It amazes me that people think that courtesy, civility, respect, and proper use of our language should be the exclusive domain of a certain economic class or used only in certain places or situations.

It amazes me that people think that courtesy, civility, respect, and proper use of our language should be the exclusive domain of a certain economic class or used only in certain places or situations.

Who said "courtesy, civility, and respect" should be the exclusive domain of a certain economic class or used only in certain places or situations? Is that somewhere in this thread?

And I am sorry you have to live in a world where you a guy at a coffee shop says, no problem, boss, when directing someone towards plastic forks. Lol. I will go back and lecture the youth on his improper uses of our language. I won't mention to him that pretty much every generation of youth uses its own slang vocabulary.

Seriously though, I don't mind at all the disagreement, but drop the judgment. That's far more unbecoming than no problem.

In all fairness, Dan, someone upthread essentially said that saying "please", "thank you" and "you're welcome" was snooty. Or actually, "snoody," which I took to mean snooty.

From reading all this some it seems like the best course of action would be for some people just to stay home.

https://i.imgflip.com/beytn.gif

I've never had white table cloth service when requesting directions to the self serve forks.

If white table cloth service is saying you're welcome instead of no problem boss, I'm not sure anyone here will ever see eye to eye.

From reading all this some it seems like the best course of action would be for some people just to stay home.

Or in the alternative some servers should find a different line of work.

In all fairness, Dan, someone upthread essentially said that saying "please", "thank you" and "you're welcome" was snooty. Or actually, "snoody," which I took to mean snooty.

Okay, fair enough, but I am certainly not saying that. I must have missed it.

Anyway, this actually has been one of my favorite threads because it's not often enough that you really re-think something. I would have never given some of these issues another thought, but it certainly is helpful to understand the different ways people perceive things.

JB, So if a server was just a little to informal for you then they should just quit and go do something else? That makes sense.

I want to be clear that being treated informally by servers doesn't upset me in any way, I'd just prefer they not do it and I'm clearly not alone.

I consider it at least slightly disrespectful and like any other less-than-stellar service, influences how I feel about an establishment and the likelihood I will return, just as excellent service has the opposite effect.

This thread makes me want to tip better, and I already tip pretty well.

I want to be clear that being treated informally by servers doesn't upset me in any way, I'd just prefer they not do it and I'm clearly not alone.

I consider it at least slightly disrespectful and like any other less-than-stellar service, influences how I feel about an establishment and the likelihood I will return, just as excellent service has the opposite effect.

I feel the same way. Any "upset" I feel is not based on feeling personally disrespected; it is based on experience as a server and as an employer of service industry personnel, and the "cringe" I feel when I see people in that industry inadvertently do things that I KNOW cost them and their employers both customers and money.

The problem that I have with the arguments in this thread against the requirement for basic courtesy and careful language is that people making that case are all posting based on what bothers (or doesn't bother) THEM. "I don't mind 'no problem', so it is OK to use in a service environment." "I don't mind being called 'boss', or 'chief', so it is OK to use those terms." "I don't want to be inauthentic, so if I'M not feeling it, I shouldn't have to say 'you're welcome'". This completely ignores the people who ARE made uncomfortable or who feel slighted.

It explains a lot about why it is difficult today to find and train good, professional servers. The entire point of the service industry is TO SERVE OTHERS. When everything is viewed through the lens of self, OF COURSE service to others takes a hit. I'm sorry if that offends, but I am speaking truth.

It explains a lot about why it is difficult today to find and train good, professional servers. The entire point of the service industry is TO SERVE OTHERS. When everything is viewed through the lens of self, OF COURSE service to others takes a hit. I'm sorry if that offends, but I am speaking truth.I think this observation applies not only to the service industry, but to professionalism in general within our current culture.

It's not just the "current generation" that seems to lack a sense of professional pride. For at least the past half-century, far too many children have been brought up in an atmosphere that stresses "equality" (and awards trophies to every participant in a competition, so that nobody feels left out) over all else. Pride in being "the best" is denigrated (oh, oh! Is that word racist?) and nobody is permitted to feel the shame of having failed.

Is it any surprise that we're reaching a lowest common denominator of professionalism, not only as servers, but as carpenters, as mechanics, you name it? If the best performance and the worst receive the same reward, why bother to try to improve?

