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jerrywall 02-19-2016, 10:23 AM Actually, I would like to see all of MAPS 4 go to commuter rail. It will cost that much to create a line between Edmond and Norman. And, I think it will have a very salutory effect on neighborhoods near stops, stimulating significant private development at those "nodes". I would like to see our next bond issue address sidewalks. Just my opinion. I will likely vote for MAPS no matter what plans are proposed.
As an Edmondnite, I disagree, if for no other reason we need to pay our share. I think a metro area transit authority fund is possible, and Norman and Edmond need to have a more direct funding input than just the occasional OKC sales tax.
Spartan 02-19-2016, 10:30 AM Actually, I would like to see all of MAPS 4 go to commuter rail. It will cost that much to create a line between Edmond and Norman. And, I think it will have a very salutory effect on neighborhoods near stops, stimulating significant private development at those "nodes". I would like to see our next bond issue address sidewalks. Just my opinion. I will likely vote for MAPS no matter what plans are proposed.
That's what I thought MAPS 4 was shaping up to be. So that's why I'm confused that Pete and Jonathan Dodson are trying to stir up some "MAPS 4 Neighborhoods" on the premise that it gets MAPS out of downtown. A train can leave downtown, too.
I'm not seeing anything in the MAPS 4 Neighborhoods program that shouldn't be done by a GO Bond. Maybe if we stopped using that funding mechanism to 4-lane every farm road between here and Kansas we would have a LOT of money to fix existing roads and build sidewalks WHERE THEY ARE NEEDED.
It still sounds like Pete wants to get a blank check for $62 million to Wards 8 and 5 which don't need it. "Oh no they will decide how they get to use it to meet some strategic goals and needs of that ward and don't you think they are deserving too?" So yes, a blank check for wards that don't need a dime of MAPS dollars.
I am sympathetic to the plight of getting something passed. The opposition to MAPS however, is not from the wealthiest in OKC. If anything, the opposition to MAPS is starting to come from the poorest in OKC. Actually pay attention to this and build a MAPS that's inclusive of those communities, and it will address the issue.
Keep in mind you have 5 mostly northside wards, and 3 southside wards, which is NOT proportional to who lives where (it really is half and half), and if we're going to make the ward boundaries the basis for MAPS dollars, then we are going to need fix the wards which would be biting off more than anyone can chew.
MAPS 4 Neighborhoods = Not This MAPS
warreng88 02-19-2016, 10:37 AM I wouldn't be opposed to a Maps 4 neighborhoods, but there needs to be a steering committee for each ward, with the city council person being only one vote of the committee.
In regards to rail from Edmond to OKC, Moore/Norman, do you think part of that could fall under the Bond vote as well as separate for an RTA or would it all be lumped in? They would have to pair this idea with bus system improvements and road improvements as those are going to be the main complaints if we start talking rail.
bradh 02-19-2016, 10:40 AM Maybe MAPS for Neighborhoods is too early? Maybe it's something that needs to be done after the RTA and commuter rail is set up, and then you can use that money to make the areas immediately around the stations (that are within OKC city limits) nice and attractive and not just parking lots where people come and go just to get on a train.
Laramie 02-19-2016, 10:47 AM Remember, fully half of MAPS 4 will still go to the traditional downtown-centered projects. $500 MM isn't much less than all of MAPS 3, which was $777 MM.
BTW, what are the downtown projects people want for MAPS 4?
Streetcar expansion, expand the Santa Fe station to hopefully include the current Cox Center, finish out the river improvements (wind screens, grandstands), Expand the canal, new, small soccer stadium capable of expansion.
We need a state of the art Aquatic Center, Soccer Stadium (downtown) and grandstand on the Oklahoma River.
OCCC has closed its aquatic center which served many area schools.
Spartan 02-19-2016, 10:52 AM Streetcar expansion, expand the Santa Fe station to hopefully include the current Cox Center, finish out the river improvements (wind screens, grandstands), Expand the canal, new, small soccer stadium capable of expansion.
In addition to streetcar expansion (I really hope we can do the whole Classen corridor and sync it on both ends, downtown and NW 63rd, with the OKGO commuter rail system), we will have a dire need for a new bus hub. It will be really important that someone could take the rail from anywhere downtown, along Classen, or Nichols Hills - and then transfer to an express bus or a local bus to go elsewhere.
