I think that was an Oshman's store, which are now known as Sports Authority.

Well got damn, maybe you're right. I would have bet my brother in-laws kids that that store was an OG Academy. Sorry for the confusion Patrick, and I hope this does not reflect badly upon the person that I am, or possibly could be some day.

Well got damn, maybe you're right. I would have bet my brother in-laws kids that that store was an OG Academy. Sorry for the confusion Patrick, and I hope this does not reflect badly upon the person that I am, or possibly could be some day.

No problem Filthy! You're forgiven!

My bet is that they'll try to open up a fitness facility and lunar mini golf in the Macy's space. Ha!

My bet is that they'll try to open up a fitness facility and lunar mini golf in the Macy's space. Ha!

Promenade in Tulsa replaced the Mervyn's store with a Sky Fitness location. I'm not sure that helped the mall at all except with rent revenue. That mall is in a particularly tough situation and can't go upscale with Utica Square just three miles away and Woodland just four.

Promenade in Tulsa replaced the Mervyn's store with a Sky Fitness location. I'm not sure that helped the mall at all except with rent revenue. That mall is in a particularly tough situation and can't go upscale with Utica Square just three miles away and Woodland just four.

Promenade, although not as prime as Woodland Hills, must still be doing pretty well, as they've maintained all of their anchor stores (Dillard's, JC Penney, and Macy's...and the movie theater) aside from the Mervyns space. Last weekend I was up there it seemed like the movie theater was a big draw for the mall.

It'd be great if they could turn the space into a nice main entrance or something that incorporates and indoor-outdoor feel with some nicer, mid-tier restaurants and shops, outdoor art, and some nice landscaping. I recall the large glass wall at Quail - before the theater was built. Seems like there may have been a sculpture near it as well. It would be a sad sight to see this mall die considering how explosive growth in the area has been.

They should just cut to the chase and call Simon Property Group and pitch the idea for Prairie Mills. The Macy's space would make a killer skateboard park, airsoft course, and slot car racing track.

They should just cut to the chase and call Simon Property Group and pitch the idea for Prairie Mills. The Macy's space would make a killer skateboard park, airsoft course, and slot car racing track.

If Quail Springs was a Simon mall, I have a feeling they wouldn't be having the problems they're having. Quail Springs is GGP.
Maybe unfair, but I've always thought of them like this:
Simon = Marriott
GGP===Motel 6...okay, maybe Day's Inn.

Disney actually left the mall last year to make way for the new H&M.

Disney was actually forced out.

If Quail Springs was a Simon mall, I have a feeling they wouldn't be having the problems they're having. Quail Springs is GGP.
Maybe unfair, but I've always thought of them like this:
Simon = Marriott
GGP===Motel 6...okay, maybe Day's Inn.

Does GGP do any upscale malls or are they mostly middle-tier malls like QSM?

I think you are right for the most part, except for that fact Simon does have some struggling, middle tier malls. They tend to be a better manager than GGP.

Personally I think the issue with Macy's at QSM closing has more to do with the specific store than the mall, but the mall better watch out. As soon as OKC gets an upscale lifestyle center, it will be in trouble. Personally I wish Von Maur and H&M would have went into Chisholm Creek rather than Quail Springs Mall. It would have been a better fit.

Poe is right. When Lord & Taylor left West County Center in St. Louis s couple of years ago, the mall very quickly demolished the old space and rebuilt it as a new grand entrance with about ten or fifteen smaller shops and restaurants, most with interior and exterior entrances.

The worst thing QSM could do is let it sit vacant where it starts to contribute to a desolate feeling. Almost equally bad would be to turn it into some sort of weird discount place or non-traditional use, like a gym or big arcade. Get in front of it, realize you're not going to get a high-end department store and immediately begin reconfiguring it.

The new entrance to West County contains some of the nicest stores in the mall - it's a miniature lifestyle center.

The new entrance to West County contains some of the nicest stores in the mall - it's a miniature lifestyle center.

This would be a good idea. I've seen some malls in other cities do this when they lose an anchor. They convert the area into a lifestyle extension of the traditional mall and it really works to breathe new life into it.

