy and whatever else is near that area.

I love that area and all the local businesses in the vicinity from uptown 23rd, Paseo, western ave, and shartel and nw 50th which has a CVS but I don't consider cvs and walgreens as big box retailers.

Yes, the church owns the entire plot.

The creek can either be a nice addition to whomever ends up here, or a problem to have to work around.

As i said, the Regional Offices (south east corner) are leaving. So that building will be able to be torn down as well without affecting any tenants.

BUT, if removing the maintenance burden of the sanctuary allows the church to last here, then all of this discussion is moot. Time will tell how that goes. It's very difficult for a church with such low attendance, to financially support the requirements here. But they also don't have enough pressure yet to undersell themselves. With the amount they raise from selling, they can either move themselves to a smaller location and remodel it, they can fund outreach programs, they can gift to a congregation they may decide as a group to merge with. But underselling isn't in anyone's interests.

I see this as a long journey.

17671

In Ward 2, that would be Janis Powers .

IMHO she is very thoughtful and fair in all of her votes and actions on that committee ..

traffic moving by on 235 is much different then increased traffic on 36th

This is a totally valid distinction.

And since this ultimately has a political element, I think that will be a big factor. It still may not be politically tenable to use government intervention in OKC to protect architecturally significant, but financial unproven, commercial assets from being town down, but I think most will at least be sympathetic to homeowners who are resisting the prospect of a development having the potential to increase traffic on their street 3, 4, maybe 5 times what it currently is.

Even with the Fox Lake comparison, those developments on I-35 increase(d) traffic on the I-35 service road, not in the Fox Lake development directly. Anything built here will be IN the neighborhood, sharing the same streets. There are houses that are literally across the street from it, sharing the same access to their home with whatever is there.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/firstchristian100222a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/firstchristian100222b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/firstchristian100222c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/firstchristian100222d.jpg

Sickening

Every city needs a competent chief architect, who has great vision, if we leave everything in the hands of developers, it's a gamble, many developers are just builders.

Every city needs a competent chief architect, who has great vision, if we leave everything in the hands of developers, it's a gamble, many developers are just builders.

Youre putting a little too much faith in an architect. Plenty of examples of architect driven developments that have been a flop or simply arent functional.

Youre putting a little too much faith in an architect. Plenty of examples of architect driven developments that have been a flop or simply arent functional.

Hence I mentioned the word "competent," those people aren't easy to find, especially in OKC.

I. M. Pei did a great job haha

I assume Oklahoma and Oklahoma City have very competent architects. We do have universities that teach those kinds of things.

I. M. Pei did a great job haha

Great, now we know we should pick someone who is even better than Pei.

I. M. Pei did a great job haha

Pei did a great job. Scholarly work evaluating demos with a plan to replace. After he was done, city officials ran with demo decisions without good evaluation or anything to replace demos. Hate that Pei is saddled with this myth.

Pei did a great job. Scholarly work evaluating demos with a plan to replace. After he was done, city officials ran with demo decisions without good evaluation or anything to replace demos. Hate that Pei is saddled with this myth.

:yeahthat::iagree::yeahthat::iagree:

Pei did a great job. Scholarly work evaluating demos with a plan to replace. After he was done, city officials ran with demo decisions without good evaluation or anything to replace demos. Hate that Pei is saddled with this myth.

He convinced the city that we needed to get caught up in this urban renewal process that involved demo on the large scale. I'm still pissed that the Biltmore is gone. Better planning could have put the Myriad Gardens in a different arrangement. Half of his plans fell through and we were left with a shell of what was promised. A "great job" is not what a lot of people feel he did. A lot of us feel he contributed to lost history that cannot be replaced. If we all thought the way he did, then all of Bricktown should have been dozed over in the late 80's and we should have just called it "done".

A lot of us feel he contributed to lost history that cannot be replaced.