It would be a small system still, but it would function really well. If you can find a way to use MAPS dollars (capital funding, not operational funding) to enhance the bus experience as well, you will do a major service to lower-income neighborhoods. That's the balance MAPS 4 will need, not more sidewalks and parks for Ward 8.
By the way - that 2008 GO Bond, disproportionately weighted toward areas north of Memorial Road, built new sidewalks whenever it widened a road to 4 lanes. So in REALITY Ward 8 already has the best sidewalks in the city, on every major road. And they didn't even have a need to begin with.
I am going to keep railing against some wards getting a dime of MAPS dollars because it's neither needed nor is it right.
Just the facts 02-19-2016, 10:52 AM Maybe MAPS for Neighborhoods is too early? Maybe it's something that needs to be done after the RTA and commuter rail is set up, and then you can use that money to make the areas immediately around the stations (that are within OKC city limits) nice and attractive and not just parking lots where people come and go just to get on a train.
When I first heard about MAPS for Neighborhoods I thought that is what they were going to do. I envisioned MAPS money being spent in Capitol Hill, Plaza District, Auto Alley, Paseo, 23rd Street, Midtown, Stockyard City, Western, Britton, etc....to revitalize the next ring of urban clusters and maybe create new ones where none exist. But that isn't what happened.
Spartan 02-19-2016, 10:55 AM ^ That would make sense. A LOT of sense, and I would be the #1 advocate for that.
This is a neighborhood (CTP) that deserves MAPS support:
http://p.rdcpix.com/v01/l73f89845-m0xd-w480_h480_q80.jpg
This is another neighborhood that deserves MAPS support:
http://www.okc.gov/planning/capitol_hill/Resources/cap.jpg
This is NOT a neighborhood that deserves MAPS support:
http://www.thelostogle.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/morning-wood.jpg
This isn't difficult to figure out.
I wouldn't be opposed to a Maps 4 neighborhoods, but there needs to be a steering committee for each ward, with the city council person being only one vote of the committee.
In regards to rail from Edmond to OKC, Moore/Norman, do you think part of that could fall under the Bond vote as well as separate for an RTA or would it all be lumped in? They would have to pair this idea with bus system improvements and road improvements as those are going to be the main complaints if we start talking rail.
I'll say it again, Ward 8 and 5 shouldn't get a dime from MAPS, so no need for a steering committee. I wouldn't want to waste people's time.
I think we will need to figure out the tax for all of this. We're looking at a MAPS 4 penny sales tax extension, a NEW education sales tax (huh?), and an RTA tax on top of that. I think that MAPS and the RTA will need to find some way to nest the taxes into each other. In OKC, maybe there isn't an RTA tax if part of the MAPS tax goes to the OKGO system.
bradh 02-19-2016, 11:06 AM Well played fitting in Morning Woods entrance in...even though it's in Edmond
No, just yes.
People vote in their own self interest. You live in the most individualistic society in the history of the world. It's somewhat foolish to assume just because you were swayed everyone else was. If you want a maps 5, maps 4 needs to pass and right now the push behind is hey we've helped foot the bill we'd like some investment too.
MAPS won't continue forever. If you have to waste MAPS 4 to get to MAPS 5, why not just do the MAPS 5 stuff and end it?
warreng88 02-19-2016, 11:26 AM In addition to streetcar expansion (I really hope we can do the whole Classen corridor and sync it on both ends, downtown and NW 63rd, with the OKGO commuter rail system), we will have a dire need for a new bus hub. It will be really important that someone could take the rail from anywhere downtown, along Classen, or Nichols Hills - and then transfer to an express bus or a local bus to go elsewhere.
It would be a small system still, but it would function really well. If you can find a way to use MAPS dollars (capital funding, not operational funding) to enhance the bus experience as well, you will do a major service to lower-income neighborhoods. That's the balance MAPS 4 will need, not more sidewalks and parks for Ward 8.
By the way - that 2008 GO Bond, disproportionately weighted toward areas north of Memorial Road, built new sidewalks whenever it widened a road to 4 lanes. So in REALITY Ward 8 already has the best sidewalks in the city, on every major road. And they didn't even have a need to begin with.
