Not sure they’ll actually do it but it seems like they could easily add the large LED screen in the future but will the stadium be designed to be expanded and include upper seating?

Based on the renderings that Pete posted, that doesn't appear likely... the roof is too low to permit easy upward expansion to create an upper bowl, from what it looks like.

Well, yeah. But, I think the real reason they "eliminated" the connection is because they have bigger plans. Obviously, can't ask for that all in one project.

It's eliminated because of cost. The graphic states estimated cost 83M, but they're only getting 63M from MAPS 4, plus they stole 9M from MAPS 3, so they only have 72M to work with.

My guess is they'll go after any MAPS 4 excess funds to get it built (the connector), but they won't have any way to add back the seats they removed.

I think the text in the update above is incorrect. It says a reduction in capacity for basketball, but that's really the max permanent seating arrangement. Anything that includes floor seats is just fake capacity. I'm missing how the full 8000 is a reduction.

I'm also not missing the "second floor" since it was just expensive wasted space. There really wasn't any meaningful seating there. Was it really worth the extra millions?

I think the text in the update above is incorrect. It says a reduction in capacity for basketball, but that's really the max permanent seating arrangement. Anything that includes floor seats is just fake capacity. I'm missing how the full 8000 is a reduction.

That article provides a link to the original plan (top) contrasted to the current plan (bottom).

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairarena111821a.jpg

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairarena111821b.jpg

Hm, that's weird because then that means the old materials dont agree with themselves. It was originally an 8500 seat arena, and then they wanted to say it went up to 9300 for basketball?

Well either way, im' not sure losing that upper deck is that much of a loss though. Seems like a lot of cash for not much gain....at least to me.

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/07/30/NOKL/2626c1ac-488e-42c2-b9df-92a211caa3d0-Rendering_-_New_Coliseum_Approach_Day_5-14-21.jpg?crop=3823,2151,x16,y0&width=3200&height=1801&format=pjpg&auto=webp


“Fantastic for the tourism industry,” 10-year deal inked to keep quarter horse championships at Oklahoma State Fairgrounds: https://kfor.com/news/local/fantastic-for-the-tourism-industry-10-year-deal-inked-to-keep-quarter-horse-championships-at-oklahoma-state-fairgrounds/


The new fairgrounds coliseum and updates to Paycom Center will be the first projects to begin construction using MAPS 4 money, but most projects will receive money for planning purposes next year, according to a proposed implementation plan to be voted on next month.--Oklahoman, July 1, 2021

MAPS 4 Fairgrounds Coliseum: https://www.okc.gov/government/maps-4/fairgrounds-coliseum


The current fairgrounds arena has the largest economic impact of all publicly-owned facilities in OKC, according to a presentation the State Fair made to the city in July.

Other projects that will be aided by the MAPS 3 surplus will be the allocation of $9 million to the Fairgrounds Coliseum approved in December as part of MAPS 4. --Velocity, May 27, 2020 https://www.velocityokc.com/blog/inside-okc/maps-3-surplus-funds-will-aid-in-additional-capital-improvements/?back=super_blog

Note: Total $63 million increased to $72 million. Estimated cost of the new SFC between $93 million - $100 million.

Schedule:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds121321a.jpg

Considering they got a head start on funding (in the millions of dollars) it seems crazy that by Aug 2022 they're just reviewing final plans, so, like a year and a half to get final plans after being awarded millions, what did they do with that money?

Considering they got a head start on funding (in the millions of dollars) it seems crazy that by Aug 2022 they're just reviewing final plans, so, like a year and a half to get final plans after being awarded millions, what did they do with that money?

Sits in a bank & collects interest...lol

free money...

$100M sitting in a .50% interest bank account will yield $500,000 month. So the longer it sits in a bank, the more free money they get. So yea, they will drag it out...always been like this.

And with the rate of inflation, increases in construction costs will significantly outpace the rate that “free money” is coming in.

This project received $9 million from MAPS 3.

$100M sitting in a .50% interest bank account will yield $500,000 month. So the longer it sits in a bank, the more free money they get. So yea, they will drag it out...always been like this.

