Why is that the turnpike roads are in good conditions compared to our freeways? Is it because they make enough money off of the tolls to properly maintain them? Why are our freeways junk? Is it because we don't get enough money from taxes to maintain them properly?

I had a thought. Why not make every freeway a tollway? It is pretty clear that a "gas tax" approach isn't the way to go anymore considering we have much more fuel efficient cars and cars that use electricity. This is just brainstorming, so boo's and hisses won't offend me. What would the repercussions be for an idea like that?

This thread is going to be good. That has been suggested many times. Florida is doing that according to JTF and Dallas is going to widen highways at the expense of free lanes will come tolled lanes. So instead of a 10 lane highway with all free lanes, you might get a 12 lane highway with 6 tolled and 6 free.

Also what I think they should do with I-35 to Norman, Add a free HOV lane in the meantime cutting off a shoulder, and then eventually add elevated toll lanes with two in each direction.

Also what I think they should do with I-35 to Norman, Add a free HOV lane in the meantime cutting off a shoulder, and then eventually add elevated toll lanes with two in each direction.

Yikes, that would be pricey and time consuming. It would be cool if it happened though. Of course...maybe extended elevated road ways in oklahoma aren't the best idea...ice, earthquakes, etc...

This thread is going to be good. That has been suggested many times. Florida is doing that according to JTF and Dallas is going to widen highways at the expense of free lanes will come tolled lanes. So instead of a 10 lane highway with all free lanes, you might get a 12 lane highway with 6 tolled and 6 free.

I guess I haven't seen this before. Hopefully it doesn't open old wounds :)

Yikes, that would be pricey and time consuming. It would be cool if it happened though. Of course...maybe extended elevated road ways in oklahoma aren't the best idea...ice, earthquakes, etc...

Not sure about the earthquake thing here but the flyovers in Dallas, Albuquerque, and Denver don't seem to have any problems. Also, Dallas has extended bridges but they work fine and their climate isn't too different than ours.

As for the earthquake thing, L.A. has tons of extended bridges(110 Express lanes are the best example but they have tons of HOV flyovers that are elevated for miles) and as does Santiago in Chile both cities that are prone to quakes and stronger ones I might add.

The only thing would be pricing, as with current laws, they would have to be paid for up front unless a deal was worked out with the OTA to build and maintain them or laws were changed to allow ODOT to take out bonds which I think should happen anyways.

Anyhow, I don't think that is warranted at this time. Before I would like to see 4 elevated lanes to Norman, I want to see light-rail going down I-35 first.

The next step I think that needs to be taken with the back-ups on I-35 south is an HOV lane in place of the left hand shoulder. There is also room to expand the right hand shoulder a foot or two. Plenty of cities have many highways without a left hand shoulder, so it shouldn't be an issue.

I wonder if a creative solution to infrastructure upgrades could happen in the form of the OTA issuing bonds to construct the infrastructure immediately, while ODOT makes the payments to the OTA which pays the bonds. This would allow us to have these improvements now, while a different agency takes on the debt.

I wonder if a creative solution to infrastructure upgrades could happen in the form of the OTA issuing bonds to construct the infrastructure immediately, while ODOT makes the payments to the OTA which pays the bonds. This would allow us to have these improvements now, while a different agency takes on the debt.

No, per law "bond sales are used for the sole purpose of constructing, maintaining and operating the Oklahoma turnpike system", if the legislature was open to wider use of debt for ODOT, they should change the law/rules they set for ODOT.

Because of anticipated decreases in gas use, some states....Oregon I think is one, are going to a per-mile use tax. We still need a gas tax to capture out of state users but the per-mile is a good alternative as long as 100% goes back to transportation. Unlike many on here, i also have no problem with toll roads

No, per law "bond sales are used for the sole purpose of constructing, maintaining and operating the Oklahoma turnpike system", if the legislature was open to wider use of debt for ODOT, they should change the law/rules they set for ODOT.

What's not to prevent it from being a turnpike that is bought by ODOT after it is built.

OTA sells bonds and builds it in 2 years, while ODOT puts the money it would have uses to slowly construct over a 10 year period into a separate account. When they have the full cost they can pay OTA to take control of it.

It's generally a moot point, because I'm pretty sure that the recently signed highway bill included a clause that prohibits existing interstates from being turned into tollways. I'll check, but I'm 95% sure.