I am going to keep railing against some wards getting a dime of MAPS dollars because it's neither needed nor is it right.
I am curious if there has ever been a proposal for smaller bus hubs in the city or other cities? I think the main turnoff for me is that I would have to take a bus all the way downtown to get back to where I want to go. What if there were three or four smaller hubs that had direct lines downtown and to the other hubs, but also better routes around that neighborhood? For example, put one at NW Expressway and MacArthur that better serves the NW area of OKC, but also has a direct line downtown and to another hub at Reno and Council. This would also cost more, which I am aware of, because there would be an increase in the amount of buses, as well as employees and infrastructure. just a thought.
The problem with "spreading the money around" is that you lose any ability to make real change. It's the same problem with people wanting to use MAPS money to fix roads. It's just not enough.
A strong core supports the entire city. Right now saying "downtown has had enough money" is like a 300 lb fat guy saying that the 25 situps he's done are enough and he deserves his ice cream now.
The best thing we could do is work on connecting downtown with the downtown adjacent neighborhoods. Stockyard City, Capitol Hill, JFK. We are hoping that downtown will achieve critical mass, and better connections with nearby people will hopefully speed that along, as well as causing those neighborhoods to improve as well.
I do agree that MAPS 4 Neighborhoods should probably follow the RTA.
warreng88 02-19-2016, 11:39 AM The problem with "spreading the money around" is that you lose any ability to make real change. It's the same problem with people wanting to use MAPS money to fix roads. It's just not enough.
A strong core supports the entire city. Right now saying "downtown has had enough money" is like a 300 lb fat guy saying that the 25 situps he's done are enough and he deserves his ice cream now.
The best thing we could do is work on connecting downtown with the downtown adjacent neighborhoods. Stockyard City, Capitol Hill, JFK. We are hoping that downtown will achieve critical mass, and better connections with nearby people will hopefully speed that along, as well as causing those neighborhoods to improve as well.
I do agree that MAPS 4 Neighborhoods should probably follow the RTA.
I think the problem you will run into with that is that if you leave out, say Paseo and Plaza districts and you add money to others, you might not get the votes of the majority since they see their money going somewhere else. Not saying I agree with it, but I could see others feeling that way.
Again, this is not an either/or proposition.
The idea is that $500MM would still go to the sexy core projects.
That's about the same that area received in MAPS 3.
And the bottom line is they aren't going to get a red cent unless this measure passes and I can almost guarantee you it won't without spreading love to all the wards.
checkthat 02-19-2016, 12:13 PM I think we will need to figure out the tax for all of this. We're looking at a MAPS 4 penny sales tax extension, a NEW education sales tax (huh?), and an RTA tax on top of that. I think that MAPS and the RTA will need to find some way to nest the taxes into each other. In OKC, maybe there isn't an RTA tax if part of the MAPS tax goes to the OKGO system.
Hey now, it is only another penny. There are, like, 100 in every dollar!
Spartan 02-19-2016, 12:32 PM Well played fitting in Morning Woods entrance in...even though it's in Edmond
Yeah I wanted to god an angle that didn't say "COLTRANE" on a fluorescent sign, but that was only after looking for one of PB Odom's Green Valley signs (he developed everything between 89th and 134th w consistent "Green Valley" branding). First rule of attacking suburbs - throw your own under the bus before you go after someone else's slice of suburban paradise.
By the way just to settle this issue, I'm not anti-suburb. It serves a really important purpose. Housing should serve the people who live in it. That said, OKC's housing stock is not conducive for its needs in 2016. We are way overbuilt on ranch homes, which will depress the value of those, and way under built on quality rental and urban housing, which will inflate the values of those. What we have is a housing crisis on multiple fronts bc suburban homeowners aren't building equity like they should while renters (young pros) are cost burdened. And none of it is making OKC attractive for relocation, it's actually something we have to get people to look past.
bradh 02-19-2016, 01:38 PM I was just giving you a nod for working in a childish joke with that sign usage, a virtual thumbs up
Just the facts 02-19-2016, 02:16 PM I am curious if there has ever been a proposal for smaller bus hubs in the city or other cities? I think the main turnoff for me is that I would have to take a bus all the way downtown to get back to where I want to go. What if there were three or four smaller hubs that had direct lines downtown and to the other hubs, but also better routes around that neighborhood? For example, put one at NW Expressway and MacArthur that better serves the NW area of OKC, but also has a direct line downtown and to another hub at Reno and Council. This would also cost more, which I am aware of, because there would be an increase in the amount of buses, as well as employees and infrastructure. just a thought.