$500,000/year*

Update on plans and schedule:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds032122a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds032122b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds032122c.jpg


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http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds032122n.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds032122o.jpg

So there's a basement with nothing going on or am I misreading that?

What is shown underground are piles driven into the earth to support the arena structure.

So phase 4 calls for a temporary connector, parking lot, and sod where old arena is. So it seems likely, the state fair's future plans is to eventually extend the super barn out all the way to new arena at some point in the future.

So phase 4 calls for a temporary connector, parking lot, and sod where old arena is. So it seems likely, the state fairs future plans is to eventually extend the super barn out all the way to new arena at some point in the future.

Originally, they planned to include a holding barn in that spot, but it was removed due to the budget.

https://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena14.jpg

don't worry, they'll find a way to screw another project down the line to get the barn

don't worry, they'll find a way to screw another project down the line to get the barn

No need to be pious. The fairgrounds have a major, major impact on this city, not even including the hotel and motel taxes and increased sales taxes from people attending the events there.

In all honesty, the arena should be bigger than it is. That should be the argument.

don't worry, they'll find a way to screw another project down the line to get the barn

This.

No need to be pious. The fairgrounds have a major, major impact on this city, not even including the hotel and motel taxes and increased sales taxes from people attending the events there.

In all honesty, the arena should be bigger than it is. That should be the argument.

No disagreement. It should be bigger, it brings in money. That's not the issue.

State Fair Coliseum should have a minimum permanent seating capacity of 10,000. They should double the capacity of this arena with 6,000 lower bowl seats and an upper deck capable of adding 4,000+ portable or retractable seats.

This coliseum should also have an ice plant where it is capable of hosting ice hockey, ice skating events & basketball. Increase the budget for this venue to $125 million.

Hope the committee reconsider the inadequate capacity and exercise the full potential of a State Fair Coliseum.

This current bowl seating design looks like the old Stockyard Coliseum built in the 1930s and it seats less.

should be bigger, especially considering the city's contribution (as usual) and the supposed impact the fairgrounds generate.

So why was this lowballed?

Materials prices.

don't worry, they'll find a way to screw another project down the line to get the barn

So you’re saying they left the barn door open for it to be built in the future?

They aren't wasting any time...

Just filed the complete set of building applications for this project.

Good news for a new coliseum that will provide an economic boost in retaining all of the horse shows to renew their contracts in Oklahoma City.

Good for the small school basketball championships. I know they love the “big house” but it is time to upgrade. The fairgrounds is a great central spot for this tournament. On another note if the bricktown stadium ever comes to fruition it’s a fantastic spot for high school championship football.

Pete, are these plans consistent with the complete set of applications being filed:




http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairarena111521a.jpg
https://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=761-Plans-for-new-state-fair-arena-revised

Eliminated from previously disclosed plans: an upper level of seating and a small horse/livestock arena between the existing barns and the new facility, along with more barn and multi-purpose space.

Seating capacity would be reduced by 1,354 for basketball and 1,682 for concerts.

The construction would occur in such a way that the existing Norick Arena would remain operational until the new facility is complete, then it would be demolished.

sorry, but I'm sure it's been lowballed to exclusively, solely use the MAPS funds and not any of the 'supposedly' massive revenue the fairgrounds generates/takes in.

sorry, but I'm sure it's been lowballed to exclusively, solely use the MAPS funds and not any of the 'supposedly' massive revenue the fairgrounds generates/takes in.

Probably so, however IIRC this project is tied to the hotel room taxes, therefore it will have a continuous revenue stream.

It doesn't _seem_ like that supposed continuous revenue stream was used to keep the existing arena (or the other now demolished features of the fairgrounds) in good shape or to do very many if any renovations/expansions over the years. As one of the few entities that has its own revenue streams, it sure takes a lot of money from other projects that don't have their own revenue streams and could sure use those funds.

^^ exactly my point shawn.

They sure seem to be showing up to the pork barrel every time there's a MAPS; despite their continuous revenue stream and supposed economic impact they generate. What are they using those funds for - because as shawn stated all we see is demolition of heritage facilities, lack of maintenance of the entire property, and nothing being updated without there being a civic initiative to fund all of the costs.

