According to this, they've done well recently: http://newsok.com/article/5513699

I think the river cruise are more novelty than actual transportation, and I believe the tickets are relatively expensive?

$6 per stop, $15 maximum. Cheaper than a cab, tons more fun, not to mention room. As for every day transportation no, that would just be silly. As for a group of people from out of town staying at one of the hotels and wanting to go drinking in Bricktown, I would think it would be part of the 'experience'.

$6 per stop, $15 maximum. Cheaper than a cab, tons more fun, not to mention room. As for every day transportation no, that would just be silly. As for a group of people from out of town staying at one of the hotels and wanting to go drinking in Bricktown, I would think it would be part of the 'experience'.
Thanks. For some reason I was thinking they were $30-40

Looking at the proposed images, I am not a fan of the retractable cheap seats that are located by the rafters. The design should do away with those because we all know that any event hosted by the proposed arena would never reach 100% capacity.

The new arena proposed is more of a replacement for the antiquated 51 year old $2 million State Fair Arena which broke ground in 1963. There will be many events that will not require opening the upper deck level; a new arena would help bring ice hockey back to OKC, possibly opening the door for an anchor tenant. A new arena would spur development along N.W. 10th from Pennsylvania west to Portland avenues.

The return of AA ice hockey which should be ripe for OKC around 2020 would provide a year round booking of events for this much needed arena. If OKC were to join Tulsa & Wichita in the ECHL, you can bet that there will be some sold out events especially with the new building.

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Projects/Stockyards/coliseum.jpg http://www.cowboysportsnews.com/images/Jim%20Norick%20Arena%20Photo.jpg

The present State Fair Arena was built as a replacement for the Stockyard Coliseum which was built in 1922 (43 years old). The old Coliseum was destroyed by fire in 1970.

The Jim Norick Arena looks like a giant metal barn that you would find somewhere near Washington, Oklahoma or something. It is beyond ugly. I get that sort of works being within the confines of our fair grounds, but to be honest, that new arena looks pretty great. With the new Expo Center, this could really bring back some the lost appeal of the fair grounds. I'm for it. Although, I sort of wish it were a TAD larger. Maybe up to as much as 13,000. I just feel like that might grab a few more national events, or bring a year round sporting attendant. But then again, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

The old stockyards coliseum looks pretty awesome. Too bad the new one couldn't look like that from the outside.

Folks, we now know who will be first in line for the next Maps 'pork barrel' handout. Sorry to be snarky but I've seen this before from the fairgrounds - ....

I know others comment on the value to the city and I don't disagree, but why not use those proceeds from those shows/events to become self sustaining? I think it might be argued that the fairgrounds has received more MAPS dollars as an entity than any other - yet unlike other venues the fairgrounds has a well defined, dependable revenue stream.

I am 'hopeful' - crossing my fingers, that this time they can start to self fund -ala WRWA- or at least come to MAPS with projects that will benefit the entire city and not just a specific interest (regardless of the draw).

Alright! One more legacy building at the fairgrounds to be demolished.

Great State fair of Oklahoma, my posterior. . .

Alright! One more legacy building at the fairgrounds to be demolished.

Great State fair of Oklahoma, my posterior. . .

The Fairgrounds Arena was obsolete at the time it was built. There are plans to replace it with a more modern facility. It helped Oklahoma City obtain its first triple A hockey franchise (The Blazers, NHL Bruins affiliate) back in 1965; many of us remember that the ice surface looked like a frozen pond in Piedmont. They finally had to cement the concourse playing surface in order to make for clearer ice. Although it was our first new arena; it's not as iconic as the Municipal Auditorium (Civic Center Music Hall) constructed in 1937.

The arena was the first home to the successful National Finals Rodeo (NFR) which we lost to Las Vegas because we couldn't keep up with facility growth (seating & amenities) demands--we stand to lose many of our current horse related events if we don't replace this facility.

http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r960-026f39051d50f33477657a3f74349416.jpg

Sagging ceiling with structural deficiencies.

