Does anyone else think that Classen should have a round-a-bout where it intersects with Western, 16th, and Classen Dr.? Seems like this would really help improve mobility in the area.

Here is the area in question: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4859766,-97.5297702,251m/data=!3m1!1e3

Couple of other quick notes, while they're at it, they should remove that random cul-de-sac on 17th Ave. Makes no sense for that to be there. I understand why they have them in suburban housing additions due to the way they are built, but that one seems to be there just to keep that neighborhood disconnected with the one on the other side of Classen.

They should also reconnect 14th St.

I'd also like to see Classen BLVD., 13th, and Western turned into a roundabout and Classen Dr., 13th, and Shartel made into a roundabout.

One quick other note about Classen, I'd really like to see it completely redone in cement and nicer landscaping added with bike lanes. I still want to see the road at six lanes, but parallel parking with inside bike lanes would be nice to see there.

I'm all for roundabouts anywhere! I would like very beautiful roundabouts with a theme on them throughout the city with perhaps statues of OKC's founding fathers and/or notable OKC residents.

Roundabouts are pretty tough for pedestrians since there's never a guaranteed crossing phase where vehicles must stop. Roundabouts make sense further away from downtown and not in areas that should be walkable. If the goal is to make that intersection work better for cars, then yes, a roundabout might be a good idea, though it would need to be pretty complex in order to accommodate 6 lanes from Classen, and all of the other intersection roads.

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Yes, living near both roundabouts on 10th, they are a pain to cross and i often see people struggling to get across.

The one near LIFT will see tons more foot traffic when it opens in a couple of months.

Relevant:

A Better Classen Boulevard | The Institute for Quality Communities (http://iqc.ou.edu/project/classen/)

I like some of that. I think Classen needs to stay at six lanes, but the lanes could be narrowed about half a foot to a foot and some of the dedicated turn lanes removed close to downtown with the dedicated turn lanes staying at Reno.

I like some of that. I think Classen needs to stay at six lanes, but the lanes could be narrowed about half a foot to a foot and some of the dedicated turn lanes removed close to downtown with the dedicated turn lanes staying at Reno.

If you drove it every morning at about 7:15 AM you wouldn't dream of narrowing the lanes.

If you drove it every morning at about 7:15 AM you wouldn't dream of narrowing the lanes.I'm not talking about the number of lanes. The width of them. Unless you're referring to the oversized pickups.

I'm not talking about the number of lanes. The width of them. Unless you're referring to the oversized pickups.

it's plenty tight with just cars. . . .

I'm not talking about the number of lanes. The width of them. Unless you're referring to the oversized pickups.

I drive a sedan and, especially on the way to and from work, I can't imagine the lanes being any narrower than they already are. I don't think that it would be possible.

Why 12-Foot Traffic Lanes Are Disastrous for Safety and Must Be Replaced Now - CityLab (http://www.citylab.com/design/2014/10/why-12-foot-traffic-lanes-are-disastrous-for-safety-and-must-be-replaced-now/381117/)

I'm with you on this PluPan.

I'm with you on this PluPan.

Which part, narrowing the lanes to 9 feet in width?

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Yes, living near both roundabouts on 10th, they are a pain to cross and i often see people struggling to get across.

The one near LIFT will see tons more foot traffic when it opens in a couple of months.

I have a solution for this: midstreet crosswalks. Very handy. There is one in Bernalillo, NM, (and I'm positive many other cities) that has flashers installed in the pavement on both sides of it indicating pedestrian traffic if you're blind to the larger human figures in your way. They would make sense in this area considering there will be a lot more foot traffic in this area once the streetcars start up.

I have a solution for this: midstreet crosswalks. Very handy. There is one in Bernalillo, NM, (and I'm positive many other cities) that has flashers installed in the pavement on both sides of it indicating pedestrian traffic if you're blind to the larger human figures in your way. They would make sense in this area considering there will be a lot more foot traffic in this area once the streetcars start up.

Norman has some on the OU campus on Elm next to the Catlett parking garage.

I drive on Classen going to and coming from work every day. People now can't stay in there lanes, I imagine because its curvy....and they're not paying attention (cell phones). Narrowing the lanes would be a nightmare!

I drive on Classen going to and coming from work every day. People now can't stay in there lanes, I imagine because its curvy....and they're not paying attention (cell phones). Narrowing the lanes would be a nightmare!

Counter-intuitively, narrowing the lanes would force people to slow down and thus would increase the likelihood of them staying in their lanes.