That doesn't mean new lanes couldn't be tolled, but I personally don't advocate for any new lanes anyway. Turning the existing systems into tollways would be a good way of enabling user fees instead of a VMT fee-based system...

This thread is going to be good. That has been suggested many times. Florida is doing that according to JTF and Dallas is going to widen highways at the expense of free lanes will come tolled lanes. So instead of a 10 lane highway with all free lanes, you might get a 12 lane highway with 6 tolled and 6 free.

Denver has implemented a similar idea; they turned their HOV lanes into dual use lanes during rush hour traffic. If you're under the passenger limit, you have to pay tolls to use it - but it's free if you're over the passenger limit. The toll amount also varies depending on the amount of traffic on the road, if I remember correctly. I would be okay with Oklahoma implementing similar lanes here, as long as there's still lanes that are completely free.

Yeah. Caltrans has their express lanes free to HOV but you have to have a Ezpass sticker(I don't know the name for it) on your windshield I believe.

What is a HOV??? I've seen them when going through other states and have driven on them. Them seem faster with less traffic? As far as tolls. I try to avoid them since I'm retired and on a fixed income.

High Occupancy Vehicle. It's a carpool lane. Two or more people to a car and so-on. I think motorcycles may also use them. It rewards using using a smaller vehicular footprint to carry more passengers by (usually) providing them with less congestion and shorter travel times.

What is a HOV??? I've seen them when going through other states and have driven on them. Them seem faster with less traffic? As far as tolls. I try to avoid them since I'm retired and on a fixed income.

Essentially a car pool lane. If you have at least 1 other person in the car, you're free to use it.

Not sure about the earthquake thing here but the flyovers in Dallas, Albuquerque, and Denver don't seem to have any problems. Also, Dallas has extended bridges but they work fine and their climate isn't too different than ours.

As for the earthquake thing, L.A. has tons of extended bridges(110 Express lanes are the best example but they have tons of HOV flyovers that are elevated for miles) and as does Santiago in Chile both cities that are prone to quakes and stronger ones I might add.

The only thing would be pricing, as with current laws, they would have to be paid for up front unless a deal was worked out with the OTA to build and maintain them or laws were changed to allow ODOT to take out bonds which I think should happen anyways.

Anyhow, I don't think that is warranted at this time. Before I would like to see 4 elevated lanes to Norman, I want to see light-rail going down I-35 first.

The next step I think that needs to be taken with the back-ups on I-35 south is an HOV lane in place of the left hand shoulder. There is also room to expand the right hand shoulder a foot or two. Plenty of cities have many highways without a left hand shoulder, so it shouldn't be an issue.
Yeah Albuquerque generally has mild weather all year round. They had a state of emergency declared, that had the same thing happened in OK it would be meh weather sucks today.

Simply Albuquerque doesn't have many problems because they have maybe 1-2 weeks a year with crappy weather. The rest is pretty nice, all 4 seasons none of the extremes.

OP can you give some specific examples? In the metro area, I44 and I35 aren't too bad, but I suppose it depends on what type of vehicle you drive.

I do have a particular dislike for the exit from I44 westbound split off to the right near OCCC (where the center and left lanes go to 240). That curve seems just washboardy as hell.

OP can you give some specific examples? In the metro area, I44 and I35 aren't too bad, but I suppose it depends on what type of vehicle you drive.

I do have a particular dislike for the exit from I44 westbound split off to the right near OCCC (where the center and left lanes go to 240). That curve seems just washboardy as hell.

I-35 is in pretty bad shape heading north out of the city. Seems like I-40 east out of town is pretty bad too. I think most of the other's are ok, but if you compare quality of our roads vs say, texas, they are bad by comparison. Our tollways seem to be a lot better quality (in general) when compared to the other freeways. Also, general maintenance is bad all around. Lane paint, signs, etc can get pretty bad in areas. Just my observations and a potential idea to provide more consistent funding to make our roads not the worst in the country.

I-35 is in pretty bad shape heading north out of the city. Seems like I-40 east out of town is pretty bad too. I think most of the other's are ok, but if you compare quality of our roads vs say, texas, they are bad by comparison. Our tollways seem to be a lot better quality (in general) when compared to the other freeways. Also, general maintenance is bad all around. Lane paint, signs, etc can get pretty bad in areas. Just my observations and a potential idea to provide more consistent funding to make our roads not the worst in the country.

