The problem is, putting "a little money into all areas" won't fix any of the problems you name. It's going to cost billions to replace that much sewer and water pipe, and repave that much road. Multiple billions.

Exactly. You could not fix up EVERY neighborhood. There isn't enough money to do it and if you try, it would make no impact whatsoever. In the end, a decision will have to be made as to which neighborhoods are important enough to the city to warrant large-scale public investment. I agree with mkjeeves that the suburbs collectively have made downtown what it is, but Teo is right in that some areas are too far gone to be worth the amount of investment it would take to revive them if it could even be done at all. Supporters of sprawl need to focus on how to prevent today's best suburbs from going the way of PC North in 20 years (and NW 39th in 40 years).

In addition, I also don't believe a MAPS package should be passed to do things the city should already be doing. For instance, expanding public transportation is a great use of the MAPS brand but fixing potholes and replacing sewer lines isn't.

In addition, I also don't believe a MAPS package should be passed to do things the city should already be doing. For instance, expanding public transportation is a great use of the MAPS brand but fixing potholes and replacing sewer lines isn't.


GO Bond

Why should some people in Deer Creek want to spend their tax dollars fixing up an area they will never go?

They also wouldn't be able to vote in a maps vote.

RE The racist thing, just to be clear:

Flight of the 50s and 60s and probably 70s was extremely overt racism and continued systemically racism (see Redlining, FHA loans, and THIS (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/) article)

Later subsequent flight became less and less overt racism (I don't like black people) and more and more systemic (my property values are not increasing quickly/they're plateauing or the classrooms are not as nice as they once were etc. etc). And today it has more to do with people not liking the poor than not liking black people…but a disproportionate amount of black people are poor due to systemic racism that began in the 1700s and has been poorly addressed as a national issue ever since, so it ends up with a similar outcome.

So, pahdz, you may not specifically racist, but you are playing part in a system that is. But we all do in various avenues of life, so I'm not knocking you or questioning you or anyone else's ethical fortitude. Just pointing out that as a society, we made our development decisions based on these types of factors, and the results have proven to be disastrous if not deserved considering the questionable ethics by which the greatest/silent generation made these decisions.

They also wouldn't be able to vote in a maps vote.

It would probably be splitting hairs, as he did say "some people." But, approx 60% of the student population/residents living in the Deer Creek school district, are actually in Ward 8, of Oklahoma City proper. This includes Gallardia, Lone Oak, Deer Creek Villages Etc..

RE The racist thing, just to be clear:

Flight of the 50s and 60s and probably 70s was extremely overt racism and continued systemically racism (see Redlining, FHA loans, and THIS (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/) article)

Later subsequent flight became less and less overt racism (I don't like black people) and more and more systemic (my property values are not increasing quickly/they're plateauing or the classrooms are not as nice as they once were etc. etc). And today it has more to do with people not liking the poor than not liking black people…but a disproportionate amount of black people are poor due to systemic racism that began in the 1700s and has been poorly addressed as a national issue ever since, so it ends up with a similar outcome.

So, pahdz, you may not specifically racist, but you are playing part in a system that is. But we all do in various avenues of life, so I'm not knocking you or questioning you or anyone else's ethical fortitude. Just pointing out that as a society, we made our development decisions based on these types of factors, and the results have proven to be disastrous if not deserved considering the questionable ethics by which the greatest/silent generation made these decisions.

Since we're on the subject...charter schools, which have selective enrollment, are shown to have disproportional white/minority ratios compared to their counterparts in the same areas. What's our new downtown elementary?

So subsidize and gentrify an urban area making it largely unavailable to the poor and many minorities, a magnet for white flight, and drop a charter school in the middle of it and then tell everyone else how they are part of a racist system.

Your words:


Downtown proper, no. The inner-loop, yes. People who would have otherwise normally invested in a home in the PC North area, now have an option to invest somewhere South and East of the May and NW Expressway because of how quickly everything is improving. Homes can be comparable per square foot, and the difference is that many homes on the NW side are 1. On the decline 2. Stagnant in value and 3. Far away from amenities that are continuing to develop in the core, particularly as it pertains to entertainment.

Even 5 years ago, I'm not sure that your average OKC citizen really understood the value of living closer in, even if they're not living in downtown proper. Now it is a legitimate pull against people who might have otherwise chosen a more suburban lifestyle. @ 32nd and Villa, you frequently have better options, especially if you don't have kids or don't have to worry about their school district. Anybody who bought specifically for the district is white-flighting it.