Another Study Shows That Narrow Is Safer Than Wide for Traffic Lanes | Planetizen: The Urban Planning, Design, and Development Network (http://www.planetizen.com/node/80229/another-study-shows-narrow-safer-wide-traffic-lanes)


Side impact- and turn-related crash rates are lowest at intersections where average lane widths are between 10 and 10.5 feet...This challenges the long-held, but often disputed, assumption that wider lanes are safer

Counter-intuitively, narrowing the lanes would force people to slow down and thus would increase the likelihood of them staying in their lanes.

Another Study Shows That Narrow Is Safer Than Wide for Traffic Lanes | Planetizen: The Urban Planning, Design, and Development Network (http://www.planetizen.com/node/80229/another-study-shows-narrow-safer-wide-traffic-lanes)

The current lane width is 10', at least in the vicinity of NW 16th.

Roundabouts are pretty tough for pedestrians since there's never a guaranteed crossing phase where vehicles must stop. Roundabouts make sense further away from downtown and not in areas that should be walkable. If the goal is to make that intersection work better for cars, then yes, a roundabout might be a good idea, though it would need to be pretty complex in order to accommodate 6 lanes from Classen, and all of the other intersection roads.


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Yes, living near both roundabouts on 10th, they are a pain to cross and i often see people struggling to get across.

I generally disagree on this overall premise depending on the scale. The 10th and Walker roundabout was revolutionary in its' ability to a create place making environment. A place that people actually want to access as actual pedestrians. Before, it was a five-way intersection that made you feel like you were crossing a shooting range of cars. The roundabout calms traffic to a point that the small crosswalks are easily navigable. The distances are so short that they can be crossed quickly by even the elderly. Plus great detail was taken into account for sight lines so that drivers can actually see the pedestrians.

I can understand why being a pedestrian feels daunting. The reality is though, that is probably one of the safest places to actually cross a street in all of Oklahoma City. The simple architecture of it stimulates hyper-awareness by most drivers.

We need more roundabouts to create more intimate places where pedestrians actually want to be. 16th and Classen, if design carefully, could be a boon to that area and generate the intimacy and framing needed for development, beautification, and yes, pedestrians. It could be the engineering mechanism needed to bridge the expanse of Classen to connect The Plaza to Midtown.

So it looks like the IQC recommendation is for a neckdown replacing the high-speed right-turn lanes at 16th and Classen. This should be doable at a minimum without seriously reconfiguring the intersection. I'm not really sure that Classen Blvd or NW 23rd should have a roundabout - with such high traffic counts, it certainly wouldn't be pedestrian-friendly.

That said, any other nearby street might be fair game. Maybe elsewhere on 16th, or Robinson, or 19th, or 30th, or Walker, etc. Western even might be a good candidate. I also really wish they weren't cul-de-sac'ing Western at "The Boulevard." Doing that really screws things up in the big picture, not that ODOT is capable of looking beyond their simpleton road project.

So it looks like the IQC recommendation is for a neckdown replacing the high-speed right-turn lanes at 16th and Classen. This should be doable at a minimum without seriously reconfiguring the intersection. I'm not really sure that Classen Blvd or NW 23rd should have a roundabout - with such high traffic counts, it certainly wouldn't be pedestrian-friendly.

That said, any other nearby street might be fair game. Maybe elsewhere on 16th, or Robinson, or 19th, or 30th, or Walker, etc. Western even might be a good candidate. I also really wish they weren't cul-de-sac'ing Western at "The Boulevard." Doing that really screws things up in the big picture, not that ODOT is capable of looking beyond their simpleton road project.

Why do you say they are not ped friendly?

Cars have to yield to pedestrians. The mentality of OKC drivers might not include respecting pedestrians, but how do you get that to change? Here in West Hollywood, all you have to do is stick your foot out and people will come screeching to a halt. They do the same thing on PCH between Santa Monica and Malibu. Now I don't necessarily agree that pedestrians should have the ROW on a state highway with a 35-50MPH speed limit, but I don't support lowering the speed limits at all, so I think requiring a 2-4k pound vehicle to come to a halt for peds on that stretch is a little ridiculous, but none the less, it is required, the pedestrian walks are there, and people do stop for you even if it takes several cars. But I do like the concept especially in areas like West Hollywood or Downtown OKC and the vicinity.

You have to start somewhere. I am not for encouraging the police to give out more tickets, but I bet if you put the round-a-bout there, placed a couple police motorbike officers around there during certain times of the day, and issued warnings to people for awhile, people would get the message.

I think the other issue here is that there are several streets converging onto one intersection. This isn't your typical intersection with two streets merging. This round-a-bout would have 3-4 different streets feeding into it. It might cause traffic to back up a little bit, but that is fine. In this area, I want to see more congestion because it slows drivers down, livens up the city, and encourages pedestrian activity all at the same time. This would also keep traffic moving at 3am instead of having to stop at a traffic signal with no one driving through the intersection.

