Thanks. Wrong side of town for me. I will have to follow on facebook.

In case this hasn't been posted; bunch of meetings planned in the various council districts to receive community input:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/maps4a.jpg


Just a head's up. This flier by their volunteers is wrong. I just went over there to attend the meeting and some guy sheepishly told me and others that it was wrong and that this meeting is actually next Tuesday, the 16th, at 6PM. It looked as though a few people did not get the word and were coming in as I left.

It looks as though their twitter feed hasn't been operated since August although their Facebook page is regularly engaged.

Reminder that the next MAPS 4 meeting is tonight (Tuesday) at City Presbyterian, 829 NW 13th. Park at the Oklahoma Heritage Museum then enter through the red, north doors.

I'm planning to be there... If any of you decide to go send me a PM and we can meet up.


https://www.facebook.com/events/1715992451949573/

Went to this tonight and it was very interesting. Will post a detailed summary soon.

Also, people should turn out for the last of these meeting which will be held on the NW side. I'll post more details on that as well.

Would be great to get a good OKCTalk turnout because it's a legit change to influence what actually goes on the MAPS 4 ballot.

Went to this tonight and it was very interesting. Will post a detailed summary soon.

Also, people should turn out for the last of these meeting which will be held on the NW side. I'll post more details on that as well.

Would be great to get a good OKCTalk turnout because it's a legit change to influence what actually goes on the MAPS 4 ballot.

Thanks, look forward to the summary! I wanted to make the meeting last night, but had prior commitments. The last meeting might be worth the drive.

Wanted to provide a quick recap of the MAPS 4 Neighborhoods held earlier this week

This is a grass-roots movement being headed by Jonathan Dodson (Pivot Group: Tower Theater, etc.) and a few other community activists. It's not sanctioned by the City in any way, although the group has been talking to City officials and doing their best to keep them updated.

This was the third of four planned meetings. The first was on the NE side, the second in Capitol Hill and the fourth and last will be Tuesday February 23rd at Tulakes Elementary 6600 Galaxie Drive from 6:00 to 7:30PM.

Dodson said in his conversations with the City and the Chamber of Commerce, MAPS 4 was projected to be about $1 billion in revenues. The desire is to carve out $500 million of that for the MAPS 4 Neighborhood initiatives identified through this process. The $500 MM would be equally split between the 8 City wards. He also said they want to put these projects at the front of the line, with the other half of MAPS being done after all these projects were fully funded. As you may know, MAPS collects $.01 of sales tax and only spends money after is is collected.

The steering/planning committee (Dodson et al) explained 4 general areas had been identified for enhancement through the MAPS 4 Neighborhoods process:


Connectivity. Sidewalks, trails, buses, mass transit. Things that bring the various neighborhoods together.
Arts & Culture. Leverage the unique history of various neighborhoods.
Health. Both physical and mental.
Safety. Public safety but also enhancing the feeling of safety around the city.



After the introduction and summary, they then asked us to form groups of 5 or 6 and handed each group a list of 18 questions to help brainstorm ideas. We only had about 30 minutes for this exercise, so the idea was not to answer all 18 but to pick a handful to help flesh out ideas that would generally fit into the four general identified categories.

The questions were things like: What are the best things about your neighborhood? What would you like others to know about your 'hood? What are three ways your 'hood could be improved? Etc.

My group of 5 was pretty interesting: a young woman who lived in the Regency Tower and didn't own a car; a 30-ish guy would lived near SW 59th & Walker; a youngish guy who lived in the Miller neighborhood; and a young guy who lived near the Paseo. And then me: Middle-aged and living in SoSA. (There were people of all ages in the room but the age skewed to the younger. This particular meeting was held at City Presbyterian at 13th & Shartel.)

After the exercise, each group had a spokesman present ideas. There were 7 groups I believe.

The ideas turned out to be very similar and not surprising:


Finish all the sidewalks identified in MAPS 3 (only half ended up fitting into the final budget) and do more. Fix existing sidewalks.
Dedicated and protected bike lanes. More trails.
Improve schools. The Edgemere community school was referenced multiple times a a good example.
Utilize the schools and grounds to bring the local community together through night classes and other offerings. (My HUGE pet peeve: Locking up the playgrounds and play fields from public use.)
Better activating the parks through programming and better facilities (water fountains, shade, gazebos, etc.)
Better lighting for streets and sidewalks.
Adequate bus shelters and better bus service.
Expand the streetcar to tie together 'hoods.