Engineers contracted by Oklahoma City say the Norick Arena roof has reached its shelf life: http://www.koco.com/news/engineers-say-norick-arena-roof-needs-repair/26582272 Can't continue to put $1 million bandages on this building.

The repairs to the antiquated State Fair Arena (just waiting for the ceiling to fall in) will cost more than building a new arena from scratch. Why keep pouring money into this raggedy old rusty structure.

More detailed information from the Oklahoman and William Crum.

http://www.oklahoman.com/new-big-house/article/5515992


The site plan includes replacing the current arena with a new barn, including an “avenue of champions,” plaza and makeup arena connecting the existing barns complex to the new building.

Under one proposal, demolition of the old building and construction of facilities connecting the barns and the new arena would be timed to be complete by early summer, when the season for the highest-profile national and international equine events begins.

The same proposal includes a timeline estimating about seven months for design and two years for construction of the new building.

I get the sense this will not be a MAPS project.

They are moving pretty quickly and as BDP had previously mentioned, have access to hotel use tax money plus the general revenues from the fairgrounds itself.

I don't think we'll see another full-blown MAPS for several more years and this project seems to be on the fast track.

^^ Hooray Pete. I honestly can't believe it.

I think it is about time they utilize their own sources and wait to ask for MAPS for civic projects (like say, restoration of the Space Needle/Monorail). Ive been somewhat upset with their past projects because it appeared as if they were trying to use MAPS as a cash cow for revenue producing events [and likely therefore pocketing the $$ from said events]. Good to know (or at least suspect) that they will use those $$ to reinvest in themselves.

IMO, MAPS is a capital investment tool for civic projects not a cash cow for venues to abuse. Looks like the fairgrounds are starting to follow this theory more closely; which is great.

Our peer city north, Omaha, NE; they have managed to build projects without a vehicle like MAPS.

Oklahoma City (631,346 urban/1.3 million metro) is very similar in size & demographics with Omaha (443,885 urban/915,312). Now, we don't want to damage our city's credit rating; however, there are projects that can be built without the use of the MAPS initiative.

Omaha built their arena as apart of their convention center complex ($297 million bond issue in 2003); the arena is equipped for basketball, ice hockey & an Olympic size pool for qualifying events: they built TD Ameritrade Park @ $130 million (private-public funding) to keep the college baseball world series. OKC is doing something similar with the Women's College Softball World Series.

We have the luxury of an arena downtown (The Peake) with a new convention center complex (planned) adjacent to it; also a new arena at the fairgrounds (400 acres of city-owned property) where we can develop other areas (Classen 10 Penn/OSUOKC @ Portland Ave., to Meridian hotel corricor) besides the core.

The new downtown convention center along with all the barns & facilities at State Fair Park; OKC has two convention center tourist type districts to attract 'out-of-state' dollars to potentially grow our economy.

Reviving this thread... Anything new?

I dont really understand the retractable seating on the upper level. If you make it retractable, that assumes there's some benefit to pulling it back. What would be the purpose of the space on an upper level like that if you pull the seats back?

Not nearly the size or anything, but OCU's gym also has retractable at the top. But at least there, the upper level served as the classroom space for defense/wellness/etc courses. Somehow i dont think that will be happening at a public arena. Is retractable cheaper than permanent seating?

Somehow the current arena feels bigger, but it's only 10,400 or something like that, so we wouldn't really be losing much capacity and would totally get a better facility. I guess it's the ceiling height above the upper seats right now. The place does look like an aging pile of crap....especially that spray insulation junk.

To those that think the Myriad is about ready to be torn down, this would probably help solidify that argument some. Still lots of other topics related to the Myriad, but at least for the fairgrounds, seems like a good deal. Main question for me is what is OSSAA going to do during the construction year? Every spring, high schools around the state fill their gyms with thousands of spectators for these games, and the "big house" fills up every seat for a couple of weeks. I think wrestling moved out to the Grand Casino this year????? But that's a LOT of money that is going to end up going somewhere other than the city. Think maybe they'll offer up the Myriad? Parking would suck a WHOLE lot more. But all the parking folks around downtown would definitely eat it up.

