I saw the new arena in Fort Worth a few weeks ago and it is going to be truly magnificent. OKC stands to lose a huge amount of these shows when Ft. Worth decides to go after them. With all the other advantages the DFW area has, OKC has some significant work ahead of it and a new arena is essential.


I know it isnt an apples-to-apples comparison, but the Dallas Fairgrounds is head and shoulders above ours, IMHO. When we were down there for the OU-TX game we saw tree-lined streets, museums, amphitheaters, etc...
It seems like all we have done at our fairgrounds over the years is tear down/disable things, and not replace them (Grandstands, monorail, space needle, baseball field) The Bennett Events building wasnt an ADDITIONAL building, it just replaced another one.
The fairgrounds look almost abandoned when you drive by. Certain circles are talking about building a soccer/football/concert stadium at some point. I think the PERFECT place for it would be on the eastern side of the fairgrounds where the racetrack used to be.

I have to agree with Bomber here and it is what I have stated over and over since the fairgrounds always seems to show up for MAPs; we allowed them to destroy the grounds in favor of a single source to which they must have significant revenues to not only operate but to grow that said business. MAPS are not intended for operations nor maintenance but capital expenditure. Maps is also not intended for the same venue or site but for ADDITIONAL or additions to.

One might argue that the fairgrounds is a site similar to downtown, but I'd argue that we only built one downtown arena, one streetcar system, one city park (well, two but MGB is a different story) yet the fairgrounds has an Expo Building for horses, Barns for horses, and ect for YOU GUESSED IT horses. Not one additional amenity or venue has been added nor proposed; you know, that could make the fairgrounds more versatile along the lines of MAPS - a METROPOLITAN contributor.

I'd also argue that the downtown projects combine to add to the city's mission and are far more visible and valuable to the city than anything in the fairgrounds. The Fairgrounds board tore out the monorail, removed the space needle, demolished the race track, knocked down the Gateway Arch, plucked out All-Sports stadium . ... those were all venues of entertainment and/or culture that could have been worthy of MAPs for restoration and/or capital expense. I disagree with these monuments being used only during the 17-day which used to be 21-day but now is 14-day or less State Fair; it is the Fair board who chose to have them accessible only during the fair.

My question is why couldn't the fairgrounds continue to exist sprucing up what we had but ADD horse facilities to make the site a dense collection of venues and amenities that could be used by a number of industries/parties. ..

The Bennett Center is not a horse show arena, isn't connected to stalls, etc. If fact, last week it had a CBD Oil expo there....certainly not your horse crowd. It is a large expo area capable of hosting all kinds of events. And the arena hosts lots of non-horse events. If a new arena is built it certainly lets the Cox arena be deconstructed without a hole in our ability to host mid-sized popular events.

My biggest gripe is that there is ZERO landscaping. And, the facilities are big, but basic. Very utilitarian.

Rover, you pointed to two items that folks already have said, many times, were the ONLY improvements to the fair park that would be considered multi-functional. I and others pointed to the countless venues that were destroyed and the only rebuilt with MAPS money have been horse related.

As Trump would note, there is a huge 'trade' imbalance here and it has nothing to do with the lack of demand for non-horse uses at the park but everything to do with a fair board without accountability and an obvious vision for the park to be a mediocre developed trade show site that now has serious competitor likely to kill that mediocrity once and for all. These are facts, that HAVE happened.

I don't disagree with you regarding the arena (greatly aiding deconstruction of COX) and I'd very likely support that as a MAPS function. I also don't disagree with you that the Bennett Center provides great Exhibit space that doesn't otherwise exist in the city; even though as some have argued, we did have that space already; but I agree - maybe it was time for it to be rebuilt, rightfully so.

But why did we get rid of the othery destination-oriented venues at the same time only promoting the horse-show vision? Furthermore, why did we do the horse show vision 2nd class to begin with?

I'm not buying the maintenance $$ argument because most of those venues were long shuttered (to help expedite their decay from lack of operations, despite the demand that did/does exist), so what were they supposedly maintaining? Maintenance $$ goes into something that is in use. .. Im not buying it.

They removed the FAIR out of the fairpark IMO, turning it into a large, mediocre white elephant that's even today still living on OKC's history as a 'horse-show capital'.

The trend for athletic venues are to move them to downtown areas. Nationally attendance at State Fairs is declining. This country is getting less rural with every passing year and the interest in FFA events just is not what it was 20 years ago. Yeah the monorail was fun the first time, but after that, meh. The cars were incredibly hot and stuffy and for what? Times are a changing and a big chunk of this land could be repurposed for something more beneficial than horse shows. I'm not suggesting eliminating the facilities for the ponies but repurposing the area outside of this. Nostalgia does not cut it.