With the demolition of the church, I'm pretty convinced that we care very little about history nowadays, so it's understandable that history wasn't a huge deal back in the days, let knock them all down and build 20 story glass towers.

We had plenty of time to find a solution for the church (or even the Gold Dome) but didn't do much (I know some people put up a fight, but the rest of us were just sat, talked, and waited for someone to do something). The city has no vision, how about acquiring that land and turn it into a urban park (now or later), every MAPS, there's tons of money set aside for parks, throw 10 mil in here, or how about the mayor, city councilmen, with all the connections, could try to ask big donors to chip in some money, or even run a campaign to ask for public contribution, no they don't have a clue. The old school admin building on Klein will come down soon, not many people care or try to do something right now, then the day it comes down, people will jump out of their couches and start screaming, AGAIN.

He convinced the city that we needed to get caught up in this urban renewal process that involved demo on the large scale. I'm still pissed that the Biltmore is gone. Better planning could have put the Myriad Gardens in a different arrangement. Half of his plans fell through and we were left with a shell of what was promised. A "great job" is not what a lot of people feel he did. A lot of us feel he contributed to lost history that cannot be replaced. If we all thought the way he did, then all of Bricktown should have been dozed over in the late 80's and we should have just called it "done".

Did Pei have complete autonomy and governance over those who were supposed to implement his plans (aka OKC)? Pretty sure he didn't control the city, so he can't really be responsible for OKC doing what they've done ever since - tear sh!t down and don't build anything decent (or at all) in its place. OKC is pretty much wholly responsible for the damage done, since if they would've followed through with his plan it would've been a whole different downtown (maybe not as historical, but wouldn't have had empty lots for decades and a dead downtown).

To blame Pei is absurd and lacks understanding and context. As one of the world’s greatest architects and developer he was hired to do a job and did it. Failure to execute is all onOKc officials and the changes in federal government resources and plans of urban renewal.

I once was at a family gathering attended by an in-law who was an nfl QB at the time. He was playing with the kids in the backyard as they all wanted to catch passes from him. Guess who the kids blamed when they didn’t catch the pass. lol. That’s what the okc kids do… blame Pei for their clumsiness and lack of ability to execute the simplest of plans.

Pei did a great job. Scholarly work evaluating demos with a plan to replace. After he was done, city officials ran with demo decisions without good evaluation or anything to replace demos. Hate that Pei is saddled with this myth.
I agree and it’s not fair to say he is responsible for anything that happened in OKC given the city half assedly implemented his plan. Either they should have kept all the historic buildings or went all the way. If you looked at models of what they had planned for downtown OKC it would have been incredible if they went through with it including the proposed monorail system.

Instead they chose the worst possible decision and here we are. Even in the last decade we’ve torn out so many historic buildings in the C2S in the name of urban renewal, mid century icons like the Founders Building for a gas station, tearing out buildings like the Harvester or Film Exchange for a convention center that could have been built elsewhere or a park that could have been built around the buildings, tearing down all the buildings they did for the boring glass box next to the Devon center, or an internationally renowned piece of architecture for a basketball court. There’s more but you get the point. OKC just doesn’t get it. The city council just shows time and time again they don’t care by their inaction. So Pei isn’t to blame.

I live very close to this area and I’m glad to see this building go it was never going to be renovated into anything and keeping a church building around because it was built a long time ago is stupid despite the architecture

Architects can create designs from any period in time and that gold dome needs to go next nobody wants to invest in that dumpster fire

Saying that Pei was a world class architect and also missed the mark with his urban plan for okc can both be true at the same time.

Saying that Pei was a world class architect and also missed the mark with his urban plan for okc can both be true at the same time.
He didn’t plan to tear it all down without resources to build it back.

To blame Pei is absurd and lacks understanding and context. As one of the world’s greatest architects and developer he was hired to do a job and did it. Failure to execute is all onOKc officials and the changes in federal government resources and plans of urban renewal.