I wonder if motorsports shows like Monster Jam and Motocross would hold their events here instead of the Chesapeake. Would make a cool home for minor league hockey, too.

There are multiple indoor Midget and Mini Sprint Races held across the Midwest now, The Chili bowl and Tulsa Shootout are held in December at the Tulsa Expo center that Are sold out every year bringing millions of dollars into the economy, The New OKC arena would be a perfect location for something like that as long as they had some indoor pits for the cars.

One reason for the retractable seating above may be to just close off that seating when it is not in use.

Also, looks much better than having a ton of empty seats.

Hopefully OKC can refrain from calling this new arena the big house. That's Michigan's thing.

There are multiple indoor Midget and Mini Sprint Races held across the Midwest now, The Chili bowl and Tulsa Shootout are held in December at the Tulsa Expo center that Are sold out every year bringing millions of dollars into the economy, The New OKC arena would be a perfect location for something like that as long as they had some indoor pits for the cars.

This would be perfect for Monster Jam. When I went last month it filled just about half of the Chesapeake Arena.

Could you use the upper space for retail booths during events if the seating is retracted?

Could you use the upper space for retail booths during events if the seating is retracted?

They could but I don't know if they would.

Hopefully OKC can refrain from calling this new arena the big house. That's Michigan's thing.

Sure is!

Found this:13668

I'm guessing that's what it looks like without the seats on the top.

I'm guessing that's what it looks like without the seats on the top.

I guess that keeps people confined to the lower section and allows advertising.

That's what i thought when i saw that jn1780....can't sell a seat, sell a sign!

Have you all seen the video the State Fair Park released?
https://www.facebook.com/okstatefair/videos/10155030909051797/?pnref=story

^

Thanks for sharing that. Very cool.

This is a screen grab that shows the upper level seating retracted. In all the configurations shown in that video, those seats are either used for spectators or retracted for smaller events.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena030817.jpg

Hopefully OKC can refrain from calling this new arena the big house. That's Michigan's thing.

Michigan's 'big house' is an outdoor facility; wouldn't be concerned about reference to the State Fair Arena being called the 'big house.' It's probably the description rural areas use to describe the arena at State Fair Park.

The non use of retractable seating could also serve for some wrestling mats to be positioned in that area to allow participants to warm up.

Not sure about the upper level seating added capacity (7,400 lower level) but it would eliminate the empty upper deck you see at many arenas where certain events don't require the extra seats or use of traps like you see at the Cox Arena to cover seats not being used. The flexibility of the new arena, you could use retractable seating on one side of the upper deck without using both upper deck retractable seating.

https://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/16mvG1xo_a_yzMRVM2QA1w/ls.jpg

Could also serve as a new home for the NBADL Oklahoma City Blue and open the door for another chapter of minor league ice hockey in OKC.

BTW, on that State Fair Facebook page with the video, they are openly lobbying to have the arena included in the upcoming general obligation bond:


We’re working on plans for a new Arena at State Fair Park! The architect/engineering consultants have been hired & the City of Oklahoma City is conducting a survey on project funding needs for the 2017 General Obligations Bond, and possibly MAPS 4.
You can help by taking the survey and voicing your support! On question No. 3, simply let them know you'd love to see a new Arena at State Fair Park

^
Noticed that too!

:please::please::please:

https://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r960-62e2b1470ff08427fcd67cdd1542dd90.jpg

Don't forget to include the renovation & expansion (12,500 seats) of the Don E. Porter ASA Hall of Fame Stadium in your survey.

