Also.. what sorts of design precedents do all of these car dealerships and empty lots set in the section of AA being debated? What will Oklahoma Contemporary set? Using that as your case for denial is a complete, laughable canard.

^^^^^^^^
The car dealerships are north of the DBD/DTD-1 diving line, predate urban design standards, and as far as I know are not being used as a measuring stick for either Broadway Park or Oklahoma Contemporary.

Thanks for the clarification. At the same time, this also demostrates why the entire issue of standards needs to be reevaluated. There should be some flexibility on design in what is essentially a boundary of transition from one area to another.

Yes, it's a little ridiculous to be super strict here when on all sides but one, there is nothing even approaching urban design standards and in fact are the absolute opposite of those principles.

It's not like this is in the middle of the district... It borders one building at the far north end and everything beyond looks like Memorial Road.

couldn't have said it better UP. Looks like one is using ones 'weight' and 'insider status' to push away a development that many may argue is better than his.

To me, it appears Rand doesn't want this development because it will outshine his; he wants the entire area to be bland and outdated so it fits his 'contemporary' building and he's using his 'friends' on the DDRC to get what he wants (since it appears nobody at the meeting offered a counter argument that this new building offers OKC's true, best, new infill building in AAlley common-sense urban design).


.... ....

Personally, I think the OK Contemporary museum needs to be in the Arts District to feed the OKC Arts Museum

but hey - we just randomly name districts in OKC based on some magazine, organization, or other city anyway so why bother. .. (ie, the NOW called Innovation District, which I think is the dumbest most small time thing - to name a 'working OHC after innovation because the org said it can be an innovation district'). ....

^^^^^^^^
Again, two wrongs don't make a right.

Again, not a good look. If the developer had a different last name, this would have gone forward.

Also, not impressed with Rand's recent work, including the Contemporary.

Again, not a good look. If the developer had a different last name, this would have gone forward...

Do you mean a different name like Nichols or Hall, or do you mean a different name like Smith or Jones?

Do you mean a different name like Nichols or Hall, or do you mean a different name like Smith or Jones?

The former.

They have filed an application with the Board of Adjustment to overturn the decision of the Downtown Design Review Committee; I would be surprised if they don't win their appeal:



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/broadwayparkappeal1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/broadwayparkappeal2.jpg

Well, they hired the right lawyer to lead the charge...

At considerable expense, no doubt.

Effectively, a tax on this developer.

You think one of the reasons Elliot is so against this is because it would possibly block the skyline view from the Contemporary Art building?

You think one of the reasons Elliot is so against this is because it would possibly block the skyline view from the Contemporary Art building?

How does one have a skyline view with few or no windows anyway? Or are there windows under a screen?

How does one have a skyline view with few or no windows anyway? Or are there windows under a screen?

Touché

At considerable expense, no doubt.

Effectively, a tax on this developer.

Is there any way the city would be liable to compensate for attorney fees, if it is found that the board acting on behalf of the city exceeded their bounds with the denial? In other words, this would have never been appealed if the initial board did their job correctly.

Is there any way the city would be liable to compensate for attorney fees, if it is found that the board acting on behalf of the city exceeded their bounds with the denial? In other words, this would have never been appealed if the initial board did their job correctly.

Good question. My assumption would be no, unless they have to go past BOA to District Court?

Good question. My assumption would be no, unless they have to go past BOA to District Court?

It's a shame if so, it's an unnecessary expense. It's like getting pulled over for going exactly the speed limit, and the city not refunding your ticket and court costs for the appeal. From what it sounds, the developer has complied with the letter of the law, and the board was acting out of their bounds. This should not be the deceloper's cost to appeal.

Update from Steve: Automobile Alley Association guidelines, architect's influence at question in debate over five-story Broadway Park project | Oklahoman.com (http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5512226?access=c311d8ab3f33fc7effc73f8260c66d09). As presented it's a pretty damning critique of Rand Elliott's actions in regards to this proposal.

Should be accessible to non-subscribers, I think.

We need about one of these type of projects at every intersection in the core, with wraparound retail feeding East West and North South street interaction and balconies with retail or flats for residential on the 2-4 stories. And some intersections should have one at each corner. The opposition is petty and pathetic.

Betsy Brunstetter, chair of the Downtown Design Review Committee, does not believe Elliott's last-minute request for brick balconies led to the committee not approving the project. Three members of the committee, however, did spend the final moments of the debate discussing the concern.

“I feel like we tried to treat them as fairly as possible,” Brunstetter said. “They made several big changes and I thought they were good. But I didn't think the designs were complete.”

Makin and Muhammad say they were convinced after the third hearing they were doomed to face even more challenges from Elliott if they didn't take the matter to the Board of Adjustment. Makin also questions whether Elliott should continue to hold such sway over other architects' projects.

“He said the building was dangerous to the neighborhood,” Makin said. “I knew he was after me then. It was disappointing. I though the professional thing to do, since we know each other and had never been adversaries before, was to sit down with me. But he shut me down. I felt that was very unprofessional.”


