Yeah, it is a lot of power for politicians to give up. However, OKC could do some form of it city-wide or even localized. If the whole state did it the results would be amazing though. No income tax, no franchise fees, no toll roads, no fuel tax, no corporate taxes, no sales taxes, free mass transit, etc...

All admirable outcomes.

What bars a city wide implemententation is cities only having the authority to tax sales that the state taxes.

If OKC decided to try a tax like that on a local level the state legislature would ban it in an instant.

Returning this thread to its original topic, there is very little chance this land is sold by the current owners to another group or individual. Pat Salame began this project, has done an outstanding job of acquiring properties and has the backing of >90% of current investors in Strawberry Fields. It may be moving slowly, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Returning this thread to its original topic, there is very little chance this land is sold by the current owners to another group or individual. Pat Salame began this project, has done an outstanding job of acquiring properties and has the backing of >90% of current investors in Strawberry Fields. It may be moving slowly, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Agree. I'm not sure how quickly would absorb and support a fully built out Strawberry Fields.

All admirable outcomes.

What bars a city wide implemententation is cities only having the authority to tax sales that the state taxes.

Yep. Without buy in from the State the full benefit would never be realized. Sadly, it would be revenue neutral for the State, but not power/authority neutral. Anyhow, I've said enough on this subject so back to Strawberry Fields it is.

Agree. I'm not sure how quickly would absorb and support a fully built out Strawberry Fields.

I guess they would actually have to build something to see how fast the market absorbs it. If I had $1.5 million wrapped up in this I would want my money back too, so I could invest in any of the other dozen projects actually getting done.

It may be moving slowly, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I don't mind slow, but I just wish they'd get started on at least one mixed use properties facing the park. Those initial developments will be a boon to the public investment and likely create more excitement for the rest of their developments. They've certainly had plenty of time to at least start construction on one development by now. Sorry, this and the old Ford site drive me crazy.

The element of OKC that is both the most frustrating yet simultaneously the most liberating is the sheer amount of vacant land in the heart of the core. I bet 90 out of 100 cities would kill for this problem. However, it does create this sort of "windswept tumbleweed" feeling when you see so much of it. Whenever I come home to visit I notice this and I've worried about this in the past with respect to grand dreams on the COOP site. Too much going at once and the market won't absorb the vacancy, or, possibly worse, cheap things like big boxes will get built. Every new piece of infill that adds to the density of Midtown/Auto Alley and starts to round out those empty blocks makes me slightly less worried about this.

So, in my ideal world, they might get going with two or three pieces of strictly Parkside stuff in Strawberry Fields, but if the rest of it takes 10 years and the existing Downtown districts finish getting built out in the meantime, that would be acceptable.

^

Every single city has huge chunks of vacant or drastically underutilized property in its core.

And it's not due to urban renewal bulldozers, it's down to people moving out of the cities post WWII and the rise of the suburbs and independent school districts. I always like to point out the huge, gaping holes in Midtown that date back to the 70s: zero of that was due to urban renewal. It was abandonment and neglect and lack of demand and then slow rot and private demolitions.

Urban renewal had almost nothing to do with the Strawberry Fields area, either.

It takes a very long time and billions and billions to even make a dent in those holes. I'm sure OKC has spent a trillion $ in public and private funds in and around the core over just the last 30 years and we still have holes everywhere. And it's not just OKC; when I worked in downtown LA in the early 00s the area around Staples Center was almost completely vacant and it was far worse before they built that arena.

Pete, I hear you. I was not making a comment on Urban Renewal. I know that urban renewal bulldozers did not clear the Strawberry Fields area. And I know it didn't clear the Midtown area. "White flight" and abandonment did. I can't speak to every major city, to be sure. And there is a difference in vacant and underutilized. St. Louis for example is chock-full of challenged blocks with the crumbling remnants of the built environment. Is it better to have thousands of vacant buildings all in the hands of hundreds of absentee property owners or larger swaths of vacant land that can be more easily assembled into bigger parcels? I think OKC is lucky.