Three or four years ago I proposed a neighborhood-based bus system that ran within 3 blocks of every front door every 15 minutes in the area area bounded by I-240/I-44/I-35 using the same number of vehicles used today.
Laramie 02-19-2016, 02:32 PM ^ That would make sense. A LOT of sense, and I would be the #1 advocate for that.
This is a neighborhood (CTP) that deserves MAPS support:
http://p.rdcpix.com/v01/l73f89845-m0xd-w480_h480_q80.jpg
This is another neighborhood that deserves MAPS support:
http://www.okc.gov/planning/capitol_hill/Resources/cap.jpg
This is NOT a neighborhood that deserves MAPS support:
http://www.thelostogle.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/morning-wood.jpg
This isn't difficult to figure out.
I'll say it again, Ward 8 and 5 shouldn't get a dime from MAPS, so no need for a steering committee. I wouldn't want to waste people's time.
I think we will need to figure out the tax for all of this. We're looking at a MAPS 4 penny sales tax extension, a NEW education sales tax (huh?), and an RTA tax on top of that. I think that MAPS and the RTA will need to find some way to nest the taxes into each other. In OKC, maybe there isn't an RTA tax if part of the MAPS tax goes to the OKGO system.
Agree,
We understand your point Spartan; however, every Ward has neighborhoods that could use funds. Let's determined where those neighborhoods are. The elaborate well-lighted clean hoods wouldn't.
Those patrons who live in the more upscale hoods will feel slighted; because they are paying more in sales taxes.
There is always something you can do to improve your area. The people who live in those surroundings are better equipped to point those things out--especially if there are concerns about infrastructure, creeks, ravines & streams.
betts 02-19-2016, 03:23 PM As an Edmondnite, I disagree, if for no other reason we need to pay our share. I think a metro area transit authority fund is possible, and Norman and Edmond need to have a more direct funding input than just the occasional OKC sales tax.
I did not mean to imply that Edmond, Norman, etc. don't need to pay their fair share, but it will still be pricey. I think it will be very difficult to get a MAPS and RTA tax passed fairly simultaneously. We may get one but not the other, and I think an RTA will have far more impact than anything being discussed re MAPS 4 Neighborhoods. Just my opinion.
How about we get a plan in place for the RTA, get that passed, and then work MAPS 4 around it?
^
That -- or something similar -- could very much end up being one of the outcomes of this process.
johnnyhooper 02-19-2016, 04:35 PM This is all moot. A bunch of us already decided that it's MAPS 4: Dome the City.
OKCRT 02-19-2016, 05:18 PM This is all moot. A bunch of us already decided that it's MAPS 4: Dome the City.
The money will prob need to go to finish the CC anyways if they want to compete for the bigger money making conventions. CC stage 2 & Streetcar expansion could prob. easily eat up another billion.
But if 500 mil is going to different neighborhoods around the city I would start in the poorest hoods and work out from there.
Spartan 02-20-2016, 05:18 AM Agree,
We understand your point Spartan; however, every Ward has neighborhoods that could use funds. Let's determined where those neighborhoods are. The elaborate well-lighted clean hoods wouldn't.
Those patrons who live in the more upscale hoods will feel slighted; because they are paying more in sales taxes.
There is always something you can do to improve your area. The people who live in those surroundings are better equipped to point those things out--especially if there are concerns about infrastructure, creeks, ravines & streams.
So you're saying you want a MAPS 4 Creeks, Ravines, & Streams... so that upscale hoods don't "feel slighted"? Okie dokie.
I am so glad we've totally left the reservation on the idea of inner city revitalization just bc we got a few new restaurants on 23rd Street. I think some of you that seem to be under the impression that OKC is good now and doesn't need a serious MAPS 4, you should get out a little. Go see other cities and how they're doing.
