Don't tease me! I was for sure this was a dead deal for a long time to come.

Seems strange to me you would announce such a large scale project when you don't have key pieces of the land secured you are proposing using in the project. Just a thought.

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I really hope this development aims to have protected bike lanes. This IMO is vital to the success of the area since no where in the city do we see protected bike lanes like this

Seems strange to me you would announce such a large scale project when you don't have key pieces of the land secured you are proposing using in the project. Just a thought.

Where did you get the they don't have these areas owned?

Glad to see some buildings being kept

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I really hope this development aims to have protected bike lanes. This IMO is vital to the success of the area since no where in the city do we see protected bike lanes like this
I was just thinking a large network of bike lanes would be cool here but who will improve the streets? Can they get TIF money to do it? This is actually a case where I’d support TIF to improve infrastructure. I also hope they bury the utility lines.

Pete, are we sure they own all the land you have outlined in red? I could swear I rode through that area in the spring and saw a bunch of relator signs on individual plots where houses used to be.

I wish they were starting closer to the park. Build on the active use in that area by creating additional attractions within non-intimidating walking distance.

I mean, I'd walk that far, but I'm willing to walk by empty fields and warehouses. Random park-goers aren't even going to know there's stuff to visit that many blocks over and probably wouldn't walk the unfriendly route if they knew.

I agree with you David, I will definitely visit the project, but maybe they could build a nice sidewalk to help bring people from the park.

That helps.

Thinking a bit more on what we are seeing here, I also wish there was a bit more building frontage right up against the park, less of those semi-suburban setbacks.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what is going on with the buildings along Hudson. Very odd IMO.

I was just thinking a large network of bike lanes would be cool here but who will improve the streets? Can they get TIF money to do it? This is actually a case where I’d support TIF to improve infrastructure. I also hope they bury the utility lines.

2017 Go Bonds Better Streets, Safer City 10-year, $967 million, should take care of those streets, bike lanes, signage; just need to follow-up to make sure the bike lanes are included--so far that hasn't been a problem. Hope they can pull from those funds or left over MAPS surplus funds.

VeloCity: Better Streets, Safer City program makes progress - https://www.velocityokc.com/blog/inside-okc/better-streets-safer-city-program-makes-progress/?back=super_blog

If discussion about the buildings along Hudson is referring to all of the midrise buildings, those are purely conceptual, and not any specific proposals. It's very unlikely that anything remotely like that will get built. Note that
Social Capital isn't even depicted.

They posted on their FB page where they tore down a fairly large blue and white commercial building, saying it's preparation for their first project.

^

The recent demolitions are shown right in the center of this photo I took today:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/strawberry121121bb.jpg

They are mandated by the sales agreement with the city to start relatively soon on the old Goodwill parcel on the boulevard immediately west of the park.

We should see some plan for that in the near future.

Is Strawberry Fields associated with Hilltop Plaza?
Or maybe the Strawberry Fields no longer includes Goodwill because of https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=45479

Is Strawberry Fields associated with Hilltop Plaza?
Or maybe the Strawberry Fields no longer includes Goodwill because of https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=45479

Yes, Hilltop Plaza is an LLC owned by Fred Maraheri.

Mazaheri is part of the Strawberry Fields group that is hoping to develop that entire area.

Yes, Hilltop Plaza is an LLC owned by Fred Maraheri.

Mazaheri is part of the Strawberry Fields group that is hoping to develop that entire area.


How many more years must the citizens of Oklahoma City wait to fully enjoy the public investment that is sissortail park.

Given the lack of private development around the park and adjacent to the street car we should ignore any private consultant report that says you will get X new private investment for spending Y public funds.

This isnt to say that the central park isnt a benefit to the public by itself, but the private development next to this prime real estate is pathetic to date.

How many more years must the citizens of Oklahoma City wait to fully enjoy the public investment that is sissortail park.

Given the lack of private development around the park and adjacent to the street car we should ignore any private consultant report that says you will get X new private investment for spending Y public funds.