But none of that was my point. My point is that as relates to the core, filling out existing districts and achieving density and completeness is preferable to doing some things in one area, some things in another area and it taking forever for any one neighborhood to coalesce. I meant, if Strawberry Fields got its act together and started building with abandon right away, I wouldn't pitch a fit but I would wonder about the health of the endeavor.

^ Well said...

I don't mind slow, but I just wish they'd get started on at least one mixed use properties facing the park. Those initial developments will be a boon to the public investment and likely create more excitement for the rest of their developments. They've certainly had plenty of time to at least start construction on one development by now. Sorry, this and the old Ford site drive me crazy.

Everytime I take the dog for a walk at sissortail, I see these two locations and it is irritating.

Slow is one thing and somewhat understandable.

What compromises their credibility is a bunch of announcements about projects ready to start, then absolutely nothing happening.

They went to the Oklahoman to promote this project over five years ago and said they would be starting in a few months:
Strawberry Fields: Five-story building will kick off planned extensive development along new Oklahoma City Boulevard (https://www.oklahoman.com/story/business/columns/steve-lackmeyer/2018/02/18/strawberry-fields-story-building-kick-planned-extensive-development-along-oklahoma-city-boulevard/60542643007/)

There is no reason they can't start on the renovation of the few small buildings they don't plan to tear down. They've had the plans drawn for years now and they don't need $16 million in infrastructure to renovate a building.

They also had tax liens on 93 of their properties for a while and had their website temporarily go inactive. Now, they are late on their taxes again and are being sued by 20+ investors.


There is ample hard evidence to cause concern and people will continue to question them until they actually do something.

^ I agree, kinda wish Randy Hogan or Gary Brooks got a hold of that property, we would had something great by now.

Bold prediction:. If nothing starts by May 3rd it will be 2nd quarter 2025 before anything else happens.

I don't think that's a particularly bold prediction on this project. It'd be far more surprising if they started work than if they kept doing nothing.

May 3rd is going to be the drop dead date for a lot of unstarted projects.

May 3rd is going to be the drop dead date for a lot of unstarted projects.

Why this arbitrary date?

Why this arbitrary date?

The Fed will release their 3rd interest rate increase of 2023 on this date. I'm expecting it to be a significant increase.

The Fed will release their 3rd interest rate increase of 2023 on this date. I'm expecting it to be a significant increase.

It’s almost certainly going to be a .25 point increase and that’s not enough to shut down major projects, given the developers and financiers of those projects have, unless they are stunningly incompetent, taken into account the Fed rate increases, which have been telegraphed transparently for nearly a year.

It will be more than .25 in March and May. The Fed has finally figured out they can't slow roll the inflation. They have to stop new loans being created so the money supply can pause.

Strawberry Fields for... Never.

Why this arbitrary date?

Yea, if your stuff is not locked in, you’re pretty much going to be sol for the next couple of years. Interestingly though, you’ll see a property here or there that has an assumable note. Could definitely make deals like that cashflow.

Strawberry Fields for... Never.

Mash that Like button!

According to a recent court filing, all owners paid $1,000 for a share in Strawberry Fields.

Yeah, I'm sure some of the people who bought a share will look at that thousand dollars and shrug. But others who looked at this like their first forego into investing, people who are trying to learn how to let their money work for them, this thousand dollars was a move based on faith and good will. So yeah, if I'm putting a thousand dollars on shares of any kind, I better see fruit of it. The developers knew this was wrong, you can't just lead people on and expect them to accept things as they are. If they wanted to see growth and they trusted you to do so, you need to deliver on that.

I may not know what's going on behind the closed doors of this group, but they need to do better than to potentially take people's money and squirrel it off somewhere where the value don't appreciate. Either make something happen or refund what was given to you. Don't leave this open to a class action lawsuit, because that's more of everyone's time and money wasted.

Yeah, I'm sure some of the people who bought a share will look at that thousand dollars and shrug. But others who looked at this like their first forego into investing, people who are trying to learn how to let their money work for them, this thousand dollars was a move based on faith and good will. So yeah, if I'm putting a thousand dollars on shares of any kind, I better see fruit of it. The developers knew this was wrong, you can't just lead people on and expect them to accept things as they are. If they wanted to see growth and they trusted you to do so, you need to deliver on that.