Nothing earth-shattering but these ideas are starting to take familiar themes and thus coalesce into specific and targeted projects.

One idea that came out of my group that I thought was excellent: Mini Open Streets for all over City. Not just big commercial streets like 23rd, but more like a neighborhood block party for places like Miller or Gatewood or any other area more or less identified as a 'hood or contiguous group of 'hoods.

The idea being that the City helps facilitate these events to bring people out of their houses and backyards and actually interact. Only good things can come from that.

As we were discussing this it occurred to me that most existing neighborhood groups – including the ones on Nextdoor.com – come together over problems: Proposed development, perceived blight, etc. Then, they often remain centered on bitching and negative things (I have been and am now part of Nextdoor.com 'hood groups and this seems to be the general tone.)


Keep in mind this $500MM has not been promised for neighborhoods but the idea is that these groups will help leverage that but insisting on it before voting for the next round of MAPS.

At least half would still go to the sexy, Chamber-driven stuff like we've had in the past. You can bet they are going to hit hard on diversifying the economy, providing more incentives, etc.


Strongly encourage people to turn out for the last meeting on Feb. 23rd.

I've put the last meeting on my personal calendar to attend, I should be there.

Great work Pete, this is exciting news!

Certainly feel that the MAPS 4 Neighborhoods could be the general theme.

A $1 billion initiative with $500 million divided among the eight wards ($62.5 million) designated for the hood could be on solid ground. Let's face the fact that some neighborhoods may possibly need a little more; so a contingency fund could be available to address that--more like a grant after the $400 million is allocated for projects other than neighborhoods like possible upkeep/renovation of some of the previously completed projects which would leave $100 million in a contingency fund.

Will get my hips to the next meeting.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7435/12904712915_2eaffef273_z.jpg

Did they mention anything about improvements of the city parks--to make them more neighborhood friendly or/are they included in the neighborhood package?

It's kind of asinine that MAPS has to be opened up to the entire city. Yes MAPS 3 mostly sorta focused on the central city, but just for the sake of a convention center. Ward 5, 3, 1, and especially 8 don't need MAPS dollars - and especially don't need $62 million of idiotic pet projects. There is no way to not waste that kind of money in those wards.

It's disappointing to tarnish the MAPS legacy by abandoning the inner city like this. It's one thing to branch out of downtown and start connecting neighborhoods to the core. Once you do that, synergy and prosperity starts to spread outward - but that shouldn't be confused with a desire to have MAPS projects on NW 122nd or up and down I-44 (oh wait we already do).

The inner south side has also been carved up in a way that deliberately prevents that area from having a council seat. It's mostly represented by Meg Salyer, who is an excellent councilor for the downtown area. Is she supposed to forgo $62 million in downtown-area neighborhood projects (money that could really help in CTP, Linwood, C2S, etc) so that Capitol Hill can get stuff? Because that's the only way under this arrangement that Capitol Hill gets anything, unless Pete White puts all of his projects along Shields, which is disconnected from Capitol Hill's actual neighborhood fabric.

This is a huge fail. The sooner we abandon the strategy of spreading MAPS dollars around the city like chunky peanut butter over bread, the better off we will be.

^

Each Ward could spend $62 alone on sidewalks, let alone bus shelters, park improvements, better lighting, etc., etc.

$500MM would likely still go to the core.

Why should we have sidewalks, bus shelters, and "park" improvements in Ward 8? They already have a nicer park (Martin Park) than anything on the south side. I don't get it. Also like I said, the wards don't AT ALL correspond to the city's neighborhoods. They're arbitrarily drawn to keep certain council people in office, and certain parts of town (Capitol Hill) on the outside looking in.

ANY of this money being spent outside of wards 2, 6, and 7 is anti-MAPS. This isn't an alternate CDBG for high-income census tracts that otherwise don't qualify for projects. MAPS is a place-based revitalization mechanism. We've never had qualification standards for census tracts, but MAYBE we should if it's just a city-wide free-for-all.

