I see little doubt this will be approved given the value of the Festival of the Arts to downtown OKC and the reason why they are moving.

Festival of the Arts officials seek $1.5 million for relocation expenses in Oklahoma City | News OK (http://newsok.com/festival-of-the-arts-officials-seek-1.5-million-for-relocation-expenses-in-oklahoma-city/article/5445454)

I see little doubt this will be approved given the value of the Festival of the Arts to downtown OKC and the reason why they are moving.

Festival of the Arts officials seek $1.5 million for relocation expenses in Oklahoma City | News OK (http://newsok.com/festival-of-the-arts-officials-seek-1.5-million-for-relocation-expenses-in-oklahoma-city/article/5445454)


So this means the FESTIVAL will stay at Civic Center for the next ten years, or; do they plan on moving to Central Park in the next five years? If the latter, a bit wasteful IMO.

Some points:


This is further indication the convention hotel will be going on the south Clayco parcel since absolutely nothing is happening with Clayco on that spot and now we are rushing to move the Arts Festival and various tenants from that area.
TIF is supposed to be for redevelopment of blighted areas. How does this use even remotely qualify??
Further evidence that TIF in OKC is really nothing more than a giant slush fund of tax dollars for the rich and powerful.
This amounts to yet another public subsidy for the convention center project.
As noted in the TIF Districts thread, the City now wants to create another 7 or 8 districts to redirect hundreds more millions from schools and other public services and be administered in the same arbitrary fashion.

This request is total proof the City has lost complete control of the TIF process - at least as it was sold to the people.

I run events here in the city. I don't understand this cost for relocation, unless the city is charging 1.5 million for use of the space around the civic center. At which point it means they're paying themselves. It's not like the arts fest has a physical infrastructure they have to build.

This seems to read as they're asking for the money because they can.

From the article:


Dolese estimated more than $550,000 is needed for electrical, water, mechanical and plumbing upgrades to the Civic Center park, as well as for signage, a communication network, tents, furniture and steel poles to support electric lines.

That's only $550K of the $1.5 million request and this is a big reach for TIF dollars to begin with by why are taxpayers paying for tents, signage and furniture??

At least some of the other infrastructure could be used for more events, however it seems that's exactly what the Myriad Gardens is for.

And, it seems to me, the idea of moving the festival completely away from the MBG on a long-term basis doesn't make much sense. The original Clayco plans (which I realize now are out the window) showed them preserving the California easement for events. So, now we are abandoning that idea completely or is this just $1.5 million for a temporary shift?

So, now we are abandoning that idea completely or is this just $1.5 million for a temporary shift?

I think this is the most concerning part for me....

I'd be in full support of building some sort of multi use long term downtown festival area with all the various infrastructure that could be used year round for special street festival events. This doesn't seem to be the case.

^

But even then, do we need to be doing that at Centennial Park when we already have the Myriad Gardens and are getting ready to build Central Park?

Why not delay the move one year and invest in Central Park instead?

With the demolition of the stage center, is there still space to hold it there?

The demolition of Stage Center shouldn't affect the Arts Festival.

The only thing they did there was place some sculptures.

The festival Plaza is still completely in tact and that is where they have a ton of electric, plumbing and everything else they need.

This is all about clearing this area out so they can move forward with the convention center hotel on that site, and by doing it now disassociates the public funds from that project.

Ah. I didn't know if there was a debris issue or anything. That makes sense.

You can see from this aerial that the plaza directly south of the old stage center hasn't been touched:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/artsfestival090915.jpg

Even if moving to Bicentennial Park for a year or two, having just been to Wiggle Out Loud there, I don't see what infrastructure was missing from there to prevent being able to pull off the arts fest.

Some points:


This is further indication the convention hotel will be going on the south Clayco parcel since absolutely nothing is happening with Clayco on that spot and now we are rushing to move the Arts Festival and various tenants from that area.
TIF is supposed to be for redevelopment of blighted areas. How does this use even remotely qualify??
Further evidence that TIF in OKC is really nothing more than a giant slush fund of tax dollars for the rich and powerful.
This amounts to yet another public subsidy for the convention center project.
As noted in the TIF Districts thread, the City now wants to create another 7 or 8 districts to redirect hundreds more millions from schools and other public services and be administered in the same arbitrary fashion.