KC, Dallas, Austin, Minneapolis, Salt Lake, Denver, Indy, Cincy, Columbus, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Philly, DC, Atlanta, Charlotte - any of those cities should be sufficient for opening your eyes when you get back. Mpls has like 40,000 downtown residents and is on track for 75,000 by 2025, and whenever they do a new light rail corridor, they plan for over $10 billion in TOD. That's a visionary city.
The first 24 hours after I've landed back in OKC are always the hardest for me. Of course, many of those cities would find a way to apportion some of this toward quality affordable housing, but hey let's not get crazy here. There aren't many areas where OKC doesn't have a LONG way to go still. Giving Ward 5 and Ward 8 and everyone else $62 million just to be fair will put us that much farther behind more successful cities.
soonerguru 02-20-2016, 12:50 PM What about place making and beautification? Were those identified? I agree with Spartan. This is the problem OKC has being so spread out. Just divvying up $62 million between wards prevents strategically using resources to target bigger needs. Also, this money should go toward hard infrastructure, art, sidewalks, etc. only and nothing do to with general budget items.
Spartan 02-21-2016, 05:11 PM Yeah we DONT need Vision 2025 here. I hope we aren't that amateur.
Urban Pioneer 02-22-2016, 10:06 PM So, I guess their next meeting is tomorrow night at Tulakes Elementary 6 - 7:30. I went to the one at Ralph Ellison Library and did not participate but went and observed. Then I went to the one at City Presbyterian and did actually participate in a group.
Beautification did not come up as a specific word very often. Place making did occasionally. The group's organizers discuss these items in the podcast.
Perhaps things have changed since MAPS 3 with how you get things done politically. I suspect not though. I am not sure that this initiative has the lift to make it through the process without a bit more of a edge to it. Its organizers are honorable in their approach and honest in their aspirations. There just seems to be a fair dose of 'millennialesque naivety' attached to this process though.
I think to be successful in obtaining commitments, their strategy is definitely going to need refinement, discipline, and clarity.
Urban Pioneer 02-23-2016, 10:09 PM Several of us OKC Talker's went tonight to Tulakes Elementary. The attendance was modest but the representation was very geographically diversified. Since it was a smaller group, we had a chance to talk in more detail about solutions. It was a positive experience with more to come. Ed Shadid attended as well as former school board member Laura Massenant. A new City councilman from War Acres also attended.
The organizers seem to have some good moves planned.
David 02-24-2016, 12:32 AM That was a very interesting meeting, and it was nice meeting you in person Jeff.
Sorry I missed it but had a meeting that ran late.
Thanks to those who participated!
Urban Pioneer 02-24-2016, 11:35 AM Thanks! I enjoyed meeting you as well!
Interesting article by Bill Crum.
Most notably:
1. The powers that be are strongly considering moving the MAPS 4 vote up to *this* November where it would go head-to-head with Boren's penny sales tax increase for schools.
2. There is mention of making the length of the sales tax collection as short as 2 years, which would mean MAPS 4 would be much smaller than the previous MAPS initiatives.
All this has been brewing for a while and there are various theories as to why the Chamber and those usually behind MAPS would want to get this on the ballot so soon and make the term so short.
We're going to be hearing much more about this in the near future.
http://newsok.com/maps-4-in-the-works-for-oklahoma-city/article/5497807
d-usa 05-15-2016, 03:25 PM I could definitely see this as an attempt to deflate the school tax proposal.
Councilman Shadid just posted this on Facebook:
"Is "MAPS 4 Neighborhoods" being used by the city's power brokers as a sacrificial lamb to stop David Boren's sales tax initiative? It is hard to explain putting MAPS 4 on this November's ballot 3 months from now with no previous discussion before this week, the Chamber of Commerce admitting that financing a campaign would be expensive because of the cost of advertising during a presidential campaign, and no public engagement or plan as to what would be included in such an initiative. Councilman Greiner is correct in stating that if you want MAPS to fail you place it on this November's ballot. But perhaps by overloading the voter with tax initiatives, the real goal is to defeat all tax initiatives, including David Boren's."
dankrutka 05-15-2016, 04:11 PM It also seems politically dangerous to create an opponent in those who are in favor of addressing the public education funding shortfalls. I completely support all the MAPs projects, but education in Oklahoma is in absolute crisis mode. If they make it a political battle, and I had to choose (which I don't because I don't have a vote), then I would choose education over MAPs. The reason I say this is because I think there are a lot of people who feel the same.