I live in ward 8 and agree with Spartan, as much as he probably despises my life choices.

I don't. I'm from Ward 5. I will just say we also don't need MAPS dollars in the city's highest-income ZIP code... we instead need the inner south side revitalized so that blight and other trends stop creeping southward.

We need to both keep investing in a strong beating heart, but at the same time the time is right to connect neighborhoods into that beating heart. No denying that. However, let's not miss the forest for the tree. You don't fix the south side by totally skipping over the south side's challenge area.

I can't say enough how this is the most idiotic community development strategy I have EVER seen and I am not one bit surprised. If this transpires, MAPS is toast. It also really annoys me when people put stupid ideas and words in my mouth. I'm not a straw man and I don't like my message being totally misconstrued.

First of all, why not spend MAPS money in those wards? MAPS is about making OKC better, not just downtown.

Secondly, another MAPS likely won't pass unless they spread the love. There is enough political opposition to another 95% downtown Chamber-driven tax that it will never get passed otherwise.

First, MAPS is about the inner city. That's what it has always been. Secondly, then let's not have a 95% downtown Chamber-driven tax.

You're asking why not spend money in those wards? I'm giving you a litany of why not... better question is WHY?

Also you'll recall that most of the MAPS opposition comes from the south side. We'll really solve that issue by apportioning MAPS dollars into 3 mostly-south wards, and 5 mostly-north wards. Brilliant!

I personally think OKC has progressed beyond its need for MAPS as we have known it in the past. The original intention of MAPS was to kickstart a dead downtown, which has been accomplished.

I think at this point, infrastructure improvement, lighting, sidewalks, parks, schools, etc should be the focus and it sounds like the direction they are going. I think in terms of sidewalks, they need to do a study to determine where they make the most sense. So much of this city, even in the urban core, does not have them and there won't be enough money to do a complete build out, so they need to be placed where they are most needed. I also really like that they are pursuing streetcar expansion. I think its essential that the streetcar gets expanded at least to Capitol Hill, NE OKC, and as far as 63rd and Western within the next decade.

I am torn though on whether or not to call this MAPS. Most of what is being talked about could be accomplished through a massive bond package.

I also hate to say it, but there are some parts of OKC that will never be revitalized and the city is better off as a whole not throwing money at those areas for the sake of getting votes, because that's less money for parts of the city that could really benefit.

As you may know, MAPS collects $.01 of sales tax and only spends money after is is collected.

Selling it as a penny tax has always bothered me. Why don't we raise property or income taxes by a penny to pay for these initiatives? Because that is 1% and people will freak out. When it comes to sales tax though, hey, it is just a penny.

First, MAPS is about the inner city. That's what it has always been. Secondly, then let's not have a 95% downtown Chamber-driven tax.

You're asking why not spend money in those wards? I'm giving you a litany of why not... better question is WHY?

Also you'll recall that most of the MAPS opposition comes from the south side. We'll really solve that issue by apportioning MAPS dollars into 3 mostly-south wards, and 5 mostly-north wards. Brilliant!

Absolutely nothing in the MAPS charter or promotional materials on anything else says it's for the inner city.

I already gave you good reasons to spend money in those wards... Are they less deserving of sidewalks and public transportation and parks?

I'm not talking about where previous opposition came from... I'm talking about the current reality of organized political opposition and the ability to effectively kill any MAPS votes by mobilizing a base of people large enough make the difference, as public turnout is always so low.

Selling it as a penny tax has always bothered me. Why don't we raise property or income taxes by a penny to pay for these initiatives? Because that is 1% and people will freak out. When it comes to sales tax though, hey, it is just a penny.

Remember lots of people pay sales tax in OKC that don't live in OKC. Hotels, restaurants and stores... Not only tourists but people who live in Yukon and Edmond and Moore.

Sorry - I just have to laugh at this whole idea. I can't wait to see which ward uses their $62 million to lure a Walmart shopping center.

Sorry - I just have to laugh at this whole idea. I can't wait to see which ward uses their $62 million to lure a Walmart shopping center.

There would be specific projects just like every other MAPS.