Perhaps that's why professional sports are so popular. They still reward excellence and punish failure; in doing so they remind us that success and failure still exist. There's hope for the future, then....

Seriously though, I don't mind at all the disagreement, but drop the judgment. That's far more unbecoming than no problem.

Actually, this is kind of funny. The judgement made was actually the observation that because it was less than a white tablecloth setting than there was no reason to expect anything proper.... like lower paid service people or those working in more casual places aren't, nor should be, capable of proper behavior. THAT is judgement. I am saying proper manners is NOT the domain of a certain sect.

Actually, this is kind of funny. The judgement made was actually the observation that because it was less than a white tablecloth setting than there was no reason to expect anything proper.... like lower paid service people or those working in more casual places aren't, nor should be, capable of proper behavior. THAT is judgement. I am saying proper manners is NOT the domain of a certain sect.

So many assumptions, so little accuracy. And I am not even sure what to do with your assumptions about how I view a high school kid working at Starbucks.

You keep applying your values and your standards to others and deeming them failures for not meeting your ex post facto expectations as now stated in this thread. And this is all based on a situation you didn't even witness... Then, out of nowhere, you assumed that because I had not embraced your ettiquette worldview that I somehow am judging the employee for not living up to your standards of "proper behavior." Lol.

There are two discussions happening in this thread:

(1) What is wise ettiquette for employees of a business?
(2) What are people's personal preferences for ettiquette?

Correct me if I am wrong, but Pete and Urbanized have been making an argument about the first point (which I generally agree with their points). I also have no problem with you expressing what types of ettiquette and interactions you would like in your personal life. However, that's very different than you telling me and others what is proper. Nowhere in this thread have you seen me tell you or others how they should act and what they should believe.

Moreover, my preferences for casual interactions don't reflect some kind of moral degradation and lack of ambition as has been suggested in this thread. I am not a formal person by my nature, but I work my ass off and have incredibly high demands for those with whom I work. Like I said in the story, the story I shared was about a really nice employee who immediately helped me with a request with a smile on his face. He also asked, is there anything else I can help you with? afterward, but that wasn't relevant so I didn't share it. He was a good employee in my book. Should his employer require him to be more formal? Maybe. Either way, this is way too long of a post for this topic. Lol.

Gee thanks guys now I notice every time somebody says "no problem" instead of "thank you". It happens far more often than I originally thought when I first read this topic. It's like a really bad song that gets stuck in your head. Again thanks.

^^^^^^
No problem!

Gee thanks guys now I notice every time somebody says "no problem" instead of "thank you". It happens far more often than I originally thought when I first read this topic. It's like a really bad song that gets stuck in your head. Again thanks.

It could be worse. You could be the server who has trained herself well in responding with things like "my pleasure" to "thank you" and then when your friends and family say "thank you" for something everyone in the room knows you didn't want to do you say "my pleasure"

;)

I'm a part-time server at a restaurant in Midtown, Irma's Burger Shack to be exact. If you've visited Irma's before then you might notice the casual atmosphere the place provides; food is delivered in baskets, cups are plastic and to-go, silverware is plasticware unless requested, etc. I've actually noticed some coworkers may use informalities with tables. I think that's perfectly fine considering the laid-back atmosphere of Irma's, however I'm always aware of the diverse customer base that visits and as a result, I almost always stick to formal greetings and banter. I have used "no problem" before... under my own discretion, but almost always say, "you're welcome", "absolutely", or "my pleasure".

I think many of you would be surprised to find that the issue isn't so much the servers in this city, but instead perhaps, it is the management that needs to express professionalism. Great management would be aware of such issues and would make it a point to their staff to provide FORMAL customer service. However, from my experience, most restaurant management teams don't really mind how their servers converse with their tables. I have never witnessed an employee being taken aside by management to clarify the differences between informal and formal pleasantries. EVER. Maybe that is a result of less-experienced server and management talent within this city, but that doesn't mean they can't be taught.

Which actually presents an opportunity for those of you so peeved by informal banter... As most people are far too modest to correct their servers themselves, instead you should take your gripes up with management so that they are made aware of how communication negatively influenced your experience. They are then able to pass that lesson on to their employees, who are likely far more willing to listen to their management, than what they perceive as a "snooty" customer.

