Greenwell has quietly become my favorite council member and this only adds to that. I wish he was councilman of my district.

^

Agree. He's under-appreciated.

I wish we could all agree that life, values, everything was different in 1492 than it is in 2015. The Social Left turning this into an issue 500 years later is the kind of PC absurdity that so many people are sick of. Columbus was no psychopath. The slave trade was all over the known world at the time. To even debate in 2015 the morals, ideas, and cultures in 1492 seems crazy to me. The "indigenous peoples" had a violent and sadistic culture as well. So, when will the movement start to rid us of all of that history? This has to stop.

Many Founding Fathers, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin owned slaves.

I wish we could all agree that life, values, everything was different in 1492 than it is in 2015. The Social Left turning this into an issue 500 years later is the kind of PC absurdity that so many people are sick of. Columbus was no psychopath. The slave trade was all over the known world at the time. To even debate in 2015 the morals, ideas, and cultures in 1492 seems crazy to me. The "indigenous peoples" had a violent and sadistic culture as well. So, when will the movement start to rid us of all of that history? This has to stop.

Almost everything you typed is historically incorrect, but hey just throw out liberal PC police and you don't have to make an intelligent argument. The anti-intellectuialism in this country is far more problematic than the PC police problem. People lack information, aren't interested in learning, and use labels like liberal and PC police to avoid doing so.

Many Founding Fathers, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin owned slaves.

Exactly. Remember watching the Lenin statues tumbling in the old Soviet Union? That's what's happening here. Those three names you mentioned above have targets on their long dead (and honorable) backs. But we can't honor such people! Their statues are next on the list. And some probably think I'm kidding. The scrubbing of history to appease the social left is in full swing.

Many Founding Fathers, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin owned slaves.

Of course, and that's a problematic part of our history. But there is absolutely no comparing the genocidal brutality of Columbus to the owning of slaves by Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin. It's important to note that even in his historical time, Benjamin Franklin realized slavery was immoral, freed his two slaves, and fought with Quakers to abolish it at the Constitutional Convention. Washington and Jefferson admitted slavery was immoral, but were only willing to part with slaves after their own lives. But there is no doubt that white supremacy was accepted in the day and written into the Constitution in the 3/5th Compromise (not undone until the Reconstruction Amendments that finally made equality a legal aim in the U.S.).

An important aspect of historical thinking is understanding values, morals, and issues in their proper time period. By any historical time period, Columbus was exceptional for his brutality and greed. Much of Columbus' acceptance comes from mythical tales told about him that were invented to create an American origin story. Unfortunately, if you just read Bartolome de las Casas' History of the Indies (which was written in Columbus' Day by someone who was there - but this history was whitewashed by American nationalists) you will find that he found what Columbus did to be so inhumane that it was utterly unthinkable. It's hard to understand this point unless you have actually read the history, but the way that Columbus and his men would test their swords by cutting of the ears of Arawak people (who were a very peaceable and generous people in Columbus' accounts), cut off the arms of Arawak people who could not provide certain amounts of gold, torture and kill the Arawaks, and, in the end, complete a full genocide of the Arawak peoples, is almost unprecedented historically. Basil Davidson credits Columbus with the starting of the Atlantic Slave Trade. Columbus was a product of his time in some ways, but there are few men in history with such blood on their hands.

Exactly. Remember watching the Lenin statues tumbling in the old Soviet Union? That's what's happening here. Those three names you mentioned above have targets on their long dead (and honorable) backs. But we can't honor such people! Their statues are next on the list. And some probably think I'm kidding. The scrubbing of history to appease the social left is in full swing.

Again, you just go back to your anti-intellectualism rant without any facts pertinent to the situation. You realize that "scrubbing of history" is how Columbus became a hero. The historical facts -- written largely from Barolome de las Casas' first hand accounts along with others -- were scrubbed for inaccurate and incomplete historical myths. If you believe in a fuller and accurate history then you should be in favor of the full history of Columbus being told. And he will and should be recognized for (a) sailing to the Americas and creating a lasting connections between the continents, (b) inciting Eurpoean exploration and imperialsm, (c) beginning the Atlantic Slave Trade, and (d) starting and leading a complete genocide of the Arawak peoples. I am not trying to diminish Columbus' historical significance and impact, but I don't know how anyone could call him a hero while actually knowing what he did to other human beings.

Again, you just go back to your anti-intellectualism rant without any facts pertinent to the situation.