Recent podcast on this subject with some of the organizers:

Episode 59 - Maps4Neighborhoods (http://mostlyharmless.media/episodes/2016/2/15/episode-59-maps4neighborhoods)

Well darn. I was just getting all excited about these ideas and then a few negative comments dampened my enthusiasm. I don't necessarily mind criticism but not when it is caustic, overly critical and ridicules ideas of well intentioned citizens.

I personally think OKC has progressed beyond its need for MAPS as we have known it in the past. The original intention of MAPS was to kickstart a dead downtown, which has been accomplished.

I think at this point, infrastructure improvement, lighting, sidewalks, parks, schools, etc should be the focus and it sounds like the direction they are going. I think in terms of sidewalks, they need to do a study to determine where they make the most sense. So much of this city, even in the urban core, does not have them and there won't be enough money to do a complete build out, so they need to be placed where they are most needed. I also really like that they are pursuing streetcar expansion. I think its essential that the streetcar gets expanded at least to Capitol Hill, NE OKC, and as far as 63rd and Western within the next decade.

I am torn though on whether or not to call this MAPS. Most of what is being talked about could be accomplished through a massive bond package.

I also hate to say it, but there are some parts of OKC that will never be revitalized and the city is better off as a whole not throwing money at those areas for the sake of getting votes, because that's less money for parts of the city that could really benefit.

However you would be wrong to say that the entire south side will never be revitalized. That said, it's not about replacing lower-income minorities with gentrifiers. The community that lives on the south side deserves place-based strategies as well, through which we can improve lives and the south side could be revitalized in place, and not on paper. It's time to rethink the goals of revitalization if we're really serious about it, and I think a lot of words get bandied about, but they all simply refer to the act of investing public resources into an area to better it.

Your original text is in bold, and my responses are in red.


Absolutely nothing in the MAPS charter or promotional materials on anything else says it's for the inner city. Are you really going to make the argument that MAPS was never about downtown? You should just let us know, because if so, it's not even worth arguing over. People who live in separate realities won't ever see eye to eye and that's just the way that cookie crumbles.

"The $350 million sales tax-funded initiative was created to revitalize Downtown (including an area of empty warehouses), improve Oklahoma City’s national image and provide new and upgraded cultural, sports, recreation, entertainment and convention facilities. "

https://www.okc.gov/maps3/mapshistory.html

There is also nothing in the MAPS charter about the PROJECTS themselves, so I'm not sure you really want to use the charter as evidence of anything.

I already gave you good reasons to spend money in those wards... Are they less deserving of sidewalks and public transportation and parks? Yes, they are "less deserving" of amenities that inner city neighborhoods don't even have. Sidewalks and public transportation going where? It's literally beyond my understanding how anyone wouldn't want those connected to something, and to go where the need is. The need for this is not Ward 8 or Ward 4, sorry.

You can't say, "I'm tired of seeing low-income folks walking in the street and traipsing through yards on Western Avenue, so I'm going to go build some sidewalks on Western north of Memorial Road! Problem solved!

I'm not talking about where previous opposition came from... I'm talking about the current reality of organized political opposition and the ability to effectively kill any MAPS votes by mobilizing a base of people large enough make the difference, as public turnout is always so low. You just keep reiterating yourself. You have a good point but it's misguided bc while there is opposition, it's not on the north side. It's on the south side. That was a huge trend that everyone had to notice after MAPS 3 passed. You don't get the south side on board by dispersing MAPS dollars 5 to 3 in favor of the north side, assuming that Meg Salyer isn't going to spend her $62 million south of the river (which is a safe assumption as CTP and the Linwood corridor make more sense).

I really wish people were more thoughtful. There is nuance to this kind of stuff. This isn't a pizza that's already sliced up for everyone. MAPS will lose support from people who actually want urban revitalization and are tired of being strung along to support everyone else's goals by theirs.

Why should Ward 8 and Ward 5 get "an equal share" of MAPS dollars when the lower-income inner city neighborhoods NEVER get an equal share of anything other than CDBG? Look at where all of our subsidy goes - downtown, Memorial Road, Council Road, Northwest Expressway, etc. The desire to make MAPS work for neighborhoods doesn't mean there is a desire to make MAPS do equally nothing for ALL neighborhoods. You can't have a compromise built on inequity.