I'm not saying we shouldn't get a new arena or whatever, I am saying it is difficult for me to continue funding an organization that has no oversight and has burned OKC citizens time and time again with bait and switch projects that end up getting solely funded by MAPS - and built significantly smaller than initial renderings when they PROMISED to help fund, piss poor facilities, no expanded/paved parking, no modernization of the grounds (landscaping, lighting, access), removal of iconic heritage attractions, on and on. All with no oversight, nobody saying anything, and the same old tired excuse of them being such an economic generator for the city.

With their own funding source and impact, they could be doing at least some of these projects themselves. WRWA does. And don't give me this crap about the NBA - nobody said they were self funded or generate such a direct economic impact that they alone receive; unlike the fairgrounds who says this time and time, everytime they want a MAPS project (which is every single time).

You've also must consider how much of an economic impact the horse industry has on State Fair Park before you begin dismissing the Coliseum project and talking about Pork barrel. All the pork in that barrel mostly can be attributed to the out-of-state money the old State Fair Arena attracted. So don't go there...

We're building a coliseum that will keep those horse shows and events at the SFP for a longer term. The Bennett Events Center will be key to supporting the coliseum.

You have plenty of parking at the fairgrounds. We could use a parking garage on the site since there's already tons of surface parking.

Give something back to the community. The horse industry has a lot to do with the bulk of new money infused into the Oklahoma City's economy that is responsible for hotel room nights--that keeps pork in that barrel.

As for the NBA. Our City signed up for the NBA which includes two facilities--an arena and a practice facility, you can't separate to two.

An ownership group invested $350 million in 2008 to bring this franchise to OKC which puts our city on a different level than many of our competitive cities like Virginia Beach-Norfolk, Louisville, Birmingham & Richmond.

We (Citizens) voted to upgrade a bare bones arena and keep it competitive with other NBA facilities with the Thunder as anchor tenant--which supports and attracts top concerts and large gathering to our city. Now we have a new convention center and luxury hotel to support and attract top quality conventions for our tier level.

MAPS 4 $115 million supported a $105 million upgrade to Paycom Center and $10 million for the Integris Thunder practice facility.

The prestige of our city being among 30 NBA cities is good advertisement as to the direction our city continues to grow. You can't buy the weight of that advertising package coupled with the sponsors that support our NBA Oklahoma City Thunder--which includes the Tribes.

MAPS for HOOPS was an extension of an existing MAPS initiative supported (2010) arena upgrades. Being an NBA City is a bright feather in OKC's cap.

So, don't go there...

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMrQxjBWdIaFNB33HtI1UKoUxI7ZlI1 Vzyi3apOu5xj_mwUe9vRTFhoDkNYPgQzpEueXM&usqp=CAU

https://knowtechie.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/paycom-center-okc-1024x585.webp

https://www.sportstravelmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Screen-Shot-2019-08-23-at-10.37.17-AM.png

The new amenities and improvements are designed to enhance the guest experience at OKC Thunder games, as well at other live entertainment events. Initial improvements include $4 million to replace seats in the lower, middle and upper bowls in the arena.

The color of the new seats TBD. Bids TMK has not been sent out. It is estimated that new seating will cost $4 million.

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/07/30/NOKL/32788605-1a01-4f25-80a3-50f53be5a4a3-arena_entrance.jpg?crop=956,717,x156,y0&quality=50&width=640
Friendly amenities will make the Paycom Center better for guests with new seating and a balcony terrace.

You've also must consider how much of an economic impact the horse industry has on State Fair Park before you begin dismissing the Coliseum project and talking about Pork barrel. All the pork in that barrel mostly can be attributed to the out-of-state money the old State Fair Arena attracted. So don't go there...

We're building a coliseum that will keep those horse shows and events at the SFP for a longer term. The Bennett Events Center will be key to supporting the coliseum.

You have plenty of parking at the fairgrounds. We could use a parking garage on the site since there's already tons of surface parking.

Give something back to the community. The horse industry has a lot to do with the bulk of new money infused into the Oklahoma City's economy that is responsible for hotel room nights--that keeps pork in that barrel.