The trend for athletic venues are to move them to downtown areas. Nationally attendance at State Fairs is declining. This country is getting less rural with every passing year and the interest in FFA events just is not what it was 20 years ago. Yeah the monorail was fun the first time, but after that, meh. The cars were incredibly hot and stuffy and for what? Times are a changing and a big chunk of this land could be repurposed for something more beneficial than horse shows. I'm not suggesting eliminating the facilities for the ponies but repurposing the area outside of this. Nostalgia does not cut it.

http://yogisden.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/10047358415_509360d2ba.jpg http://www.skylinescenes.com/image?filename=tulsa_61_9488_up.jpg&width=580&height=0

That seems to be the case; however The Tulsa State Fair didn't get that memo.

Found this on the internet - The Biggest State Fairs in the United States: https://www.readers.com/blog/biggest-state-fairs/

Los Angeles has the largest county fair with 1.5 million annual visitors.

I use this example every time i talk about the Bennet Center and why its a failure. Right there in that picture above, you'll see Tulsa's Expo Square. Ever been in side? One think you'll notice is that there are NO COLUMNS! You know why? Because when you have columns, all you can host is trade shows. Expo Square can bring in dirt and bleachers and have arena-like activities. It's a true multi-function space. All those things we want to spend money on for a new arena COULD have been done in the Bennet Center, if we had built it correctly.

Maybe this is just a conspiracy theory, but it wouldn't surprise me if the fair board did that on purpose so they have more argument for "needing" a new arena.

And to be honest, the smaller spaces in the arena (related to cattle auctioning) have ZERO place at the fair and should be at a stockyard facility. If you want to do horse sales, head out to 29th/McArthur. There's a whole sprawling facility there. Why are we wasting space/money at the fairgrounds for that? The fairgrounds are NOT a stockyards. You wanna have an FFA show, ok fine great awesome. But do not ignore the other things that WANT to go there. And why are you wanting to force them out by trying to put in pay parking or raise rent rates so drastically? You can't fund improvements if you have no customers.

I'd like to take the fairgrounds and turn it into a city department. Bring in that open-meetings act and all that.

What events are we missing out on now because of issues stated on this thread?

What events are we missing out on now because of issues stated on this thread?

All the ones that used to be at the fairgrounds, but left?

We need to be honest with ourselves. The fairgrounds is basically for animal shows and an almost year-round gun and knife show. Anything else the fairgrounds seems actively hostile against, and aims to give more reason to go elsewhere than there.

All the ones that used to be at the fairgrounds, but left?

We need to be honest with ourselves. The fairgrounds is basically for animal shows and an almost year-round gun and knife show. Anything else the fairgrounds seems actively hostile against, and aims to give more reason to go elsewhere than there.

Which ones don’t happen there now because of the new expo, new policies, etc.? I assume the most obvious one is the dirt races. Other than that I guess I am unaware of events that have canceled or moved.

Which ones don’t happen there now because of the new expo, new policies, etc.? I assume the most obvious one is the dirt races. Other than that I guess I am unaware of events that have canceled or moved.

Depends how you define 'new policies'. I can name half a dozen that are no longer there because of increasing rates and/or the threat of charging for parking (which they pretty quickly backed down on, but damage had already been done). Are these 'new policies' or changes to old ones?

And of course there's the really amazingly obvious elephant in the room...when's the last time you were at a baseball game there?

I think having the ballpark downtown instead of fairgrounds is a good thing. Are you saying it should have stayed at the fairgrounds, or are you waxing nostalgic.

So, what are the events that cancelled? Still haven's seen any names of events.

I think having the ballpark downtown instead of fairgrounds is a good thing. Are you saying it should have stayed at the fairgrounds, or are you waxing nostalgic.

What have I said that even remotely implied this? You asked what events were no longer there, I answered. Other events that have left are Super!BitCon, Friends of the Library is actively looking for other venues, the wrestling event is still up in flux as far as I know (if anyone has more recent info, now would be a good time to chime in). How many concerts are there outside of the two weeks of the state fair? And if you're going to answer that with "there are better venues for that" again, isn't that pretty much the point?

Returning to the point I made (which nobody has refuted) is that the fairgrounds (which bills itself as the center of the horse show capital of the world) is wooing animal shows and gun/knife shows and rather little else. The same argument keeps going around and around, these horse shows bring so much money to the city, and yet apparently aren't self-sufficient. People are asking for more return on their money than horse shows and gun/knife shows, and quite rightly so.

didn't the fairgrounds used to have a fair number of conventions as well? seems like growing up there was always something 'fun' or entertaining going on at the fairgrounds and I'm not talking about just horse shows.