Most of those two section problem are they are the oldest sections of our interstate grade roads that are in there original configuration, yes they really should have been maintained better but would not be built that way again even at the same lane count. The rest of the metro's network has already been either entirely rebuilt to a newer design, widened or refurbished knocking off some of the worst parts of the original design, had a special project done to fix bottleneck/dangerous points or were just decades newer.

It would be one thing if they were still only handling the capacity they were designed for or less but they likely have somewhere between 150% and 200% of the planned max capacity during rush periods.

I-35 is in pretty bad shape heading north out of the city. Seems like I-40 east out of town is pretty bad too. I think most of the other's are ok, but if you compare quality of our roads vs say, texas, they are bad by comparison. Our tollways seem to be a lot better quality (in general) when compared to the other freeways. Also, general maintenance is bad all around. Lane paint, signs, etc can get pretty bad in areas. Just my observations and a potential idea to provide more consistent funding to make our roads not the worst in the country.

The highways in Texas are indeed very nice. I always thought it was interesting how it seems that I35 at the border crossing OK/TX always seems REALLY smooth on the TX side. Almost like an insult or something.

I think it would be worth considering that TX has a lot more money than OK, and the DFW area seems to love building flyovers and complex highways.

In OK, it seems the focus is still on repairing our bridges, so who knows if they'll find the money to make the interstates nice and smooth.

As big as the state of Texas is, there are nearly TWICE as many people per square mile as there are in Oklahoma (roughly 100 people per square mile versus roughly 55 for Oklahoma). You can start - and end - right there when explaining why Texas has better roads. JUST based on population, they should have twice as much money to spend, everything else being equal.

But everything ISN'T equal.

They have many, many thousands of miles that are virtually uninhabited. Not just western Oklahoma sparse; I mean near-desert sparse. Those areas require fewer roads, so more money can be directed where there is more population.

But in addition to that, they have more corporate wealth there than just about anyplace in the country not named New York or California.

Every time I see people comparing our roads to Texas' roads I have to roll my eyes. We can't compete there. We NEVER will be able to, nor will any of Texas' other neighbors. It will never, EVER be an apples-to-apples comparison. If you want to make fair comparisons to Oklahoma roads, look at Missouri, Arkansas, Louisiana (OMG), Kansas, Nebraska... ...THOSE are fair comparisons.

I-35 is in pretty bad shape heading north out of the city. Seems like I-40 east out of town is pretty bad too. I think most of the other's are ok, but if you compare quality of our roads vs say, texas, they are bad by comparison. Our tollways seem to be a lot better quality (in general) when compared to the other freeways. Also, general maintenance is bad all around. Lane paint, signs, etc can get pretty bad in areas. Just my observations and a potential idea to provide more consistent funding to make our roads not the worst in the country.I-35 is going to widened to six lanes to Waterloo and is currently being reconstructed from Guthrie to HWY 51. I-40 is going to be completely rebuilt and I believe lanes added to Shawnee by 2025.

But I do agree with you that maintenance is horrible. Our highways really need a jump.

High Occupancy Vehicle. It's a carpool lane. Two or more people to a car and so-on. I think motorcycles may also use them. It rewards using using a smaller vehicular footprint to carry more passengers by (usually) providing them with less congestion and shorter travel times.Motorcycles and electric cars can use them as well.

As big as the state of Texas is, there are nearly TWICE as many people per square mile as there are in Oklahoma (roughly 100 people per square mile versus roughly 55 for Oklahoma). You can start - and end - right there when explaining why Texas has better roads. JUST based on population, they should have twice as much money to spend, everything else being equal.

But everything ISN'T equal.

They have many, many thousands of miles that are virtually uninhabited. Not just western Oklahoma sparse; I mean near-desert sparse. Those areas require fewer roads, so more money can be directed where there is more population.

But in addition to that, they have more corporate wealth there than just about anyplace in the country not named New York or California.