I am literally incensed by the idiocy of this approach. It is literally an affront to anyone working to actually revitalize neighborhoods that need it and I hope that this is not taken seriously.

As a reminder, there will be a big general obligation bond that may be voted on concurrently with MAPS 4 next year.

Some streets and infrastructure will be covered but even with half a billion and a big G.O. Bond, we won't come close to touching all the needed sidewalks, bus shelters, lighting and just basics that the huge majority of this city is lacking.

I find it embarrassing and even shameful to see someone in a wheelchair going down Classen because there is no sidewalk (witnessed this several times). I also saw a blind school-aged kid walking in the street on Western near 23rd, banging his cane against the curb. Just minutes later, I saw a young mother with her stroller in the street with a toddler trailing behind. It made my stomach hurt.

And this is in the areas that are supposed to now be much improved. Take a little trip to the NE side or Capitol Hill or even big parts of NW OKC.

This is tax money paid by everyone with the fundamental idea of improving ALL of OKC, not just the core. That was the original mission and remains to this day.

I want to see a metro-wide BRT network with dedicated lanes in some spots.

Well darn. I was just getting all excited about these ideas and then a few negative comments dampened my enthusiasm. I don't necessarily mind criticism but not when it is caustic, overly critical and ridicules ideas of well intentioned citizens.

Not a good idea to hand out = money to all wards. I think it should be done by income level. The wards with the lowest income levels prob. need the most help. Far north and south OKC don't need near as much help as the central areas as they are doing just fine. Use the money in the areas that need the most help. But handing 62 mil to every ward is an unfair process IMO and would not be the best use of the money.

Just to be clear, nothing will be handed out.

Most likely, there would be a city-wide sidewalk initiative -- for example -- and each ward would get a good chunk of that.

Some wards may need more sidewalks, some may need more lighting or bus shelters or bike lanes or parks...

There seems to be the misconception that there will be a $62 million check cut to each councilperson and they'll have some sort of slush fund.

Just like in all MAPS, there will be specific projects with budgets and oversight committees.

As a reminder, there will be a big general obligation bond that may be voted on concurrently with MAPS 4 next year.

Some streets and infrastructure will be covered but even with half a billion and a big G.O. Bond, we won't come close to touching all the needed sidewalks, bus shelters, lighting and just basics that the huge majority of this city is lacking.

I find it embarrassing and even shameful to see someone in a wheelchair going down Classen because there is no sidewalk (witnessed this several times). I also saw a blind school-aged kid walking in the street on Western near 23rd, banging his cane against the curb. Just minutes later, I saw a young mother with her stroller in the street with a toddler trailing behind. It made my stomach hurt.

And this is in the areas that are supposed to now be much improved. Take a little trip to the NE side or Capitol Hill or even big parts of NW OKC.

This is tax money paid by everyone with the fundamental idea of improving ALL of OKC, not just the core. That was the original mission and remains to this day.

I agree but you need to decide are we doing just downtown (no, we agree there), all of the city, or something in between? ALL of OKC isn't the same as the little trip you recommended to Capitol Hill, NE OKC, and parts of NW OKC. I agree that is where the need is.

I would be in favor of "MAPS 4 Neighborhoods" apportioned to each ward proportionately based on low-income residents. That's not the only thing that would work, but at the end of the day, this absolutely has to have some guiding mission AND specific qualifying standards. There HAS to be a strategy about where we invest. All wards equal is NOT a strategy.

By the way, here's why in the past we focused on downtown: It is neither north nor south. Downtown is everyone's, and actually, when jobs are moving north, strengthening jobs downtown benefits the south side and all other sides of town equally.

Also, is downtown working for everyone? Most of the investment has been all energy headquarters (great basket in which to put all our eggs) and housing. Has anything been left behind, perhaps? What about these bike "lanes" that the latest edition of VeloCity brags about? Did VeloCity suddenly become a publication for another city that has bike lanes, because I was confused by this. Especially considering the chamber's advocacy role in actually uprooting the recently-finished bike lanes on Walker because of the multiple new parking garages. But just read VeloCity for more about how pro-bike they are and the amazing abundance of bike infrastructure that should make someone want to move to OKC and bike!

All wards are not equal in terms of each project.