This isnt to say that the central park isnt a benefit to the public by itself, but the private development next to this prime real estate is pathetic to date.

You seem to be forgetting a couple things. Firstly, the park opened in 2019 and just a couple months later the world went stupid with lockdowns. The lockdowns have had a very detrimental effect on the economy and resulting inflation. Secondly, development takes time. You have to have developers move in and buy land, come up with ideas, get the ideas OK'd, and then begin construction. It's time consuming in a normal environment, let alone an environment where the gov't decides to shut down the economy.

It seems that the city does a poor job of managing development downtown. Perhaps they should have acquired all the land surrounding Scissortail Park and then sold it to qualified developers. I am all for a free market, but it really doesn't look good to have all that vacant land around the park. I realize development takes time, but I really doubt Strawberry Fields has the backing necessary for this scale project. For land around such a important piece of OKC, you shouldn't be able to buy land and hold.....

It seems that the city does a poor job of managing development downtown. Perhaps they should have acquired all the land surrounding Scissortail Park and then sold it to qualified developers. I am all for a free market, but it really doesn't look good to have all that vacant land around the park. I realize development takes time, but I really doubt Strawberry Fields has the backing necessary for this scale project. For land around such a important piece of OKC, you shouldn't be able to buy land and hold.....

As much as dislike speculators, who do nothing, drive up costs, and delay action, a city never should get involved with development or speculating on land themselves. It almost never goes right.

But all the parkside speculation, mostly by Strawberry who has only shown cool renderings but done nothing, will be a huge hinderance in development around the park happening anytime soon. Feel bad for any outside individual who invested money with them. They've already overpaid for most of their properties, have done nothing with them so far, and you would have made so much more with that investment just putting it into the market.

Keep in mind that it's legally thorny for a government body to forcibly take property through eminent domain and then use it for private development. So, using the city mechanisms for this area was never going to happen. It works for something like Scissortail Park or the convention center, though.

Also, the Strawberry Fields group has spent tens of millions on acquiring all this property. There is no way they can just sit on it forever.

No developer in OKC can handle a project of this scale.

No developer in OKC can handle a project of this scale.
The Humphreys are doing it. Have to start somewhere.

nm

You seem to be forgetting a couple things. Firstly, the park opened in 2019 and just a couple months later the world went stupid with lockdowns. The lockdowns have had a very detrimental effect on the economy and resulting inflation. Secondly, development takes time. You have to have developers move in and buy land, come up with ideas, get the ideas OK'd, and then begin construction. It's time consuming in a normal environment, let alone an environment where the gov't decides to shut down the economy.

Oh good lord. The economy was not shut down. We had a two-week lockdown and nearly every type of business was exempted by the governor. This would have very little impact on development.

People seem to have short memories.

The reason certain businesses struggled had more to do with customers' reluctance to return to various settings, not actual government policy, at least not here.

Oh good lord. The economy was not shut down. We had a two-week lockdown and nearly every type of business was exempted by the governor. This would have very little impact on development.

People seem to have short memories.

The reason certain businesses struggled had more to do with customers' reluctance to return to various settings, not actual government policy, at least not here.

Agree.

I would love to hear how spending millions of dollars in land and believing in a district translates into tearing down old buildings and mowing grass for years. It is like reserve gentrification.

Oh good lord. The economy was not shut down. We had a two-week lockdown and nearly every type of business was exempted by the governor. This would have very little impact on development.

People seem to have short memories.

The reason certain businesses struggled had more to do with customers' reluctance to return to various settings, not actual government policy, at least not here.

I will agree with the timeline, but lots of banks slowed lending or shut it down all together. And if they kept lending, a lot of banks increased their qualifications for loans from a credit score and cash flow perspective. Personally, I had two loans totaling $1.4 million that were put on hold for at least 30 days to see how the market reacts to the shut downs and if the businesses would still cash flow in a slower market.

