I feel like we need to go ahead and put last season behind us and start the 2016-17 thread already, but, as we all know, there is a player whose pending decision to re-sign with the Thunder or go elsewhere has the immediate future of the franchise hanging in the balance.

That player, of course, is Dion Waiters.

So how about a thread for all off-season news (free agent stuff, other acquisitions, etc.) and then someone can start the 2016-17 thread after everything shakes out this summer?

Well that's great. I voted before reading the message.

Throckmorton, you advanced a step without saying 'may I.' :lol2:

Good idea, let's hope we can resign Dion Waiters; we've seen 50% improvement to his overall game--now he needs to work on consistency.

Don't want to get overly optimistic; however, Durant could sign on for more than one year now that he knows the team has the player personnel to compete for a championship. Afterall, this is Durant & Westbrook's team--they've coexisted since OKC's inaugural year in the NBA. K.D. isn't a quitter.

We can also use this thread for summer league news:

The Orlando Summer League will have 10 teams: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orlando-magic/os-orlando-magic-news-0304-20160303-story.html

I did as well but by god, I'll take him (too) for another year!

Waiters is only 24 years old. Has a lot of upside.

Waiters is only 24 years old. Has a lot of upside.

To be fair, he also has some downside. Waiters buckled down defensively in the playoffs and generally played much smarter than he has at any point in his career... Can he sustain those habits? I hope so, but it's a risk.

Is Dion worth Kanter type money? Would the Thunder match an offer like that?

Is Dion worth Kanter type money? Would the Thunder match an offer like that?

My first take was is Kanter worth Kanter type money.

The NBA is a strange animal when it comes to today's salaries based on player worth. Unless there is someone out there that we could sign better than Dion; then Dion is worth Kanter type money;.

It's important to understand that like with Kanter, the Thunder can either sign Dion or they won't be able to spend that money on someone else because of salary cap restrictions. So, it's Dion or nothing on some level. I think the Thunder need to get Dion at about 12 million. If he gets more expensive then they'd have to consider (a) letting him walk or (b) trading Kanter before the deadline.

It's important to understand that like with Kanter, the Thunder can either sign Dion or they won't be able to spend that money on someone else because of salary cap restrictions. So, it's Dion or nothing on some level. I think the Thunder need to get Dion at about 12 million. If he gets more expensive then they'd have to consider (a) letting him walk or (b) trading Kanter before the deadline.

If the Thunder want to keep Durant long-term; they are going to have to spend some money to keep the pieces around him.

Look for the ownership to go over the CAP if you want to keep this core group of Durant, Westbrook, Kanter, Adams, Ibaka & Waiters together.

If the Thunder want to keep Durant long-term; they are going to have to spend some money to keep the pieces around him.

Look for the ownership to go over the CAP if you want to keep this core group of Durant, Westbrook, Kanter, Adams, Ibaka & Waiters together.

There is no NBA franchise that can afford to pay all those guys market value. It won't happen. The only way to keep this team together is for both (a) the Thunder ownership to pay huge amounts AND (b) some players to take below market value. If the latter doesn't happen then some players will have to go. The way the CBA is structured has really worked against the Thunder. For example, there's a good chance the Thunder could be paying more for Kanter and Waiters than the Warriors are paying for Curry and Green. The Warriors just lucked out with timing. The Thunder have to convince some player to take Spurs-esque discounts or some players will have to go.

^^^^^^^^^^
Last time around, Russ pushed away from the table with money (mostly in the form of potential bonuses IIRC) left on the table. I could see him doing the same again to stay with KD and a team situation, just not sure I see KD doing the same.

Russ forgo the Rose rule, which he didn't end up qualifying for anyway. He made the full amount he would have made. Still, it was an important symbolic gesture about sacrificing for the team. KD signed for his full amount, but sacrificed an opt out in his last year.

The Thunder were definitely trying to build a culture of sacrifice like the Spurs. But I'll never blame a player for not sacrificing either. Owners are doing better than ever despite contracts growing...

^^^^^^^
The important part is that he pushed back from the table. The Rose Rule would have made him eligible for 5% more of the cap. Not insignificant money. And all he had to do was ask for it, and he didn't. Even though he didn't end up qualifying, it was hardly a symbolic gesture. It was a very real one.