Every time I see people comparing our roads to Texas' roads I have to roll my eyes. We can't compete there. We NEVER will be able to, nor will any of Texas' other neighbors. It will never, EVER be an apples-to-apples comparison. If you want to make fair comparisons to Oklahoma roads, look at Missouri, Arkansas, Louisiana (OMG), Kansas, Nebraska... ...THOSE are fair comparisons.I think another major issue, something brought up that I got bashed for, is how many miles of state highway Oklahoma has compared to a lot of our peer states. I mean Oklahoma seems like one giant low density city. It's amazing when you fly from L.A. to OKC and see Arizona, New Mexico, the Texas Panhandle, then you see Oklahoma and the lights go on for miles and they don't stop.

The highways in Texas are indeed very nice. I always thought it was interesting how it seems that I35 at the border crossing OK/TX always seems REALLY smooth on the TX side. Almost like an insult or something.

Really? Are we talking about the same road? I have taken that drive well over 100 times, and all I can recall is the dead man's curve, aptly near the porno shop, right when you cross the river, and driving on about 3 miles worth of decaying asphalt that makes the most hideous road noise until you get the Gainesville city limit.

The first 10 miles or so of 35 in OK are actually one of the best stretches of 35 in the state (thanks Chickasaw Nation!) I guess that was the deal they had to pull to blind people by their giga-casino.


I think it would be worth considering that TX has a lot more money than OK, and the DFW area seems to love building flyovers and complex highways.

Tolls, tolls, tolls! There has been no added freeway capacity in this area for about a decade. Literally EVERYTHING that has been built since then has had some sort of toll component. Its pretty much the same story in Austin and Houston. If you don't think it's a big deal, you should listen to my coworkers, some of whom have household NTTA bills exceeding $400/month.

FYI, TxDOT has a debt load of around $19 billion (up from just $4 billion in 2006) and NTTA (operator of toll roads in Dallas) has about $10 billion.


Every time I see people comparing our roads to Texas' roads I have to roll my eyes. We can't compete there. We NEVER will be able to, nor will any of Texas' other neighbors. It will never, EVER be an apples-to-apples comparison. If you want to make fair comparisons to Oklahoma roads, look at Missouri, Arkansas, Louisiana (OMG), Kansas, Nebraska... ...THOSE are fair comparisons.

I agree but you are just screaming in the wind at this point. Its the same story with the same posters when threads like these pop up. Hell, I don't even know why I am responding to this thread since it won't matter...bored at work today, I guess.

Really? Are we talking about the same road? I have taken that drive well over 100 times, and all I can recall is the dead man's curve, aptly near the porno shop, right when you cross the river, and driving on about 3 miles worth of decaying asphalt that makes the most hideous road noise until you get the Gainesville city limit.

The first 10 miles or so of 35 in OK are actually one of the best stretches of 35 in the state (thanks Chickasaw Nation!) I guess that was the deal they had to pull to blind people by their giga-casino.



Tolls, tolls, tolls! There has been no added freeway capacity in this area for about a decade. Literally EVERYTHING that has been built since then has had some sort of toll component. Its pretty much the same story in Austin and Houston. If you don't think it's a big deal, you should listen to my coworkers, some of whom have household NTTA bills exceeding $400/month.

FYI, TxDOT has a debt load of around $19 billion (up from just $4 billion in 2006) and NTTA (operator of toll roads in Dallas) has about $10 billion.



I agree but you are just screaming in the wind at this point. Its the same story with the same posters when threads like these pop up. Hell, I don't even know why I am responding to this thread since it won't matter...bored at work today, I guess.I have taken that stretch of highway going well over the posted speed limit and had no problems with it. So if someone is unable to take that going the posted speed limit, than they need to learn how to drive.

Also, this stretch of highway is going to be widened to 8 lanes one mile into Oklahoma.

I also have to say, Texas has their share of really bad highways. They also have an excellent record of paying off their debt, so I wouldn't worry about how much debt they have right now.

I fully support turning all freeways in Oklahoma into toll roads. Several years ago this idea was discussed in depth on OKCTalk. In addition to tolling every freeway I would close more than half of all existing interchanges. For Example, along I-35 through Norman I would close the entrance/exits at Lindsey, Robinson, Tecumseh, and Indian Hills, and open a new one at Rock Creek Road.

I support tolling I-35 and I-40 outside of the metro areas. I think the highways should remain free, for now, in OKC and Tulsa. As time goes on and commute patterns change, then the state can look at tolling highways within the metro areas. The money generated from the toll should go towards infrastructure repairs and upgrades.