I am pretty sure Rex is quite diverse, from the friends of ours who have kids there.

As downtown gets more housing with kids? May not be as diverse.

Well, MAPS isn't going to fix 300 years of racism. Sorry.

I'd say MAPS is one tool in the box for improving the city. And as the saying goes, when you have a hammer... Unfortunately, in this instance, the problems with the neighborhoods aren't nails. There's a lot of stuff that has to happen to fix NW 10th and Council, but just throwing $20 million down the drain over there won't do it.

It's not the MAPS money that revitalized downtown. That wasn't enough. It's all the private investment that followed. I don't think spending a small amount all over the city is going to do the same amount of good.

They also wouldn't be able to vote in a maps vote.

When you see me say "Deer Creek", please interpret that as "generic snooty white neighborhood".

Since we're on the subject...charter schools, which have selective enrollment, are shown to have disproportional white/minority ratios compared to their counterparts in the same areas. What's our new downtown elementary?

So subsidize and gentrify an urban area making it largely unavailable to the poor and many minorities, a magnet for white flight, and drop a charter school in the middle of it and then tell everyone else how they are part of a racist system.

Your words:

Also my words:


So, pahdz, you may not specifically racist, but you are playing part in a system that is. But we all do in various avenues of life, so I'm not knocking you or questioning you or anyone else's ethical fortitude.

And furthermore, the game is different: In sprawl, there are always moving goal posts. In the 90s, if you were on the bottom side of middle class, and possibly even lower class, maybe you make a move to the PCN area because at the time it was seen as an incredibly desirable school. Maybe you even buy in the PCN area, because you work hard enough to afford it or make certain sacrifices so that your kids have a good school/home to grow up in…but along come the 2000s and PCN starts to fall off and you made this investment that is not appreciating, and putting your kids in a school that is not what you once thought it would be.

At least with a strong core the rules don't change midstream. The core is on an upward trajectory for the rest of time (unless downtown is nuked), because the core of the city is historically (save for the brief 50 year post WWII, American automobile era of sprawl development) always among the most valuable property in the city. The difference is if you can get ahold of a Gatewood home right now, it's not going to have a 30 year window of desirability like homes @ NW 50th and Meridian had or like NW 122nd and Rockwell is finishing out today.

Gentrification has its faults, and they will no doubt negatively affect the poor and minorities, but it won't be a tease to a better life the way that sprawl has been for many people from less fortunate circumstances trying to catch the American Dream that will never be a reality for them. Eventually OKC public schools will come around when the tax-base rejuvenates and that will greatly help out the large demographic base of blacks and latinos that currently attend these schools…especially on the south side of the metro which will not gentrify nearly as quickly.

Well, MAPS isn't going to fix 300 years of racism. Sorry.

It sure didn't. I had no expectations it would.




I'd say MAPS is one tool in the box for improving the city. And as the saying goes, when you have a hammer... Unfortunately, in this instance, the problems with the neighborhoods aren't nails. There's a lot of stuff that has to happen to fix NW 10th and Council, but just throwing $20 million down the drain over there won't do it.

It's not the MAPS money that revitalized downtown. That wasn't enough. It's all the private investment that followed. I don't think spending a small amount all over the city is going to do the same amount of good.

The best thing that's happened to the area over the decades is the private money spent from Council to Mac along I-40. The trails from 10th street north by Overholser are a great asset and get lots of use as well. That two or three mile stretch is a good example of spending that improved an area. Some people from my neighborhood and beyond walk and bike to it and some people from all over drive to it. And 10th has actually seen some improvements in recent years. I'm optimistic.

mkjeeves,

We can go round and round for the next two weeks on this subject, I'm sure. I feel like you perceive that I'm anti-investment in non-core parts of our city. The truth is I'm not. What I am against is wasteful use of tax money. To fix the box between I-40, Kilpatrick, NW 39th/Rte66, and I-44, we need so much money. Certainly not short of a $500M injection, and probably closer to $1B+ just to get STARTED. That area is one of 10 or so other boxes around the city that need this kind of money to fix. And after that injection, a far smaller number of people would be enjoying the fruits of this investment, than anything we make in the core of the city, especially downtown.