Larry, Im shocked you of all people are defending the state fare board. BTW - I never said we don't need to coluseum and we've heard ad nauseum how the fairgrounds brings economic this or that to the city. So. ... why are they not funding their projects? They initially said MAPS would fund only PART of the grand new arena, now - its the ONLY funding source and therefore has been downsized from what was originally pitched in the MAPS campaign.

This is what I'm talking about. They keep showing up for handouts yet have a dedicated funding source and still keep asking MAPS to find capital projects. Imagine if the OKC Zoo, also has a guaranteed revenue stream, if they asked for MAPS money to fully fund their new Africa exhibit. Wouldn't that invite scrutiny into how the zoo is run? Imagine if WRWA asked for MAPS funds to build the new terminal? In fact, I'd vote yes if they did - but WRWA is a funded entity so they build their OWN facilities for the most part and the new terminal received no MAPS funds.

And look at the fairgrounds. With a dedicated funding source and as such an economic generator - they can't modernize the parking nor can they even upkeep the grounds; let alone execute a state fair worthy of what we used to have when you and I were 30 years younger. They are a disappointment, yet nobody seems to care that they continually dip into the MAPS Pork Barrel.

And no, the pork in the barrel comes from the OKC taxpayers (and sales tax paying visitors) not from the horse industry. sorry.

That dedicated funding source didn't begin until April 1, 2020 the beginning of MAPS 4 collections. Don't have any idea as to how much money is in that dedicated source fund.

City recently approved $80 million into a MAPS 4 operating trust: https://www.okc.gov/Home/Components/News/News/4054/18

Realize that many of us got a bad taste thru the State Fair Board Trust. We eventually received those numbers which wasn't as robust as many had anticipated.

We definitely need this coliseum which was partially funded thru MAPS 4--that's why the hotel room sales tax was added as support. Hot Rod it wasn't my intentions to slight you or your thoughts--your contributions are valued and appreciated.


Crossroads Consulting, a nationally recognized expert in large public venue (LPV) consulting, found a new State Fair Park Coliseum would generate more than $230 million a year in direct spending and more than $400 million a year in total economic impact.

Study Shows Benefits of Replacing Jim Norick Arena: https://okcfairgrounds.com/new-coliseum/in-the-news/study-shows-benefits

Again, we're talking about the economic impact of the horse shows and affiliated events staged at SFP. This won't show up on any ledgers associated with the SFB Trust.

Only concerns with this coliseum's last design is the limited seating--slightly under 5,000. It will accommodate the horse shows that generally need about 2,500 seats on the average.

Anxious to see more on the applications submitted and final designs for this project.

Concerning WRWA, they operate on federal grants, revenue bond proceeds, oil and gas revenues, and operating revenues.

OKC Will Rogers World will receive $ 6,677,636 million and Tulsa International will receive $ 5,680,089 for improvement from the Biden Infrastructure bill. 133 public airports in Oklahoma will share $137 million from the Biden bipartisan infrastructure bill with the bulk of those funds going to WRWA and Tulsa International.

Wouldn't have any problems with MAPS funds being used for WRWA expansion and/or upgrades. We need more funding sources for our largest airport to develop more cargo and passenger amenities.

Larry, Im shocked you of all people are defending the state fare board. BTW - I never said we don't need to coluseum and we've heard ad nauseum how the fairgrounds brings economic this or that to the city. So. ... why are they not funding their projects? They initially said MAPS would fund only PART of the grand new arena, now - its the ONLY funding source and therefore has been downsized from what was originally pitched in the MAPS campaign.

This is what I'm talking about. They keep showing up for handouts yet have a dedicated funding source and still keep asking MAPS to find capital projects. Imagine if the OKC Zoo, also has a guaranteed revenue stream, if they asked for MAPS money to fully fund their new Africa exhibit. Wouldn't that invite scrutiny into how the zoo is run? Imagine if WRWA asked for MAPS funds to build the new terminal? In fact, I'd vote yes if they did - but WRWA is a funded entity so they build their OWN facilities for the most part and the new terminal received no MAPS funds.