As stated, some may need a bigger percentage of sidewalks, others may need park improvements.

The idea is that all wards deserve an equal share of the pie although how they use it -- within the pre-approved categories -- will vary by need and what better way to determine that than by the people who actually live in these areas?

I'm confused as to what way that is.

What overarching public need is MAPS for Neighborhoods trying to address?

Reminder that the next MAPS 4 meeting is tonight ...

I'd just like to gently point out that these are not "MAPS 4" meetings. These are "MAPS for a particular group's agenda" meetings.

Every MAPS has been "for neighborhoods." What would your neighborhood be like if it weren't for MAPS, MAPS for Kids, MAPS 3? It's completely disingenuous to say that any part of MAPS' success has been at the "expense" of any particular neighborhood or neighborhoods.

MAPS and its various incarnations have worked because they have given us large, game-changing debt-free public projects / amenities that in turn attract private investment and people / talent that allow our companies and businesses to grow so we can, you know, have better jobs 'n stuff.

^

For what it's worth, no one involved in this is claiming neighborhoods haven't benefited.

I'd encourage everyone to listen to that podcast I posted before rushing to judgement; or better yet listen then go to the next meeting.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/f7/cc/0d/f7cc0da4a4a4d84a27ecb361cff0c129.jpghttps://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/43/6e/23/436e2345af7e7cd7e0538e36e99425df.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/10/01/89/100189211012dd6fbd0d9f8ef0f81b56.jpg https://www.portlandoregon.gov/shared/cfm/image.cfm?id=483905

Keep this process simple... Give those Wards the money ($62. 5 million) and let them decide what they want to do with it. If they want to pave their streets & side walks in cobblestone, go for it.

Those Wards who need or want to invest in sidewalks, boardwalks, neighborhood planters, lighted hood streetscape or an elaborate peer across the creek with a spillover--let them decide.

The City can take the other $400 million & decide if they want to expand streetcar transit & canal river walk, spruce up the south banks of the Oklahoma River with a Skydance Tower to complement the Skydance Bridge (just ideas).

Let's not turn this process into a damsels-in-distress living in melancholy waiting on a government WIC food voucher.

You know your neighborhood better than any outsiders. Let's the individual Wards (neighborhoods) along with their counsilmember vet through this process with their own creativity.

Those pictures are all examples of "place making". What place are they going to make in each Ward?

I like the idea of sidewalks everywhere, that would be a significant quality of life increase for everyone, the poor on up.

I'm a bit less in favor of each ward getting a chuck of cash to spend as they will. Sounds like a great way to potentially waste 500 million dollars. Just because someone lives in an area it doesn't mean they have the slightly clue what would be good for that area. Residence does not equal local expertise, and it definitely doesn't mean sound financial management.

Just to be clear, there is absolutely no talk of giving each ward an allotment of discretionary funds.

Rather, it would be more like:

$100 million for sidewalks
$100 million for bike lanes and trails
$100 million for parks
$100 million for schools
$100 million for mass transit

Then, each ward would get $62 million worth of those things and the percentages by category would vary as needed.

The people in each ward may get a say in what they want more of and less of, but I doubt it would go much farther than that.


I'm just using this as a broad example to steer away from some of the concerns expressed about how MAPS funds may end being used.

Those pictures are all examples of "place making". What place are they going to make in each Ward?

What examples would you suggest?

Just examples of what some wards may want to do with their allocation.

Now, you could give each Ward a minimum of $50 million x8 ($400 million total) and allocate $100 million according to needs assessment, population and/or sq. mile areas in those wards...

...or whatever formula used.

just to be clear, there is absolutely no talk of giving each ward an allotment of discretionary funds.

Rather, it would be more like:

$100 million for sidewalks
$100 million for bike lanes and trails
$100 million for parks
$100 million for schools
$100 million for mass transit

then, each ward would get $62 million worth of those things and the percentages by category would vary as needed.

The people in each ward may get a say in what they want more of and less of, but i doubt it would go much farther than that.


I'm just using this as a broad example to steer away from some of the concerns expressed about how maps funds may end being used.

Got it!

I like the idea of sidewalks everywhere, that would be a significant quality of life increase for everyone, the poor on up.