Why do you say they are not ped friendly?

Cars have to yield to pedestrians. The mentality of OKC drivers might not include respecting pedestrians, but how do you get that to change? Here in West Hollywood, all you have to do is stick your foot out and people will come screeching to a halt. They do the same thing on PCH between Santa Monica and Malibu. Now I don't necessarily agree that pedestrians should have the ROW on a state highway with a 35-50MPH speed limit, but I don't support lowering the speed limits at all, so I think requiring a 2-4k pound vehicle to come to a halt for peds on that stretch is a little ridiculous, but none the less, it is required, the pedestrian walks are there, and people do stop for you even if it takes several cars. But I do like the concept especially in areas like West Hollywood or Downtown OKC and the vicinity.

You have to start somewhere. I am not for encouraging the police to give out more tickets, but I bet if you put the round-a-bout there, placed a couple police motorbike officers around there during certain times of the day, and issued warnings to people for awhile, people would get the message.

I think the other issue here is that there are several streets converging onto one intersection. This isn't your typical intersection with two streets merging. This round-a-bout would have 3-4 different streets feeding into it. It might cause traffic to back up a little bit, but that is fine. In this area, I want to see more congestion because it slows drivers down, livens up the city, and encourages pedestrian activity all at the same time. This would also keep traffic moving at 3am instead of having to stop at a traffic signal with no one driving through the intersection.

Nothing says pedestrian safety like stepping out in front of 3 lines of cars that have drivers looking over their left shoulders to merge with roundabout traffic.

Why do you say they are not ped friendly?

Cars have to yield to pedestrians. The mentality of OKC drivers might not include respecting pedestrians, but how do you get that to change? Here in West Hollywood, all you have to do is stick your foot out and people will come screeching to a halt. They do the same thing on PCH between Santa Monica and Malibu. Now I don't necessarily agree that pedestrians should have the ROW on a state highway with a 35-50MPH speed limit, but I don't support lowering the speed limits at all, so I think requiring a 2-4k pound vehicle to come to a halt for peds on that stretch is a little ridiculous, but none the less, it is required, the pedestrian walks are there, and people do stop for you even if it takes several cars. But I do like the concept especially in areas like West Hollywood or Downtown OKC and the vicinity.

You have to start somewhere. I am not for encouraging the police to give out more tickets, but I bet if you put the round-a-bout there, placed a couple police motorbike officers around there during certain times of the day, and issued warnings to people for awhile, people would get the message.

I think the other issue here is that there are several streets converging onto one intersection. This isn't your typical intersection with two streets merging. This round-a-bout would have 3-4 different streets feeding into it. It might cause traffic to back up a little bit, but that is fine. In this area, I want to see more congestion because it slows drivers down, livens up the city, and encourages pedestrian activity all at the same time. This would also keep traffic moving at 3am instead of having to stop at a traffic signal with no one driving through the intersection.

Roundabouts come in all different types. On Classen Blvd, you probably wouldn't be able to replicate the intimacy of the Walker Circle, which I do think works very well. The tight radius of that circle really forces drivers to slow down, for instance. Brick crosswalks add a somewhat jarring traffic calming device. At Walker it all comes together nicely as a placemaking strategy due to the intimate scale.

Shartel is a little bit wider radius, and that's probably the largest that a roundabout can be while still maintaining a walkable scale. That roundabout only works because 10th tapers right before it. You absolutely can't taper Classen down to 1 lane. I think the future of Classen is probably 2 traffic lanes in each direction with a dedicated lane for transit, and wider sidewalks.

There are some cities in the Midwest that are pretty gung-ho for high-speed rotaries. Cleveland has a big one at what's called "Steelyard Circle," at W. 14th and Quigley, where 2 lanes wrap around; exiting actually requires a lane change within the rotary. Fishers, Indiana and Dublin, Ohio both have them all over. Dublin has a few multi-lane examples, while Fishers has the most roundabouts of any city. Carmel, Indiana and Hilliard, Ohio are an example of adjacent suburbs adopting the practice - once drivers in an area become used to seeing them, they start to spread like wildfire bc they are a very good idea. But notice how Carmel, Fishers, Dublin, and Hilliard aren't doing them for pedestrian reasons - they are doing them to speed traffic up, eliminate red lights, and improve air quality.

I'd also like to see some cities replicate Indy's Monument Circle. I think it works very well, but it's not a roundabout in the form of a singular traffic movement. It's actually an intersection that performs very poorly in terms of moving traffic, which is probably ideal at MONUMENT Circle lol.

http://indianawarmemorials.org/images/pictures/soldiersailers_01.jpg

I don't know if you'd call that a roundabout, a rotary, a traffic circle, or just simple a rounded city block. It doesn't really fit the first three typologies because like I said, it doesn't facilitate a single traffic movement.