I once was at a family gathering attended by an in-law who was an nfl QB at the time. He was playing with the kids in the backyard as they all wanted to catch passes from him. Guess who the kids blamed when they didn’t catch the pass. lol. That’s what the okc kids do… blame Pei for their clumsiness and lack of ability to execute the simplest of plans.

Incorrect, same to The Travelers. The city leadership at that time, basically did give him that authority. Did he have it directly? No. But what Pei said, they did with very little questioning. If Pei said "condemn this lot", they did it. So it's misleading to say that just because he didn't have direct control of the city, that he wasn't such a major influence, that they so heavily relied on him for their decision making that he wasn't given a magic wand. Pei was far more than just an architect. Urban renewal is more than just throwing grand ideas on a model and walking away. And it's a gross misrepresentation of the events if you minimize Pei's influence.

He did design some fantastic structures over his career. OKC just happens to be one of those pieces of his career that did not live up to his promises.

He didn’t plan to tear it all down without resources to build it back.

The plan was completely flawed from the beginning. If you look at Pei's actual plan for OKC it's basically just an instruction book on what not to do to create a successful city center. It is a long list that includes a lot more than just demolishing a large portion of the existing buildings. From creating superblocks and proposing interior malls, to changing downtown streets to one way traffic, the plan was destined to fail from day one.

Incorrect, same to The Travelers. The city leadership at that time, basically did give him that authority. Did he have it directly? No. But what Pei said, they did with very little questioning. If Pei said "condemn this lot", they did it. So it's misleading to say that just because he didn't have direct control of the city, that he wasn't such a major influence, that they so heavily relied on him for their decision making that he wasn't given a magic wand. Pei was far more than just an architect. Urban renewal is more than just throwing grand ideas on a model and walking away. And it's a gross misrepresentation of the events if you minimize Pei's influence.

He did design some fantastic structures over his career. OKC just happens to be one of those pieces of his career that did not live up to his promises.

You just don't get it. Yes, he said "do this", but he also said "do this, *then* do that" and he had no control over them following up and doing "that", which they never did. He had influence, but nothing more than that, it was left to OKC to IMPLEMENT (or not, as the case ended up) his ideas, and even if it could be considered a flawed plan, it was never fully IMPLEMENTED.

I have some info regarding the church. My family had been members for many decades, and my sister and her in-laws were members as well. She and her husband had been part of those that helped in the operation of the church. The problem was the lack of money due to factors such as many folks moving away from the area, the aging (and dying) of members, combined with the rising overall costs of maintenance.

In the past couple of days I had a conversation with her regarding all this. Church membership had been slowly dropping for many years. Utility costs were so high every month, especially the heat/air and the electricity, the decision was made to move all the activities to the Youth Center behind the main building, and leave it locked up.

Selling the building had its own issues. Not only would the property and the building price be high, but because the build had been built in the '50's, it would have to be brought up to current code for plumbing and electrical issues. But that's not all. During the original construction, asbestos was used all over the building, particularly the section with the metal shades (called the Education Center). So the costs of bringing it all up to code plus the asbestos removal would have been astronomical for any prospective buyer making it not worth it. I got the impression that's there's more to it than what she told me, but I didn't press for it. I did go over there and grab a few pics of the interior now that the sanctuary (the Egg Dome) is gone.

You just don't get it. Yes, he said "do this", but he also said "do this, *then* do that" and he had no control over them following up and doing "that", which they never did. He had influence, but nothing more than that, it was left to OKC to IMPLEMENT (or not, as the case ended up) his ideas, and even if it could be considered a flawed plan, it was never fully IMPLEMENTED.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the amount of his influence.