There are multiple indoor Midget and Mini Sprint Races held across the Midwest now, The Chili bowl and Tulsa Shootout are held in December at the Tulsa Expo center that Are sold out every year bringing millions of dollars into the economy, The New OKC arena would be a perfect location for something like that as long as they had some indoor pits for the cars.I would love to see midget, mini-sprint, speedway bikes, etc. race inside in OKC. The question is, why would a new arena cause a promoter to bring such to OKC. The current arena is a good venue for dirt track racing. Much better than the River Spirit Center in Tulsa. Pretty much any arena is better for racing than the River Spirit Center. The River Spirit Center actually sucks as a racing venue. The Chili Bowl is world famous, sold out every year before the last year's race happens and is raced in by stars of every racing discipline because, well, it's the Chili Bowl. It's definitely not because of the venue.

Michigan's 'big house' is an outdoor facility; wouldn't be concerned about reference to the State Fair Arena being called the 'big house.' It's probably the description rural areas use to describe the arena at State Fair Park.

I just don't like Oklahoma co opting famous names and using them here. It's kinda lame.

^ OKC's was first though, known as the big house since the late 1960s, and Michigan's since the the late 1980s.

http://newsok.com/article/5483910
"State Fair Arena got its nickname thanks to a pair of Oklahoma high school coaching legends.... That has remained the same for almost five decades."

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/2013/12/27/what-makes-the-big-house-so-unique-and-so-special
"NICKNAME: "The Big House," given by longtime ABC college football announcer Keith Jackson, circa 1988."

Do we really need this?

Remember, we already used MAPS I money to upgrade the existing facility then spent much more tax payer money on horse barns, parking and the new expo building.

We were promised that all that investment would result in much more revenue due to horse shows and other business.

So why can't that revenue fund a new arena, if one is needed?

At what point does this investment actually generate revenue that is reinvested rather than constantly taxing ourselves?

In addition to all these surcharges paid for by citizens, there is also a 5.5% hotel room tax and a good chunk of that goes to the fairgrounds as well.


It seems obvious at this point they hope to fund this through the general obligation bonds (at the expense of roads and other infrastructure) or through another MAPS.

It's also clear they are very far down the road on this and have already shelled out a lot of money for studies and plans that no one seemed to know about.

Just looked this up and the fairgrounds get more than half the 5.5% lodging tax.

Good grief, taxpayers are funneling a ton of money into the fairgrounds and we *still* are using MAPS and possibly the general obligation bonds to give them still more, despite all the supposed revenue they are generating?

Some further info, for fiscal year 2016, the fairgrounds received almost $8MM from the hotel tax.

They get 6/11th of all taxes collected (5.5% on all rooms in the city limits), convention and tourism gets 4/11th and event sponsorship gets 1/11th.

And of course, with the number of hotel rooms expanding rapidly in the city, taxes and the amount paid to the fairgrounds is continually increasing.

Yes the Arena might be a good place to race but what about an area for the pits that would be inside and not in the weather during the colder months, It looks like to me the New Arena is going to have a New barn attached that might be able to be the Pit area just like the venue in Tulsa that has the pits inside.

Are horse shows bringing in the revenue expected when all the barns were built? Seems like a few years ago every other weekend the old stadium parking lot was full of trucks hauling horse trailers. Doesn't look like nearly as many now.

Just looked this up and the fairgrounds get more than half the 5.5% lodging tax.

Good grief, taxpayers are funneling a ton of money into the fairgrounds and we *still* are using MAPS and possibly the general obligation bonds to give them still more, despite all the supposed revenue they are generating?

There's no telling how much money is in the State Fair account. They will continue to hoard funds as long as MAPS, 2004 hotel-motel lodging tax & other funds support their coffers.

Think about it; why should they tap into their account when other fund sources are at their disposal. Hope they are planning to replace some of the iconic structures like the Arrows to Atoms Space Tower, Monorail & the Grand Stands or will we see something iconic & totally different from the past.


https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1135/1118182214_b931092d7c_m.jpg http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1325/1117438833_e78502577b_m.jpg http://randylewis.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/oklahoma-state-fair-speedway.jpg

In the 50s, State Fair of Oklahoma was relocated to its present 440 acre site (N.W. 10th) from where the present Douglass High School campus sits at 900 N. MLK (formerly a stretch of Eastern Avenue).