One other thing to take into consideration is that most banks participated in the PPP loans in April of 2020 and the forgiveness at the end of 2020. That, in and of itself, took a lot of man power to push through. Not debating anything you said, but wanted to add those points.

The Humphreys are doing it. Have to start somewhere.

with a $120+ million gift from the city

with a $120+ million gift from the city
I suspect these folks are going to need a big gift too. The streets are in horrible shape in this area.

This development is not exciting (the master plan). It's just a bunch of office/apartments that look like Dallas wannabes. It's not organic at all. Honestly reminds me of soviet style social housing (copy and paste everywhere). It lacks character. The old buildings that are planed to be renovated are great but the designs for the two new buildings are awful. Honestly, I wish AHMM would be the lead architects for this project. This would be a great place for Oklahoma City to close some of the streets completely to vehicles and refigure the grid. A master plan that is for human beings not cars. Haven't we learned anything... Here's some architectural design that we should aim for. Let's push the boundaries, we deserve a completely walkable/ bikable district that is normal in big cities. This idea that we need to design Dallas styled apartment buildings is old.
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This development is not exciting (the master plan). It's just a bunch of office/apartments that look like Dallas wannabes. It's not organic at all. Honestly reminds me of soviet style social housing (copy and paste everywhere). It lacks character. The old buildings that are planed to be renovated are great but the designs for the two new buildings are awful. Honestly, I wish AHMM would be the lead architects for this project. This would be a great place for Oklahoma City to close some of the streets completely to vehicles and refigure the grid. A master plan that is for human beings not cars. Haven't we learned anything... Here's some architectural design that we should aim for. Let's push the boundaries, we deserve a completely walkable/ bikable district that is normal in big cities. This idea that we need to design Dallas styled apartment buildings is old.
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I'm not sure what you're looking at but most things currently being shown for that area are conceptual rather than actual proposals.

with a $120+ million gift from the city

what??

what??

Assume they are referring to the TIF package Wheeler District received. Not to say the Humphreys arent doing a good job with Wheeler, but a lot of cool developments could happen with massive TIF packages.

Honestly, I wish AHMM would be the lead architects for this project.
+1

An example of how urban planning should be done, Hafencity in Hamburg, Germany.

https://www.kcap.eu/projects/9/hafencity

Have to look on the bright side lol - given the current trends in urban planning, every day that this project sits as a collection of vacant lots probably ups the odds ever so slightly that we get something pedestrian-oriented once it's finally built.

I never really was a fan of this development. Seems like a long shot, and will take decades to build out.

I personally think it's fairly unlikely that the current owners are up for a task of this scale, but having so many adjacent properties owned by the same group of people certainly could pay off down the line. All it takes is getting the land into the hands of someone with a coherent vision and the funds needed to execute that vision.

Oh good lord. The economy was not shut down. We had a two-week lockdown and nearly every type of business was exempted by the governor. This would have very little impact on development.

People seem to have short memories.

The reason certain businesses struggled had more to do with customers' reluctance to return to various settings, not actual government policy, at least not here.

Correct, Commercial development in OKC was up 10% in 2020 and Residential was up 25%.

Assume they are referring to the TIF package Wheeler District received. Not to say the Humphreys arent doing a good job with Wheeler, but a lot of cool developments could happen with massive TIF packages.

either way TIF is not a "gift"

either way TIF is not a "gift"

I didn’t call it a gift. But what is it and why is it not a standard policy that every developer can take advatange of?

I went by yesterday and saw absolutely no movement on the existing buildings they plan to renovate or anywhere else.

I would feel much better if they would actually do something other than draw up renderings.

I didn’t call it a gift. But what is it and why is it not a standard policy that every developer can take advatange of?

I'm no TIF expert but every developer can ask (development has to be in a TIF district first of all). It's up to the city to choose whether to grant or not.