So a friend pointed out that Westbrook ABSOLUTELY DID qualify for the Rose Rule and would have received the 5% of cap bump based on making the All NBA team the year after his contract. Here is an article clarifying, right after he signed: http://dailythunder.com/2012/01/clarifying-some-confusion-on-westbrooks-contract/ , and here is an article from Yahoo! Sports from this year that mentions that he did qualify (would have required another All-NBA selection after signing; which he ended up getting): http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-rose-rule--why-it-needs-to-change-150439168.html

As the article states, he didn't leave theoretical money on the table. He left REAL money on the table, which ultimately resulted in the team's ability to sign Kanter and to match Portland's offer sheet last year:


One player that missed out on the Rose Rule but eventually met the criteria was Russell Westbrook. When the All-Star signed his rookie extension in January 2012, Westbrook had already met part of the criteria but did not negotiate the clause into his contract. Oklahoma City tabbed Westbrook as their “designated player max.” The tag allowed Westbrook to receive a five-year max extension (not including the fourth year on his rookie scale) while allowing the Thunder to have luxury tax flexibility going forward. The luxury-tax savings allowed the Thunder to eventually trade for Enes Kanter and match the offer sheet Kanter signed with Portland last summer.

In other words, it ended up being MUCH more than a symbolic gesture.

So a friend pointed out that Westbrook ABSOLUTELY DID qualify for the Rose Rule and would have received the 5% of cap bump based on making the All NBA team the year after his contract. Here is an article clarifying, right after he signed: http://dailythunder.com/2012/01/clarifying-some-confusion-on-westbrooks-contract/ , and here is an article from Yahoo! Sports from this year that mentions that he did qualify (would have required another All-NBA selection after signing; which he ended up getting): http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-rose-rule--why-it-needs-to-change-150439168.html

As the article states, he didn't leave theoretical money on the table. He left REAL money on the table, which ultimately resulted in the team's ability to sign Kanter and to match Portland's offer sheet last year:



In other words, it ended up being MUCH more than a symbolic gesture.

You're probably right. I was listening to a recent Down to Dunk podcast (which I highly recommend) and I thought they'd mentioned he hadn't qualified (I'm double checking), but maybe I heard wrong. Regardless, his sacrifice was certainly real at the time and a part of the Spurs culture the Thunder were trying to replicate. Of course, Reggie Jackson was a rude awakening to how difficult that can be as he both demanded a competitive salary (which I don't blame him for and he got significantly more) and also was all about himself, not the team. It's going to be interesting to see if KD re-signs if he makes any sacrifice like last time. I remember him being quoted once as saying he wasn't sure why he didn't demand an opt-out. But he also might realize that just a small sacrifice can really help the team maneuver the salary cap...

It really all is tough deal. NBA players make a lot of money and sacrificing can help them win. But, it's also kind absurd for them to sacrifice when uber-wealthy owners are doing better than they've ever done with an incredibly favorable CBA and cities building their stadiums across the country.

Okay, so I checked with Jon Hamm, who is OKC's resident cap expert, and Russ did NOT meet the criteria for the Rose rule. So, he did not actually sacrifice salary, but as I said above, it's really not that important. It's that players are willing to make small sacrifices to help the team wiggle around salary cap restrictions.

I'm pretty sure Westbrook qualified for the 30% max.

His Rookie contract took place during the 2009 playoff season through the 2012 playoff season.

Derrick Rose Rule:
1. Win the MVP
or 2. Make any All-NBA team twice
or 3. Make the All-Star Game as a starter via fan balloting twice

#1 - No (Never)
#2 - Yes (1st Team - 2016, 2nd Team - 2011, '12, '13, '15)
#3 - No (2016)

If they had written his contract as a Max contract, he would have qualified. They wrote his contract specifically as a 25% contract.

Westbrook had to meet those criteria within specific years and I don't think he did... I'll do some more research, but Jon Hamm is an expert on this complicated stuff...

He signed an extension after his 3rd season, so perhaps if he had signed a max contract extension he was only eligible for the 25% because at the time he had not qualified.

Either way, Russ did not sign a max contract, he signed a designated player, 5-year, 25% contract with no player options. He could have waited for free agency and qualified for the 30% max.

Teo is correct. He qualified by making all-NBA two years in a row. This was confirmed in the Yahoo Sports article I linked, which also pointed out that by him not triggering this the Thunder was able to trade for Kanter and then match Portland's offer sheet for the next season.

Yep, you're correct. My bad. He made NBA second team in the last two years he could to meet the Rose rule criteria.

See you later, Serge.


Royce Young ‏@royceyoung 29m29 minutes ago

OKC has traded Serge Ibaka to the Orlando Magic for Victor Oladipo, Ersan Ilyasova and the rights to Domantis Sabonis.

see you later, serge.

*sniffle* :(

Wow... I am sad to see Ibaka go, but OKC won that trade easily. Another stretch 4 and a solid wing player that will likely start.