I don't think any new highways in Oklahoma are needed until ODOT does something about these interchanges in the OKC area.

Yah, you do that and all the retired people like me will just be driving the surface roads and causing massive traffic jams. I'll do about anything to avoid a toll road. Lots of other people like me would also. I think I've only took the Kilpatrick twice since the free day. Once when I was not paying attension and was in the wrong lane and wound up on it. I was tired and coming back from a cross country trip. The other because I was running late to something and it was the only option to get there on time.

I support tolling I-35 and I-40 outside of the metro areas. I think the highways should remain free, for now, in OKC and Tulsa. As time goes on and commute patterns change, then the state can look at tolling highways within the metro areas. The money generated from the toll should go towards infrastructure repairs and upgrades.

I don't think any new highways in Oklahoma are needed until ODOT does something about these interchanges in the OKC area.


Wouldn't this hurt the economy? I35 and I40 are practically the crossroads of America and who knows how many semi trucks pass through in all 4 directions in a given hour. I40 especially can be scary to drive when it's windy due to the sheer number of semis you pass on the way.

Wouldn't this hurt the economy? I35 and I40 are practically the crossroads of America and who knows how many semi trucks pass through in all 4 directions in a given hour. I40 especially can be scary to drive when it's windy due to the sheer number of semis you pass on the way.

They would almost surely need to have a higher rate than now to actually push drivers to take an alternate freeway on long routes, sure they will gripe and some would switch to the older state/federal highways to get around. If they actually did start using other interstate routes then we would see an improvement in how well the freeways would hold up, the economic impact they make certainly does not get enough money to the state to pay for the extra maintenance it needs to do because of long haul traffic if the fed even went through on make states pay for all of that, as long as a much higher percentage of the maintenance funds are coming from federal than state/local money to do maintenance maybe that works out.

While sure to get factored into product costs, for most items would be pretty a trivial. The entire cost to a semi to drive across a quarter of the state on turnpikes is around $20.

I-35/I-40 is more of a Continental Crossroads within the United States interstate system: (North: I-35 from Duluth, Minnesota to Laredo, Texas, south; west I-40 from Barstow, California to Wilmington, North Carolina east); Oklahoma City has a lot of potential to maximize the fact that we are the interchange of those crossroads.

Yah, you do that and all the retired people like me will just be driving the surface roads and causing massive traffic jams. I'll do about anything to avoid a toll road. Lots of other people like me would also.

Is living closer to where you are trying to go one of the things you are willing to do?

On a related note - for those who support toll roads to reduce urban sprawl - Orlando has proven that doesn't work. Traffic on Orlando toll roads is just as bad as any free road and Orlando can sprawl with the best of them. However, the taxpayers at-large aren't picking up the maintenance tab.

I-35/I-40 is more of a Continental Crossroads within the United States interstate system: (North: I-35 from Duluth, Minnesota to Laredo, Texas, south; west I-40 from Barstow, California to Wilmington, North Carolina east); Oklahoma City has a lot of potential to maximize the fact that we are the interchange of those crossroads.

Wouldn't taxing interstate truck traffic to lower the tax burden on locals be part of that 'maximizing the potential'? After all, what are interstate truckers going to do - go around Oklahoma? That would cost more than just paying the toll.

Wouldn't taxing interstate truck traffic to lower the tax burden on locals be part of that 'maximizing the potential'? After all, what are interstate truckers going to do - go around Oklahoma? That would cost more than just paying the toll.

Maybe I'm wrong, but don't we already technically toll the truck drivers at those weigh stations? I don't know Jack about that so I could be wrong.

Just the facts. I live east of I-35 in Edmond. I'm retired, I drive the whole metro for stuff like church stuff, different doctors, shopping. So what do I live closer to??? Also I cannot live on a small lot. I have chickens and a large garden that I live out of. I would not fit in with a neighborhood that has restictions. Neighbors who complain about my bbq smoker for an example. I have my pet chickens so I would have to have a place that I could have my chickens and roster that crows at 430 am. I guess I'm too country. I'm retired but still have to go places in the metro. As I said, tolls are for those on fixed incomes is another expanse that makes it harder to make ends meet.