I may not know what's going on behind the closed doors of this group, but they need to do better than to potentially take people's money and squirrel it off somewhere where the value don't appreciate. Either make something happen or refund what was given to you. Don't leave this open to a class action lawsuit, because that's more of everyone's time and money wasted.There is so much wrong with this statement that I don't know where to begin.

First, I doubt that this was anyone's "first forego into investing," especially the small group of disgruntled investors who are suing Strawberry Fields. You think the Nutts didn't know what they were getting into? Trust me, they did; they just do not agree with the decisions made since their investment and may just want or need their capital returned, for reasons unknown.

Second, the investment brochure provided to Strawberry Fields investors clearly outlined that there would not be dividends or capital returns until development began and income was generated. Those monies went to the purchase of additional properties, one specifically being the old Blumenthal Transmissions building(s). The brochure also stated that the purchase of shares in the investment fund did not give individual/minor investors the authority to "call the shots" as to development decisions made by Pat Salame, Gary Bastin, the Andersons, and other principal/major investors in the project.

Third, NO ONE has lost money on this deal, at least in regards to their capital investment of $1,000 per share. The land that Strawberry Fields purchased with these funds has only increased in value, and most likely at a higher rate of return than would have been found in other more traditional investment arenas like the stock market, commodities, etc.

I consider myself a fairly educated investor and reviewed the brochure at the time of the initial offering. I believed that there was a potential for SIGNIFICANT returns on the investment but that the time frame to see returns was outside my liking, so I purchased individual properties elsewhere on my own. I regret that decision. Again, the plaintiffs in the current action represent less than 7% of outstanding shares in the group. That speaks volumes, at least in my mind.

If I am wrong (which I am in this case), I am proud to admit it and will continue to learn more in my future endeavors. Meanwhile, I'm just spouting from my own viewpoint as a person getting their toes wet in investing. I'm really looking forward to learning more about this stuff as we go along.

However, I just don't like it when there are projects and renders put out there and nothing's even dug up yet. I'm sure the investors are happy that their values appreciated greatly over the course of time, but I'm probably just anxious for some ground to get stirred up in this area. It feels like everything west of the park adjacent is just operating like spare parking space.

If I am wrong (which I am in this case), I am proud to admit it and will continue to learn more in my future endeavors. Meanwhile, I'm just spouting from my own viewpoint as a person getting their toes wet in investing. I'm really looking forward to learning more about this stuff as we go along.

However, I just don't like it when there are projects and renders put out there and nothing's even dug up yet. I'm sure the investors are happy that their values appreciated greatly over the course of time, but I'm probably just anxious for some ground to get stirred up in this area. It feels like everything west of the park adjacent is just operating like spare parking space.

Just getting into investing eh? Let me tell you about options :evilsmile

I don’t think many newbs are buying $1,000/share investments in real estate. They are probably buying $5-40/share Fortune 500 companies on E*Trade.

According to a recent court filing, all owners paid $1,000 for a share in Strawberry Fields.

Do you know if there was a minimum number of shares required to be purchased?

Do you know if there was a minimum number of shares required to be purchased?

Based on the ownership roles, the lowest amount is 5 shares.

BTW, while it may be technically correct to say the suing parties only own about 7% of Strawberry Fields, that is also misleading.

The large majority is owned by Salame and an initial investor or two and their shares were granted after contributing property that was purchased before they sold shares to other investors at $1,000 per.

The 22 investors were subsequently solicited and paid that $1K price; 15 are party to the lawsuit filed. Those 15 investors represent 95% of the outstanding shares not held by Salame and the original group. Two of them own well over half of those 2,081 shares.

So, it appears that almost everyone that bought shares from the original group is very unhappy. Salame and Strawberry Fields LLC have filed to dismiss their lawsuit and I'm sure the plaintiffs will respond with more details about their concerns.

Imagine the truckloads of 2x4s and drywall you could buy with those lawyer fees. OKC deserves better elites.

In the on-going lawsuit against Pat Salame and Strawberry Fields brought by over 20 investors, the plaintiffs have filed an amended petition after Salame had filed a motion to dismiss.