Excuse me? Anti-intellectual? I am solidly on the left when it comes to economics. I am solidly thoughtful and refuse to walk in lockstep on the social issues of the radical left. In other words, I think for myself. That comes from education and from an ability to step back and not accept my politics, values, etc. as part of some "package." Where do you differ from the current day progressive movement? Not accepting the complete takeover of traditional progressive thought by the identity warriors does not an "anti-intellectual" make. With respect, my friend.

Excuse me? Anti-intellectual? I am solidly on the left when it comes to economics. I am solidly thoughtful and refuse to walk in lockstep on the social issues of the radical left. In other words, I think for myself. That comes from education and from an ability to step back and not accept my politics, values, etc. as part of some "package." Where do you differ from the current day progressive movement? Not accepting the complete takeover of traditional progressive thought by the identity warriors does not an "anti-intellectual" make. With respect, my friend.

I'm not referring to your overall political leanings, but your specific posts in this thread. Your posts are historically inaccurate and instead of seeking out more information you respond with some political talking points about liberal PC Police. Avoiding meaningful discussion for narrative is anti-intellectualism. I'm sorry if my posts came across as personal. I just do not see any indication that you know much about Columbus, yet you still characterized everyone in favor making changes as some stereotypical political sheep.

I am not sure if you've lumped me in with some political movement, but I find it rather irrelevant. I have not brought up current day politics, but specific historical and cultural issues. I believe Columbus Day should be replaced not because it is a popular position of some party or group, but because of the facts of the case. I've been pushing for this for well over a decade -- since I was able to study the history surrounding Columbus.

Excuse me? Anti-intellectual? I am solidly on the left when it comes to economics. I am solidly thoughtful and refuse to walk in lockstep on the social issues of the radical left. In other words, I think for myself. That comes from education and from an ability to step back and not accept my politics, values, etc. as part of some "package." Where do you differ from the current day progressive movement? Not accepting the complete takeover of traditional progressive thought by the identity warriors does not an "anti-intellectual" make. With respect, my friend.

Its easy to dismiss an opposing viewpoint as someone "not thinking for themselves." Any reasonable person would clearly not hold those thoughts, so they must therefore be under the sway of some malevolent force with an ulterior motive. You, on the other hand, form your opinions on your very own without any biases or input from other sources, so your opinion must clearly be the only reasonable option.

Never understood why Christopher Columbus is celebrated. He never discovered America (he got as close as Cuba and Haiti), he never proved the earth was round (most academics back to Roman times had figured that out), and he failed at his job to the point where he was fired by the Spanish crown. And yeah, there's the whole enslaving 50K Indians and cutting their hands off if they didn't find gold and the like. So why exactly does he have a holiday?

History isn't pretty, and I don't like the idea of ignoring some of the less savory parts. But just because you shouldn't ignore it doesn't mean you have to honor it or respect it. Has nothing to do with political correctness. Personally, I feel pretty duped that I learned such fairy tales with no regard for the truth when I was younger.

Of course, and that's a problematic part of our history. But there is absolutely no comparing the genocidal brutality of Columbus to the owning of slaves by Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin. It's important to note that even in his historical time, Benjamin Franklin realized slavery was immoral, freed his two slaves, and fought with Quakers to abolish it at the Constitutional Convention. Washington and Jefferson admitted slavery was immoral, but were only willing to part with slaves after their own lives. But there is no doubt that white supremacy was accepted in the day and written into the Constitution in the 3/5th Compromise (not undone until the Reconstruction Amendments that finally made equality a legal aim in the U.S.).

An important aspect of historical thinking is understanding values, morals, and issues in their proper time period. By any historical time period, Columbus was exceptional for his brutality and greed. Much of Columbus' acceptance comes from mythical tales told about him that were invented to create an American origin story. Unfortunately, if you just read Bartolome de las Casas' History of the Indies (which was written in Columbus' Day by someone who was there - but this history was whitewashed by American nationalists) you will find that he found what Columbus did to be so inhumane that it was utterly unthinkable. It's hard to understand this point unless you have actually read the history, but the way that Columbus and his men would test their swords by cutting of the ears of Arawak people (who were a very peaceable and generous people in Columbus' accounts), cut off the arms of Arawak people who could not provide certain amounts of gold, torture and kill the Arawaks, and, in the end, complete a full genocide of the Arawak peoples, is almost unprecedented historically. Basil Davidson credits Columbus with the starting of the Atlantic Slave Trade. Columbus was a product of his time in some ways, but there are few men in history with such blood on their hands.

Right but there were almost 300 years between the Founding Fathers and Columbus.