Paseofreak 05-15-2016, 05:00 PM All for MAPS and all for great education system and a lot of other great things. But Oklahoma getting a brand new shiny one cent education tax because they gave the old tax to the wealthy and to corporate interests just pisses me off.
mkjeeves 05-15-2016, 05:42 PM The whole state votes on the cent for education and only OKC residents on MAPS 4, right? That makes the dynamic a bit more challenging, but I think pairing the two dilutes the OKC votes for both. It wouldn't surprise me to see MAPS 4 fail, the OKC vote not be a majority for education but it pass anyway.
No surprise the powers that be are throwing MAPS 4 under the bus. Not good for MAPS in general, a nail in the coffin of the brand.
Teo9969 05-15-2016, 06:15 PM Either a nail in the coffin or a chance to raise keep the tax at the higher level for an extended period so that citizens get used to paying nearly 10% sales tax.
d-usa 05-15-2016, 06:46 PM I would vote yes for both, but I don't know if I would have faith in the city as a whole to do the same.
bradh 05-15-2016, 10:36 PM I appreciate his intent but I do not like Boren's plan. Wish someone had a better idea. Allow cities to get something out of property taxes and not have to rely solely on sales tax.
Midtowner 05-16-2016, 07:38 AM I'm no voting Boren's plan because I know the same thing will happen with it which happened with the lottery despite Constitutional provisions forbidding the legislature from redirecting general funds, that's what's going to happen. This is the wrong kind of tax hike. Its simply delays the inevitable--the legislature removing all of the ill advised tax credits and cuts.
gopokes88 05-16-2016, 10:00 AM Same thoughts here voting no. Establish constitutional funding minimums first otherwise they'll just redirect other money
Jersey Boss 05-16-2016, 10:43 AM I'm no voting Boren's plan because I know the same thing will happen with it which happened with the lottery despite Constitutional provisions forbidding the legislature from redirecting general funds, that's what's going to happen. This is the wrong kind of tax hike. Its simply delays the inevitable--the legislature removing all of the ill advised tax credits and cuts.
An editorial in the Tulsa World that expands on your thoughts about school funding and the lack of will on what needs to be done. Also shows some of the impacts in the Tulsa area . Shame on the legislature and the Governor.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/editorials/tulsa-world-editorial-throughout-the-state-schools-are-cutting-millions/article_a76062a7-88a0-5ad9-ab35-7a356b0083f1.html
Regardless of you feel about the Boren plan, it seems almost certain MAPS 4 will fail if they push it to the November 2016 ballot, rather than waiting for 2017 as had always been assumed.
So the question remains, why are the powers that be making this push? And why are thy lobbying to make it short (as little as 2 years) when others have been much longer collection periods?
I think it's safe to say they are not enthusiastic about this latest round of MAPS and what the citizen groups are clamoring for and don't really care if it passes. And if it does, they certainly want to keep it short so they can come back in a few years and push for the inevitable convention center expansion and other central-city big projects they have always championed in the past.
onthestrip 05-16-2016, 01:14 PM Regardless of you feel about the Boren plan, it seems almost certain MAPS 4 will fail if they push it to the November 2016 ballot, rather than waiting for 2017 as had always been assumed.
So the question remains, why are the powers that be making this push? And why are thy lobbying to make it short (as little as 2 years) when others have been much longer collection periods?
I think it's safe to say they are not enthusiastic about this latest round of MAPS and what the citizen groups are clamoring for and don't really care if it passes. And if it does, they certainly want to keep it short so they can come back in a few years and push for the inevitable convention center expansion and other central-city big projects they have always championed in the past.
Im guessing they are considering doing it this November to go head to head against Boren's education plan. Given the choice between the two, the MAPS folks might be assuming that they are the better choice for a penny tax. Or they might think that if Borens plan passes this year, that voters will want some sales tax relief next year and will not pass another MAPs tax.