The worst thing QSM can do is let it sit desolate or fill it with a non-traditional anchor. Declining malls across the country have done this and once that ball starts rolling, its difficult to stop. As I've said, I believe the only thing keeping QSM afloat using their current approach is the fact that OKC doesn't have a lifestyle center. As soon as it does, QSM will be in trouble. A change in strategy is desperately needed. It's now 2016, not the early 1990s.

This is how it all started with Crossroads Mall, lost a large anchor, then another..........

This is how it all started with Crossroads Mall, lost a large anchor, then another..........

You can't really compare these two situations. For a long time, Crossroads was surrounded by deteriorating neighborhoods and changing demographics. Most of the money had moved south and west. Still, the mall continued to hang on being the epicenter of retail in south OKC. The real slide at Crossroads started with the 2006 shooting there. Then the 2008 recession did the mall in. That's when they lost Macy's, Dillard's, and JC Penney. Ward's closed nationwide and then it became Steve and Barry's, which also lasted until the 2008 recession. Further complicating Crossroads problems is the retail boom on I-240 and in south Moore, which drew a lot of the middle class families Crossroads was targeting away from the mall.

Steve and Barry's is the type of anchor QSM should avoid. If they can't get something traditional, they should demolish the space and do something creative with it that will breathe new life into the mall. If there is one thing that is similar between QSM and Crossroads, is that they both have continued to primarily target middle class families in a retail environment where the big box stores are getting a greater share of those dollars every year, and they both had a lot of competition for that demographic from nearby strip malls.

Crossroads was never in the position to reinvent itself to chase a more upscale market. By the time it went into decline, the money had moved away. That isn't the case for QSM and it can still be reinvented.

Disney was actually forced out.

Basically what I said. They left due to H&M taking over their space. So they were forced out.

Wouldn't be surprised if JC Penney chooses to leave QSM, and instead chooses to locate a new store in Chisolm Creek. Similar to what they did when they left Crossroads to move to Moore.

As has been said, QSM is lucky not to have a lifestyle center to compete with. I really think that had the Tuscana development (towards the north of the mall) become a reality, QSM would've been a goner.

And the demographics around QSM are more varied than you'd think. There are some nice neighborhoods close by, but there are also a lot of run down 70's and 80's apartment complexes, like the 122nd and Penn area for instance. What keeps Penn Square going is the concentrated dense wealth in the Nichols Hills area. With Quail, the wealth is so spread out, and even then, it's just as easy to jump on the Parkway and head down to the nicer mall (Penn) than it is to drive across town to go to Quail.

The only problem with creating a new main entrance in the Macy's space is that it's on the back side of the mall. Wouldn't really make much sense to have the main entrance on the back side.

This is how it all started with Crossroads Mall, lost a large anchor, then another..........

Other than having a highway to the south and red dirt underneath, there is virtually nothing similar in the demographics of the two malls.

Park Meadows put in an outdoor shopping wing with several bars/restaurants and outward facing higher end retailers and has been very successful

Wouldn't be surprised if JC Penney chooses to leave QSM, and instead chooses to locate a new store in Chisolm Creek. Similar to what they did when they left Crossroads to move to Moore.

As has been said, QSM is lucky not to have a lifestyle center to compete with. I really think that had the Tuscana development (towards the north of the mall) become a reality, QSM would've been a goner.

I agree with this. Tuscana would have been the end of Quail Springs Mall. Von Maur and H&M probably would have ended up there instead.

I want to see QSM succeed simply because of H&M and Von Maur. It will be terrible for those retailers if it goes into decline. Otherwise, I would say let JC Penney and Dillard's build new locations in Chisholm Creek and let QSM run its course.



And the demographics around QSM are more varied than you'd think. There are some nice neighborhoods close by, but there are also a lot of run down 70's and 80's apartment complexes, like the 122nd and Penn area for instance. What keeps Penn Square going is the concentrated dense wealth in the Nichols Hills area. With Quail, the wealth is so spread out, and even then, it's just as easy to jump on the Parkway and head down to the nicer mall (Penn) than it is to drive across town to go to Quail.

The apartments at NW 122nd and Penn are a big problem for the area. They have been for a long time. However, I am not sure how much they impact Quail Springs Mall. It's relatively small area and the homes in that area are quite nice. It's just the apartments that are a blight on the neighborhood. Penn has worse areas within a comparable distance.