And I'll repeat your point here: "An important aspect of historical thinking is understanding values, morals, and issues in their proper time period."

BTW, I'm not at all arguing against renaming Columbus Day or the fact he in many ways was a bad guy.

But once you start pulling at this thread, all of American history will start to unravel pretty fast and the same critical eye and realistic view of history should be applied uniformly.

Never understood why Christopher Columbus is celebrated....

It was a Catholic thing. Seriously. Catholics (and Italians) were severely discriminated against even well into the 20th century and pushed Columbus as a Catholic (and Italian) hero.

Here's a pretty fair documentation of how the holiday came about, without directly addressing the controversial history surrounding the man himself: The Origins and Traditions of Columbus Day (http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/history/the-origins-and-traditions-of-columbus-day.html)

BTW, I'm not at all arguing against renaming Columbus Day or the fact he in many ways was a bad guy.

But once you start pulling at this thread, all of American history will start to unravel pretty fast and the same critical eye and realistic view of history should be applied uniformly.

I think I laid out pretty clearly that Columbus is NOT simply representative of his time.

The key is being able to appreciate and wrestle with the paradoxical nature of American history. The U.S. was one of the most and least free nations in the world when founded. We have been on a constant journey to live up to our own equality ideals set forth in the Declaration, ignored by the Constitution, brought back to life with the Reconstruction amendments, and struggled with to this day. History is complicated. In fact, I'd argue that the entire nature of historical inquiry is about the continual process of unraveling and reweaving our history with our present lives.

I am deeply embarrassed by the votes of a couple of people I greatly respect. This should have passed; there would have been absolutely no negative consequences from such a vote. It is a cold backhand of indifference. This is the kind of symbolic gesture that means a great deal to some people. And it's the kind of symbolism that communicates that OKC is not a very inclusive, tolerant place. Bad vote.

I'm curious as to why it had to fall on colombus day? It would have passed without a doubt if they had just chosen a different day.

The point was to replace Columbus Day. Because of the whole genocide of indigenous people deal.

There is no doubt Colombo was a bad person that did bad things, but as a society the second we begin to judge the past by morales of today we have to do it for everyone. I am more than for an Indigenous peoples day but there is no doubt there are many things the native americans did they are considered wrong in todays world. So we replace one evil with another? Colombo shouldn't be remembered for the horrors he inflicted but it is proper to remember him for sailing to the America's and starting what would be the colonization of this side of the world. But that's just my opinion, I wouldn't have been upset if they had voted in favor but it seems to have been blown up into a far bigger deal than it is.

The point was to replace Columbus Day. Because of the whole genocide of indigenous people deal.

Except that is a flawed premise. Okc doesn't have Columbus Day. So it would have been creating new day.

If the council voted no for the second Monday in November to be forever called Vietnam refugee day in Okc. Would that mean that are "not inclusive" Of course not.

This is people playing bad politics and political correctness to make something out of nothing

It seems that the Italian American lobby has more influence with the mayor and his allies than the Native American lobby does. Fuhgedaboutit.

Except that is a flawed premise. Okc doesn't have Columbus Day. So it would have been creating new day.

If the council voted no for the second Monday in November to be forever called Vietnam refugee day in Okc. Would that mean that are "not inclusive" Of course not.

This is people playing bad politics and political correctness to make something out of nothing

Columbus Day still occurs in OKC as last time I checked the banks were closed and the mail was not delivered. It is just that the local government does not observe it. So what is your issue against the local government recognizing a day for native peoples on this date?

Columbus Day still occurs in OKC as last time I checked the banks were closed and the mail was not delivered. It is just that the local government does not observe it. So what is your issue against the local government recognizing a day for native peoples on this date?

The postal system is federal. That doesn't change that OKC and OK in general do not recognize Columbus Day as a holiday. Boulder's point was that the argument isn't really "Let's change a day about Columbus to being a day about Native Americans," but instead "Let's create a day that recognizes Native Americans." Changing the name of a holiday and creating a holiday are two separate things.

The reason it had to fall on Columbus day is what I was addressing. I'm not sure why this is hard to figure out.

There is no doubt Colombo was a bad person that did bad things, but as a society the second we begin to judge the past by morales of today we have to do it for everyone. I am more than for an Indigenous peoples day but there is no doubt there are many things the native americans did they are considered wrong in todays world. So we replace one evil with another? Colombo shouldn't be remembered for the horrors he inflicted but it is proper to remember him for sailing to the America's and starting what would be the colonization of this side of the world. But that's just my opinion, I wouldn't have been upset if they had voted in favor but it seems to have been blown up into a far bigger deal than it is.