Yea, okay. Elliot and his (probable) friends on the committee need to lose this grudge against Mr Muhammad.

It is like they are trying to get him to pack up and leave that site.

Update from Steve: Automobile Alley Association guidelines, architect's influence at question in debate over five-story Broadway Park project | Oklahoman.com (http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5512226?access=c311d8ab3f33fc7effc73f8260c66d09). As presented it's a pretty damning critique of Rand Elliott's actions in regards to this proposal.

Should be accessible to non-subscribers, I think.

This is emblematic of how things are at the city planning offices at this time. Permitting and getting projects moving has become a ridiculous endeavor.

After watching the Guyutes saga with the Planning Commission and now this fiasco, these appointed committees and boards need to be purged of the egotistical idiots that inhabit them, or at the very least, be herded into a room and taught the meaning and implications of the phrase "arbitrary and capricious" and tested until they understand the statutory limits of their position and what they may consider and rule on.

These committee members are there to oversee guidelines and make sure they are followed.

Yet, if you watch any of these meetings you get a lot of comments such as, "I'd don't care for this design element" or in a district where there are no parking requirements "where are all these people going to park?" or "I'm worried about the noise" although there are already existing noise ordinances.

NOT YOUR JOB!!!

All it takes is one person to stand up in a meeting and complain and the members often bend over backwards to appease such NIMBY's -- and do much more than that if the complainer is well-known -- and at the very least cause substantial delays and at worst are acting as obstructionists to people wanting to invest a ton of money and their own blood, sweat and tears into OKC.

And then things like Chase Bank just sail through.

Wouldn't it make the most sense to have multiple well known architects on this committee so there are multiple opinions? Maybe add Brian Fitzsimmons and Anthony McDermid?

Wouldn't it make the most sense to have multiple well known architects on this committee so there are multiple opinions? Maybe add Brian Fitzsimmons and Anthony McDermid?

Fitzsimmons is on Urban Design and McDermid used to be on the DDRC.

The chairperson for the DDRC is an architect at ADG.

Wouldn't it make the most sense to have multiple well known architects on this committee so there are multiple opinions? Maybe add Brian Fitzsimmons and Anthony McDermid?

With one of those folks allegedly orchestrating self-serving hijinks in SOSA and the other engaged to the Planning Director, I'm not sure I want them as part of the "solution".

Yeah, the central problem is that OKC is too intertwined to get any real objectivity in these decisions.

As much as I sometimes complain, I know there would be many times I would hate to have to make the tough choices they are often faced with. Especially as a local business owner.

The reality is that such decisions rarely have to do with just the issue before the committee; there are issues regarding relationships, axes to grind, friendships, business relationships, property ownership, etc., etc.

We are now about 2 hours into discussion about this project at the Board of Adjustment.

After all that, the two sides agreed to a 2-week continuance in the hopes they could reach agreement on the balconies (how designed and constructed, as they will remain) as that is the only outstanding issue with the Auto Alley (Rand Elliott) group.

The first part of video reminds me of Broadway Park.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iHdFd2RKRSI

Is there any way the city would be liable to compensate for attorney fees, if it is found that the board acting on behalf of the city exceeded their bounds with the denial? In other words, this would have never been appealed if the initial board did their job correctly.

Depends on state law, but I believe so in Oklahoma, especially given the circumstances that Pete summarized.

Broadway Park building gets approval

Brick balconies made the difference

By: Molly M. Fleming The Journal Record August 18, 2016

OKLAHOMA CITY – Muhammad Safdar was finally able to leave a city meeting with a smile on his face.

His five-story Broadway Park building planned for 1122 N. Broadway Ave. was approved by the Board of Adjustment Thursday.

“It has been my passion to build this building,” he said. “I’m glad I met the right people. I’m going to leave this legacy for years to come.”

The building application was previously denied by the Downtown Design Review Committee for several reasons, including two metal-rail balconies, with the area below the railing being all-metal woven fencing. GSB Inc. architect Haven Mankin’s final design showed all-brick balconies and was approved.

Mankin said his design underwent 15 changes before it was finally given a green light.

“I’m not going to suggest changes to a project that I’m not proud of,” he said. “I have a responsibility to my client to give him my best effort. Everything that was suggested – I had to come up with a solution that kept the spirit and the life of the building.”

At the May DDRC meeting, Mankin thought he had given it his best effort. But the committee felt differently, suggesting changes regarding the balconies and other issues. In June, architect Rand Elliott, representing the Automobile Alley district design group, proposed closing the open metal railings and making them brick.

Elliott said during the meetings that Mankin’s design didn’t fit the Automobile Alley design guidelines. Elliott heads a design committee that is part of the Automobile Alley Association. He is the only architect on that committee. He said after Thursday’s meeting that Mankin could have called Downtown OKC Inc. or the Automobile Alley Association to see the guidelines.

Because of the continued back-and-forth regarding the Automobile Alley guidelines, the historic district’s building rules are in the process of being integrated into the Downtown Design Framework. There is also a link on the district’s website with the building guidelines.