What have I said that even remotely implied this? You asked what events were no longer there, I answered. Other events that have left are Super!BitCon, Friends of the Library is actively looking for other venues, the wrestling event is still up in flux as far as I know (if anyone has more recent info, now would be a good time to chime in). How many concerts are there outside of the two weeks of the state fair? And if you're going to answer that with "there are better venues for that" again, isn't that pretty much the point?

Returning to the point I made (which nobody has refuted) is that the fairgrounds (which bills itself as the center of the horse show capital of the world) is wooing animal shows and gun/knife shows and rather little else. The same argument keeps going around and around, these horse shows bring so much money to the city, and yet apparently aren't self-sufficient. People are asking for more return on their money than horse shows and gun/knife shows, and quite rightly so.

So, their calendar shows 13 events there this month with no horse shows on the list. There are two gun events. Seems like there is more going on than horse shows.

And, the arena has never been acoustically good for concerts. It did book them when there weren’t other places, but it isn’t state fair admin policies that keep them out.

The money generated by horse shows generates some revenue for the faurgrounds but the vast majority of benefit is for the city, in general, through sales taxes, restaurant visits and hotel-motel taxes.

The issue at hand is that the park has lost most all the unique entertainment facilities such as the race track, the tower and the monorail which detract from the fairgrounds as a facility. The second issue is that Ft. Worth has built a "Taj Majal" arena specifically for agri and livestock shows. It is a major threat to take many of the shows away from IKC. If this happens, there will be little use for the fairgrounds at all. Nothing else but a few concert events happen at the arena other than the horse shows.

I agree, the books need to be opened on the operation of the fairgrounds. Very few government entities should be able to operate in a shadow.

So, their calendar shows 13 events there this month with no horse shows on the list. There are two gun events. Seems like there is more going on than horse shows.

And, the arena has never been acoustically good for concerts. It did book them when there weren’t other places, but it isn’t state fair admin policies that keep them out.

If you look again, keeping in mind I said animal shows (and you know this, as you quoted it), how many of the 13 events there are animal shows? But to address the no horse shows false claim, can anyone tell me what the NRHA Derby is? It seems like NRHA would stand for something, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Same with the OQHA Redbud spectacular, seems that's some sort of abbreviation. I wonder if clicking on the "more information" link might reveal...well, more information. Such as "A whirlwind of a horse show!”. It begs the question: when you "looked" were you just taking a quick glance to see if the word "horse" was followed by the word "show" in the event name?

Want to give that one another shot there? Let's look for the whole year. Other than September (I'll leave why as an exercise for the reader) there is not a single month this entire year with no horse show. That's just horse show, and I said animal show. Dogs and reptiles are animals.

Amen there stile99.

If you look again, keeping in mind I said animal shows (and you know this, as you quoted it), how many of the 13 events there are animal shows? But to address the no horse shows false claim, can anyone tell me what the NRHA Derby is? It seems like NRHA would stand for something, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Same with the OQHA Redbud spectacular, seems that's some sort of abbreviation. I wonder if clicking on the "more information" link might reveal...well, more information. Such as "A whirlwind of a horse show!”. It begs the question: when you "looked" were you just taking a quick glance to see if the word "horse" was followed by the word "show" in the event name?

Want to give that one another shot there? Let's look for the whole year. Other than September (I'll leave why as an exercise for the reader) there is not a single month this entire year with no horse show. That's just horse show, and I said animal show. Dogs and reptiles are animals.
Okay, so two animal shows out of 13 events this month. Lol. You got me there and thanks for entertaining with the snarky remark. Good job. I misread and counted as the NRA. Buts let’s disregard all the other things going on out there. Good spin.

Okay, so two animal shows out of 13 events this month.

OK, I think I see the issue. You're not looking at the State Fair Events page, which very clearly shows a reptile show this month, and two dog shows. Thanks for the clarification. For future reference, it's at this link (http://www.okstatefair.com/calendar-sfp)

I’m guessing that since the talk is about all the livestock buildings, the “animal” shows being considered as animal shows would be the ones utilizing the livestock buildings.

I don’t think reptiles or dogs will take up a lot of room in the barns.

Two huge Affair of the Heart shows are there every year. The auto show is there also.