I'm a bit less in favor of each ward getting a chuck of cash to spend as they will. Sounds like a great way to potentially waste 500 million dollars. Just because someone lives in an area it doesn't mean they have the slightly clue what would be good for that area. Residence does not equal local expertise, and it definitely doesn't mean sound financial management.

What does?

At least the wards/neighborhoods would be the one's to waste it; it's their money. Doesn't mean that you totally disregard the experts. Would hope that some levels of expertise would be used to advise & counsel each wards' preliminary drafts--for what the funds could or couldn't be used.

The main theme is getting the people within those wards involved in the wants & needs process; they'll overwhelmingly approve a model in which they have input vs. Mother Hen knows best.

I would prefer if the money were allocated in a way where the closer you were to downtown, the more money you got. There are wealthy neighborhoods, and poor neighborhoods, that shouldn't get a single dime of MAPS 4 money. It isn't about being equal. It's about maximizing our investment in our city.

We shouldn't be spending any MAPS money up on NW 150th. I don't care if they need sidewalks or not. It's too far away from the center of the city. It would be a drop in the bucket and people would never even notice it. I agree with Spartan here -- this is a good way to waste $500 million.

What we should do is spend money on increasing connectivity to downtown. Let's extend the streetcar down into the Capitol Hill area, and then up to 23rd and OCU. Put two pedestrian bridges over the river. Expand the sidewalks so that they start in downtown and go out from there. We want a continuous connection the entire way.

Jacksonville tried this very thing and for the most part it was a large waste of money. We got a couple of large capital projects out of it (new County Courthouse, downtown baseball stadium, Veterans Memorial Arena, and downtown Library) - but the rest just went to subsidizing sprawl...which all ready takes a disproportionate share of subsidies and tax resources.

COJ.net - Better Jacksonville Plan (http://www.coj.net/departments/public-works/better-jacksonville-plan)

I would prefer if the money were allocated in a way where the closer you were to downtown, the more money you got. There are wealthy neighborhoods, and poor neighborhoods, that shouldn't get a single dime of MAPS 4 money. It isn't about being equal. It's about maximizing our investment in our city.

We shouldn't be spending any MAPS money up on NW 150th. I don't care if they need sidewalks or not. It's too far away from the center of the city. It would be a drop in the bucket and people would never even notice it. I agree with Spartan here -- this is a good way to waste $500 million.

What we should do is spend money on increasing connectivity to downtown. Let's extend the streetcar down into the Capitol Hill area, and then up to 23rd and OCU. Put two pedestrian bridges over the river. Expand the sidewalks so that they start in downtown and go out from there. We want a continuous connection the entire way.
Well if you want nw 150th to keep voting for maps it might be a good idea to throw them a bone once in a while. There's political realities to deal with other then everything just being #urbanism. If you want maps 5, don't create a revolt in maps 4.

Well if you want nw 150th to keep voting for maps it might be a good idea to throw them a bone once in a while. There's political realities to deal with other then everything just being #urbanism. If you want maps 5, don't create a revolt in maps 4.

Yes and no. I voted specifically for Stonecipher because the one 15 minute conversation I had with him I believed that he got that a strong core lifted the entire city, and he talked to me about he and his wife as ward 8 residents spent a lot of time in the inner city taking advantage of amenities down there that my wife and I also enjoyed.

Would I love some more stuff up here? Sure. However, I work down the street from the boathouses, and I love that all that stuff is right down the street from my work.

If you add the TIF dollars to the Maps projects that is an enormous amount of money directed at one area of town - north of the river. It is unrealistic to keep expecting individuals to continue to vote dollars away from their self-interest for the benefit of a small portion of the city.

If you add the TIF dollars to the Maps projects that is an enormous amount of money directed at one area of town - north of the river. It is unrealistic to keep expecting individuals to continue to vote dollars away from their self-interest for the benefit of a small portion of the city.

This is ridiculous.

1) It is very much in their self-interest to have a strong core for the city. It makes the city significantly more competitive for new business and new residents, as well as giving the city a stronger economy.

2) While downtown is a small part of the city, area-wise, it is the single most significant part of the city. It is also the part that is shared by all of us.

In your opinion.

In your opinion.

And my opinion.