We all get to watch the Thunder, if not in the arena, on the television, and feel pride for our city. You helped build that with your sales tax money, and you deserve to feel that pride. You can go walk the canal, you'll be able to come enjoy the central park…and you're about as far away as the people @ Sunny Lane and SE 59th. If the city comes in and EDs the SW corner of MacArthur and invests $250M to urban retrofit this area, and then drops another $500M on connectivity to this urban center via a sidewalk system to various neighborhoods and transit, and another $250M on Parks and roads….the only people that benefit are the couple 10k that live in and around this area.

And would it be a bad way to spend our money? Not necessarily…but if I do live on SE 59th and Shields, and I don't get my areas retrofit project for another 25 years, why would I be okay with this?

But $50M going to that same 44/40/KTPK/R66 box…that's pissing money away. It will do effectively nothing to help out the residents of the area, let alone the citizens of OKC.

It sure didn't. I had no expectations it would.



The best thing that's happened to the area over the decades is the private money spent from Council to Mac along I-40. The trails from 10th street north by Overholser are a great asset and get lots of use as well. And 10th has actually seen some improvements in recent years. I'm optimistic.

Well, the best thing for your area, long term, is for the cycle of sprawl to stop. As long as "the" place to build new homes is on the outskirts of town, investment won't return to the 1960s-70s ring of development. Not enough to make the area nice again.

Downtown isn't the enemy of the suburbs. Future suburbs are the enemy of the suburbs.

The only good reasons I see to have a MAPS for Neighborhoods are these:

-If there are several, easily fixable, problems in multiple neighborhoods around the city
-If it satisfies the naysayers and boosts support for the next MAPS
-If it doesn't delay a regional mass transit system by too much

Tearing down those rat-hole apartments on 10th, burning them to the ground, and replacing them with a senior center or a public library might not be a bad idea. Just to get rid of them. Doing that for a half-dozen places all over town, and then throwing some money at sidewalks and trails, that might be okay. It's not going to generate a huge amount of revenue for the city. It won't be an investment that will pay off anywhere close to the Chesapeake Arena. But it might be a good idea to clean up some crap.

Neighborhoods aren't going to see anywhere close to the kind of investment that downtown got, or the return that downtown got. There are just too many neighborhoods. We've spread ourselves too thin.

When you see me say "Deer Creek", please interpret that as "generic snooty white neighborhood".

....and by "generic snooty white neighborhood," I assume you mean a community that consists of a high concentration of people of wealth, power, and political influence within our city? Just want to make sure I read you loud and clear.

Some MAPS projects will produce revenue; others will not.

We need to look at the overall MAPS scheme:


1. Improve the quality of life aspects which reflects a better image of Oklahoma City.
2. Private development growth has more than tripled the revenue invested.
3. Projects are debt-free upon completion.

More attractive our city becomes; the better chance to keep & retain the corporations we have; also to lure corporate divisions like the GE Research Center.

As our sales-tax base increases through growth; it generates more money to expand items like public safety & city services.

....and by "generic snooty white neighborhood," I assume you mean a community that consists of a high concentration of people of wealth, power, and political influence within our city? Just want to make sure I read you loud and clear.

Yeah, you got it.

My kids go to John Rex and we are pleased with the level of ethnic and socioeconomic diversity. I am a huge proponent of investing in public neighborhood schools, but after four years of doing just that with our neighborhood school we became frustrated that the needle was not moving largely due to powers outside of our control.

Just to clear up any misconception about charter schools...charter schools do not have "selective enrollment" as some of you might think:

OSCN Found Document:Eligible Students - Discrimination (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=104641)

Part of the problem with OKC's outer neighborhoods is that they don't have a gathering place/area. The appeal of the Plaza District, the Paseo, Capitol Hill, 23rd St. are the core of buildings suitable for retail that create a common area for people to gather and recreate. I see those same types of neighborhoods in Chicago making the area very desirable for homebuyers. It's great to walk to Southport, Wicker Park, Lincoln Park to shop, dine, listen to music. It recreates small town living in the city. Because of cars and shopping centers, newer(60s and newer) neighborhood don't have that restorable core that is so appealing nowadays. Perhaps there is a way to create something in a few selected neighborhoods to make a gathering place, be it a park with an adjacent public library, stop for streetcar or light rail that might generate some development to make a neighborhood more than simply where you sleep.