And they might be considering rushing it to this years ballot as a way to limit the time for MAPs opponents to organize,
Teo9969 05-16-2016, 01:28 PM I really think they're afraid of the timing. In relationship to the next MAPS. Like onthestrip said: People may want a break next year...but if citizens pay the near 10% for a longer stretch, they'll get used to it.
Laramie 05-16-2016, 03:26 PM It will be a tough sell with the State budget crunch where we are about to experience cuts to the bone. I pay property taxes in Texas (30 acres/no homestead) as well as Oklahoma.
I certainly don't want my property taxes to go up any higher than they are already.
As usual with MAPS; there will not be a sales tax increase; simply a continuation...
The strategy being used may not be a plot to derail Boren's plan but more in line with timing of the MAPS III projects for the one's completed for the supporters to enjoy what has been accomplished in the current MAPS projects under construction. The completion of the Riversport Rapids Adventure will certainly play well for MAPS which is an established initiative that will get a good portion of support.
MAPS for Neighborhood may be a test or a sacrificial lamb offering; the most a two year extension will generate is $200 million in projected revenue. My question, what could you do in the neighborhoods that would have a meaningful affect other than some kind of infrastructure. The thing about infrastructure improvements like sewer and waste channels--they aren't as visible as structures like the arena, canal & ballpark.
gopokes88 05-16-2016, 05:15 PM It will be a tough sell with the State budget crunch where we are about to experience cuts to the bone. I pay property taxes in Texas (30 acres/no homestead) as well as Oklahoma.
I certainly don't want my property taxes to go up any higher than they are already.
As usual with MAPS; there will not be a sales tax increase; simply a continuation...
The strategy being used may not be a plot to derail Boren's plan but more in line with timing of the MAPS III projects for the one's completed for the supporters to enjoy what has been accomplished in the current MAPS projects under construction. The completion of the Riversport Rapids Adventure will certainly play well for MAPS which is an established initiative that will get a good portion of support.
MAPS for Neighborhood may be a test or a sacrificial lamb offering; the most a two year extension will generate is $200 million in projected revenue. My question, what could you do in the neighborhoods that would have a meaningful affect other than some kind of infrastructure. The thing about infrastructure improvements like sewer and waste channels--they aren't as visible as structures like the arena, canal & ballpark.
Sidewalks. I dk how many sidewalks $200 million buys but I bet it's a lot
d-usa 05-18-2016, 06:19 PM I don't know if sidewalks are something that they can dress up enough to get people to vote for it.
I would love to have functional sidewalks throughout the entire city, but it's hard to put a bow on that and get people excited.
warreng88 05-22-2016, 02:42 PM MAPS 4 probably won’t happen this year
By: Brian Brus The Journal Record May 20, 2016
OKLAHOMA CITY – Getting the next iteration of the multimillion-dollar MAPS sales tax issues on a ballot by November’s general election is an attractive notion but highly unlikely, city officials said.
“There’s been no decision made yet to put it on a ballot,” said Jonathan Dodson, spokesman for the MAPS 4 Neighborhoods grass-roots movement. “There’s a lot of work, obviously, that has to be done. If we had our druthers, we would hope to do it next year.”
Cynthia Reid, spokeswoman for the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, said, “I don’t want to completely say there’s no way we could do a MAPS in November. I just think there’s pluses and minuses that will have to be taken into consideration before we can move forward.”
Although some public figures have mentioned a November vote on MAPS 4 – including promotional material for a town hall meeting Tuesday hosted by Ed Shadid – six months is not enough time to expect City Hall to seriously consider residents’ expectations and refine a project list, Dodson and others said.
The most recent Metropolitan Area Projects issue was approved by voters in December 2009. In his January 2007 State of the City address nearly three years earlier, Mayor Mick Cornett launched a public survey to gauge initial response with a press release that asked, “Should Oklahoma City consider a MAPS 3? If so, what types of projects should be included?”
The survey website accepted input for four months, producing more than 2,700 responses, with 85 percent expressing support for the issue. It was then set aside briefly to bring more public attention to upcoming bond issues for Oklahoma City Public Schools repairs and city streets.