The only problem with creating a new main entrance in the Macy's space is that it's on the back side of the mall. Wouldn't really make much sense to have the main entrance on the back side.

It could be done, easily. Carolina Place Mall in Charlotte has its main entrance on the side facing away from the highway, with Barnes and Noble and REI having outdoor entrances along with a few restaurants. They could reconfigure NW 140th St and orient the mall towards it rather than Memorial, which is a traffic nightmare with poor accessibility as it is. It could turn out to be very nice.

Another thing GGP should seriously consider is revamping the AMC theater. It's very dated by today's standards. I personally avoid going to see movies there because of the smaller screen sizes and poor sound quality.

Does GGP do any upscale malls or are they mostly middle-tier malls like QSM?

GGP does have some nice, upscale centers, and the way some of them look, you can tell where they're investing their time and money.

Good examples: Shops at La Cantera (San Antonio); Ala Moana Center (Honolulu); Natick Mall (Boston); Tysons Galleria (McLean, VA). Of course, all of these have totally different demographics than those of QSM, but I believe each are considered very upscale.

Tear it down and put in a parking garage. The wind on that side of the mall is brutal and a garage would protect people from the elements - and open the rest of the 300 acre parking lot for development.

Yes, I know it isn't really 300 acres, it just seems like it.

Promenade, although not as prime as Woodland Hills, must still be doing pretty well, as they've maintained all of their anchor stores (Dillard's, JC Penney, and Macy's...and the movie theater) aside from the Mervyns space. Last weekend I was up there it seemed like the movie theater was a big draw for the mall.

Well, what does help Promenade is that Utica Square will not lease to midrange stores, or has not to this point. No Victoria's Secret allowed for example. I myself like Promenade for all the structured parking. It's so much easier to go to Promenade if you have to hit Dillards or Macys and park in a garage right by the door instead of in the sea of parking at Woodland. Especially in the 100 degree summer heat. There's also no space in midtown for anything like a new "lifestyle" center to compete with Promenade.

Things seem to be changing at Utica Square (see the end of Miss Jacksons and Petty's Fine Foods being forced out) since Walt Helmerich passed a few years ago.

I've heard Macys was going to close the Promenade store, But the mall got them a sweetheart deal.

I heard Macy's was going to close at Promenade, as well. But Promenade is not doing well, at all, financially, and has been struggling for years.

I heard Macy's was going to close at Promenade, as well. But Promenade is not doing well, at all, financially, and has been struggling for years.

Yeah Promenade is going to have to really step up their game in the next few years especially with the possible Outlet Mall ( or malls) being built in Tulsa.

Yeah Promenade is going to have to really step up their game in the next few years especially with the possible Outlet Mall ( or malls) being built in Tulsa.

I haven't been to the Tulsa Promenade. My understanding is that it has been in a downhill slide for quite some time. The issue is its sandwiched between Utica Square, the best shopping center in the state, and Woodland Hills, Tulsa's very successful suburban, upscale-leaning middle class mall.

The new outlet mall will likely have a negative impact on Woodland Hills and the Tulsa Promenade, but may in fact do the Promenade in. It's going to be difficult for the Promenade to go upscale being that most upscale retailers entering the Tulsa market end up in Utica Square or nearby.

In OKC, the lack of an upscale destination shopping center like Utica Square or a lifestyle center means it isn't too late for Quail Springs Mall to fix its problems. If they wait until Chisholm Creek and Glimcher are completed, they could have issues.

I haven't read through quite all the comments. But has anyone considered Amazon.com as the downfall of the department store? It probably makes me a crappy consumer to an evil company that's shrinking retail centers globally.

But if I want a fiesta ware gravy boat and an all-clad ladle. Amazon. If I need a set of 2,000,000 thread count Egyptian cotton sheets. Amazon. Copy of Krull on blu-Ray? Amazon.

I just bought 4 pairs of Levi's off Amazon because the cut and size I like wasn't to be found in a 4 hour sojourn at penn square. I bought on Wednesday and they arrived Friday. One pair fit irregularly so I printed a free return barcode Saturday. My exchange will arrive Monday before my return is processed, free of charge.