Part of the problem with OKC's outer neighborhoods is that they don't have a gathering place/area. The appeal of the Plaza District, the Paseo, Capitol Hill, 23rd St. are the core of buildings suitable for retail that create a common area for people to gather and recreate. I see those same types of neighborhoods in Chicago making the area very desirable for homebuyers. It's great to walk to Southport, Wicker Park, Lincoln Park to shop, dine, listen to music. It recreates small town living in the city. Because of cars and shopping centers, newer(60s and newer) neighborhood don't have that restorable core that is so appealing nowadays. Perhaps there is a way to create something in a few selected neighborhoods to make a gathering place, be it a park with an adjacent public library, stop for streetcar or light rail that might generate some development to make a neighborhood more than simply where you sleep.

That's some of what I've been advocating. Will they be perfect, no. (Is anything?) They could be tremendous assets though.

Just to clear up any misconception about charter schools...charter schools do not have "selective enrollment" as some of you might think:

OSCN Found Document:Eligible Students - Discrimination (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=104641)

I'm glad you set that straight. Poor choice of words on my part. Do you know if Rex has the same racial ratios as the district? I don't. And it's really irrelevant to this thread. However in many instances around the country that ends up not being the case for whatever reason. (I haven't studied it at great length. I'm not down on Rex. I'm sure it and everyone associated with it are great, non-racist people. Maybe we need a thread to talk about it or not. My kid is grown and while I'm concerned about the issue. It's not my soap box.)

The Racist History of the Charter School Movement | Alternet (http://www.alternet.org/education/racist-history-charter-school-movement)

That was part of the point. The real point was driven home by hoya though. Maps didn't and isn't going to fix the history of racism in the country and white flight from downtown to the burbs, from burb to burb or from burbs to downtowns. So when people bring it up as it relates to the burbs, it also relates to gentrified urban areas and it signals some people are running thin on relevant arguments.

I'm glad you set that straight. Poor choice of words on my part. Do you know if Rex has the same racial ratios as the district? I don't. And it's really irrelevant to this thread. However in many instances around the country that ends up not being the case for whatever reason. (I haven't studied it at great length. I'm not down on Rex. I'm sure it and everyone associated with it are great, non-racist people. Maybe we need a thread to talk about it or not.)

I do not have that data. What I do know is that, while Rex can take transfers from outside the boundaries (i.e., "white kids"), it cannot reject in-boundary children. So if there happens to be a large population of resident non-white students wanting in, then they have to be accepted. The only form of "discrimination" allowed by law is that which might be considered "reverse discrimination" under the statute (see heading C) in an attempt to better serve the underserved. I can also tell you that there are a lot of people/groups trying to use the charter process to help those in the most need. You might not hear much about it right now, but it's going on. Hopefully there will be success and we'll see a transformation of OKCPS in the very near future.

Any suburban shopping development can be retrofitted into a walkable gathering place. Here is one example:

http://www.bustler.net/images/gallery/reburbia_winners_04a.jpg

The problem with neighborhood-focused investment on a mass-scale in much of post-war developed OKC is that it's built on a very poor infrastructure foundation. As it's been mentioned in here before, most sprawling, auto-dependent development has been built on "bad bones."

For neighborhood placemaking efforts to succeed, they must be first initiated in areas with a (mostly) extant strong, interconnected street network. That style of public investment in areas that don't meet that criterion will fail to deliver the intended results. The only areas where I would vote/advocate MAPS undertake this type of investment is in the area market below:

11389

It's not a coincidence that successful MAPS (Bricktown, CBD) and non-MAPS (Plaza, Uptown, Paseo, Western) placemaking efforts all had an existing street grid in place to build off of. Effective sprawl repair at any scale outside of this boundary will require radical investment: purchasing perfectly good buildings, tearing them down, and building roads through them to connect the street network (not to mention zoning issues).

If we were bent on doing a MAPS 4 Neighborhoods, I'd vote that we'd focus on neighborhoods between 235 and 35 and south of the river north of S 44th. Those communities have large minority populations that have been passed up by much of the "urban core" reinvestment but have a strong built-environment foundation to work off of. Now, other potential capital MAPS efforts like lake/park/trail improvements, fixed transit, Zoo/Adventure District, AICCM, State Fairgrounds not located downtown may be better areas to focus on if we didn't want to just do more capital improvements downtown.