They didn’t want the Bennett center to be an arena, they wanted a huge convention center. Correct me if I’m wrong but OKC didn’t have one that big to utilize. Those little buildings around it definitely aren’t new so this will take their place nicely.

I’m guessing that since the talk is about all the livestock buildings, the “animal” shows being considered as animal shows would be the ones utilizing the livestock buildings.

I don’t think reptiles or dogs will take up a lot of room in the barns.

But anything goes to prove a point, doesn't it? LOL. The issue was too many horse shows and everything else being canceled out. So, dogs are sort of little horses. And reptiles... maybe horse owners also grow reptiles. Got it.

OK, I think I see the issue. You're not looking at the State Fair Events page, which very clearly shows a reptile show this month, and two dog shows. Thanks for the clarification. For future reference, it's at this link (http://www.okstatefair.com/calendar-sfp)
Thank you for directing me to the page I used for this month's schedule. It is nice to confirm I was at the right site.

Thank you for directing me to the page I used for this month's schedule. It is nice to confirm I was at the right site.

Oh, you're most welcome. As you first claimed there were no horse shows, then there were no animal shows, I'm quite sure you can see the room for confusion. So we're agreed then, we've gone from your 0/13 to half animal and gun/knife shows.

...I'm sorry, what was your point again? I fear it got lost in all the false claims.

Point: there are plenty of non-livestock shows despite the claims that all the non-livestock shows have abandoned the fairgrounds?

If you look again, keeping in mind I said animal shows (and you know this, as you quoted it), how many of the 13 events there are animal shows? But to address the no horse shows false claim, can anyone tell me what the NRHA Derby is? It seems like NRHA would stand for something, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Same with the OQHA Redbud spectacular, seems that's some sort of abbreviation. I wonder if clicking on the "more information" link might reveal...well, more information. Such as "A whirlwind of a horse show!”. It begs the question: when you "looked" were you just taking a quick glance to see if the word "horse" was followed by the word "show" in the event name?

Want to give that one another shot there? Let's look for the whole year. Other than September (I'll leave why as an exercise for the reader) there is not a single month this entire year with no horse show. That's just horse show, and I said animal show. Dogs and reptiles are animals.

NRHA is the National Reining Horse Association, their HQ is down on Reno between May and Portland, it's on my way to work.

Oh, you're most welcome. As you first claimed there were no horse shows, then there were no animal shows, I'm quite sure you can see the room for confusion. So we're agreed then, we've gone from your 0/13 to half animal and gun/knife shows.

...I'm sorry, what was your point again? I fear it got lost in all the false claims.

WOW. There was a horse show in June. The fairgrounds is going to heck. This is the stupidest debate I've been involved in in quite some time. Shame on me. RME

The rest of us will continue to attend other events (that apparently don't exist) on the fairgrounds while I guess others will resent there are horse events. Sorry .... ANIMAL events (sorry for not including reptiles and dogs).

Two huge Affair of the Heart shows are there every year. The auto show is there also.

They didn’t want the Bennett center to be an arena, they wanted a huge convention center. Correct me if I’m wrong but OKC didn’t have one that big to utilize. Those little buildings around it definitely aren’t new so this will take their place nicely.

My question is why limit yourself? If you can (quite easily really) have a beam instead of a column, why not do it? They still have to run power lines all over creation in the Bennett, so its really nothing other than room structure changes. And quite frankly, it would be a pitched roof instead of flat like it is now. Cause flat roofs never leak or take more work to maintain (sarcasm). Yes it would have been more expensive to do it this way, but it would have made the building capable of so much more than it can be now.

Right now all it can do is hold convention activities (think curtain dividers and folding tables). But it COULD have held a lot more. Plop a stage in there (without obstructed views) for less fancy conventions that need a large space but dont want to pay for the price of the new CC. For that im thinking things like a ComicCon, SciFi, Gaming, etc. we USED To have those at the fairgrounds. We do still have the Cox Pavillion that can do some of that, so i'll grant that. But the SIZE of the Bennett having so much under one room was supposed to be sold as an Exposition Center. That's the name of the class of building they were pitching. But EXPO centers are more versatile....and dont have columns. Again, look to Expo Square in Tulsa and what it's capable of doing that the Bennett never will.

I probably wont ever walk in there and think anything other than what it COULD have been with just a little more effort. You'll never get the view from the Bennett, you get from Expo (and it chaps my butt Tulsa has it and we dont).14680

Well we've got 435 acres there, if the event fits the Bennett Center, great. If it requires the new convention center or larger arena downtown we're equipped to handle most anything that brings out-of-state money into our community which spurs a need for more hotels.