They've even started to do food now. I was able to get all my import foods...British, Italian, Indian, Israeli. Oh and some razors, peanuts butter, toothpaste, some over the counter drugs, a bulk pack of sparkle...you get the idea. I think I'll keep going to the grocery store. But it's a viable option for hard to find imports and bulk buys. And cheap.

Convenience is the devil. And sooner than we may think, it might be delivered by drone.

Also on the topic of malls. I would really appreciate a premium outlet mall. As in a mall that sells last seasons fashion in addition to new merch. I've been to a few but recently Las Vegas blew me away. Round rock Texas is a good example. But I fear "the shoppes" would have poisoned the market for a developer to risk a premium mall.

I was utterly disappointed with the stores that sell "polo limited" the gap didn't sell the same clothes as the actual gap. Coach isn't real coach. The le cruset is made in China and the Levis store only stocks the cheap/thin denim. This surely isn't true of every store,and it wasn't of the sunglasses hut, but it feels like gainsville 20 years ago. And it wasn't a "treat yourself" experience so much as a "back to school". But hey there's a Ted's now!

The Macy's Promenade store does about 33% less in annual sales than the Quail Springs Macy's location. Sales have been falling at both locations for the past several years. I hadn't heard about the possible sweetheart deal with Promenade for Macy's, but something like that would be the only reason the Promenade store survived getting cut.

I haven't read through quite all the comments. But has anyone considered Amazon.com as the downfall of the department store? It probably makes me a crappy consumer to an evil company that's shrinking retail centers globally.

But if I want a fiesta ware gravy boat and an all-clad ladle. Amazon. If I need a set of 2,000,000 thread count Egyptian cotton sheets. Amazon. Copy of Krull on blu-Ray? Amazon.

I just bought 4 pairs of Levi's off Amazon because the cut and size I like wasn't to be found in a 4 hour sojourn at penn square. I bought on Wednesday and they arrived Friday. One pair fit irregularly so I printed a free return barcode Saturday. My exchange will arrive Monday before my return is processed, free of charge.

They've even started to do food now. I was able to get all my import foods...British, Italian, Indian, Israeli. Oh and some razors, peanuts butter, toothpaste, some over the counter drugs, a bulk pack of sparkle...you get the idea. I think I'll keep going to the grocery store. But it's a viable option for hard to find imports and bulk buys. And cheap.

Convenience is the devil. And sooner than we may think, it might be delivered by drone.

Amazon has to making a huge impact. I am probably up to spending at least 33-50% of my none food retail expenditures on Amazon, and I am not even that big of an Amazon fan. Online retailers should have to start collecting sales tax. It is unfair to city/state governments and B&M retail. The exemption may have made sense in the late 90s, but e-retail is established now and is not going any where, so there is no purpose for this law any more. The only reason it still exist is because people get so bent out of shape about "new" taxes (even though technically you have always been legally require to pay the tax yourself).

Online retailers should have to start collecting sales tax. It is unfair to city/state governments and B&M retail

In what sense is it unfair? City governments collect tax to pay for such things as schools, police, and fire departments. I can see no possible reason a resident of Oklahoma City Oklahoma should be expected to pay for these things in Bozeman Montana, and vice versa. State governments charge taxes to pay more for the infrastructure, the roads for example, which the delivery companies already pay in the fuel tax. The resident of Bozeman Montana should not be expected to pay for the upkeep of Meridian Blvd in OKC. Not to turn this all political, but why is the only argument for collecting tax from people who do not owe it always 'fairness', using some strange definition of 'fair' that appears in no dictionary?

If online shopping is killing brick and mortar (what, we're on the 20th anniversary of that claim now? 25th? Should I get a card? Something in silver perhaps?) then brick and mortar needs to start offering what online is offering, rather than whine about how taxes are 'unfair'. If I go to Amazon, I can have my order delivered to my door in two days. If I go to a store, delivery will be an extra charge, it will be sometime in the next 4-6 weeks, assuming it is even offered at all. If you can't compete, go ahead and die rather than scream about how 'unfair' it is that the other guy is better than you. I literally can NOT count the number of times I've gone into a store only to hear "We don't have that in stock, but we can order it". Yeah. So can I.

So I do.

In regards to Belk, it definitely has its appeal as weirdly enough I find a lot of younger kids like to go there in Dallas. It's like Kohl's but cooler in their eyes.