For neighborhood placemaking efforts to succeed, they must be first initiated in areas with a (mostly) extant strong, interconnected street network. That style of public investment in areas that don't meet that criterion will fail to deliver the intended results. The only areas where I would vote/advocate MAPS undertake this type of investment is in the area market below:



It's not a coincidence that successful MAPS (Bricktown, CBD) and non-MAPS (Plaza, Uptown, Paseo, Western) placemaking efforts all had an existing street grid in place to build off of. Effective sprawl repair at any scale outside of this boundary will require radical investment: purchasing perfectly good buildings, tearing them down, and building roads through them to connect the street network (not to mention zoning issues).

If we were bent on doing a MAPS 4 Neighborhoods, I'd vote that we'd focus on neighborhoods between 235 and 35 and south of the river north of S 44th. Those communities have large minority populations that have been passed up by much of the "urban core" reinvestment but have a strong built-environment foundation to work off of. Now, other potential capital MAPS efforts like lake/park/trail improvements, fixed transit, Zoo/Adventure District, AICCM, State Fairgrounds not located downtown may be better areas to focus on if we didn't want to just do more capital improvements downtown.

Almost everything north and west of what you've mapped for miles is on a connected grid. Look upthread at the map of 10th street from Midtown to Overholser. So is much of the city in other directions. These aren't one-way access gated areas.

I visited or drove through the Plaza district many times in the decades before it re-emerged as a place. (There was an electonics parts store there I frequented if I wasn't just passing through.) It didn't look all that much different than just about any three block section of NW 10th, a few mostly empty or run down buildings built on a strip with neighborhoods behind them.

^ That's pretty much more of the same, most of the neighborhoods get lip service and a plea for handing over their taxes to be spent in the center of the city.

I visited or drove through the Plaza district many times in the decades before it re-emerged as a place. (There was an electonics parts store there I frequented if I wasn't just passing through.) It didn't look all that much different than just about any three block section of NW 10th, a few mostly empty or run down buildings built on a strip with neighborhoods behind them.

I really don't think there is a lot of comparison between those two areas. First, compare the bones of the Plaza district and the Classen Ten Penn neighborhood surrounding it with NW 10th between Rockwell and Council. In the Plaza District, the homes are much older, on smaller lots, and there is a walkable, commercial focal point for the neighborhood. Far west NW 10th doesn't have that. There are a few first generation auto-oriented strip malls, lots of distressed apartment complexes that would be difficult to revitalize, and homes on fairly large lots. How do you fix that?

Secondly, the Plaza district required no MAPS subsidy to kick it off. The free market made it into what it has become because it was seen as desirable and as a great place to invest.

there is a walkable, commercial focal point for the neighborhood.

There wasn't 25 years ago and more of when I spoke. It was dead empty buildings, like any section of NW 10th. (The ones that are empty and not taken care of on 10th. There are some that are.)

Most of the housing stock in that district is post war (late 40s) and the streets in the neighborhoods are no more or less walkable than those off 10th. It was an early suburban commercial strip and housing.

It wasn't MAPS funding, but Plaza DID receive a bond-funded streetscape a little over a decade ago, which improved the sidewalk situation and honestly was the early tipping point for the district. The same thing happened in Automobile Alley and other areas. Streetscapes are the publicly-funded thing that can really bring an area to life, and signal growth and reinvestment. But they are best done where there is some worthwhile, dense building stock on the street. and MAPS is probably not the best vehicle for them but rather bond issues and other instruments.

I think the point is, the Plaza district took off on its own. For whatever reason, conditions there were better for revitalization than they are over on NW 10th.

Maybe the Plaza district just got lucky somehow. The Wheel of Fate turned and they came up a winner. Or... maybe the "bones" were better, and that's why it turned into a trendy, thriving district and NW 10th hasn't. Why do you think the Plaza district has improved?

Secondly, the Plaza district required no MAPS subsidy to kick it off. The free market made it into what it has become because it was seen as desirable and as a great place to invest.

Not exactly true. A multi-million dollar MAPS type streets type investment was made by the city. A business and community development organization was also created by the city. Zoning overlays and other city sponsored investments were made. Those investments established the springboard from which the free market has progressed.

Depending on which block, some of that stock is '20s and 30's. You don't have to go very far west or north and you are in the '40s and post war. (Still way inside the inner loop.) But that's pretty meaningless really.