People keep bringing up this point, but I don't think it has any merit. Columbus was considered terrible in his own day. And he is also tied not only with individual brutal acts, but starting systemic acts like the Atlantic Slave Trade. There are tons of people of Columbus' Day who did none of the things he did and had none of the negative influence that he did. The reason there is such a protest against Columbus is because his acts were so heinous in any time period. If you don't believe me then read Barolome de las Casas' History of the Indies where he writes about the incredible inhumanity of Columbus' actions... and he was of there... in Columbus' Day.... applying his fifteenth century morals.

Except that is a flawed premise. Okc doesn't have Columbus Day. So it would have been creating new day.

If the council voted no for the second Monday in November to be forever called Vietnam refugee day in Okc. Would that mean that are "not inclusive" Of course not.

This is people playing bad politics and political correctness to make something out of nothing

If this state is going to brand itself Native America then at least honor the wishes of indigenous peoples when it comes to a man who believed that slavery, rape, mutilation, and genocide were acceptable towards Native peoples. Our country mythologized Columbus. Setting the record straight and being historically accurate is not PC.

The postal system is federal. That doesn't change that OKC and OK in general do not recognize Columbus Day as a holiday. Boulder's point was that the argument isn't really "Let's change a day about Columbus to being a day about Native Americans," but instead "Let's create a day that recognizes Native Americans." Changing the name of a holiday and creating a holiday are two separate things.
Yes the postal system is federal, but mail is still not delivered locally. What are the ramifications to the OKC government to declare Oct. 12 Native Peoples Day? There are entities in Oklahoma that observe Columbus Day and you only need to travel as far as the Cleveland County Courthouse in Norman to find one. OKC could be a leader here and instead leaves Anadarko to assume this role.

The reason it had to fall on Columbus day is what I was addressing. I'm not sure why this is hard to figure out.

The reason being is that Columbus should not be honored with a day, anymore than Jackson should be honored on currency. Oh, wait a minute....

Yes the postal system is federal, but mail is still not delivered locally. What are the ramifications to the OKC government to declare Oct. 12 Native Peoples Day? There are entities in Oklahoma that observe Columbus Day and you only need to travel as far as the Cleveland County Courthouse in Norman to find one. OKC could be a leader here and instead leaves Anadarko to assume this role.

1) Mail is not delivered locally because it is entirely a federal system. The federal government runs the mail system and determines whether the mail runs. It has nothing to do with OKC or OK in general.

2) The Cleveland County Courthouse has nothing to do with OKC, which is the entity being discussed.

3) I don't really have a particular dog in the argument of Indigenous People's Day vs. Columbus Day or whether the city council acted correctly or not.. However, I recognize that there is a difference in renaming an currently recognized holiday and creating a new holiday as stated in BoulderSooner's post. I felt that you, in the post I initially replied to, either misunderstood Boulder's post, or were being intellectually dishonest in your response to his post. Considering your further comments regarding federal government vs. local government, I'm tending to lean towards the notion that you were and still are being intellectual dishonest regarding this topic in the interest of simplifying this discussion to being a strictly two sided "good guys vs. bad guys" in which everyone who doesn't strictly agree with you is a "bad guy." Please feel free to correct if I am incorrect in this assessment.

1) Mail is not delivered locally because it is entirely a federal system. The federal government runs the mail system and determines whether the mail runs. It has nothing to do with OKC or OK in general.

2) The Cleveland County Courthouse has nothing to do with OKC, which is the entity being discussed.

3) I don't really have a particular dog in the argument of Indigenous People's Day vs. Columbus Day or whether the city council acted correctly or not.. However, I recognize that there is a difference in renaming an currently recognized holiday and creating a new holiday as stated in BoulderSooner's post. I felt that you, in the post I initially replied to, either misunderstood Boulder's post, or were being intellectually dishonest in your response to his post. Considering your further comments regarding federal government vs. local government, I'm tending to lean towards the notion that you were and still are being intellectual dishonest regarding this topic in the interest of simplifying this discussion to being a strictly two sided "good guys vs. bad guys" in which everyone who doesn't strictly agree with you is a "bad guy." Please feel free to correct if I am incorrect in this assessment.