“We’re all just trying to make Oklahoma City a better place,” Elliott said.

With Thursday’s approval, Mankin said he will start creating construction documents. Bids will be taken for demolishing the existing building, a former gas station. He said he hopes to file for a building permit in December.

While the pre-construction work is underway, Banta Properties broker Chad Elmore said he’s ready to start work on leasing the 32,000-square-foot building. The top story has been discussed as a possible restaurant. Elmore said Safdar’s dedication to the project has paved the way for more work in the Automobile Alley District.

Safdar was nearly in tears when he left the May meeting and his project wasn’t approved. He has spent more than $100,000 on pre-construction work such as architecture and environmental fees.

But Thursday’s meeting ended differently. He took pictures with Mankin, Elmore and attorney David Box after the meeting to commemorate the moment. Box presented the project to the Board of Adjustment.

“I’m very happy,” Safdar said. “It’s a good day for me and my team.”

About time. Unfortunately Elliot cost this man a ton of money in legal fees and redesign work that were unwarranted.

This shows the modified design in the lower right, as opposed to the last previous version; just added brick to the railings:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bp081816.jpg

Not as appealing as the first rendering unfortunately

Not as appealing as the first rendering unfortunately

Agree. It feels really heavy now. Monolithic...

Agree. It feels really heavy now. Monolithic...

What is the difference between monolithic and 'brutal'? Serious question?

Agreed, I am not a fan of the closed off balconies. Such an unnecessary, minor adjustment.

Wow, this went from looking modern, sleek, and open - to clunky, mismatched, and dark.

Seriously hope this turns out looking better than that rendering shows.

What is the difference between monolithic and 'brutal'? Serious question?

Brutalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture)is a specific type of architectural vernacular, whereas monolithic describes a visual treatment.

This is not brutalist (in architecture-speak) primarily because it is not concrete-based, but its visual nature could be considered brutal, in my personal opinion.

Glad this was finally approve. But agree with others that the original design was much better

Wow, this went from looking modern, sleek, and open - to clunky, mismatched, and dark.

Seriously hope this turns out looking better than that rendering shows.

This is what happens when you get design by committee. What a mockery this process has become. What this developer went through is tantamount to bullying.

Wow, this went from looking modern, sleek, and open - to clunky, mismatched, and dark.

Seriously hope this turns out looking better than that rendering shows.


Agree. Really dislike the dark brick along the balconies...

Agreed with everyone. The resulting design is far worse than the original.

Agree. Really dislike the dark brick along the balconies...

I'll echo everyone's sentiment. I agree that the original design was WAY better.

The building looks....relatively brutal.

Does that third floor balcony not wrap around anymore? In the original design, there were wrap-around balconies on the third and fourth floors. It appears in the latest design that there is only a wrap around balcony on the 4th floor now. It also doesn't look like you'll be able to look out over the balcony much on the roof of the building now.

Can't fault the developer for this one. He proposed a slam dunk only to have his very good design be abused by the very committee that is supposed to make things better.

How does one shake up a committee. They completely overstepped their bounds and have for quite a while. Time for a fresh set of eyes.

That looks so bad I don't even think the people who recommended the changes would actually want them.

That looks so bad I don't even think the people who recommended the changes would actually want them.

I think you are right.

If this had been the first design proposed, it would have been ripped apart.

I believe this became more about a power play than actually making this project better.

Looks a bit too much like a parking garage, but we still need it to happen.

The monolithic look kind of makes sense to receive approval from Rand in the context of his own monolith going up nearby...

looks a bit too much like a parking garage, but we still need it to happen.

The monolithic look kind of makes sense to receive approval from rand in the context of his own monolith going up nearby...

zing

From:
http://i.imgur.com/popnq0m.jpg

To:
http://i.imgur.com/yKrd071.jpg


Yikes. What an abuse of power.
.
.

Some of the changes, in my personal opinion, were for the better - like the blade sign on the corner, and making the parking garage look like the rest of the building with similar finishes. But the balcony issue, especially, is just ridiculous... Absolute abuse of power by certain members of the DDRC.

agree

nm

For anyone who is interested, the (currently non-binding) Planning Department produced booklet entitled "Automobile Alley - Guidelines for the Next Century" is available for viewing/download here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/899qyerdxht7hkg/Automobile%20Alley%20Guidelines%20for%20the%20Next %20Century.pdf?dl=0

Good to hear that they are working on codifying these recommendations for the district (probably via overlay) so that there will (hopefully) be fewer ugly public debates like this.

Has this started?

So is there an adopted document that states that balconies must be ugly brick?

So is there an adopted document that states that balconies must be ugly brick?

Nah, just Rand Elliott.

Right. So I don't understand why Cornett isn't hearing pressure to replace Rand.

Obviously Cornett, who is an incredible national/international ambassador, is not monitoring every small project in the Automobile Alley Design Review Sub-District. That said, the mayor is where the buck stops with commissions.

Does anyone know the status of this project?

Does anyone know the status of this project?

It is out for construction bid.