Zara would be another definite add to QSM as it coupled with H&M were/are my biggest places to shop when I go down to Dallas. Provides the added benefit of having clothes for myself as well as for the kids. Now I'd absolutely love a Suit Supply, but I could see them going into Chisholm Creek quicker than QSM.

Von Maur confuses the ever loving out of me because everyone was excited to go check it out and then realized that it seems to cater to well heeled older ladies with large amounts of disposable income. I've had quite a few 20-30 year old female friends walk in once and realize they'll probably never go again.

Are there any companies like Nebraska Furniture Mart that anchor malls? I know a ridiculous number of people go down to Dallas for Ikea and the like, although it probably wouldn't be considered moving Quail Springs "upscale".

Yeah I was excited about Von Maur but don't do much shopping there because it clearly caters to an older clientele. That may be their business model, but I think they would be more successful if they had more of a mix.

I agree on Belk. Though I would place it a notch above Kohl's (at least the Charlotte locations), it is a much cooler place to shop.

In what sense is it unfair? City governments collect tax to pay for such things as schools, police, and fire departments. I can see no possible reason a resident of Oklahoma City Oklahoma should be expected to pay for these things in Bozeman Montana, and vice versa. State governments charge taxes to pay more for the infrastructure, the roads for example, which the delivery companies already pay in the fuel tax. The resident of Bozeman Montana should not be expected to pay for the upkeep of Meridian Blvd in OKC. Not to turn this all political, but why is the only argument for collecting tax from people who do not owe it always 'fairness', using some strange definition of 'fair' that appears in no dictionary?

If online shopping is killing brick and mortar (what, we're on the 20th anniversary of that claim now? 25th? Should I get a card? Something in silver perhaps?) then brick and mortar needs to start offering what online is offering, rather than whine about how taxes are 'unfair'. If I go to Amazon, I can have my order delivered to my door in two days. If I go to a store, delivery will be an extra charge, it will be sometime in the next 4-6 weeks, assuming it is even offered at all. If you can't compete, go ahead and die rather than scream about how 'unfair' it is that the other guy is better than you. I literally can NOT count the number of times I've gone into a store only to hear "We don't have that in stock, but we can order it". Yeah. So can I.

So I do.

If you buy online in OKC from an online retailer based in Bozeman, the sales taxes would be collected and used in OKC. It wouldnt be for Bozeman, if thats the point you were trying to make.

You also say you do not owe it but legally you do. Its just that it isnt enforced. So this isnt a new tax.

And the reason "fairness" is used because thats exactly what B&M retailers want, some fairness. And you can think its not but it is hurting B&M stores, its hurting locally owned mom and pop stores, it hurts local real estate when stores close because they cant compete with Amazons built in 8-9% advantage. This is the truth, whether you want to believe it or not. And its only getting worse.

Not to mention, if Okla could collect online sales tax, youd see a lot of our budget problems relieved greatly.

Continue doing all your shopping on Amazon if you like, I do it myself occasionally. Just know that its at the expense of your local economy.

^^^ It really is hard to believe we still aren't taxing online purchases.

Nonetheless, I can't imagine doing clothes shopping online.

If you buy online in OKC from an online retailer based in Bozeman, the sales taxes would be collected and used in OKC. It wouldnt be for Bozeman, if thats the point you were trying to make.

You also say you do not owe it but legally you do. Its just that it isnt enforced. So this isnt a new tax.

Incorrect. It would obviously be collected by the retailer, wherever they may be located, and forwarded to OKC. I did not say the OKC resident does not owe the tax, I said the retailer, who gets no services from OKC and therefore owes no tax to OKC does not owe it. But being forced to collect it, and forward it, and maintain a huge database of tax rates for every single locality in the United States is 'fair', somehow.

You also claim I think it is not hurting B&M stores...yet I never said that. You then claim I do all my shopping on Amazon...yet I never said that.

Like I said in the QSM thread, this really doesn't surprise me. No investment has been made in that property. I think the carpet is still the same carpet that was in that space when it was John A. Brown. QSM has to chase a higher tier tenant to bring in better clientele. If they start bringing in discount retailers etc., they're going to go the same way as Crossroads.