The more hotel space we have available then OKC can bid for the larger and more reputable events. Our location & facilities are our greatest assets.

When we opened the Myriad Convention Center November 1973 we didn't have any decent hotels downtown. The old 619 room Biltmore Hotel (Hotel Oklahoma) closed its doors June 1973, Hotel Oklahoma was obsolete, at the time it would have had to be totally gutted inside and rebuilt. It was later imploded October '77.

OKC now has options to attract trade shows and large gatherings. We have downtown hotels and the Meridian Hotel Corridor to satisfy the fairgrounds.

The big question; what type of arena will be needed to cater to the horse & various trade shows that frequent the fairgrounds & what portions do the State Fair Trust & City finance to anchor these events long-term. Fort Worth willing to invest $540 million (city's contribution is capped at $225 million) into a facility capable of handling horse shows, trade shows, basketball & ice hockey.

Fort Worth's aggressive strategic move means they are armed to go after these events long-term. The new Dickies Arena cost $120 million more than the $420 million Dallas' American Airlines Center. Once these events leave OKC like the NFR, you will never see them again.

Point: there are plenty of non-livestock shows despite the claims that all the non-livestock shows have abandoned the fairgrounds?

Again, you'll understand the confusion, considering nobody made that claim. As I understand it, the claim was made that the fairgrounds is focusing more on the animal and gun/knife shows (and, again, that people are asking for more return on their dollar, something STILL not refuted). Focusing 'more' does not mean 'to the exclusion of all others'. However, the claim WAS made that there are 0 horse shows there, quickly proven false by merely looking at their website. So you're saying you and Rover have been attempting to knock down an argument never made? I wonder if there's a term for that.

So, why would Comic-cons and what not go in here? Do columns really make certain trade shows impossible? The last comic-con type thing I went to was in a hotel convention center, meaning low roofs and multiple rooms breaking up the convention... To me the Bennett center would have been much better since it is all one space in one building with on level... Though last time I went through a convention at the Bennett I never made it out to the other two buildings at the fairgrounds, my wife and I were just worn out from walking back and forth across the Bennett that we didn't even care about seeing more crap...

The argument that was made:


One might argue that the fairgrounds is a site similar to downtown, but I'd argue that we only built one downtown arena, one streetcar system, one city park (well, two but MGB is a different story) yet the fairgrounds has an Expo Building for horses, Barns for horses, and ect for YOU GUESSED IT horses. Not one additional amenity or venue has been added nor proposed; you know, that could make the fairgrounds more versatile along the lines of MAPS - a METROPOLITAN contributor.



They removed the FAIR out of the fairpark IMO, turning it into a large, mediocre white elephant that's even today still living on OKC's history as a 'horse-show capital'.


And to be honest, the smaller spaces in the arena (related to cattle auctioning) have ZERO place at the fair and should be at a stockyard facility. If you want to do horse sales, head out to 29th/McArthur. There's a whole sprawling facility there. Why are we wasting space/money at the fairgrounds for that? The fairgrounds are NOT a stockyards. You wanna have an FFA show, ok fine great awesome. But do not ignore the other things that WANT to go there.


Returning to the point I made (which nobody has refuted) is that the fairgrounds (which bills itself as the center of the horse show capital of the world) is wooing animal shows and gun/knife shows and rather little else.

So the horse show argument was made by a few people, and addressed by a few people.

If we think any form of event involving animals are a problem, then half the shows are non-animal shows rather than “little else”. Personally, I don’t see the big deal with having a reptile show, and I don’t see how barns pushed out other shows in favor of dogs and reptiles.

Again, you'll understand the confusion, considering nobody made that claim. As I understand it, the claim was made that the fairgrounds is focusing more on the animal and gun/knife shows (and, again, that people are asking for more return on their dollar, something STILL not refuted). Focusing 'more' does not mean 'to the exclusion of all others'. However, the claim WAS made that there are 0 horse shows there, quickly proven false by merely looking at their website. So you're saying you and Rover have been attempting to knock down an argument never made? I wonder if there's a term for that.

No one claims NO horse shows. That is ridiculous. I have already copped to the charge I read NRHA as NRA. I beg your forgiveness. But earlier claims were made that other events are being chased out because the focus is on favoring horse shows. I just asked to clarify who exactly was being chased out based on that notion. It seems we have a pretty steady schedule of events of wide diversity. I am SURE they are working to attract more that are non-horse shows. Doing one does not preclude the other as was insinuated.