And look at the fairgrounds. With a dedicated funding source and as such an economic generator - they can't modernize the parking nor can they even upkeep the grounds; let alone execute a state fair worthy of what we used to have when you and I were 30 years younger. They are a disappointment, yet nobody seems to care that they continually dip into the MAPS Pork Barrel.

And no, the pork in the barrel comes from the OKC taxpayers (and sales tax paying visitors) not from the horse industry. sorry.
The State Fair Board of Directors is comprised of 40 volunteer members. With people such as Ron Norick, Kirk Humphreys, Clay Bennett, David Rainbolt, Larry Nichols, etc. it reads like a veritable Who’s Who of central Oklahoma leadership. It is not a crooked, pork-barrel organization that operates in the dark.

^^^^^^^^
Thank you. Also, there is so much misunderstanding here regarding the economic impact generated by the fairgrounds. Very little of it is direct income to the fairgrounds itself; it is sales and room tax spent citywide by people frequenting fairgrounds events.

In fairness, a significant portion of the city’s room tax (paid by visitors, NOT by locals) DOES go to the fairgrounds, but frankly the massive citywide economic impact justifies that AND other investments such as MAPS funding. It’s similar to state film credits or historic preservation tax credits; if you can demonstrate 2x, 5x, 10x ROI for every public dollar spent, why WOULDN’T you be looking to invest even more?

That said, I totally get the complaints that the fairgrounds seems to occasionally edge out other worthy projects at the feeding trough, likely owing to the influence of its board. But I DO get why they push so hard. It’s one of the few public investments from which the City sees general tax revenue ROI that can in turn help fund everything else.

I would be with you on this completely IF they had also been good stewards of what WAS a pretty cool fairgrounds all things considered.

Let's take the canal as a for instance. I'm highly in favor of maintaining it, extending it, enhancing it. With minor exception it has been reasonably well kept up, so I don't mind putting more money into it. However, if it had been allowed to rot until the original span got so bad that it was just closed, but then more money was requested for an extension, I would be like, um, no. This is at the core of my beef. The fairgrounds is losing its luster as a PLACE for PEOPLE. I get and appreciate the economic engine our horse shows are, and DO want to maintain that, but not at the cost of its viability as a place for people. If we can't get that through our skulls perhaps we don't deserve the horse shows either.

Ask yourself, why wasn't the fairgrounds a place we took CNU attendees? Why couldn't it have been?

Ask yourself, why wasn't the fairgrounds a place we took CNU attendees? Why couldn't it have been?

Excuse me, what are CNU attendees...

There was a conference here in March with more than a thousand attendees, the Congress for New Urbanism. They were taken on a dozen different tours and not one was the fairgrounds.

CNU = Congress of New Urbanism. Thanks, Shawnw

There are plenty of places in Oklahoma City to entertain the CNU:


Bricktown
First Americans Museum (FAM)
Frontier City Amusement Park
Museum of Osteology
Myriad Botanical Gardens
Oklahoma City Museum of Art
Oklahoma City National Memorial
Oklahoma City Zoo
National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum
Science Museum Oklahoma (Omniplex)

The fairground despite its importance to OKC isn't considered a tourist attraction.

The conference had zero to do with tourism. It was about how we build our environments.

^^^^^^^
Meh, I have become resigned to the idea that the state fair as we remember it is only a warm, fuzzy memory and that this location now mainly serves as an expo center and economic driver. I too am bummed that the elements we used to love about the fairgrounds are gone, but they simply are. I don't think that what is left in its place requires an urbanist or placemaking approach, and I am saying this as an avowed urbanist.

It is what it is. And what it is absolutely PRINTS money to pay for the rest of the things we care about as citizens.

Guys, I k now that;s a list of who's who in OKC leading the fairgrounds trust, but the trust itself is not held to any accountability. You can't just say - well it's run by people we trust but yet there's no transparency in the organization itself, which is what we ahve today. And you also can't deny that they continually show up for MAPS with their pet projects (nothing inherently wrong with that actually) that are usually grand and include PARTIAL funding from MAPS; yet in reality get downsized AFTER the election so that MAPS becomes the main if not complete funding source.