I was called "Boss" last night at BBW, I literally started cracking up, because this thread immediately popped into my head.... If he said it once he said it 20 times, he was a nice enough guy and it really didn't bother me , but it did however come across fake and almost too nice. I didn't complain or correct him and I even left a tip, see how easy that was.. Pick your battles, there's bigger problems in the world. Just IMO:D

If white table cloth service is saying you're welcome instead of no problem boss, I'm not sure anyone here will ever see eye to eye.

My point is. If I have to go grab my own silverware, the setting is likely so informal I wouldn't mind a "no problem".

I always expect a "you're welcome", but I am never bother by a "no problem" in a casual restaurant setting (or even self serve).

This topic is very popular. I found an article on the use of "no problem" and "you're welcome". The use of "you're welcome" only came about in the early 1900's, and some feel it is not necessary to be used by the server.

Here's the problem: 'No problem' is replacing 'You're welcome' | McClatchy DC (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article24522553.html)

^^^^^^^
That article, while fascinating, doesn't address the service industry so much as common conversation. You're the one making that connection when you say "...some feel it is not necessary to be used by the server..."

The point remains that if use of a phrase is offputting to a large segment of a place's clientele, it should be avoided.

I will also say that this is an entirely ****ed up premise:


Deborah Tannen, the author of "You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation," has a different bone to pick.

"You're supposed to say something that minimizes the pleasure when you do something for someone," said Tannen, a linguistics professor at Georgetown University in Washington.

So she's a "tiny bit offended," Tannen admitted, when someone responds "you're welcome" after doing something for her instead of "no problem," which she considers a clearer expression of minimized pleasure.
What does that even mean? You are supposed to be unhappy to help people? If that's the case maybe the correct response to "thank you" should be "I took no pleasure in it."

****ed. Up.

I will also say that this is an entirely ****ed up premise:


What does that even mean? You are supposed to be unhappy to help people? If that's the case maybe the correct response to "thank you" should be "I took no pleasure in it."

****ed. Up.

It reminds me of a Friends episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahDxg3hc5pM) where Joey says selfless good deeds don't exist because you only do them to feel good or make people like you, etc. Seems like a similar idea. If you help someone to make yourself feel good or other "selfish" reasons it lessens the selflessness of the action. Or something. I don't agree with it; I just thought of the Friend's episode.

Face it, most Americans are linguistically lazy, if not ignorant. It doesn't seem to be a priority.

Face it, most Americans are linguistically lazy, if not ignorant. It doesn't seem to be a priority.

nm

My mind is still blown that someone might be even a "tiny bit offended" that a human being might actually take pleasure from helping another person. The pridefulness and inherent selfishness demonstrated by this comment - plus a willingness to be offended by literally NOTHING - is difficult to fathom.

That said, if someone really wants to downplay their own effort, a more gracious response than "no problem" would be the English counterpart of the Spanish "de nada"; tell them "it was nothing".

All of which makes for a huge amount of effort just to avoid saying a simple, polite, "you're welcome".

I personally think we should tap into our German roots a bit here:

http://www.flexword.de/images/Blog_Images/Blog_Maj/english_vs_german.jpg

I think some on here confuse wishing for proper use of language with being "offended". Offending someone shouldn't be the only measure of acting and sounding proper, or educated. Am I personally offended by " no problem" or "ya know", or "ain't no big deal" or "nope", or any one of the other lazy phrases? I am not, unless it is delivered in a disrespectful way. But, its use does not present the user in a favorable way.....imho.

My wife doesn't read things on here but we just had a conversation about this thread. Her take: Society and the language a society uses evolve. What the "pro-socially acceptable" posters on this topic consider as acceptable would be considered too flippant and not acceptable to a person in colonial times. At that time a servers greeting would have been something like "Good day. My name is Gretchen Green, how may I be of service to you this evening sir (or madam). (Maybe with a curtsy). Now admit it, that would be weird today.

^^^^^^^
Yep. Eventually, you'll be greeted with a belch, a yawn or a fart, and will simply be pointed toward the buffet line with a middle finger and a grunt. And there will be people who swear they aren't offended by it, and some who come here to defend it as more authentic. Anything else would be "snoddy". Just call it "progress"!

The more I think about this the more I believe the issue may be regional than generational.