Just because it is endlessly repeated on this site that downtown is the most significant part of the city and that it is the one part shared by us all, doesn't mean it is true. This is an opinion not a fact.

Just because it is endlessly repeated on this site that downtown is the most significant part of the city and that it is the one part shared by us all, doesn't mean it is true. This is an opinion not a fact.
That just depends on what your definition of significant is. I don't remember anyone using that word in describing downtown other than saying " It makes the city significantly more competitive for new business and new residents, as well as giving the city a stronger economy."

I don't know how you can argue realistically with that statement.

That is my point. it depends on the criteria selected By the way, I used the other poster's phrasing. Maps is a city wide tax. Shouldn't other parts of the city expect at some point to see some investment as well? How much is enough for the downtown area? .

Yes and no. I voted specifically for Stonecipher because the one 15 minute conversation I had with him I believed that he got that a strong core lifted the entire city, and he talked to me about he and his wife as ward 8 residents spent a lot of time in the inner city taking advantage of amenities down there that my wife and I also enjoyed.

Would I love some more stuff up here? Sure. However, I work down the street from the boathouses, and I love that all that stuff is right down the street from my work.
No, just yes.

People vote in their own self interest. You live in the most individualistic society in the history of the world. It's somewhat foolish to assume just because you were swayed everyone else was. If you want a maps 5, maps 4 needs to pass and right now the push behind is hey we've helped foot the bill we'd like some investment too.

Just because it is endlessly repeated on this site that downtown is the most significant part of the city and that it is the one part shared by us all, doesn't mean it is true. This is an opinion not a fact.
This site seems to think opinion and fact are like tomato tomato depending on what side of the fence you're on.

This is ridiculous.

1) It is very much in their self-interest to have a strong core for the city. It makes the city significantly more competitive for new business and new residents, as well as giving the city a stronger economy.

2) While downtown is a small part of the city, area-wise, it is the single most significant part of the city. It is also the part that is shared by all of us.

Most of the jobs aren't downtown. Most of the people don't live downtown. Most of the tax base isn't downtown. Significant, yes. So is the tail on a dog.

Remember, fully half of MAPS 4 will still go to the traditional downtown-centered projects. $500 MM isn't much less than all of MAPS 3, which was $777 MM.

BTW, what are the downtown projects people want for MAPS 4?

What overarching public need is MAPS for Neighborhoods trying to address?

I see from the lasts few posts the objective is clearly to grease everyones hand. I am shocked to learn that the resident fake Republicans want their fair share of pork. Shocked I tell you - shocked. We build massive freeways for the suburbanites, miles and miles of streets, far-flung police and fire stations, expand water treatment facilities so they can have a yard, subsides their retail, live with earthquakes so they can drive 40 miles to work, bailout their automaker, live (or die) with pollution from cars, deal with abandonded properties as sprawl marches on, constantly build new schools because heaven forbid someone attend the same school as their parents, pay more for auto insurance because many of you suck at driving, dedicate large portions of the core to parking your vehicles, spend millions in interest on bonds so you can have all that NOW....and now you want MAPS dollars just to be fair. That takes some major chonies.

And I won't even mention the billions in taxpayer subsides that go to low wage employees so people living in +$300,000 houses can buy cheap junk at Walmart.

Remember, fully half of MAPS 4 will still go to the traditional downtown-centered projects. $500 MM isn't much less than all of MAPS 3, which was $777 MM.

BTW, what are the downtown projects people want for MAPS 4?

Streetcar expansion, expand the Santa Fe station to hopefully include the current Cox Center, finish out the river improvements (wind screens, grandstands), Expand the canal, new, small soccer stadium capable of expansion.

... blah blah blah I hate suburbanites and sprawl...

We get it.

Remember, fully half of MAPS 4 will still go to the traditional downtown-centered projects. $500 MM isn't much less than all of MAPS 3, which was $777 MM.

BTW, what are the downtown projects people want for MAPS 4?

Actually, I would like to see all of MAPS 4 go to commuter rail. It will cost that much to create a line between Edmond and Norman. And, I think it will have a very salutory effect on neighborhoods near stops, stimulating significant private development at those "nodes". I would like to see our next bond issue address sidewalks. Just my opinion. I will likely vote for MAPS no matter what plans are proposed.