Ok, I guess I can say I do not understand the difference between renaming a currently recognized holiday and creating a new one. What are the differences? So if the holiday is not recognized by OKC does that mean we are creating a new one? Or is the fact that it is recognized elsewhere mean we are renaming one? Not being dishonest here. As to your second point , I was responding to your statement that Oklahoma in general does not recognize CD, but in fact many courthouses are closed. My point was that OKC being the capital city of OK would be sending a message across the state of why Columbus Day should not be observed anywhere in the state.

It seems that the Italian American lobby has more influence with the mayor and his allies than the Native American lobby does. Fuhgedaboutit.

They made them an offer they couldn't refuse.

Ok, I guess I can say I do not understand the difference between renaming a currently recognized holiday and creating a new one. What are the differences? So if the holiday is not recognized by OKC does that mean we are creating a new one? Or is the fact that it is recognized elsewhere mean we are renaming one? Not being dishonest here. As to your second point , I was responding to your statement that Oklahoma in general does not recognize CD, but in fact many courthouses are closed. My point was that OKC being the capital city of OK would be sending a message across the state of why Columbus Day should not be observed anywhere in the state.

So, first, there are multiple different governments operating in Oklahoma. I specifically mentioned the Oklahoma state government and the discussion is generally about the Oklahoma City government. Neither entity recognizes Columbus Day as a holiday. There are still a myriad number of other entities that may or may not recognize Columbus Day locally. Cleveland County may recognize Columbus Day, I don't know, but it has no basis on any other entity (i.e. the Cleveland County Courthouse has no bearing on whether Oklahoma or Oklahoma City recognize Columbus Day). Additionally, the federal government does recognize Columbus Day and those aspects of the federal government, such as the United States Postal Service, will be closed regardless of their location.

So, for the Oklahoma City Council to recognize October 12th as Indigenous People's Day, it would, for the purposes of Oklahoma City specifically, be creating a new holiday. There would then have to be, I presume, discussions over what exactly it would be mean for 10/12 to be this holiday. Do they close government offices for an additional day a year? Do they get rid of some other holiday to make room? Should there be come city sponsored celebration, or is it just a day off?

An additional aspect to consider is this: In a lot of the discussions I've seen on this topic, the general idea seems to be how tragic it is that Columbus is recognized as a hero when he was, apparently, a monster. Celebrating the people he victimized is offered as an alternative. Since OKC doesn't celebrate Columbus as a hero (at least, not with a holiday), does it really say the same thing to add a holiday for Indigenous People as if they were replacing Columbus Day with it?

Again, I don't have a personal stake in either "side" here, but I also don't want it to be simplified into a "us vs. them" type of conversation as to many internet discussions, including on this fine website, tend to be.

In reading your post I see how we got to talking past each other. From all I have read, the resolution in question called for Oct. 12 to be an observance. I did not read anything about wanting to make it an official holiday, paid or otherwise. in fact OU observed Oct. 12 this way and school was in session. I believe OKC could have similarily "observed" this day without making it an official holiday. While I do not know positive, I would be willing to bet that the Council passes observances of days such as April 19, or National Prayer Day. As you, I have no dog in this fight, but the actions of the council do not put the city in a good light. I have not seen or heard any member who voted "no" defend their vote.

Columbus Day still occurs in OKC as last time I checked the banks were closed and the mail was not delivered. It is just that the local government does not observe it. So what is your issue against the local government recognizing a day for native peoples on this date?

While many banks do follow federal holidays, they are not required to do so, so some banks do opt to stay open on Columbus Day.

2015 has been a pretty bummer year in OKC, when you consider the previous several. Oil bust, layoffs, demolition after demolition of historic structures, disappointing delays and project scope reductions. Now, the City Council has veered into a direction that makes me uncomfortable. Hopefully this year is just a bump in the road and 2016 is brighter and more encouraging.

We desperately need a new generation of leadership to take over our city government.

I try not to get lost too much in these curious little sideshows. Regarding Columbus, maybe Columbus the man isn't what we're really celebrating, but rather we are celebrating the Columbus of classical United States mythology. While Europeans, no doubt, visited North America, Columbus was the guy that first established a permanent foothold. Whether you retroactively support the genocide and destruction which followed, which in the grand scheme of things is not "horrible" as many people seem to want to claim. This is just what happens when a strong culture encounters a weak one--the weaker is exploited. Sometimes that involves genocide, sometimes that involves enslavement, whatever, that's what happens.