I have mixed feelings about the trade from a basketball standpoint, but I'm fairly optimistic. The emergence of Adams, and KD as a defensive 4, made Serge more expendable, but there are some things that will be tough to replace. Serge not only provided rim protection, but was a great fit for OKC because he stretched the floor as a shooter. As crazy as it seems, Serge led all players (50 attempts minimum) in 3 point percentage in the playoffs at 45%. No one else on OKC even shot at a decent clip. I've seen a lot of OKC fans really undervalue Serge today. He's good and does things that really help the Thunder even if he regressed a little.

On the other side, Victor Oladipo is the two-way, athletic shooting guard a lot of Tbunder fans have wanted. Someone pointed out on Twitter that a Russ, Oladipo, Roberson, KD (YES, I'M ASSUMING HE'S BACK!), Adams defensive lineup must strike fear into opposing teams. The one big problem with Oladipo is that he's not a good shooter. In the Warriors series they really just beat OKC from the 3 point (which KD stated), and now the Thunder are even a worse shooting team. Without Serge stretching the floor, OKC's spacing could be really crunched.

The Thunder also added Domantas Sabonis, the son of the great Arvydas Sabonis. He's a promising prospect, but in the short term, I'm not sure he makes a big difference next year... which could be a really important season if KD signs a one year deal. There won't be any waiting on the rookie if that's the case. Here are great breakdowns of his strengths:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzMGFCgMdNI

And weaknesses (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzMGFCgMdNI).

The Thunder also got Ersan Ilyasova, but the Thunder could waive him... or he could start at power forward? He's a stretch 4 with some offensive skills. But he's really bad on defense. I have no clue how he fits into all this. I'm trying to think of a way the Thunder could add a power forward, but they don't have many options. Of course, they're going to go small a lot in the playoffs, but they still need a starting power forward.

So, some other implications:
- Who starts at power forward?!?
- This means that the Thunder likely don't match any Dion Waiters offers. But they also have leverage with him and Roberson now. They have another option so they don't have to accept a bad deal.
- Oladipo is a DC guy who is KD seems to like...

In the end, I have mixed feelings about the trade, but I hope it works out.

And on a personal note, I'll miss Serge. He's been a great professional, citizen, and representative of OKC for his entire career. I hope he does well in Orlando.

Wow... I am sad to see Ibaka go, but OKC won that trade easily. Another stretch 4 and a solid wing player that will likely start.

Agree,

This was a very good trade. Oladipo will keep the pressure on at point guard; good trade that provides the Thunder with an insurance piece in case Waiters goes elsewhere.

See you Serge. Thanks for the memories and thanks for repping OKC with class. Hardest trade for me yet, by a long shot. But on paper it's a good one.

Ersan can also shoot from 3. I'm hoping we stick Kanter in there and go double bigs.

See you Serge. Thanks for the memories and thanks for repping OKC with class. Hardest trade for me yet, by a long shot. But on paper it's a good one.

I'll never forget when the Thunder traded Jeff Green. Even though I'd been an NBA fan my whole life, I'd never really followed a pro team so closely and I really felt bad for Green. Serge was a great representative for OKC. I hope he does well in Orlando.

Well, now some stories are leaking out that Serge wanted out... I noticed some little things this season, but wouldn't have figured that the Thunder would feel a need to trade him.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/thunder-try-to-sustain-success-by-calling-unhappy-serge-ibakas-bluff/

Ersan can also shoot from 3.

Definitely going to be interesting to see how the Thunder use Ilyasova if they don't buy him out. He's definitely a good shooter, but not a great defender. He'll go compliment Adams a lot better than Kanter.

See you Serge. Thanks for the memories and thanks for repping OKC with class. Hardest trade for me yet, by a long shot. But on paper it's a good one.

I agree with this. I loved Serge and really hope Orlando is a good spot for him.

.

Wish Serge the best!

Against, the rest of the league . . .
.

From Serge's Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/p/BHCydszhz5S/):

sergeibaka9Time flies. 7 years in Oklahoma City, a place where I grew up, became the player I am today, competed with a great team and made great friends. A place I can call home. Thank you state of Oklahoma and your wonderful people. Thank you @okcthunder, staff, employees, teammates and fans. You will be in my heart forever.

Sad to see him go. Hard not to be a fan favorite.

The production we got out of him the year before his contrat for the amount of money we paid him was straight up criminal.

He's a very good player and if were not for Adams, this trade would have never happened. People are saying OKC definitely won this trade, and I think OKC made a great move. That doesn't necessarily mean that Orlando made a bad 1.