I'm all for the fairgrounds to be part of maps, they are part of the OKC community and are an economic engine. But the fairgrounds has a dedicated funding source that other agencies do not. And the fairgrounds is not held to account like other agencies. And given their track record of bait and switch, these are the reasons why I call their actions Pork Barrel and shady, not so much for the people appointed to the trust but moreso for the leadership RUNNING the trust getting away with this time and time.

I wish WRWA would show up for MAPS - I'd love the full build-out of the E terminal and modernization of the rest of the central and West concourses for example; but they wont because they are properly run with the funding sources they have and implement projects as they are needed. I don't see why the fairgrounds, which gets MORE $$ from it's dedicated sources, can't be as fiscally responsible or at least disclose they they are not quite the revenue generator they claim to be.

March fairgrounds events generate $30.1M economic impact

By: Journal Record Staff April 12, 2022 0

The Oklahoma state high school basketball championships brought about 55,000 fans to the Oklahoma City Fairgrounds in March and generated an estimated $11.89 million in direct spending to benefit the local economy, organizers say. (Photo by Markus Spiske on Unsplash)

OKLAHOMA CITY (JR) – High school students and activities that played out at the OKC Fairgrounds in March generated millions of dollars in direct spending to benefit the local economy, fairgrounds officials reported this week.

Two events, especially, brought visitors and money to Oklahoma City from outside the area.

The Oklahoma state high school basketball championships, staged in the Jim Norick Arena at the fairgrounds March 3-12, attracted more than 55,000 fans. While officials reported 15% of them were from Oklahoma City or surrounding suburbs, 85% traveled to the city from other parts of the state.

According to a release, money spent by families of athletes and other fans had an estimated impact of $11.89 million on the metro economy.

The other event, which ran partially at the same time as the basketball tournament, was the Oklahoma Youth Expo. It attracted some 57,000 people to the Norick Arena and Barn Row March 8-18.

“This year, 212 exhibitors secured slots in the Sale of Champions. Additionally, a record-breaking $1.5 million was raised through the auction including the Grand Champion steer selling for over $100,000,” event organizers said in the release.

Some 65% of people who attended the Youth Expo arrived in Oklahoma City from out-of-town, while 35% were locals. The event generated more than $10.33 million in direct spending into the Oklahoma City economy.

The OKC Fairgrounds hosted a total of 13 events in March. Others included the OKC Auto Show, the Backwoods Hunting & Fishing Expo, the Repticon Reptile & Exotic Animal Convention, the OKC Home & Outdoor Living Show, and the Shrine Circus, among others.

In all, 192,122 event attendees were counted during the month of March. It’s believed that events generated more than $30.1 million in direct spending to benefit the Oklahoma City economy.

Good article from The Journal Record. Thanks for sharing GaryOKC6.

BTW, If you can't trust the State Fair Board Trust, then tell me who can you trust. Doubt if any of the members of the SFB Trust have any hidden agendas. Hope we can put this trusting the Trust to bed without any more MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING.

Who is on the state fair board? Why not have open meetings

We need a larger arena with seating for at least 8,000. The arena needs to be a multipurpose facility(not just a horse barn). Ice making equipment should be installed to accommodate ECHL hockey.

They have started some utility work to the south of the new arena site:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds050722a.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds050722b.jpg

On the daily KOSU podcast this morning they said costs have increased to over 100M.

There's also an Oklahoman article I just noticed with similar information, noting construction starts this fall, completes in 2024.

On the daily KOSU podcast this morning they said costs have increased to over 100M.

There's also an Oklahoman article I just noticed with similar information, noting construction starts this fall, completes in 2024.

Not surprising, since the cost of everything has increase astronomically the last year.

The final plans are in the process of being approved and are exactly as I last posted.

So, the rising costs won't change what gets built.

you mean not surprising since the city is paying for nearly all of this with MAPS 4 expedited funding and as Pete said, wont change what gets built (likely might even still get engineered downsized as a result of the "approvals", in the over-promise under-deliver game play).

The final plans are in the process of being approved and are exactly as I last posted.

So, the rising costs won't change what gets built.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena022619r.jpg

As i've said from the start of this, i fail to see how this is really an improvement from the current arena. Or see the point.