Yes the Arena might be a good place to race but what about an area for the pits that would be inside and not in the weather during the colder months, It looks like to me the New Arena is going to have a New barn attached that might be able to be the Pit area just like the venue in Tulsa that has the pits inside.
I've never been in the new barns but if the stalls are movable/removable that would do fine.

Are horse shows bringing in the revenue expected when all the barns were built? Seems like a few years ago every other weekend the old stadium parking lot was full of trucks hauling horse trailers. Doesn't look like nearly as many now.
I find just the opposite. It seems like every time I drive by there on weekends it is full of trailers. The number of horse shows and other activities has not slowed down.

Are horse shows bringing in the revenue expected when all the barns were built? Seems like a few years ago every other weekend the old stadium parking lot was full of trucks hauling horse trailers. Doesn't look like nearly as many now.

I've thought the same thing. The parking lots used to be filled to the brim, but now, I don't see them that full ever. Usually around a 1/4 to 1/2 full.

^ OKC's was first though, known as the big house since the late 1960s, and Michigan's since the the late 1980s.

http://newsok.com/article/5483910
"State Fair Arena got its nickname thanks to a pair of Oklahoma high school coaching legends.... That has remained the same for almost five decades."

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/2013/12/27/what-makes-the-big-house-so-unique-and-so-special
"NICKNAME: "The Big House," given by longtime ABC college football announcer Keith Jackson, circa 1988."
I was unaware of this. Thanks for the info.

I find just the opposite. It seems like every time I drive by there on weekends it is full of trailers. The number of horse shows and other activities has not slowed down.

Same here, I travel I-44/I-40 several times a day and the parking area where All Sports Stadium use to be is usually full whenever they have an event.

There's no telling how much money is in the State Fair account. They will continue to hoard funds as long as MAPS, 2004 hotel-motel lodging tax & other funds support their coffers.

Think about it; why should they tap into their account when other fund sources are at their disposal. Hope they are planning to replace some of the iconic structures like the Arrows to Atoms Space Tower, Monorail & the Grand Stands or will we see something iconic & totally different from the past.


https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1135/1118182214_b931092d7c_m.jpg http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1325/1117438833_e78502577b_m.jpg http://randylewis.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/oklahoma-state-fair-speedway.jpg

In the 50s, State Fair of Oklahoma was relocated to its present 440 acre site (N.W. 10th) from where the present Douglass High School campus sits at 900 N. MLK (formerly a stretch of Eastern Avenue).
I would love to see the monorail up and running again.

I would love to see the monorail up and running again.

Is there a chance the track could bend?

Is there a chance the track could bend?

Not on your life, my Hindu friend!

OKC will begin to feel the competition in the horse & trade show industry from our neighbor to the south (Fort Worth); the new $540 million Dickies Arena at Will Rogers Memorial will seat roughly 14,000. We don't need a 14,000-seat arena at our Fairgrounds; however the present Norick State Fair Arena (built1963) was our first major accomplishment since the closing of the Stockyards Coliseum and the total renovation & retrofit of the old Municipal Auditorium (Civic Center Music Hall). Recall that the old MA use to be the home of the All College NCAA basketball tournament back when OCU was a D-I collegiate competitor..


https://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/large960_blur-f752aa90bf5564b09b7aa0c3db70c66d.jpg
Estimated cost to replace the State Fair Arena by Populous is approximately $80 million.

We do need to replace the State Fair Arena. The Fairgrounds complex has received money from several MAPS initiatives; most recently the 279,000-square-foot, $$58.7 million Bennett Events Center.

Our fairgrounds sits on a 435 acre parcel.

The question remains about the State Fair Broad Trust; how much money does the trust hoard?