Incorrect. It would obviously be collected by the retailer, wherever they may be located, and forwarded to OKC. I did not say the OKC resident does not owe the tax, I said the retailer, who gets no services from OKC and therefore owes no tax to OKC does not owe it. But being forced to collect it, and forward it, and maintain a huge database of tax rates for every single locality in the United States is 'fair', somehow.

You also claim I think it is not hurting B&M stores...yet I never said that. You then claim I do all my shopping on Amazon...yet I never said that.

The retailer in Bozeman gets no services from Oklahoma or OKC? On what roads then do you expect that package to get delivered on? Is Bozeman or Montanna paying for that Oklahoma road? And simple software can take care of the tax rates of cities and states.

The retailer in Bozeman gets no services from Oklahoma or OKC? On what roads then do you expect that package to get delivered on? Is Bozeman or Montanna paying for that Oklahoma road?

This was addressed in my original post, still available in this thread.

This was addressed in my original post, still available in this thread.

Fuel taxes arent sufficient enough, or the only thing that funds road maintenance. Sales taxes are a part of that equation too.

A business that gets a built in advantage over another because a state lacks the resources, or is handicapped by the federal govt on collecting a tax isnt fair for the one that has to pay it. Simple as that.

Belk would be the best fit for Quail Springs Mall; they do well at the Dallas Galleria and I believe there is a Belk in Owasso, as well, in the big lifestyle center up there. Meanwhile, other tenants are going to be following... it was written up today that Disney was going to be leaving the mall. Also, I was at Quail Springs Mall tonight, and another tenant said it would leave and not renew their lease. I won't say who that tenant is, but they've been there at least 5 years. :(

It's cool that there is a Belk in Stillwater. It's nicer and somewhat bigger than JCPenney.

Belk has a great ad campaign, that's what sets it apart from Kohl's. It may very well be pretty much the same stuff, but they sell it better.

In what sense is it unfair? City governments collect tax to pay for such things as schools, police, and fire departments. I can see no possible reason a resident of Oklahoma City Oklahoma should be expected to pay for these things in Bozeman Montana, and vice versa. State governments charge taxes to pay more for the infrastructure, the roads for example, which the delivery companies already pay in the fuel tax. The resident of Bozeman Montana should not be expected to pay for the upkeep of Meridian Blvd in OKC. Not to turn this all political, but why is the only argument for collecting tax from people who do not owe it always 'fairness', using some strange definition of 'fair' that appears in no dictionary?

If online shopping is killing brick and mortar (what, we're on the 20th anniversary of that claim now? 25th? Should I get a card? Something in silver perhaps?) then brick and mortar needs to start offering what online is offering, rather than whine about how taxes are 'unfair'. If I go to Amazon, I can have my order delivered to my door in two days. If I go to a store, delivery will be an extra charge, it will be sometime in the next 4-6 weeks, assuming it is even offered at all. If you can't compete, go ahead and die rather than scream about how 'unfair' it is that the other guy is better than you. I literally can NOT count the number of times I've gone into a store only to hear "We don't have that in stock, but we can order it". Yeah. So can I.

So I do.

When sales tax is collected online, it is for the ship to city, not the ship from city. So if I bought stuff on Amazon, Edmond would get the sales tax. Which is actually the law. In Oklahoma (and probably every other state) if you buy stuff online, you are supposed to pay use tax on those purchases at the end of the year, which nobody does (Except me, I promise OTC!). So really, the only thing the current law does is get online companies off the hook of collecting sales tax, and makes you a criminal if you don't pay it yourself.

You can make all the excuses you want, but B&M is at a 9% disadvantage, even online, from the get go. There is absolutely no reason that online should not be on the same playing field as B&M, except that people don't like paying sales tax. Which is fine, I don't like it either, so lets just get rid of it all together.

Incorrect. It would obviously be collected by the retailer, wherever they may be located, and forwarded to OKC. I did not say the OKC resident does not owe the tax, I said the retailer, who gets no services from OKC and therefore owes no tax to OKC does not owe it. But being forced to collect it, and forward it, and maintain a huge database of tax rates for every single locality in the United States is 'fair', somehow.

You also claim I think it is not hurting B&M stores...yet I never said that. You then claim I do all my shopping on Amazon...yet I never said that.

Simple software would handle the taxes just fine, so it would not place an undue burden on the e-retailer. In fact, basically every e-retailer already collects at least some sales tax, since they have to tax in states they are located in.