As to the question of what is it, it's on the city website (https://www.okc.gov/departments/economic-development/tax-increment-finance-tif#:~:text=TIFs%20allow%20cities%20to%20use,an%20 incentive%20for%20private%20investment.&text=The%20state%20constitution%20and%20Local,Okla homa%20cities%20to%20use%20TIFs.).

I didn’t call it a gift. But what is it and why is it not a standard policy that every developer can take advatange of?

you didn't "richard at remax" did ..

I never really was a fan of this development. Seems like a long shot, and will take decades to build out.

I'd rather see empty lands than half-assed, ugly things are built there, which I'm worried that's the direction we're heading. OKC should put most of the efforts into developing the Innovation District then Bricktown then Midtown before investing in this area, the companies are there, the jobs are there, the people are there, this area has none of those. Once we have those districts filled up, it's natural to see money is flowing into Strawberry Fields, OKC needs to add another 100,000 people to its population and attract a bunch of companies before we can see a vibrant downtown.

I still believe no developer in OKC can handle project at this scale, building mid/high-rise offices/apartments is way more expensive and harder/slower to sell.

Anything built fronting the park has to be of a minimum height and everything in that area has to pass design review.

I'm sure the city is going to be very picky about anything visible from the park, considering the massive public investment and the importance placed on the convention center.

I'd rather see empty lands than half-assed, ugly things are built there, which I'm worried that's the direction we're heading. OKC should put most of the efforts into developing the Innovation District then Bricktown then Midtown before investing in this area, the companies are there, the jobs are there, the people are there, this area has none of those. Once we have those districts filled up, it's natural to see money is flowing into Strawberry Fields, OKC needs to add another 100,000 people to its population and attract a bunch of companies before we can see a vibrant downtown.

I still believe no developer in OKC can handle project at this scale, building mid/high-rise offices/apartments is way more expensive and harder/slower to sell.

I wouldn't go that far to say that. I think the Humphreys are doing great things across the river with the Wheeler District. If the Humphrey's had this project, they would of been able to do it.

I wouldn't go that far to say that. I think the Humphreys are doing great things across the river with the Wheeler District. If the Humphrey's had this project, they would of been able to do it.

Sorry, I wasn't clear earlier.

I still believe no developer in OKC can handle project at this scale, building mid/high-rise offices/apartments is way more expensive and harder/slower to sell than mostly single family houses that are being built in the Wheeler District. You can build a house and sell it in four months, recoup your capital and proceed to the next house(s). You just can't build 100ish unit complexes and fill them in four months, and there are a bunch of those in this project. This area is designated for heavy mixed use development by the city, unlike the Wheeler District. Moreover, people prefer to own houses to condos in OKC.

A project like this takes several billions and decades to finish.

Sorry, I wasn't clear earlier.

I still believe no developer in OKC can handle project at this scale, building mid/high-rise offices/apartments is way more expensive and harder/slower to sell than mostly single family houses that are being built in the Wheeler District. You can build a house and sell it in four months, recoup your capital and proceed to the next house(s). You just can't build 100ish unit complexes and fill them in four months, and there are a bunch of those in this project. This area is designated for heavy mixed use development by the city, unlike the Wheeler District. Moreover, people prefer to own houses to condos in OKC.

A project like this takes several billions and decades to finish.

there are developers in okc with Billions and/or access to Billions

there are developers in okc with Billions and/or access to Billions

Can't tell with the small potatoes projects here. Tulsa has like, 8 times as many cranes as OKC. Hopefully the Uhaul lot comes to fruition, or there will be no high-rise projects on the horizon.

Can't tell with the small potatoes projects here. Tulsa has like, 8 times as many cranes as OKC. Hopefully the Uhaul lot comes to fruition, or there will be no high-rise projects on the horizon.

maybe in 20 years tulsa will get to where OKC is today ...

maybe in 20 years tulsa will get to where OKC is today ...

I seriously doubt Tulsa will move to where OKC is today in central Oklahoma. I think it’ll remain in northeast Oklahoma.