And the next question, which is really the big one, does the larger populous care enough about the already taking over horse crap (pun intended) to even WANT to spend money on a fair grounds arena. Yes, it will be nice and be a better fit for the state basketball tourneys. But reality is that the residents are woefully tired of things being built for the horses and not the people.

I still consider the Bennet Center to be an abject failure because of its use of support columns. And we still need a few smaller buildings for shows that don't need a massive space.

And would the residents see the loss of horse shows as a bad thing? Personally, if we tossed all of the barns/etc, i wouldn't care. The fairgrounds could go back to its core purpose. I'm sure the city wants all the hotel money/etc. Personally, i'm just tired of hearing about horses/cows/pigs/etc with the fairgrounds. It's not a stockyards!

And the next question, which is really the big one, does the larger populous care enough about the already taking over horse crap (pun intended) to even WANT to spend money on a fair grounds arena. Yes, it will be nice and be a better fit for the state basketball tourneys. But reality is that the residents are woefully tired of things being built for the horses and not the people.

I still consider the Bennet Center to be an abject failure because of its use of support columns. And we still need a few smaller buildings for shows that don't need a massive space.

And would the residents see the loss of horse shows as a bad thing? Personally, if we tossed all of the barns/etc, i wouldn't care. The fairgrounds could go back to its core purpose. I'm sure the city wants all the hotel money/etc. Personally, i'm just tired of hearing about horses/cows/pigs/etc with the fairgrounds. It's not a stockyards!

I hate to burst your urbanist bubble but the core purpose of the State Fairgrounds IS to hold agricultural, livestock, and farming and ranching events. The State Fair of Oklahoma only occupies 3 weeks of the year and ties together/introduces people to those events along with arts and crafts, food, cars, farm and ranch implements, etc. To say you don't care about the horse barns is incredibly narrow-minded because those events bring in an estimated $1.25 billion in revenue to the city annually. That's money spent on restaurants, events, shopping, hotels and motels. All that money generates taxes to help fix all the other things you complain about such as street and highway lights.

You have long been a great source of information about the MWC/Del City area. If you don't live in OKC proper, then you don't have a horse in the show (pun intended). None of your taxes will go to the fairgrounds so maybe that is your answer.

You clearly don't have any understanding of farming and ranching and give no thought to how all that food gets to your belly. It doesn't just magically appear there and these shows serve a vital purpose to those who participate to identify superior livestock and breeding stock, spread more efficient techniques for the farming and ranching, techniques to help reduce the use and need for chemicals, pesticides and water. Farming and ranching are some of the riskiest and toughest jobs there are and few put the individual and family in more financial risk on an annual basis.

I saw the new arena in Fort Worth a few weeks ago and it is going to be truly magnificent. OKC stands to lose a huge amount of these shows when Ft. Worth decides to go after them. With all the other advantages the DFW area has, OKC has some significant work ahead of it and a new arena is essential.

That said, I agree that the State Fairgrounds have gone to pot the last 30 years. I grew up next to the fairgrounds and it kills me to see the current operators/board remove anything pertaining to entertainment, sports or recreation in favor of the various shows. If the board needs to be more transparent with the finances, then someone needs to file a lawsuit or determine the legal ways to open the books through city government. I can't believe it could possibly be legal to operate a taxpayer funded entity in an entirely opaque manner. If it is that difficult to do, perhaps the entire thing should be dissolved in favor of a new operating entity or just make it a part of regular city government.

The issue with the fairgrounds is that they keep spending taxpayer money on all these improvements vowing great revenues, then turn around and keep wanting more and more and more from taxpayers.

Even though the property is owned by the city and all their revenues come from city-owned assets, they operate outside of open meeting and records laws. I think that matter would be succesffuly challenged in a court of law but citizens shouldn't have to go that route for more transparency.

The state of the grounds itself is embarassing. Just seas of new parking with zero landscaping and what is already there is not well maintained. When they built the huge new Expo Building with millions from MAPS, they didn't plant one tree or bush and that includes the acres of parking that were added.