They are somewhat older and many are charming.

Apologies. Mine took longer to type Urbanized. lol

Plaza applied for and received Main Street designation (no longer in place) through the Oklahoma Department of Commerce in the late Nineties. Lyric Theater and OCU lent support. THIS is what emboldened the City to do the streetscape; the City wants to support places where the neighborhood has joined together and has begun to invest in itself. They don't just come in and sprinkle magic dust on areas with no activity or neighborhood buy-in.

Once the streetscape was finished it emboldened DIY retailers/services like DNA Galleries, Collected Thread, Velvet Monkey, who recognized the potential but truly stuck out their necks to hang a shingle in a still-sketchy area. After that, real estate investors began to see the momentum and started to physically change the area and make deals with restaurant operators. ZERO of this part were City-funded. It also took YEARS. There is a perception that Plaza is an overnight success, but the effort truly began in the nineties and took lots of effort from lots of people. There wasn't a magic pill.

Plaza applied for and received Main Street designation (no longer in place) through the Oklahoma Department of Commerce in the late Nineties. Lyric Theater and OCU lent support. THIS is what emboldened the City to do the streetscape; the City wants to support places where the neighborhood has joined together and has begun to invest in itself. They don't just come in and sprinkle magic dust on areas with no activity or neighborhood buy-in.

Once the streetscape was finished it emboldened DIY retailers/services like DNA Galleries, Collected Thread, Velvet Monkey, who recognized the potential but truly stuck out their necks to hang a shingle in a still-sketchy area. After that, real estate investors began to see the momentum and started to physically change the area and make deals with restaurant operators. ZERO of this part were City-funded. It also took YEARS. There is a perception that Plaza is an overnight success, but the effort truly began in the nineties and took lots of effort from lots of people. There wasn't a magic pill.

There never is. Downtown has taken over $1 billion in public funding and decades.

I think for maps for neighborhoods to work it will take leadership and local involvement. That doesn't mean it has to be 100% instigated, planned, funding sourced like the Plaza district did. City leadership can be helpful on all counts.

True Urbanized. The point still remains that the city itself invested millions of dollars in supporting infrastructure. They have been the largest player in reviving the neighborhood from a financial standpoint. And you are right, Bond Issues are typically the best vehicle for the types of corridor improvements that the "Maps 4 Neighborhoods" folks seem to want to achieve.

That said, they have two chances with their "movement". Both the 2016 projected GO Bond vote and the potential 2017 Maps 4 vote.

There is no reason that lessons learned in the Plaza couldn't be applied elsewhere. The old downtown of Britton always intrigues me when I drive over to do work at Casady. Imagine if a commuter rail stop were placed there with Plaza type city investment.

Almost everything north and west of what you've mapped for miles is on a connected grid. Look upthread at the map of 10th street from Midtown to Overholser. So is much of the city in other directions. These aren't one-way access gated areas.

I visited or drove through the Plaza district many times in the decades before it re-emerged as a place. (There was an electonics parts store there I frequented if I wasn't just passing through.) It didn't look all that much different than just about any three block section of NW 10th, a few mostly empty or run down buildings built on a strip with neighborhoods behind them.

Except it's not a connected grid. Sure, there are many mile and half-mile arterial crossings, but those are not designed at a human scale, making them not designed for walkability. Contrast the walking distance between two houses almost equidistant to each other as the crow flies—the first in Classen-10-Penn and the second between Rockwell and Council. Notice the vast difference in time it takes to go from one to the other. In this example, not having an interconnected street grid more than quadruples the overall walking time.

11390

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The reason Plaza was able to jump back to life after a major investment by its community was solely due to the good bones of its interconnected street grid.

There is no reason that lessons learned in the Plaza couldn't be applied elsewhere. The old downtown of Britton always intrigues me when I drive over to do work at Casady. Imagine if a commuter rail stop were placed there with Plaza type city investment.

Britton is probably one of the only other places that has potential for this type of placemaking investment outside of OKC's (mostly) contiguous urban core street grid. The real longterm magic of connecting these types of places will be when the RTA is moving forward to connect the older, traditionally planned downtowns of Edmond, Yukon, Moore, and Norman,

Except it's not a connected grid. Sure, there are many mile and half-mile arterial crossings, but those are not designed at a human scale, making them not designed for walkability. Contrast the walking distance between two houses almost equidistant to each other as the crow flies—the first in Classen-10-Penn and the second between Rockwell and Council. Notice the vast difference in time it takes to go from one to the other. In this example, not having an interconnected street grid more than quadruples the overall walking time.