I seriously doubt Tulsa will move to where OKC is today in central Oklahoma. I think it’ll remain in northeast Oklahoma.
New Madrid fault line is closer to Tulsa than it is to OK€.

maybe in 20 years tulsa will get to where OKC is today ...

As someone with no dog in this fight, this just seems like a very ludicrous thing to say. In my unbiased observation, OKC is not 20 years ahead of Tulsa.

As someone with no dog in this fight, this just seems like a very ludicrous thing to say. In my unbiased observation, OKC is not 20 years ahead of Tulsa.

Exactly. I just checked with friends and it's apparently the year 2022 in both cities. I even double checked, "Are you sure it's not 2042 in OKC? Because BoulderSooner on the Internet said OKC was 20 years ahead of Tulsa!"

Tulsa is very competitive with Oklahoma City. We did get an advantage with our convention center & luxury hotel complex. And with developments that will be finished between 2022-2024, OKC has an edge.

Let's see how both cities take advantage of funds and grants in Biden's Infrastructure plan where Oklahoma will receive $5 billion to spend on infrastructure.

On inner city parks, river parks, cleanliness, roads and bridges, I'll give Tulsa a BIG advantage. Both cities have commercial & industrial developments in various stages.

Future developments and tourism, 2022-25 we'll see which city creates distance. OKC vs Tulsa population growth, OKC far exceeds Tulsa.

Oklahoma City has MAPS 4 and Tulsa Vision 2025, advantage OKC; both cities with visions that will enhance Oklahoma's two largest cities.

Casinos, Tulsa... State Fairs, Tulsa... State Fair Complex, Tulsa... Job growth, Oklahoma City...

Airports & Zoos: Tulsa International vs Oklahoma City Will Rogers World, OKC a slight edge; also a bigger & better zoo - OKC 119 acres vs Tulsa 85 acres.

My good friend, Shawnw, get that OKC-TUL thread ready. 'Strawberries, Cherries..."

Oklahoma Memorial Stadium is 15 minutes from OKC. Checkmate.

OKC has the NBA - Thunder..... Nothing in Tulsa to compare with.

OKC has been completing MAPS projects since the 90's, and a lot of them. Tulsa was late to the party on that one even though the Gathering Place is excellent.

LOL, don't start that OKC vs Tulsa argument again. I don't know how many times it needs to be pointed out that the two cities are in wildly different positions regarding just about everything that affects development and growth. Both are fine places to be regardless.

Here's one thing that's the same everywhere: it's hard to get projects off the ground in this economic environment. There aren't enough workers, building supply shortages are still occurring, and there are issues getting the necessary funding with all the economic turbulence. I think the biggest thing is just the logistics of getting tenants to sign on in such uncertain times. There are a lot of companies questioning how much space they'll need in the next five years.

This development is gonna have to cost billions of dollars to ensure its done right. It's not cheap and I don't think the current people have the resources to do it right and well. By now they would have came up with a solid plan for the entire district. It's all up in the air and conceptual because it's too big of a project for them. I remember when this project came out they posted pictures on their Instagram about biking and walkability. They posted images of European styled streets, a focus on human scale. Now this project doesn't even know what it is anymore. Talk about identify crisis lol. This whole thing is a flop. I hope they fix the old buildings they said they would fix but at this rate who knows.

This development is gonna have to cost billions of dollars to ensure its done right. It's not cheap and I don't think the current people have the resources to do it right and well. By now they would have came up with a solid plan for the entire district. It's all up in the air and conceptual because it's too big of a project for them. I remember when this project came out they posted pictures on their Instagram about biking and walkability. They posted images of European styled streets, a focus on human scale. Now this project doesn't even know what it is anymore. Talk about identify crisis lol. This whole thing is a flop. I hope they fix the old buildings they said they would fix but at this rate who knows.
Yeah I could be wrong but just to get the infrastructure to par with how they depicted it be on the renderings would cost close to or maybe more than a billion alone.