If you buy into the generational thing, it wouldn't explain why I almost never encountered these things in California.

Out there, you often get the aloof servers but almost never unprofessional ones. I really believe it's due to the strong competition for good serving jobs (both waiting and bartending), more sophisticated management and frankly, just way more competition between restaurants and bars. It's ruthless out there and that tends to raise standards across the board.

As I pointed out before, I think culturally people in OKC tend to lean towards friendliness over professionalism and I think that not only shows in the service, but in many of the opinions expressed in this thread.

The more I think about this the more I believe the issue may be regional than generational.

If you buy into the generational thing, it wouldn't explain why I almost never encountered these things in California.

Out there, you often get the aloof servers but almost never unprofessional ones. I really believe it's due to the strong competition for good serving jobs (both waiting and bartending), more sophisticated management and frankly, just way more competition between restaurants and bars. It's ruthless out there and that tends to raise standards across the board.

As I pointed out before, I think culturally people in OKC tend to lean towards friendliness over professionalism and I think that not only shows in the service, but in many of the opinions expressed in this thread.

It also points to the lack of importance Oklahomans tend to place on education, primarily, and anything cultural, secondarily. I am continually appalled at the lack of writing and speaking skills on reports, resumes, etc. which I receive in business. Even among college graduates, communication skills are lacking. It is far worse in Oklahoma than in offices I have had in Chicago, Dallas, and Los Angeles. Listen to our local radio talk show hosts and you will be appalled (that is, those who KNOW proper language skills will be). I agree that it doesn't seem to be generational. It seems to be a general anti-learning attitude here in Oklahoma. Here, it seems to be assumed you are a snob if you merely try to speak with good grammar skills.

^^^^^^^
Yep. Eventually, you'll be greeted with a belch, a yawn or a fart, and will simply be pointed toward the buffet line with a middle finger and a grunt. And there will be people who swear they aren't offended by it, and some who come here to defend it as more authentic. Anything else would be "snoddy". Just call it "progress"!

Oh good lord. Lol. Talk about misrepresenting someone else's argument.

It also points to the lack of importance Oklahomans tend to place on education, primarily, and anything cultural, secondarily. I am continually appalled at the lack of writing and speaking skills on reports, resumes, etc. which I receive in business. Even among college graduates, communication skills are lacking. It is far worse in Oklahoma than in offices I have had in Chicago, Dallas, and Los Angeles. Listen to our local radio talk show hosts and you will be appalled (that is, those who KNOW proper language skills will be). I agree that it doesn't seem to be generational. It seems to be a general anti-learning attitude here in Oklahoma. Here, it seems to be assumed you are a snob if you merely try to speak with good grammar skills.

Welp. I'm the main one arguing with you in this thread and I have a PhD, writing is a key part of how I make my living (and I love doing it), and I've dedicated my life to education. But, hey, whatever you say, boss.

I would not be offended as long as I didn't sense "attitude". I don't recall any issues with wait staff in restaurants, but the receptionist at a gym once rolled her eyes at me because she had stop gabbing in her phone to look me up in the system when I didn't bring my pass card. I immediately quit the place and registered a very strong complaint against her.

Oh good lord. Lol. Talk about misrepresenting someone else's argument.

You can't detect the facetiousness? Obviously it won't go that far, but it is the admittedly-extreme logical endpoint of some of what is being said. It's not just society "shifting" the idea of what is nice/polite and what is not; it is a de-emphasis on the entire idea of polite behavior. We become more desensitized to uncaring, disrespectful and even rude behavior, and politeness becomes something that not only is not expected; it is at times openly mocked.

It also points to the lack of importance Oklahomans tend to place on education, primarily, and anything cultural, secondarily. I am continually appalled at the lack of writing and speaking skills on reports, resumes, etc. which I receive in business. Even among college graduates, communication skills are lacking. It is far worse in Oklahoma than in offices I have had in Chicago, Dallas, and Los Angeles. Listen to our local radio talk show hosts and you will be appalled (that is, those who KNOW proper language skills will be). I agree that it doesn't seem to be generational. It seems to be a general anti-learning attitude here in Oklahoma. Here, it seems to be assumed you are a snob if you merely try to speak with good grammar skills.