As of this morning, the rest of this complex has been flattened, including the round office building (center) and the small round structure (right) that was formerly home to Jewel Box theater. Photo taken 10/2/22; too depressed to take a new one.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/firstchristian100222c.jpg

As of this morning, the rest of this complex has been flattened, including the round office building (center) and the small round structure (right) that was formerly home to Jewel Box theater. Photo taken 10/2/22; too depressed to take a new one.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/firstchristian100222c.jpg

I was out there this morning as they brought down the Jewel Box. Got to see a lot of faces I hadn't seen in a while. It was a sad affair, and we all just kept saying we never thought we'd see this day. There was a drone operator out there, and I thought it might have been you Pete. I was this close to introducing myself but I have no idea what you look like and didn't want to be weird :D

17704

I was out there this morning as they brought down the Jewel Box. Got to see a lot of faces I hadn't seen in a while. It was a sad affair, and we all just kept saying we never thought we'd see this day. There was a drone operator out there, and I thought it might have been you Pete. I was this close to introducing myself but I have no idea what you look like and didn't want to be weird :D

17704

Ha! It wasn't me but I did see it going down.

Egg Shaped Christian Church site will be developed into housing.

Developer Ron Bradshaw is under contract to buy the former First Christian Church campus and is planning to convert the property into housing.

Source NewsOK
Check out this article from The Oklahoman:

Property once home to egg-shaped First Christian Church will get new life as housing

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2024/02/13/former-first-christian-church-property-okc-to-become-housing/72513828007/

129 residential lots on 31.5 acres

I know this will make the neighbors happy but feels like a big missed opportunity

129 residential lots on 31.5 acres

I know this will make the neighbors happy but feels like a big missed opportunity

Definitely.

At least there's going to be some townhomes but it's a shame it isn't a more dense plan.

Maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised by the site design.

For anyone who can't read the article, it sounds like the intention is to preserve 14 of the 32 acres for greenspace and the brook that runs through there. So the 129 homes would go on 18 acres, for an overall ~7 du/acre. Proposed townhomes toward NW 36th and Walker. That's a bit denser than the homes north of Crown Heights Park but solidly denser than the homes immediately to the north of this property. I still think it is a missed opportunity for something more mixed- and higher-use, but it sounds like there was (unsurprisingly) already rumors and resistance in the neighborhood to that sort of plan.

^

Almost any development of this size has to set aside good chunks for water flow and retention and that was always a given here due to the topography.

The developer might like to characterize this as "preservation" but the reality is that it was always going to be necessary as any previous concepts for this site have shown.


Nothing against Ron Bradshaw or his plans, but this is another one of those articles that only includes what the developer wants printed.

I've mentioned this several times before, but when you see a developer go to the Oklahoman in advance of planning documents being filed (which they mention is to happen next week), it's to get out ahead of the news and get something in the press that promotes their agenda.

129 residential lots on 31.5 acres

I know this will make the neighbors happy but feels like a big missed opportunity

Why do you think it is a missed opportunity? The previous plans (I think Humphreys) with more density were shot down, right?

Why do you think it is a missed opportunity? The previous plans (I think Humphreys) with more density were shot down, right?

There are lots of gradients between the quite dense Grant Humphreys proposal (17 years ago) and the equivalent of 1/4 acre residential lots with zero commercial.

It's a gorgeous, large property near the core that will now be not much different than a housing tract in Edmond.


And BTW, I don't believe the Humphreys proposal was ever shot down. I think it was more the case of him not electing to close on the property due to the vocal opposition of nearby homeowners after he reached out to them.

BTW, the northeast corner of NW 36th and Walker (part of this tract) is zoned commercial which is not surprising given the amount of commercial and industrial that exists on NW 36th.

The rest is zoned R-1 so this Bradshaw development may not need to even rezone and thus completely bypass the need to placate the surrounding homeowners.


They will probably file for a SPUD but then can also argue on their own behalf: we are essentially following the zoning that has been in place for decades. And if the SPUD approval goes south, they can probably still execute their plan under the existing zoning.