The biggest reason that I think this is a great move is because Serge is unrestricted next year and Oladipo is restricted. So the Thunder aren't going to have to try and recover in Free Agency if the player is not going to remain. Free Agency is the biggest area that Presti/OKC has struggled in.

Sad to see him go. Hard not to be a fan favorite.

The production we got out of him the year before his contrat for the amount of money we paid him was straight up criminal.

He's a very good player and if were not for Adams, this trade would have never happened. People are saying OKC definitely won this trade, and I think OKC made a great move. That doesn't necessarily mean that Orlando made a bad 1.

The biggest reason that I think this is a great move is because Serge is unrestricted next year and Oladipo is restricted. So the Thunder aren't going to have to try and recover in Free Agency if the player is not going to remain. Free Agency is the biggest area that Presti/OKC has struggled in.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find an Magic fan that liked that trade, but I get your point.

How Kevin Durant could make an extra $100 million by signing a 1-year contract

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/6/28/12050498/kevin-durant-contract-salary-money-nba-free-agent-rumors?yptr=yahoo

.
Report: Thunder trying to open cap space to make room for Al Horford

http://clutchpoints.com/report-thunder-trying-to-open-cap-space-to-make-room-for-al-horford/

Billy Donovan use to coach Al Horflord - Power Forward; Ibaka's position.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/16632158/2016-nba-free-agency-oklahoma-city-thunder-looking-land-al-horford-too

Things are still pointing positively for KD to at least sign a one year deal... But if the Thunder pulled off Horford it would be unreal. Horford is the second best free agent to KD and would be a fantastic fit. The Thunder would have to get rid of Kanter and Waiters among others... Obviously, it's a long shot, but it's fun to think about.

I really like Kanter, but I also like Horford (usually cheer for Hawks in east). Sick starting line up if they pull it off.

What I would like to see if KD sign a one year with a one year option and waive the second year and sign a long term contract for less than max money. I know that won't happen because he will be offered max on both deals and will take it, but about every other major player has sacrificed themselves, financially, for the team to make everything work. RW gave up about $15 million when he could have made more under the Rose rule, Ibaka could have gotten more that $12 million/year back in 2012. Collison signed a front loaded contract in 2010 for $13.3 million for the first year but only $3.7MM per year from 2011-2014, knowing OKC had to resign RW, KD, Serge, Harden and Jeff Green through out that time frame. Jackson and Harden were not willing to sacrifice financially for the team so Presti sent them packing. RW and Collison are the only players who's contracts expires next season without a team or player option. CO, Adams, Roberson, Payne, McGary and Huestis all have options with VO, Adams and Roberson as restricted FA. RW, VO and Adams are all integral parts of the team and KD leaving money on the table to keep the team together would bode well for moral and what he is willing to give up for others. Again, not going to happen, but it would look really good and set a precedent for the following year if he did.

First, KD did sacrifice on his first contract by not including a player opt-out for his 5th year, which was significant. Second, I don't think KD should be expected to "sacrifice" at all. If there was a real free market then KD could probably command more than $50 million a year. Which people on this board "sacrifice" for their company? I'm just not a fan of the logic personally, especially when the CBA is so owner-centric.

But if KD wanted to do it... Yeah, it's help. ;)

First, KD did sacrifice on his first contract by not including a player opt-out for his 5th year, which was significant. Second, I don't think KD should be expected to "sacrifice" at all. If there was a real free market then KD could probably command more than $50 million a year. Which people on this board "sacrifice" for their company? I'm just not a fan of the logic personally, especially when the CBA is so owner-centric.

But if KD wanted to do it... Yeah, it's help. ;)

I didn't take into consideration his non=player option for this past year. Not sure if it would have done much since he would have probably done the same thing this year considering the cap is going up.

Not sure who on this board sacrifices for their company, but most don't make millions of dollars every year.

Still not sure why KD, and not owners, should sacrifice. KD is already dramatically underpaid. I just don't think it's fair to ask him to fix the cap system the owners created... That's what owners wanted though - players sacrificing money they deserve. KD deserves every penny he can get. If he wants to take a discount, great... But their shouldn't be pressure or obligation at all in my opinion.

Still not sure why KD, and not owners, should sacrifice. KD is already dramatically underpaid. I just don't think it's fair to ask him to fix the cap system the owners created... That's what owners wanted though - players sacrificing money they deserve. KD deserves every penny he can get. If he wants to take a discount, great... But their shouldn't be pressure or obligation at all in my opinion.

Not arguing that, just wishing, that's all. When LeBron went to Miami, he, Bosh and Wade took a pay cut to play together and win championships. That is the only thing I ever appreciated about that decision. He left money on the table to put together a supporting cast and win a couple of championships.