Further, TIF money is granted with the hope and idea that it will get repaid in time with higher ad valorem taxes. But how would this money for moving be paid back? There is no permanent property improvements that would increase ad valorem income for the city. On the surface, this appears to be nothing but a free handout to well connected organizations and people.

^

Just to be clear, TIF money is not repaid by the recipients. It's merely a grant/gift.

However, one of the main ideas behind such grants is to spur further development which contributes to a high tax base and thus generates more property taxes. Again, very difficult to see how shifting this event from one place to another even comes close to fulfilling that requirement.

The newsok.com article about this....

"NewsOK.com has disabled the comments for this article."

hrm....

The eligibility for this TIF expenditure has nothing to do with the use of Bicentennial Park for the Festival. Pete's probably right in that it has to do with relocation due to whatever is going to get built on the Clayco site--whether that be some Clayco development or convention center-related thing. Relocation expenses have been eligible project costs for TIF money since the legislation enacting TIF to begin with was first adopted. It's not all public improvements or development finance assistance. (It's also not all about remedying blight, but I'll save that argument.)

From the applicable definition in the Local Development Act (Oklahoma Statutes, Title 62, Section 853):

14. "Project costs" means the expenditures made or estimated to be made and monetary obligations incurred or estimated to be incurred which are listed in the project plan as costs of and incidental to planning, approval and implementation of the project plan. Any income, special assessments, or other revenues received, or reasonably expected to be received, by the city, town or county in connection with the implementation of the project plan may be used to pay project costs. Project costs include, but are not limited to:

. . .

m. relocation costs to the extent that a governing body determines that relocation costs shall be paid or are required to be paid by federal or state law

On on semi-related note, why doesn't the City post notices/agendas for the various TIF review committees on its website page for "Meeting Agendas" like it does for every other public body or trust under it's general direction? Those meetings are public meetings and subject to the Open Meeting Act...

When I mentioned blight I was referring to the original intent of TIF, not the bastardized version it has become, especially in OKC.

I've never claimed any of this stuff is technically illegal, just very, very far from the spirit and intent of TIF and a very questionable use of tax dollars that would otherwise go to fund schools (primarily).

So what you're saying, is that if the city is trying to do or draw new development to site "a", and doing so would require an organization to relocate to site "b", even though the organization's move is not benefiting development at site "a", they are eligible for tif funds for the relocation?

Seems as though the electrical would already be at Bicentennial Park, after all project 180 has an electrical box at just about every tree by the streets. Wonder if some of the TIF money would be used for the arts council new office?

:missing:

There are several tenants being moved from the south Clayco site to the Arts District parking garage.

There is considerable expense around that, not the least of which is build-out of the new space.

This is another hidden cost of the convention center project, as is the value of the land that was to be sold to Clayco or another developer but will now almost certainly be given away for the convention hotel development.

Oh yeah... didn't Opubco get TIF for moving back downtown?

Oh yeah... didn't Opubco get TIF for moving back downtown?

Yes, also $1.5 million.

Maybe that's some kind of minimum increment for that type of activity...

Chicago is known as the "City with big shoulders", OKC is going to be known as "The City that doesn't say no(to those with connections)"

Chicago is known as the "City with big shoulders", OKC is going to be known as "The City that doesn't say no(to those with connections)"

OKC - the City with big knees.

What exactly is being "relocated" anyhow? It is just some tents. If the park needs additional water and electric - why is it the responsibility of FofA to provide it and not the City? After all, the park belongs to the City. I also had to LOL about comments being disabled on NewsOK. That is pretty weak.

Yes, let's cut off public discussion about how tax dollars are spent.

Really, we should stop calling them "TIF Funds". They are tax dollars plain and simple.

These articles should be worded: "Millions in tax dollars appropriated from Oklahoma City Public Schools to be gifted to the Arts Festival for tents and signage."

Yes, let's cut off public discussion about how tax dollars are spent.

Really, we should stop calling them "TIF Funds". They are tax dollars plain and simple.

These articles should be worded: "Millions in tax dollars appropriated from Oklahoma City Public Schools to be gifted to the Arts Festival for tents and signage."

You know, it is stuff like this (the redistribution of tax dollars to the private sector) that the millennials really hate, which is ironic because the City says this is the group they are trying to attract. And it's not just the millennials either; real Teapartiers like myself are tired of this crap. The whole reason for reurbanizing the core is so that it can be tax self-sustaining but this stuff blows the whole idea out of the water.