The Bennett Center is a pretty good facility. If they had tried to spend more money, I am sure we would be howling on here. The arena is pretty bad and needs replaced. There is no way anybody will get $400 million or so to build a grand new one as has been suggested because Ft. Worth did. So, let's be realistic and build a modern multi-purpose arena...which is what I think is being proposed, isn't it?

So what other facilities need to be built there to serve the city properly? What do others do that is within our needs and budget?

Personally, I think our fairgrounds is ugly... mostly steel buildings, asphalt and concrete slabs, and little landscaping. It is very utilitarian and not a pleasant neighborhood. Will OKC spring for "charming" and what is the business model that supports significant aesthetic upgrades?

You guys can debate until the cows come home.

Tulsa's Expo Center provides 354,000 square feet of column-free space under a cable-suspended roof. T-Town invested in the old 1963 Assembly Center which is just as old as the Expo Center. How many horse & trade shows does their fairgrounds complex attract which includes the 6,311 seat renovated Fairgrounds Pavilion built in 1932?

Tulsa is concerned that they will not be able to compete with OKC's new 200,000-square-foot exhibit hall/convention center & 605 room downtown Omni. Our new facilities will be high tech & cyber equipped.

Where do we go from here?

I think Tulsa's big unobstructed area need came from the Oilfield Equipment show. Not sure they even do that now. This month they have a car show and a Pinto Horse event.

I think we're making circles around some of the same issues here, but i think a few of those have gone off course from the intended statements.

1 - The big one for me is not that we want to get rid of any horse/livestock/etc shows. I'm not looking to doze the barns or anything like that. Would i personally care if they weren't there? Probably not. But im not so closed minded to not realize the economic impact of those said shows. For me, my issues is the ignoring of the rest of the grounds in favor of ONLY pandering to the livestock shows. We've failed to keep up the rest of the grounds in any way/shape/form. With all the buildings gone, we would be seeing some sort of masterplan that includes other areas.

2. Expanding on the master plan issue, the problem for me is that we do not have one outside of the western end of the grounds and that is only related to the livestock areas. Where's the vision for the rest of the place? Let's think outside of the box and see what we can get built here. Remember when the art museum was on the circle? We see people talking about the other things on the grounds in Dallas. We could attract some non state fair activities back...we certainly have the space to do it. We need to bring in some landscaping too so it doesn't feel so dead.

3 . Loss of iconic structures with no vision, again. Grandstands, fine they weren't in good condition but we COULD have built something new that worked better. Monorail went with it. We COULD have turn that thing into a real people mover instead of just a fair ride. It COULD have been a transit system for the fair like a train at an amusement park. Dont try to tell me the golf cart ones are the same. Part of being at the fair is the experience. Just like OKC is doing with light rail, make it a bus and it's just NOT the same thing. Arch, well it blew over. We could have fixed it....COULD have. Space Needle - long since past its time, but for the millionth time, lost opportunity to replace it with something ICONIC to the city. Observation tower with a restaurant, etc. Why not? It wouldn't have to have even been in the same place, but just toss it and forget it? And when you stop doing maintenance to cause structures to look worse so you have reason to tear them down, that's misleading.

4. Open Meetings would be the first step in all of this. Why do we let them operate in such a close-door manner? Why do we allow them to do things with no check or balance? When you're judge and jury, it's not fair. When you get the funds from the residents like they do, things should be more open so we dont have the questions we have now.

5. "They are building X so we have to keep up". That's a MAJOR problem for me with a fairgrounds. I never want us to be caught up in the city battle for fairgrounds activities. We could spend millions on these things and still lose those events. There's no promise or guarantee. Everywhere you go in professional sports, this argument is made and you do see teams move around. Eventually a city gets tired of spending money that they just GIVE to a team so they stay. The residents lose millions (and in most cases, the namesake city only as the suburbs dont actually pay the bill but certainly make their voice heard in why the city should pay it). Out goes the team to a new victim city. OKC is probably going to be there at some point with the Thunder. But lets not confuse Pro money with Fair money. That's something on a totally different scale and the livestock money is a drop in that bucket comparatively.