It’ll be interesting to see 129 new homes sandwiched right in the middle of some of the most desirable single family home stock in the metro. You have to assume they’ll be well designed to fit within the area and not a suburban style neighborhood

It’ll be interesting to see 129 new homes sandwiched right in the middle of some of the most desirable single family home stock in the metro. You have to hope they’ll be well designed to fit within the area and not a suburban style neighborhood

fify

Given the expense of the land and only 129 homes, the houses are likely to be quite expensive to recoup sunk costs.

I bet nothing in this development will be less than $1 million by the time they hit the market.

If there are some townhomes, maybe you sneak in under $900K.

Gah, this is such a bummer. I live in this neighborhood and was really hoping for an awesome mixed use development.

Gah, this is such a bummer. I live in this neighborhood and was really hoping for an awesome mixed use development.

They could have developed a pretty cool mixed use around the old buildings but there wasn't enough vision, passion, and money.

What's hard to understand unless you've actually hiked through this property is that the only place where there are bordering homes -- a total of 17 along the north side -- there is a significant creek with large trees on both sides. And those homes all have large, deep lots.

So, even if you walk along the creek, you don't even see the homes, which means they couldn't see anything that would be built on this property -- unless you are talking about 5+ story buildings situated close to the creek.

What's hard to understand unless you've actually hiked through this property is that the only place where there are bordering homes -- a total of 17 along the north side -- there is a significant creek with large trees on both sides. And those homes all have large, deep lots.

So, even if you walk along the creek, you don't even see the homes, which means they couldn't see anything that would be built on this property -- unless you are talking about 5+ story buildings situated close to the creek.

I bet it was more business decision than concern of overcoming objections with the community. They probably stand to make great profit in a relatively short period of time, where a commerical/rental component takes longer to recoup. It would be an interesting area for a bit of mixed use, but honestly, it's probably for the best. This just means ~200 more people with high incomes being available to go to Paseo, Uptown, Western, Plaza.

I bet it was more business decision than concern of overcoming objections with the community. They probably stand to make great profit in a relatively short period of time, where a commerical/rental component takes longer to recoup. It would be an interesting area for a bit of mixed use, but honestly, it's probably for the best. This just means ~200 more people with high incomes being available to go to Paseo, Uptown, Western, Plaza.

Not buying that. Building and selling homes can sometimes take longer to get a return than a commercial development. Just look at The Hill to see how its not so easy to build and sell relatively expensive homes. I'd guaranty they're proposing homes because its the path of least resistance. Not hard for a few highly motivated NIMBYs to round up opposition among neighbors and delay and ultimately crater a commercial development.

It is disappointing, this being at a highway interchange with good demographics screamed commercial/mixed use development. But, even though they live adjacent to a loud highway, a starbucks would have totally ruined the neighborhood I guess...

Even though I am known as "Mesta Parker" on this board (used to live there) I now live in Edgemere Heights and would have much preferred a mixed use development to housing. Many neighbors feel the same. Sure, there likely would be increased traffic in the area, but the convenience of closer retail would have been worth it. Pete is right, the creek and Crown Heights park completely insulates Edgemere Heights and most of Crown Heights. However, the folks on 37th and 38th streets in Crown Heights would be directly across the street.

^

There is only one home in Crown Heights that borders this property, and even that is separated by Walker.


As OKC grows and becomes more dense, this problem keeps coming up over and over: how much influence do you allow to a group of people who merely live in the general area?

Even though I am known as "Mesta Parker" on this board (used to live there) I now live in Edgemere Heights and would have much preferred a mixed use development to housing. Many neighbors feel the same. Sure, there likely would be increased traffic in the area, but the convenience of closer retail would have been worth it. Pete is right, the creek and Crown Heights park completely insulates Edgemere Heights and most of Crown Heights. However, the folks on 37th and 38th streets in Crown Heights would be directly across the street.

I used to live on 37th street, and there's been a lot of change over the last few years with the older generation moving out and younger families moving in. I know we were all excited about the potential of a mixed use development, but a high price point development will only help the home values there too.