I've highlighted the key points below.

Salame responded in the Oklahoman along with one of the main investors to say: 1) everything has been handled with professionalism, transparency and integrity; and 2) the plaintiffs only own a small percentage of Strawberry Fields.

Piecing all this together, it may be technically true that this group collectively owns only 7% of Strawberry Fields Inc., but that is far from the full story.

Salame and a handful of original investors own a bunch of other LLC's that has acquired and has plans to develop within the boundaries of what is being called Strawberry Fields.

Also, there is some sort of opaque arrangement with Fred Mazaheri whereby property he owns (such as the former Goodwill site, but there are others) will be part of Strawberry Fields. Mazaheri is contractually obligated to develop the Goodwill parcel in the very near future and has already missed key deadlines – such as submitting plans – that according to the agreement with the City should result in escalating fines.

In looking at public records within the boundaries of this proposed development, there are at least a dozen different entities that own property in this area.

I don't claim to know the full truth of this matter as I've reached out to some of the plaintiffs and they have not responded (pretty typical with pending litigation), but it's obvious there is much more to this than the superficial brush-off the Oklahoman printed on Salame's behalf.

As far as the impact on Oklahoma City and any development in that area, the plaintiffs are seeking to stop anything from going forward until this matter is decided in court.

The $16 million TIF award is still pending final approval and that may be impacted as well. Salame as manager of the group has yet to pay any of the 2022 property taxes on the dozens of properties owned.


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Not shocked someone is asking and will probably receive a large amount of TIF money when they cant even pay property taxes on time. Maybe instead of buying lots of non-income producing properties at a premium with no immediate plans, they should sell some of those off to help fund actual development, and to keep up with their tax bills.

Not shocked someone is asking and will probably receive a large amount of TIF money when they cant even pay property taxes on time. Maybe instead of buying lots of non-income producing properties at a premium with no immediate plans, they should sell some of those off to help fund actual development, and to keep up with their tax bills.
What a novel concept!

You never know the real truth behind these types of lawsuits but I worry about the long-term prospects of this huge, key area.

Long before this, the whole way this had unfolded always seemed strange.

Maybe the conflict is what has been holding things up all along. The best-case scenario is this gets resolved and then things start to move forward. But I'm not holding my breath.

You never know the real truth behind these types of lawsuits but I worry about the long-term prospects of this huge, key area.

Long before this, the whole way this had unfolded always seemed strange.

Maybe the conflict is what has been holding things up all along. The best-case scenario is this gets resolved and then things start to move forward. But I'm not holding my breath.

I hate that there is nothing we can do to change this, or have put any pressure on them to develop something. I am not advocating for just development for developments sake, like a value tax would do. But something to entice quality, timely development.

As part of the contract with Mazaheri, he is obligated to develop the Goodwill tract within a certain timeframe that he is never going to meet. He hasn't even started the planning process.

Forcing development is tricky and if someone wants to fight whatever a municipality tries to enforce, it's shaky legal ground and often the owner will just challenge in court and claim financial hardship, the pandemic, rising construction costs, rising interest rates, and any number of excuses.

Makes it very hard to enforce and I still don't understand what is going on with the Mazahri property because the city is going out of its way to only provide vague non-answers.


At this point and time, the climate around the country is very slanted toward big business and the wealthy. And nowhere is that more evident than in Oklahoma (TIF, incentives, etc.).

Sounds like they had their own "Founders Well" program. Classic OKC.

As part of the contract with Mazaheri, he is obligated to develop the Goodwill tract within a certain timeframe that he is never going to meet. He hasn't even started the planning process.

Forcing development is tricky and if someone wants to fight whatever a municipality tries to enforce, it's shaky legal ground and often the owner will just challenge in court and claim financial hardship, the pandemic, rising construction costs, rising interest rates, and any number of excuses.

Makes it very hard to enforce and I still don't understand what is going on with the Mazahri property because the city is going out of its way to only provide vague non-answers.


At this point and time, the climate around the country is very slanted toward big business and the wealthy. And nowhere is that more evident than in Oklahoma (TIF, incentives, etc.).