5. So you want the arena, fine. But lets make a non-livestock related project part of the package. How about for ever livestock project we do from here on out, we also include something elsewhere on the grounds? Doesn't even need to be equal value or anything, but i want to see something more being done. And i dont mean let's built 10K worth of fencing along with a 15 million arena (or whatever value). I think at least a 1/10th of the value is an absolute minimum, i'd really like to see 1/4th. Yes that means a bigger campaign for fund raising. But if it's legit and needed, i think you'll see support. Think of it like a school district bond election. Spread your love out around the grounds so everyone feels that love a little. It might take longer to get to the goal, but you'll have a lot more fans on the way. And that arena better still be able to host those OSSAA events. Those weeks worth of basketball and wrestling are an impact. It's crazy how full that arena is at that time. When i was in high school, our "basketball pep band" was asked to play at the state wrestling finals. I thought it was a little weird, but it was a blast. The place was packed and the fans even yelled thank yous to us from up in the stands because they said it made it a lot more fun. :) With 8 or 12 mats worth of matches going on at once, that place was a constant buzz. It's not the same having it at smaller place like casino arenas. The electricity just isn't the same. And talk about those high school basketball games. Several games a day and the place is almost full with each one, for days or weeks. If you've never been to a small-school state playoff game, its nuts. My high school hosted several of those each year and so the band worked concessions. It was absolutely nuts how many people came to those games. Parking lots overflowing at the school. You cram 3-4k people in a high school gym and it's a level of awesome crazy that is unparalleled. Up that scale at the fairgrounds arena too!

couldn't have said it better bomber. ...

Here are some renderings:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=31&v=-bqdq_32ihc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=31&v=-bqdq_32ihc

I'm not the biggest fan but I don't think its that bad. I wish we'd aim a little higher however.

That video doesn't include the livestock selling floor. Did that get removed (like it should be)?

I'm still not clear on how the existing structure doesn't serve the same purpose that the new one would given what they are planning for. And for those events, you don't exactly need a new building. Are we seriously talking about suites for the ice capades and horse shows?

That video doesn't include the livestock selling floor. Did that get removed (like it should be)?

I'm still not clear on how the existing structure doesn't serve the same purpose that the new one would given what they are planning for. And for those events, you don't exactly need a new building. Are we seriously talking about suites for the ice capades and horse shows?

The actual structure of the existing one is in need of replacement, especially the entire roof structure... Therefore, it makes sense to replace with a better version if we're going to spend the money to fix all of the structural issues.

Detailed look at proposed new State Fair Coliseum (http://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=582-Detailed-look-at-proposed-new-State-Fair-Coliseum)

As we were first to report in August 2016, the board of the state fairgrounds commissioned a study by consultants Populous to determine the feasibility and cost to construct a new multi-purpose facility to replace the aging Jim Norick Arena.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena022619d.jpg


Norick Arena seats 8,500 in its typical configuration but can accommodate up to 11,000. Originally named the State Fairgrounds Arena, it opened in 19651990s current facility received a renovation and slight expansion as part of the first MAPS initiative in the 1990's.

The City of Oklahoma City has used Populous to assist in the site selection and design of the MAPS 3 Convention Center and also commissioned other studies from the Kansas City-based firm, which has had a hand in dozens of arenas, ballparks and stadiums around the world.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena022619g.jpg


As the vote for MAPS 4 approaches later this year, Mayor David Holt has mentioned this particular project may be included.

As proposed, the new arena would sit slightly southeast of the present arena site and be completely new from the ground up. It would also be attached to the new livestock barns that were recently added as part of MAPS 2 and directly across from the new Expo Building, which was recently completed as part of MAPS 3.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena022619r.jpg


The plans drawn by Populous and ADG also call for a small horse/livestock arena to be built between the existing barns and the new facility, along with more barn and multi-purpose space.

Other features include two large plazas, suites, and retractable upper-level seating. A lounge and restaurants are also part of the proposal.

Flexibility would allow for the easy configuration for equestrian/rodeo with a capacity of 5,500 to basketball, circus, ice shows and concerts that could host over 9,000 attendees.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena022619q.jpg


A phased construction plan would allow Norick Arena to remain operational during the construction of the Coliseum.

The established budget is just over $96 million. The Populous study claims an annual economic impact of $330 million.

If the plan becomes part of a MAPS 4 vote, it would do so against a background of public backlash surrounding several recent demolitions at State Fair Park, including the landmark Space Needle which came down late last year. Concern has also been raised about similar removals of the monorail and speedway, as many see the park as eliminating sentimental favorites in favor of equine and livestock facilities.

The State Fair Park is operated by Oklahoma State Fair, Inc. on behalf of the City of Oklahoma City, which owns all the property and buildings. Board meetings of Oklahoma State Fair, Inc. are not public, nor is detailed financial information.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena022619b.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena022619c.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena022619e.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena022619f.jpg

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http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena022619p.jpg

I predict a resounding NO vote on MAPS 4 if this is included. I'm not saying this shouldn't be built, I'm saying it's time for the Fairgrounds to stop expecting blank cheques on Maps and instead invest in themselves.