It wasn’t until September 2009 that Cornett and City Council members announced the final list of MAPS 3 projects worth a total of $777 million, following months of town hall meetings and council discussions over fine details. Officials then called the election date and submitted the text to the county election board for approval and printing for the December ballot.
Dodson said members of his group felt they got a jump on shaping the direction of MAPS 4 in January this year as the coalition of neighborhood associations started holding meetings to discuss beautification efforts, bike lanes, an expanded bus system, school menus and a general sense of security in public spaces that includes street lighting and sidewalks. The group even went so far as to create a MAPS 4 Neighborhoods logo to promote their efforts and asked University of Oklahoma researchers to help identify the best modes of public engagement.
“We still feel like we still need to do more and hear from more people,” Dodson said.
The chamber of commerce campaigned heavily to get the previous MAPS issues passed, and Reid said the fourth wouldn’t be any different. Public education has been the key to success, she said, and the effort can’t be rushed.
“The short time frame and the crowded ballot is certainly a concern for us,” Reid said. “There’s other concerns as well, such as the potential for a school bond issue.”
The fourth MAPS might turn out to be an extension of current projects, she said, which would help shorten the campaign; starting over with a fresh concept would take longer.
Cornett said Friday that he wasn’t even sure yet what theme would shape the next MAPS project list, although top priorities would likely be public safety, street improvements and neighborhoods.
“We’re just talking about it right now to see where everybody is. I’ve only talked with a few council members, not all of them,” Cornett said. “It’s too early to know.”
None of the public officials contacted Friday could estimate when MAPS 4 might be put up for public vote.
gopokes88 05-23-2016, 09:59 AM Bad timing for their neighborhood meeting. Tuesday at 7pm, meanwhile one of the thunders biggest games ever will be going on.
OkieDave 05-23-2016, 11:08 AM Meeting at 7pm. Will essentially be over by time of tip-off at 8pm. First quarter never matters. More than 200 have signed up on Facebook knowing there was a game. Thunder have it in the bag anyway :)
CCOKC 05-23-2016, 10:35 PM I signed up not realizing that the Thunder game would be the same night. I would love to be at the meeting but I spend a lot of money for my season tickets for the pleasure of watching the Thunder in the playoffs. Hopefully the meeting will be recorded.
Bellaboo 05-24-2016, 10:37 AM Meeting at 7pm. Will essentially be over by time of tip-off at 8pm. First quarter never matters. More than 200 have signed up on Facebook knowing there was a game. Thunder have it in the bag anyway :)
What if you're going to the game ? You forget the meeting.
krisb 05-25-2016, 12:14 AM I attended the meeting and left a few minutes early to catch the game, not a big deal. Discussing the future of how we build our city will only help our big league status.
okccowan 05-25-2016, 12:49 PM I have voted yes on other MAPS and fully support MAPS 3. But I will not vote yes for a Maps for Neighborhoods. Using a temporary sales tax to fund neighborhood improvements is literally the worst possible idea. MAPS should only be used for major metro projects, like Bricktown Ballpark, DT Library, Streetcar system, River improvements, stadiums, etc. A temporary sales tax should never be used for "neighborhood" projects. Hopefully, this effort fails and we can get back to serious MAPS proposals in a couple years.
gopokes88 05-25-2016, 01:29 PM I have voted yes on other MAPS and fully support MAPS 3. But I will not vote yes for a Maps for Neighborhoods. Using a temporary sales tax to fund neighborhood improvements is literally the worst possible idea. MAPS should only be used for major metro projects, like Bricktown Ballpark, DT Library, Streetcar system, River improvements, stadiums, etc. A temporary sales tax should never be used for "neighborhood" projects. Hopefully, this effort fails and we can get back to serious MAPS proposals in a couple years.
If you want a MAPS 5 to keep getting all those things, better vote yes on MAPS 4 and hope it passes. Once a MAPS vote fails, program is likely toast. That's just the realistic pragmatic view.
http://newsok.com/article/5509972?utm_source=NewsOK.com&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=ShareBar-Twitter
Looks like this may not carry the MAPS brand.
Somebody out there has put up a new website with the obvious intention of dissuading people for voting for the Boren $.01 sales tax increase for education, with the implication it would kill MAPS:
http://okcunited.org/
Look at how this poll is worded:
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/mapspoll.jpg
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