Your argument is basically it is "unfair" for the company to pay tax to somewhere they don't operate, but they aren't paying the tax... I am. And I do live here and use the services sales tax pays for.

How do you feel about Bestbuy.com and Walmart.com having to collect sales tax and forward it on? How come those e-retailers get screwed, just because they employee locals and support the local economy?

Also on the topic of malls. I would really appreciate a premium outlet mall. As in a mall that sells last seasons fashion in addition to new merch. I've been to a few but recently Las Vegas blew me away. Round rock Texas is a good example. But I fear "the shoppes" would have poisoned the market for a developer to risk a premium mall.

I was utterly disappointed with the stores that sell "polo limited" the gap didn't sell the same clothes as the actual gap. Coach isn't real coach. The le cruset is made in China and the Levis store only stocks the cheap/thin denim. This surely isn't true of every store,and it wasn't of the sunglasses hut, but it feels like gainsville 20 years ago. And it wasn't a "treat yourself" experience so much as a "back to school". But hey there's a Ted's now!

Is there really a difference in these stores (Gap, Polo, etc) at a Premium Outlet mall VS our outlet mall?

How do you feel about Bestbuy.com and Walmart.com having to collect sales tax and forward it on? How come those e-retailers get screwed, just because they employee locals and support the local economy?

Maybe we should reverse it and cut the tax when they actually locate locally and employ people and capital. Then fully tax Internet commerce. Actually support those willing to be part of the local economies, not just cherry pickers..

Maybe we should reverse it and cut the tax when they actually locate locally and employ people and capital. Then fully tax Internet commerce. Actually support those willing to be part of the local economies, not just cherry pickers..

Eh you'd destroy the selection. The whole "long tail" theory that Netflix perfected really benefits from having the entire US as your customers. I like the idea in theory, but I think you'd do more harm than good. Not to totally destroy any hope for this thread, but it's like the arguments against urban sprawl. Internet retailers are the highly centralized city core and brick and mortar are the sprawl, makes more sense to centralize but yes I figure eventually sales will be so heavily weighted for the internet retailers that governments will have no choice but to get the tax thing figured out.

Is there really a difference in these stores (Gap, Polo, etc) at a Premium Outlet mall VS our outlet mall?

I'm no expert, and have already given misinformation in this thread, but this is how it has been explained to me.......

A Premium Outlet will typically sell mainly overstock, end of life, and end of season products, that are of the same quality as the actual retail establishment. Products that were manufactured to be sold in the actual flagship store, or Major Natuional retailer. (Dillards, Nordstroms, Saks etc..)

"Most" of the outlet shops we have here in OKC, are manufactures that for the most part are manufacturing these goods specifically for their "outlet" retail locations. There are separate SKUs, and UPC codes for the goods sold that will only be found in the outlet stores. These goods might look very similar to what you would find in a flagship store...same cut, and same color/ and or design..but are typically made with a little less quality fabrics. Margins are actually higher, even though it is marketed as 40/50/60% off.

^^^ It really is hard to believe we still aren't taxing online purchases.

Nonetheless, I can't imagine doing clothes shopping online.

This state DOES tax online purchases - it's just paid when you file at the end of the year. It's called a Use Tax, and though enforcement is pretty lax, legally you are required to pay it for all purchases made from a retailer outside of the state. See: https://www.taxslayer.com/support/838/Oklahoma-Use-Tax?language=1 and Oklahoma Internet Sales Tax | Nolo.com (http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/oklahoma-internet-sales-tax.html)

This state DOES tax online purchases - it's just paid when you file at the end of the year. It's called a Use Tax, and though enforcement is pretty lax, legally you are required to pay it for all purchases made from a retailer outside of the state. See: https://www.taxslayer.com/support/838/Oklahoma-Use-Tax?language=1 and Oklahoma Internet Sales Tax | Nolo.com (http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/oklahoma-internet-sales-tax.html)

Nobody pays it though and it's not enforced. So basically all online purchases from stores outside the state are non-taxed.

Nobody pays it though and it's not enforced. So basically all online purchases from stores outside the state are non-taxed.