Let me add this comment as well - will these groups please please please stop with the economic justifications. No one with 5 cents worth of common sense is buying that line anymore. You want $1.5 million in tax dollars and the selling point is it will generate $200,000 in tax dollars - how about we just say no and keep the $1.5 million.

People just don't understand the TIF issue which is the way people running those programs want it.

It works out to be about the same as a full MAPS program which involves years of prep and input, tons of public meetings and vetting and ultimately a popular vote. Good grief, we are already forming committees and taking input for MAPS 4 now.

TIF is just a few people deciding to redirect hundreds of millions of tax dollars, the City Council has a 100% approval rate in all these matters so that's just a rubber stamp, then a couple of people sit behind closed doors gifting tens of millions to mainly rich people and then the City Council 100% approves each handout.

And if anyone on the council asks questions or God forbid actually seeks to deny a new district or allocation, they are branded as a progress-hating infidel.

Ed Shadid is the only one that speaks about this but I can assure you he is not alone in his scrutiny and skepticism.

Trouble is you can be right, but if you burn a lot of bridges it's hard to get people to listen to you.

And all they need are 5 votes anyway and probably at least 6 of the 9 are lead-pipe cinches for anything put forth in the name of 'economic development'.

This was just approved in today's City Council meeting.

sounds like it's pretty easy to get 1.5M in TIF, let's all apply! :-P

Chicago is known as the "City with big shoulders", OKC is going to be known as "The City that doesn't say no(to those with connections)"

Are you suggesting that Chicago is clean? That's laughable

Are you suggesting that Chicago is clean? That's laughable

Nope. I don't know how that inference could be made. There is no such thing as any city being "clean". Anyone suggesting otherwise is ill informed.

Nope. I don't know how that inference could be made. There is no such thing as any city being "clean". Anyone suggesting otherwise is ill informed.

I just got a kick out of Chicago being lauded as the "city with shoulders" when it's widely known to have one of the most corrupt governments in the country. The shoulders are only used to make whistleblowers sleep with the fishes lol

BTW, the primary argument Couch made for the reason the festival had to be moved ASAP (as opposed to waiting a year then doing this relocation as a part of Central Park) is that the OG&E construction would make the current location unusable.

That makes zero sense to me and I hope to get further clarification on that point.

There was also something tweeted about the arts council wanting to wait to move to central park until after area development had picked up.

I just got a kick out of Chicago being lauded as the "city with shoulders" when it's widely known to have one of the most corrupt governments in the country. The shoulders are only used to make whistleblowers sleep with the fishes lol

Chicago by Carl Sandburg : Poetry Magazine (http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poem/2043)


Chicago

By Carl Sandburg

Hog Butcher for the World,

Tool Maker, Stacker of Wheat,

Player with Railroads and the Nation's Freight Handler;

Stormy, husky, brawling,

City of the Big Shoulders: ....

If you were unfamiliar with the nickname I see your confusion.

Is it possible to grant the "TIF" money and then use invoices from the "relocation costs" and repay back the difference to the city? LOL I already know the answer to that.

But seriously, is there a way to see invoices for this extravagant relocation?

There was also something tweeted about the arts council wanting to wait to move to central park until after area development had picked up.

So the taxpayers should give them $1.5 which will be thrown away once they do move?

And how about the using the Festival to help kick off the park, get people down there and spur more development?

I agree with you...

Something just ain't right about the way the TIF program is utilized in OKC. I do wonder though if an investigation would ever be done knowing who the recipients and givers are.

I still don't understand though. What is being relocated?

They're moving the air from one place to another. Don't you know it's tough to move air? And very expensive.

They're moving the air from one place to another. Don't you know it's tough to move air? And very expensive.

While humorous, they aren't even doing that. They will use the air that already exists at Civic Park. I seriously wonder if this is hush money. Here is $1.5 million now go away quietly because we need your space for the CC.

They're moving the air from one place to another. Don't you know it's tough to move air? And very expensive.
11506

While humorous, they aren't even doing that. They will use the air that already exists at Civic Park. I seriously wonder if this is hush money. Here is $1.5 million now go away quietly because we need your space for the CC.

The will have to install extra electrical and plumbing to accommodate them and they also mentioned tents and signage.