I'm not really sure that Classen Blvd or NW 23rd should have a roundabout - with such high traffic counts, it certainly wouldn't be pedestrian-friendly.

Good point. I wonder if a roundabout could be pared with a mid-block crossing further south though. That seems like the best of both worlds. Place making and a well design crossing.

But if they have a plan already, I am sure that is where the emphasis will be.

Nothing says pedestrian safety like stepping out in front of 3 lines of cars that have drivers looking over their left shoulders to merge with roundabout traffic.The number of lanes can narrow down to two at the round-a-bouts and they can also install pedestrian signals that will flash red and the approaching vehicle should treat the round-a-bout like a 4 way stop.

Roundabouts come in all different types. On Classen Blvd, you probably wouldn't be able to replicate the intimacy of the Walker Circle, which I do think works very well. The tight radius of that circle really forces drivers to slow down, for instance. Brick crosswalks add a somewhat jarring traffic calming device. At Walker it all comes together nicely as a placemaking strategy due to the intimate scale.

Shartel is a little bit wider radius, and that's probably the largest that a roundabout can be while still maintaining a walkable scale. That roundabout only works because 10th tapers right before it. You absolutely can't taper Classen down to 1 lane. I think the future of Classen is probably 2 traffic lanes in each direction with a dedicated lane for transit, and wider sidewalks.

There are some cities in the Midwest that are pretty gung-ho for high-speed rotaries. Cleveland has a big one at what's called "Steelyard Circle," at W. 14th and Quigley, where 2 lanes wrap around; exiting actually requires a lane change within the rotary. Fishers, Indiana and Dublin, Ohio both have them all over. Dublin has a few multi-lane examples, while Fishers has the most roundabouts of any city. Carmel, Indiana and Hilliard, Ohio are an example of adjacent suburbs adopting the practice - once drivers in an area become used to seeing them, they start to spread like wildfire bc they are a very good idea. But notice how Carmel, Fishers, Dublin, and Hilliard aren't doing them for pedestrian reasons - they are doing them to speed traffic up, eliminate red lights, and improve air quality.

I'd also like to see some cities replicate Indy's Monument Circle. I think it works very well, but it's not a roundabout in the form of a singular traffic movement. It's actually an intersection that performs very poorly in terms of moving traffic, which is probably ideal at MONUMENT Circle lol.

http://indianawarmemorials.org/images/pictures/soldiersailers_01.jpg

I don't know if you'd call that a roundabout, a rotary, a traffic circle, or just simple a rounded city block. It doesn't really fit the first three typologies because like I said, it doesn't facilitate a single traffic movement.Thank you for the information. Have you seen the overhead signals for pedestrians though that will flash red for about 15-30 seconds, which the cars basically treat it like a stop sign if it's flashing or stop and wait if it is solid red. That could possibly work.

I really like the traffic circle in Indy.

It might be helpful, in this disfussion, to recall the good old days of Classen Circle at NW 50-NW Hiway-Classen Blvd, created back in the day when Classen effectively ended at the I44 intersection (from there north to the Belle Isle Power plant it was a narrow, unmaintained, 2-lane trail that never connected to the street EAST of Western that bore the same name).

Once it had been built, replacing a 5-way intersection with a slightly oversized roundabout, it quickly became the leading accident-location site for the city. It finally got bad enough that the city replaced it with the current multi-way intersection, closing off NW 50 at the same time. That moved the top accident spot a few blocks to the west, to the NW Hiway intersection at the west side of the Belle Isle Bridge.

The problem isn't so much the roundabout idea itself -- it's the traffic count of NW Hiway and the mindset of those who drive it. Franklin, TN, does roundabouts properly in at least some of its newest residential dev3lopments -- there's one at almost EVERY intersection. This enforces a low speed limit, by the laws of mass and inertia.

If you put roundabouts on Classen at Main, NW 4, NW 6, NW 10, NW 13, NW 16, NW 18, NW 23, NW 30, NW 36, and back at NW Hiway, you could slow the drivers down. However that would, most likely, simply move them to some other north-south route where they could still go fast! And there's no way that OKC's traffic gurus would consider such an idea in the first place!

Good point. I wonder if a roundabout could be pared with a mid-block crossing further south though. That seems like the best of both worlds. Place making and a well design crossing.

But if they have a plan already, I am sure that is where the emphasis will be.

Since I think both 23rd and Classen should be transit corridors, perhaps you could achieve multiple goals including strong placemaking through a combined streetcar stop and mid-block crossing.