It is time for the Fair Board to use their existing revenue streams (which we still have no idea) to invest in their venues. They are always the first to show up to the trough with this crap yet are never held accountable for what they have and were allowed to destroy what the fair park was.

I strongly urge the mayor and chamber to pass on the fairgrounds and let them build this themselves. ....

I really like the design.

I don’t like MAPS paying for this. The citizens of OKC have written too many blank checks to the Fairgrounds. Time for this horse to stand on its own legs.

I would agree that if this is to be in MAPS, they need to have a self funded plan to renovate the rest of the fairgrounds and make it a year round destination for more activities and events. Add back some fun elements like a space needle type item, would be neat to have an observation tower out there - would have nice views of downtown and the surrounding areas.

These are city owned venues as would be this new building

And I don’t think the general public is anti the fair grounds at all. And this arena will have tons of events for the people of Okc going forward.

I don't know if some of you realize how huge the horse industry is here.

I imagine the plan is to compete with the Ohio Expo Center in general, as they get some one of the biggest horse shows in the country every year:

https://ohioexpocenter.com/

The Coliseum is the best analogy to this project:

https://ohioexpocenter.com/rental-facilities/coliseum/

In terms of making the fair grounds a year round facility, wouldn't something like this be right in line with that concept, since it can be used for so many types of events? Obviously, the horse shows are the cash cows of significant economic influx they are chasing, but this seems to go beyond that. Not saying MAPS is the way to fund it, but I think the potential benefits of the facility aren't without merit or to be dismissed out of hand.

It's been said ad nauseum, hard to believe anyone doesn't know.

I don't know if some of you realize how huge the horse industry is here.

Then it should be able to be self sustaining?

I'll vote no on Maps if this is included.

"It's gonna be a 'no' from me, dawg."

Then it should be able to be self sustaining?

I'll vote no on Maps if this is included.

Self-sustaining, but not self-building. Just saying. Once it is built, then the Fairgrounds could be tasked with maintenance. I doubt they have $100 million just laying around.

The 3 big projects the Chamber seems to be behind are:

1. State Fair Coliseum
2. Energy Soccer Stadium
3. I-235 Innovation Link cap


Not sure what else is going to end up being included, but none of those 3 seem to be very popular.

As far as revenue streams, the Fairgrounds could merely issue revenue bonds based on future income.

This is exactly what the city does all the time; it's how the $967MM Better Streets, Safer City is being completely funded.


Also, keep in mind that there is currently a 5.5% room tax and 6/11 goes directly to the fairgrounds, 1/11 goes to the convention and visitors bureau, and 4/11 goes to general convention and tourism. I'm sure that part of the 5/11 not specifically earmarked for the fairgrounds is spent on promoting events held there.

There also seems to be a movement afoot to raise that tax, based on the Chambers questions to city council candidates before the recent election: "Do you favor a 1 cent increase in the City’s Hotel/Motel tax to promote tourism in OKC?"

ice... i saw something about ice... maybe a hockey configuration could work? a nice smaller venue that provides a long term location for an ECHL team? since that is why they said the Cox center wouldn't work?

Maps has done great things for the city but its looking more and more like it will die when we vote for MAPS4. It's not that I think this project isn't a good idea but like many others have said I don't think it needs to be part of MAPS and with the other projects Pete mentioned that may be included we might just see MAPS end.

I'm generally 'vote for the good and bad to get the good' with regards to MAPS, but shoveling more money at the unaccountable State Fair grounds would test that.

If they want this included it should come with opening their meeting minutes to public records requests.

The 3 big projects the Chamber seems to be behind are:

1. State Fair Coliseum
2. Energy Soccer Stadium
3. I-235 Innovation Link cap


Not sure what else is going to end up being included, but none of those 3 seem to be very popular.With these details of the new arena, I really like it. I just hope we don't cheap out and not include landscaping. I would like to see a stipulation that new improvements to the fairgrounds such as bringing back the space needle, parking structures, various renovations, and such things in order for this project to receive MAPS funding but I'm not so sure how that would work.

As for the other things, I like the park cap as proposed and would support it. I can see why others wouldn't. I want more details about a future soccer stadium. I think it is time to focus MAPS outside of downtown now. A big shiny project for the southside and other suburban areas getting something more than the typical trails and sidewalks, which still should be included. Metro rail(NOT STREETCAR!!!) should be looked at or perhaps commuter rail could be funded at least for the portion in OKC city limits.

I don't know if some of you realize how huge the horse industry is here.

Not huge enough to pay for their own coliseum, it would appear.