The will have to install extra electrical and plumbing to accommodate them and they also mentioned tents and signage.

Yes - buy why is the Festival of the Arts paying for that? The property belongs to the City. That is nothing more than money laundering on behalf of the City by diverting county tax money for schools to make improvements at City owner land and just using the FotA has a middleman. I'm not joking when I say the FBI should take a look at this.

As for tents and signage - that is so crazy it should have been laughed at. And I won't even get started on the whole "blight" requirement at a City park just rebuilt as part of Project 180.

The project plan for TIF #2 specifically allows for investment in public properties.

Centennial Park was entirely paid for by the Devon TIF (with a kick-in from Larry Nichols).

The project plan for TIF #2 specifically allows for investment in public properties.

Centennial Park was entirely paid for by the Devon TIF (with a kick-in from Larry Nichols).

Yes - but Devon paid the tax that was used to make the public improvements. This isn't that. This is taking tax money not paid by FotA to make improvements to a public park on behalf of FotA. To be like the Devon situation FotA would have to pay some level of tax of which a portion was then used to make public improvements that may or may not benefit FotA.

All TIF money comes from redirected property tax, and sometimes redirected sales tax.

And public projects are usually a big part of any TIF project plan.

So then how does FotA contribute since they don't have any property? As for sales taxes, I think they are exempt from those since they are a 501(C)(3) organization.

We could debate this all night but the bottom line is this request should have been rejected, but since it wasn't then it has to be for a reason unknown to the general public.

These are public improvements for the most part.

Ive read and read and read the posts on this thread. The last few post pretty much outline what the TIFs do and the benefits they provide. Pete has asserted its taking public money and lining the pockets of the wealthy. JTF just doesnt want public money used for much of anything but it falls right into his lifestyle sweet-spot. Considering this is about a FofA, its a private entity, is one of the biggest events this city has to offer and it clearly benefits the city in general, i fail to see what all the bitchins about. TIFs are like earmarking funds for specific projects. I know you all are still hurting about Stage Center and though I have no love for the structure, its demolition should never have been allowed until construction was set. The BofA request sounds perfectly reasonable. The are no pockets to line. What am i missing?

My main complaint is that I'd be happier seeing this money spent on a permanent location for the Arts Festival and other events, rather than what appears to be a temporary location.

It is really just this simple - if the City wants to make improvements at Civic Park so that it is capable of hosting these types of events then the City just needs to do it - the own the park and they can use existing TIF money to do that right now. There is zero reason why FotA even needs to be involved with it. I am not opposed to the City spending tax dollars on public infrastructure (can't believe I even had to write that). What I am opposed to is the City giving tax money to a private entity to spend on public infrastructure. In what world does that even make sense? We give tax dollars to lots of developers so they can spend it on THEIR projects (too many to list) to ostensibly expand the tax base and sometimes developers pay taxes (or buys City property) which the City by agreement turns around and spends on public projects directly related to their development (Lower Bricktown and Outlet Mall), but this is the first time that I am aware of that it worked like this.

I would think the city is taking advantage of the tax revenue the FofA generates and the TIF allows them to earmark it for these improvements. Once the FofA moves on to a new place like Central Park, the improvements will be there for other and future events at CC to use. FofA isnt a private developer and the are no pockets to be lined here. Are you insinuating the city is writing the FofA a literal check? I can think of numerous things in Denver, here, that are similar. Near where i work, the city of Denver spent a few bucks with infrastructure so food trucks could congregate 2 days a week on our civic center park. Thats for the direct benefit of truck owners. The issues you raise in OKC arent even an issue here. People seem to better understand the benefit. Maybe it wasnt done thru a TIF, but the net effect seems the same.

I wouldn't have as much of an issue with this if it weren't for the fact that I had recently been to a festival at this very park. Seems like they had the things needed already to have a festival there, so I just don't understand what is needed over and above that.

Mug - your food truck Denver example is exactly how this should work, but that isn't how this deal is going down. In your example Denver paid for the improvements to public space to benefit the food trucks. They didn't give the money to the food trucks directly who may or may not make the public improvements the City of Denver made?

What happens in a few years when they move from Civic Park? Are they going to take their infrastructure with them or sell it to the City?

On your other question, yes the City will write them a check. How else would FotA get the money? They don't pay any taxes to get it via a rebate.