China would not be the China it is today had the Khans not made it bleed. Europe would probably never have risen above tribalism and barbarism had the Romans not first laid the groundwork for modern Western civilization. Japan would not be the peaceful nation it is today had the United States not dropped a couple of a-bombs on civilian targets. The United States and just about every, maybe every country in the Americas, North and South, has been responsible for a great deal of bloodshed while colonizing and westernizing the Americas. I don't look back on that and see it as horrible or even regrettable. Native peoples slaughtered other native peoples--some even employed barbaric human sacrifice as part of their religions. It's just what happened.

I don't get the shame and I refuse to feel it for things which were well out of my control. I mean it's nice to be nice, but this "Indigenous Peoples Day" idea to supplant Columbus Day is nothing more than history-shaming people of European descent for events well outside of their control. I'm glad our City Council didn't involve themselves in that mess.

This is just what happens when a strong culture encounters a weak one--the weaker is exploited. Sometimes that involves genocide, sometimes that involves enslavement, whatever, that's what happens.

Wow.

Wow.

Am I wrong?

Should we protest the Little Caesar's logo because the Romans were genocidal slave owners? There is a new flavor of PC American Exceptionalism out there--and that is to imagine that we are special in that we are the only society which ever had a few warts in its past. Quite a few holidays around the world celebrate events which when a modern lens is applied aren't prime examples of gentility. Just off the top of my head, there's Bastille Day, which is the celebration of what ended up being a violent slaughter of any of the wealthy and educated Frenchmen, women and children not smart enough to flee the country ahead of the Revolution.

And that's not really a strong vs. weak culture, but strong vs. weak ideas. Republicanism vs. Ancient hereditary total monarchy=slaughter. The same thing happened in Russia, which as far as I know, celebrated the fall of the Russian monarchy to the strong Marxist ideas of the Bolsheviks. Stuff happens, and if you are going to whine about every little thing, you just lack historical perspective.

Ha what a comparison. Little Caesar's to a Federal Holiday.

That's not the only comparison I gave you, AP. Bastille Day in France, Unity Day in Russia..

You don't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs.

ETA:

This topic got me thinking as to how other countries treat similar figures who though on the whole being partially responsible for general good times in the dominant culture, caused bloodshed elsewhere. Mongolia and the Khans comes to mind as perhaps the singular best example of a Columbus Day analog.



http://www.economist.com/node/8401179

Whether you retroactively support the genocide and destruction which followed, which in the grand scheme of things is not "horrible" as many people seem to want to claim. This is just what happens when a strong culture encounters a weak one--the weaker is exploited. Sometimes that involves genocide, sometimes that involves enslavement, whatever, that's what happens.

Haunting and disturbing post.

To clarify, unless you are Columbus, no one has asked you to feel shame. You made that up yourself.

Am I wrong?

Yes. Your argument literally can be used to justify the Holocaust. That's the argument you're making. You're saying that killing people is cool as long as someone else's vision of "progress" is fulfilled. And, oh yeah, is genocide really that bad? Would you feel this way if someone had this attitude towards you and your family? Empathy - give it a try.

The Holocaust isn't even close to the largest extermination of humanity in history. I'm saying killing people is part of history and that we shouldn't try to whitewash history. But by the same token, we don't have to imagine that it is something exceptional when it really isn't. I don't really have a need to feel empathic with people who have been dead a few hundred years. Bad things happen to good people.

--and Godwin's Law, apparently. Straight to Hitler comparisons? Not even a little romance?

For more clarity, am I saying the Holocaust was justified? Nope. But it did happen and an argument could probably be made that the actual holocaust was a factor in advancing Europe to the point it is at today. The same can be said for what Mao did in China and what Stalin was responsible for in the USSR.

Celebrating the European colonization of the Americas by way of Columbus day is an acknowledgment of our history on this continent and how we got here. And the conquering of land from native peoples, slavery, etc., have all been at least partially responsible for helping the United States as a country advance to the point it now finds itself.

The Holocaust isn't even close to the largest extermination of humanity in history. I'm saying killing people is part of history and that we shouldn't try to whitewash history. But by the same token, we don't have to imagine that it is something exceptional when it really isn't. I don't really have a need to feel empathic with people who have been dead a few hundred years. Bad things happen to good people.

--and Godwin's Law, apparently. Straight to Hitler comparisons? Not even a little romance?

Who has suggested that we whitewash history? You are making arguments to the wind. I have made the exact opposite argument throughout this thread.

You seem angry.

And you seem to think the holocaust was like...the worst thing ever....

--cute.

I'm down for having an indiginous peoples day.. whatever.. Columbus Day, for obvious reasons, should remain on the calendar. We don't need to redefine our culture to satisfy the outrage warriors.