While l agree about the country's slant toward the wealthy, you act as though OK is the only place that uses TIF & incentives! Pete, TIFs cost you and taxpayers NOTHING. They simply transfer lower tax revenues on a piece of property to other types of tax revenues, hopefully, at a greater flow.

Using one of your favorite examples, l would be willing to bet $1 that the COSTCO up north generates FAR more tax revenue in sales taxes and property tax revenue (from surrounding support business) than it ever would have as a mish-mosh of strip shops and/or apartments.

Would COSTCO have come to OKC without a TIF? Probably, eventually, but they might only now giving it serious thought and it might have been in Edmond instread. It's an investment to forgo a little current tax flow for the promise of a bigger tax flow later.

While l agree about the country's slant toward the wealthy, you act as though OK is the only place that uses TIF & incentives! Pete, TIFs cost you and taxpayers NOTHING. They simply transfer lower tax revenues on a piece of property to other types of tax revenues, hopefully, at a greater flow.

Using one of your favorite examples, l would be willing to bet $1 that the COSTCO up north generates FAR more tax revenue in sales taxes and property tax revenue (from surrounding support business) than it ever would have as a mish-mosh of strip shops and/or apartments.

Would COSTCO have come to OKC without a TIF? Probably, eventually, but they might only now giving it serious thought and it might have been in Edmond instread. It's an investment to forgo a little current tax flow for the promise of a bigger tax flow later.

So many falsehoods here I'm not even going to debate.

While l agree about the country's slant toward the wealthy, you act as though OK is the only place that uses TIF & incentives! Pete, TIFs cost you and taxpayers NOTHING. They simply transfer lower tax revenues on a piece of property to other types of tax revenues, hopefully, at a greater flow.

Using one of your favorite examples, l would be willing to bet $1 that the COSTCO up north generates FAR more tax revenue in sales taxes and property tax revenue (from surrounding support business) than it ever would have as a mish-mosh of strip shops and/or apartments.

Would COSTCO have come to OKC without a TIF? Probably, eventually, but they might only now giving it serious thought and it might have been in Edmond instread. It's an investment to forgo a little current tax flow for the promise of a bigger tax flow later.

Costs the school system (county health, libraries or anyone else who receives ad valorem money) by not getting the natural funding increase they would ordinarily get. You could say school children and parents pay for that in some way. Plus overuse of TIFs artificially inflate property prices. There have been downtown properties for sale before where the seller is literally using TIF potential as a selling point because of the high selling price.

Theres been studies out there that compare big boxes like a Walmart vs mixed use denser development and the higher property values and sales taxes on a per square foot basis is higher from mish mosh of shops and apartments. That costco is on 16.5 acres and taxable value of $13,335,000. Nothing particularly high for 16 acres. Of course it brings in tons of sales taxes but so do non-tif Home Depots, Walmarts, Targets, etc.

Costco didn't get TIF.

Like other retailers and businesses, there are other incentives provided to them, such as job creation funds and property tax rebates.

In OKC, TIF has only been used in the central city and I've outlined how it works here:

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=39599&p=847605#post847605

Happy to report that it looks like Strawberry Fields has now paid its property taxes for 2022.

Happy to report that it looks like Strawberry Fields has now paid its property taxes for 2022.

Wonderful news, now they can safely sit on the properties and do nothing for another year

Oh what joy it is to sit and let undeveloped land develop further into undeveloped land. It's like pressing "b" at the moment your pokemon looks to evolve.

With the huge amount of vacant land in the core, it's kind of a good thing we have some that are spoken for but not doing anything. This artificially makes some of the available lots to develop more attractive to denser development. Those denser lots will only drive higher values for these lots which when developed will be able to justify denser developments of their own. If we want to keep building up we need some artificial throttle on the available land supply. No, it's not exciting but it allows the market to digest these properties a bit better.

Oh what joy it is to sit and let undeveloped land develop further into undeveloped land. It's like pressing "b" at the moment your pokemon looks to evolve.

:lol2:

What a reference!!!! What a time to be alive when Pokemon makes its way into a discussion about urban development :lol2:

Wonderful news, now they can safely sit on the properties and do nothing for another year

What would you have them do, build unneeded commercial office space? Add another hotel to an area that doesn't need or warrant it? Build upscale apartments that probably wouldn't provide adequate cashflow for years?