Yes, and unless Amazon wants to build a fulfillment center in our state, we are left waiting on our do nothing US Congress to pass the Marketplace Fairness Act to be able to collect this tax. Of note, I believe all of Oklahoma's congressmen have opposed it. This seems to be contrary to their claims that they are for small businesses and Main St.

I must be only one of a small handful that does, then... Granted, I don't go through every online purchase and calculate it that way; instead, I take the easy way out and let TurboTax do the automatic "AGI multiplied by 0.056%" option. It makes it so I owe state taxes most years, but honestly, not much. If I'm legally obligated to do it, even if enforcement is nonexistent, why wouldn't I comply? It's the same deal with driving around with fog lamps on. Never seen a cop in this state pull someone over for it, but Title 47 O.S. § 12-217(D) prohibits driving around with fog lamps on while visibility is greater than 1/2 mile - and it is blinding to other drivers - so I comply with the law. Amazing concept, apparently.

I honestly don't know the specifics of how they would do it, but use taxes really should be either enforced or collected at the point of sale as sales taxes.

I think there needs to be a new thread devoted to Internet shopping and taxation and the last few pages of posts moved to it.

I think there needs to be a new thread devoted to Internet shopping and taxation and the last few pages of posts moved to it.

+1

I also pay the "use tax" to OK each year, it's generally less money that paying actual taxes on the items bought throughout the year would've been. Yeah, I could *not* do it, but why not, it's a negligible amount for me...

I wonder how H&M is doing. My wife was and is a huge fan of the brand and while she was ecstatic about the new store, she found the layout and selection to be pretty underwhelming. We both find Quail to be a very depressing mall atmosphere so it's not often that we feel the urge to drive from Yukon.

Kind of joking, kind of serious. But what are the odds that we ever see Penn Square expand with either a new Wing or add a floor? I kind of have more hope in that than Quail living up to its potential.

I wonder how H&M is doing. My wife was and is a huge fan of the brand and while she was ecstatic about the new store, she found the layout and selection to be pretty underwhelming. We both find Quail to be a very depressing mall atmosphere so it's not often that we feel the urge to drive from Yukon.

Kind of joking, kind of serious. But what are the odds that we ever see Penn Square expand with either a new Wing or add a floor? I kind of have more hope in that than Quail living up to its potential.

Besides the logistics, I don't think you can ever plan on PSM expanding up or out. If PSM were larger and could accommodate every tenant that wants a space there, then their cool factor would go down, they wouldn't be able to charge what they do for space, and wouldn't be as successful. PSM is right where they want to be. Being able to turn down tenants gives them a certain cache. It would be much easier for Quail to right their ship if they had someone managing that knew what they were doing.

Besides the logistics, I don't think you can ever plan on PSM expanding up or out. If PSM were larger and could accommodate every tenant that wants a space there, then their cool factor would go down, they wouldn't be able to charge what they do for space, and wouldn't be as successful. PSM is right where they want to be. Being able to turn down tenants gives them a certain cache. It would be much easier for Quail to right their ship if they had someone managing that knew what they were doing.

If this were the case, I wonder why PSM has so many low-end tenants like Payless and Gamestop, especially since both retailers have locations within a stones throw outside of the mall. You would think that eventually, the mall would squeeze these stores out in favor of higher-end stores wanting in.

If this were the case, I wonder why PSM has so many low-end tenants like Payless and Gamestop, especially since both retailers have locations within a stones throw outside of the mall. You would think that eventually, the mall would squeeze these stores out in favor of higher-end stores wanting in.

Have you ever heard the term "money talks?" Some of these stores have wink and nod deals with Simon....some, maybe even on paper, from getting the boot. You're being awfully picky too. It's not like those two stores are dumps or something. Nationally recognized brands that have been around for a long, long time.

edit: PSM is in good company. The Galleria (Houston): Payless and GameStop. Northpark Center (Dallas) has a GameStop.

Have you ever heard the term "money talks?" Some of these stores have wink and nod deals with Simon....some, maybe even on paper, from getting the boot. You're being awfully picky too. It's not like those two stores are dumps or something. Nationally recognized brands that have been around for a long, long time.

I don't think so. I can give Gamestop a pass but Payless in particular probably needs to go. The PSM location isn't even their newer format. You walk in and it looks like you've traveled back in time to the 1980s. It's like the Radio Shack of shoe stores.