All you gots ta do is read you some of that there Shakespeare to knows that language evolves over time. Fifty years from today folks will be saying the same thing about how folks communicates these days. The ultimate goal of language is communication. Like the french say, plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

Welp. I'm the main one arguing with you in this thread and I have a PhD, writing is a key part of how I make my living (and I love doing it), and I've dedicated my life to education. But, hey, whatever you say, boss.

Having a PHD says nothing about your literacy. I have a family member with a technical PHD who can't spell three words in a row correctly. He writes proposals also, but is in a field where it has been overlooked. I am not saying you are that way, but merely having a PHD in an unrelated field doesn't prove or disprove the argument.

I still stand by my statement...many Okies see no value in speaking well and cannot understand why others from elsewhere think we are a bunch of hicks living here.

All you gots ta do is read you some of that there Shakespeare to knows that language evolves over time. Fifty years from today folks will be saying the same thing about how folks communicates these days. The ultimate goal of language is communication. Like the french say, plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

This isn't about style, it's about speaking and writing with proper grammer, even in today's context. There were poorly spoken individuals in Shakespear's time and there are poorly spoken individuals today. If street English or farm English is what you want to use, more power to you. (Sorry, didn't mean to offend farmers...I actually know some very well spoken farmers).

This isn't about style, it's about speaking and writing with proper grammer, even in today's context. There were poorly spoken individuals in Shakespear's time and there are poorly spoken individuals today. If street English or farm English is what you want to use, more power to you. (Sorry, didn't mean to offend farmers...I actually know some very well spoken farmers).Pot, meet kettle!

Normally I don't bother to point out misspellings; I suffer from fat-finger syndrome all to frequently my own self. However, given the subject of this thread I'm making an exception.

When I came back after a couple of years spent in a suburb of L.A. I did notice the strong regional accent of all the broadcast announcers, once we passed the state line. However, today they all seem to have "network standard" voices. As for spelling and grammar, I blame the (lack of) educational standards nationwide for that....

Pot, meet kettle!

Normally I don't bother to point out misspellings; I suffer from fat-finger syndrome all to frequently my own self. However, given the subject of this thread I'm making an exception.

When I came back after a couple of years spent in a suburb of L.A. I did notice the strong regional accent of all the broadcast announcers, once we passed the state line. However, today they all seem to have "network standard" voices. As for spelling and grammar, I blame the (lack of) educational standards nationwide for that....
Touché Lol

Last night at Mickey Mantle's bar, I was first called 'sir' by a pretty professional bartender then ultimately it was 'my friend'.

Better than 'ace' or 'chief' but I still didn't like it.


BTW, I now know why I had never been in that place... They allow smoking and fully half the people that place were puffing away. I only realized they allowed it after I had already met a friend there and were deep into a long conversation, so both of us were more or less stuck and it occurred to me it was the first time I had been around smoke in years and it was also the first time I had actually *seen* a bunch of people smoking in an equally long time.

I'll save my non-smoking rant for another time and place but it's simply stunning to me in this era that in a really nice place like Mickey's that a good number of people are in their smoking their heads off. And I suspect most visitors -- and there are plenty due to the surrounding hotels and name recognition of the restaurant -- would be equally shocked because there are precious few cities in the Western world where this still goes on.

It was the first time I realized how badly this reflects on OKC -- and believe me, to most outsiders, it does.

Last night at Mickey Mantle's bar, I was first called 'sir' by a pretty professional bartender then ultimately it was 'my friend'.

Better than 'ace' or 'chief' but I still didn't like it.


BTW, I now know why I had never been in that place... They allow smoking and fully half the people that place were puffing away. I only realized they allowed it after I had already met a friend there and were deep into a long conversation, so both of us were more or less stuck and it occurred to me it was the first time I had been around smoke in years and it was also the first time I had actually *seen* a bunch of people smoking in an equally long time.

I'll save my non-smoking rant for another time and place but it's simply stunning to me in this era that in a really nice place like Mickey's that a good number of people are in their smoking their heads off. And I suspect most visitors -- and there are plenty due to the surrounding hotels and name recognition of the restaurant -- would be equally shocked because there are precious few cities in the Western world where this still goes on.

It was the first time I realized how badly this reflects on OKC -- and believe me, to most outsiders, it does.

I have heard that they will be going non smoking but haven't confirmed it. Has anyone else heard this?