Now, back to Thunder off season news. Not sure how I feel about getting rid of Kanter to get Horford. Kanter is 24 years old and averaged 13pts and 8 rebs in 21 minutes. Horford is 30 and averaged 15 & 7 in 32 minutes. I know he is significantly better on defense, but the upside of Adams and Kanter in the post is very appealing.

I just would hate to see KD in the same position Lebron is in right now: Cleveland is already over the cap just lost Mozgov and JR Smith is next (they can't even offer him $10M/year, and JR Smith will easily bring $15M/year for 3 years). The only reason that roster wins Home Court is because of Lebron James. Losing JR Smith severely depletes their chances of repeating.

If he "leaves money on the table" and takes a 5-year max with OKC right now, that's much easier to avoid, especially if it brings Horford in.

Not arguing that, just wishing, that's all. When LeBron went to Miami, he, Bosh and Wade took a pay cut to play together and win championships. That is the only thing I ever appreciated about that decision. He left money on the table to put together a supporting cast and win a couple of championships.

Now, back to Thunder off season news. Not sure how I feel about getting rid of Kanter to get Horford. Kanter is 24 years old and averaged 13pts and 8 rebs in 21 minutes. Horford is 30 and averaged 15 & 7 in 32 minutes. I know he is significantly better on defense, but the upside of Adams and Kanter in the post is very appealing.

Kanter will not be on the roster after this season. He simply doesn't fit.

He's 7'0" with slow feet and cannot play power forward for 20+ minutes per game in today's NBA. He's not in OKC's future. We brought him in as insurance against Adams development and because he's a great assett. Tons of teams would love to have them on their team for under $20M/year. But he's not particularly useful to the Thunder.

Bringing in Horford probably wins you at least 2 of the next 4 championships.

Kanter will not be on the roster after this season. He simply doesn't fit.

He's 7'0" with slow feet and cannot play power forward for 20+ minutes per game in today's NBA. He's not in OKC's future. We brought him in as insurance against Adams development and because he's a great assett. Tons of teams would love to have them on their team for under $20M/year. But he's not particularly useful to the Thunder.

Bringing in Horford probably wins you at least 2 of the next 4 championships.

Would you start Horford at PF and Adams at Center or would Adams be the backup to Horford?

Horford is dramatically better than Kanter because while Kanter is a very bad defender, Horford is good. Horford is also a way better passer. He is older, but he's a lot better.

In short, the market is a good indicator of value. To get rid of Kanter the Thunder might have to give up an asset. He has very little value on the market even though I think the Thunder used him well and he benefitted the team this season. On the other hand, Horford is sought by half the league.

Given the choice, Horford would be a substantial upgrade to Kanter...

Yes, Horford would start at PF.

And Kanter is on a marketable contract and would probably bring back a protected draft pick. Mosgov is making about the same money and is about equally or more flawed (though in other ways).

..If he "leaves money on the table" and takes a 5-year max with OKC right now, that's much easier to avoid, especially if it brings Horford in.

I saw a breakdown the other day that shows the difference between signing a 5 year max deal today or instead doing the two year deal with player option and then signing a five year as a ten year player under new cap works out to upwards of $80 million to KD's personal bottom line.

Hoping someone will leave a few million here or there to make it easier to put pieces around him? Perfectly reasonable. Expecting someone to forgo many tens of millions...generational family wealth? It's a reality disconnect.

It is so incredibly ridiculous and far-fetched that he would do that. Why are we even talking about the possibility? It's nonsensical. And honestly, pretty disrespectful to the player to expect for him to think like that.

Look, I don't want him to take less for OKC's sake specifically. I want him to be able to win multiple championships, because his legacy and his post-retirement income are greatly affected by the number he tallies in that singular category.

If he takes the 1+1 and does the full 5-year, 35% max in 2017, I wouldn't fault him remotely. I have ZERO expectation for him to take less than the max and if I were him, with his talent I'd probably do the same.

Horford signing with the Celtics is concerning.

Horford signing with the Celtics is concerning.
I guess we'll see how true the rumor is that KD really wants to play with Horford.

Welp.

RIP title window. :((

Tough day for OKC. This makes it very unlikely Westbrook stays too... If that's the case I wouldn't be surprised to see the Thunder trade Westbrook to get value.


We may have seen the best era of OKC basketball just pass us by... Getting superstars in the NBA is incredibly hard.

Gone to the Warriors. Just my opinion, but this is the most chickens**t route he could have taken. He'll certainly get a ring there so I guess that's what is most important to him.

Good test to see how well the fans support the team. The Thunder are in rebuild mode now.