I-35 is going to widened to six lanes to Waterloo and is currently being reconstructed from Guthrie to HWY 51.

That's good news for Stillwater people who take highway 51 to I-35, rather than 177 and 33.

That's good news for Stillwater people who take highway 51 to I-35, rather than 177 and 33.
I'm not familiar with 177 and 33. I'll have to check that one out.

I'm not familiar with 177 and 33. I'll have to check that one out.

Highway 33 is in very good condition between I-35 and 177. But it needs another bridge built across the Cimarron River to help fill in the remaining 8 miles that aren't 4 lanes. Highway 33 provides 4 lane access from I-35 for Langston University.

I support tolling I-35 and I-40 outside of the metro areas. I think the highways should remain free, for now, in OKC and Tulsa. As time goes on and commute patterns change, then the state can look at tolling highways within the metro areas. The money generated from the toll should go towards infrastructure repairs and upgrades.

I don't think any new highways in Oklahoma are needed until ODOT does something about these interchanges in the OKC area.

Exactly what I would like to see. We need new weigh stations to control the truckers that can't follow the rules and then interstates should be tolled outside of the major cities and then you can drive them as needed within the proper areas of large cities and then the tolls begin again on your way out of town.

ODOT has built several new weigh stations across the state in the last few years; the first opened in 2012 as a point-of-entry station just south of the Kansas-Oklahoma border in Kay County on the southbound side of I-35. I know there's one out in Beckham County, just east of the Texas-Oklahoma border on the eastbound side of I-40, and one is under construction in Love County, just north of the Texas-Oklahoma border on the northbound side of I-35. I believe one is either under construction or nearing completion out east on I-40 near the Arkansas-Oklahoma border as well.

I think another major issue, something brought up that I got bashed for, is how many miles of state highway Oklahoma has compared to a lot of our peer states. I mean Oklahoma seems like one giant low density city. It's amazing when you fly from L.A. to OKC and see Arizona, New Mexico, the Texas Panhandle, then you see Oklahoma and the lights go on for miles and they don't stop.

Consider this though. While not the only factor, it is a major contributor.

12030

34% and 42% of NM and AZ is owned by the feds

Just the facts. I live east of I-35 in Edmond. I'm retired, I drive the whole metro for stuff like church stuff, different doctors, shopping. So what do I live closer to??? Also I cannot live on a small lot. I have chickens and a large garden that I live out of. I would not fit in with a neighborhood that has restictions. Neighbors who complain about my bbq smoker for an example. I have my pet chickens so I would have to have a place that I could have my chickens and roster that crows at 430 am. I guess I'm too country. I'm retired but still have to go places in the metro. As I said, tolls are for those on fixed incomes is another expanse that makes it harder to make ends meet.

I understand your delima but the reality is we don't have the money to support people living this way anymore. In the near future you, and many others, will have decide what is more important - chickens or doctors. It took an enormous amount of debt to set this lifestyle up and we can't afford to maintain it AND pay the debt back. Something is going to have to give.

I would not fit in a small lot city or sub situation. I would not have a front lawn. I would have it in a vegtable garden. I would have a horse trailer and flat bed trailer in the driveway and 3 pickups parked on the street. I sleep with a tv on and since I have hearing loss it is turned up. I smoke stuff on my smoker so that is another thing neighbors would complain about. I have lots of tools so I need the large shop and yes I work on my trucks at my house. Basically I might own a house in town but I'd be in the slammer for nuiceses. Better me in the country.

Smoker BBQ of course. Reminds me, I'm due for some baby backs in the next day or so.

Sorry to pop a few balloons, but it is illegal to toll an existing Interstate highway unless you add capacity. That is how Texas does it (I-35 and 635 in Dallas, I-10 in Houston). While a good case could be made for certain suburban and urban interstates, it wouldn't make any sense to do it in the rural areas.

Also regarding truck weights:

"Notwithstanding anything else herein contained to the contrary, the Corporation Commission of the State of Oklahoma shall exercise the jurisdiction now or hereafter vested in it to regulate and control the operation of motor carriers of passengers and freight, using or desiring to use any turnpike project, in the manner and to the extent that it regulates or controls such carriers using the highways of the state. "
Laws 1968, c. 415, § 1711, operative July 1, 1968.

This also applies to State highways.