Absent the pandemic, I have no doubt that there would have been some movement in Strawberry Fields. But this isn't just one corner in Bricktown or Midtown or a couple lots in the Innovation District. This is a massive piece of land that requires careful deliberation, planning, and plenty of capital. Better that they wait and do it right then shoot from the hip and screw it up.

What would you have them do, build unneeded commercial office space? Add another hotel to an area that doesn't need or warrant it? Build upscale apartments that probably wouldn't provide adequate cashflow for years?

Absent the pandemic, I have no doubt that there would have been some movement in Strawberry Fields. But this isn't just one corner in Bricktown or Midtown or a couple lots in the Innovation District. This is a massive piece of land that requires careful deliberation, planning, and plenty of capital. Better that they wait and do it right then shoot from the hip and screw it up.

I would have them build a mix use neighborhood starting with residential. They have had years maybe even a decade to consider the options and build in a way that makes money. The leadership of the organization is weak and their own shareholders are sueing them.

I would have the ownership group be heroic and not timid. Everything they need to be successful in place except for the will to take a chance.

I would have them build a mix use neighborhood starting with residential. They have had years maybe even a decade to consider the options and build in a way that makes money. The leadership of the organization is weak and their own shareholders are sueing them.

I would have the ownership group be heroic and not timid. Everything they need to be successful in place except for the will to take a chance.

And 7% interest rates, and a global pandemic going on when rates were lower. I agree, something needs to happen. But settling for piss-poor development just because you want something done isn't going to help anything.

Better not developed than developed poorly.

And 7% interest rates, and a global pandemic going on when rates were lower. I agree, something needs to happen. But settling for piss-poor development just because you want something done isn't going to help anything.

Better not developed than developed poorly.

They had the land a plan when interest rates were historically low before the pandemic, check the date of the first post in this thread. I don't know why there are people covering for their track record unless they are part of the ownership group or employed by them. If someone is part of the ownership group and they can account for the confusion and delay surrounding Strawberry Fields, then I would love to hear an honest account of why the development has turned out this way and what the plans are to turn it around. Until I hear the answers to these questions my opinion will remain unchanged.

They had the land a plan when interest rates were historically low before the pandemic, check the date of the first post in this thread. I don't know why there are people covering for their track record unless they are part of the ownership group or employed by them. If someone is part of the ownership group and they can account for the confusion and delay surrounding Strawberry Fields, then I would love to hear an honest account of why the development has turned out this way and what the plans are to turn it around. Until I hear the answers to these questions my opinion will remain unchanged.

Did I say I was covering for them? I said something needs to happen. But rushing a development now isn't the answer. And selling these parcels would take years and years. And I am not affiliated with them in any way. Not defending them either. But I also know I have no power to change anything, no matter what I do. So I choose to not take it personally that they haven't developed this land yet.

It seems the obvious solution to the litigation would be to just buy out the shares of the plaintiffs.

Salame & Co. have made a point to say they only own a small percentage, so if that is the case, why not refund their money with a little extra and get down the road?

Something is not right here and I'm afraid it's going to take a while for things to get sorted and start moving forward.

And 7% interest rates, and a global pandemic going on when rates were lower. I agree, something needs to happen. But settling for piss-poor development just because you want something done isn't going to help anything.

Better not developed than developed poorly.This, 1000%.

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/4qzewXJIgsxzVNUk.H_O0g--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTg2NA--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the-oklahoman/70d3bc7283e8c437007a7e184da8e981

Don't know if the above map is an old or recent plan; however Is there anything that could kick-start the SF development.

Given what has happened here over the last 5-10 years, why would anyone have any confidence that this ownership group would be able to develop this gigantic plot of land in a way that would represent a positive outcome for the city? The best outcome may well be that they spin their wheels for another decade and then eventually sell to someone who actually knows what they are doing. It’s not like there aren’t plenty of other vacant lots near the CBD to develop in the meantime.

I went by this site last week. It seems as though the optimistic signage promoting this project is no longer standing.