They need to invest some of that money they raise from scores of events and make the grounds nice, clean and landscaped. And they need to start being more accountable before they ask for more money from taxpayers.

There will be a constant need for money for the fairgrounds until something major comes in to generate permanent and significant revenues. When there is a large capital improvements project, yes, city help will be needed. For regular maintenance and upkeep, no, revenues generated there should be sufficient. Even the Dallas Fair Park received $50 million from a recent bond issue.

It would be wonderful to have facilities on our fairgrounds like the Dallas Fair Park such as the Music Hall (showing touring plays and concerts), the amphitheater (top quality music concerts) and the Cotton Bowl (holds a few football games annually) - that would generate enough money to make ours self sufficient.

I agree, to open the books shouldn't require a lawsuit - but it seems it may if the Fair Board refuses to cooperate. Lack of openness indicates there is something to hide. I would think a start might be to pressure the new mayor and councilpersons on the subject.

Doesn't the Fair Board operate the fairgrounds under some odd lease agreement for a token amount per year? What we've allowed to happen to the fairgrounds borders on the criminal to me. It's a civic entity, but it isn't being managed that way. They've absolutely destroyed it.

To say you don't care about the horse barns is incredibly narrow-minded because those events bring in an estimated $1.25 billion in revenue to the city annually. That's money spent on restaurants, events, shopping, hotels and motels. All that money generates taxes to help fix all the other things you complain about such as street and highway lights.

Yeah, the dumbest thing would be to turn our backs on one of the biggest economic engines we have in terms of public assets. Given that most of the money comes from outside the state and even outside the country, it's a real net gain, not just a revenue shift from one asset to another. You run the horse shows out of town and that money just disappears.

So, the real focus should be on the issues of transparency that Pete has raised and find out how it can be more self sufficient and make more improvements. It's kind of working now despite its poor management. If we had access to what's really going down, it could be exponentially better.

And, just to be clear, I can't even remember the last time I was on the fairgrounds. Ha

mugofbeer - actually i do live in OKC limits, but thanks for making an assumption. You know what that does.....

I dont have to have a deep understanding to know that im tired of spending tax money on barns at the fairgrounds (AND NOTHING ELSE). We used to have other resources for these activities (you know, that the taxpayers didn't subsidize). It's not that i dont appreciate the need for stock activities. My problem is the never-ending river of money that goes ONLY to these activities that ignores the rest of the grounds. But please do educate us on how HORSE activities where ribbons are given out, are part of the food chain in a country that bans eating horses. Yeah a lot of the world eats them, but we don't here.

BTW - i did admit that they bring economic impact to the city (apparently you missed that in your rant). Again, my problem is that the city is paying for this stuff over and over and over to subsidize this stuff. Something we do NOT do for other industries. The ag shows at the fairgrounds are starting to turn into a relationship like professional sports. "Either you build me a new arena or im going to move. And i want the CITY to pay for it all, but i want to get all the benefit from it". Hmmm, i seem to remember that's how the Thunder ended up in OKC.....

As Pete said, one of the problems i have is that they continue to make promises, fail to deliver on them, and operate in a black box that no one can see in.

The issue is there's no oversight. They might be doing an absolutely fantastic job, spending the money wisely and making sound investments with public tax dollars. But we have no way to know.

I'll accept the idea that the horse shows bring in far more money than the State Fair, and for all I know they operate year round instead of the two weeks or whatever that the State Fair does. If somebody says that the money difference is 100 to 1, well then I'll believe them because I really don't know anything about the subject.

I wouldn't even be opposed to a new MAPS program that included a big horse arena thing over there, if the numbers supported it. But we need some transparency so we know how the existing money is spent before we go throwing buckets of cash at it.

I understand the economic impacts of the various agricultural events and I love horses, so it's a win-win for me. However, the lack of accountability/transparency troubles me. As others have noted, the actual grounds of the fair are in horrendous shape. Why the hell can't something be done to improve those? I would like to see where the money is going outside of new stables and RV/trailer hookups.