11390

11391

The reason Plaza was able to jump back to life after a major investment by its community was solely due to the good bones of its interconnected street grid.

Most of the area off 10th does not resemble your example for off NW 10th. Some of it does, some of it doesn't. Portland to May on the northside is almost exactly like your first photo for instance.

Will it be perfect? No. Not much is.

Most of the area off 10th does not resemble your example for off NW 10th. Some of it does, some of it doesn't. Portland to May on the northside is almost exactly like your first photo for instance.

Will it be perfect? No. Not much is.

Yea Portland to Meridian from 10th to 16th is in mostly good shape and the juxtaposition of OSU-OKC could be a strong anchor/catalyst. That's the only place in OKC-limits with potential for this type of investment west of 44/Hefner pkwy that I see though. Who knows, maybe even jumpstarting that area could encourage their surrounding communities to engage in a little tactical sprawl repair to make really great places.

It still goes back to the problem with picking and choosing "winner" neighborhoods for MAPS vs "losers" just because some people were lucky/savvy enough to purchase in places with a decent street grid. I truly believe a MAPS 4 Neighborhoods will either be a nonstarter for this reason or will be ultimately ineffective by spreading money too thin across areas that aren't built to support that type of investment to begin with.

Also, Bethany could probably engage in this type of investment independently given parts of their street grid, which would be valuable for the overall NW OKC community.

But maybe that's what MAPS 4 Neighborhoods should look like. Pick 4 places with underlying potential in 4 quadrants outside of the 44/40/235 core with resources to revitalize them and the beginnings of plans to connect them effectively with transit.


North: Old downtown Britton


East: JFK neighborhood east of OUHSC


South: Capitol Hill/SW 29th


West: Corbin Park by OSU-OKC


Core: Transit up Classen to 23rd or 50th and towards those 4 quadrants


A simultaneous investment in Bethany could be doubly beneficial for NW OKC.

Hoya's MAPS plan

The purpose of MAPS, as I see it, is to 1) improve the quality of life for citizens, 2) improve the economic health of the city, and 3) to move OKC forward to make it the city we want it to be in the future. Ideally every MAPS project should do all 3 of these. At a minimum, it should accomplish 2 of the 3. But at every step, we should keep in mind the third goal -- we should be constantly moving forward towards remaking the city into a better place to live. Every thing we do should make OKC of 30 years from now a much better place than OKC today.

With that in mind, here's my proposal for the next big MAPS. This doesn't necessarily have to be MAPS 4. We could allow the tax could lapse, we could use a MAPS 4 for some incremental improvements (expand streetcar to Chesapeake, tear down crappy apartments on 10th, build some sidewalks, etc). But this is my plan for the big one, the one that transforms OKC in a major way.

It is a combination of the traditional MAPS system, an agreement with neighboring cities, a set of municipal bonds, and a set of TIF programs. It would probably be the most aggressive capital spending project the metro area has ever undertaken. It is primarily transportation oriented, with funding and requirements for TOD.

The Plan:

A Regional Transit Authority has already been formed (in real life, not just in Hoyaworld), bringing OKC, Moore, Norman, Del City, MWC, and Edmond together to cooperate on this. Each of the cities would hold a MAPS-style election to get their share of money for the regional mass transit system. This is the plan that the city already seems to be moving forward on. We've seen the drawings with the colored lines going around the metro area, showing rail systems and rapid streetcar, etc. My plan adds on to this one.

Where mine goes farther is a series of bonds and an aggressive TIF program to ensure that these areas get the maximum benefit possible from the mass transit investment. Let's reinvest in our cities, and do it right. The bond money and the TIF money would fund building quality transit-oriented development at each rail stop. We don't want park and ride systems there. You shouldn't arrive at the Midwest City rail stop and see a massive parking lot there. Some structured parking would exist, but primarily we want a walkable area with shopping, housing, entertainment, offices, etc. These do not have to be incredibly large to begin with. Each city will set aside a certain area at each stop that will be dedicated for TOD.

So, each new stop will have the area within a certain distance (say, a 5 minute walk) rezoned so that it follows form-based codes. This will make sure that future development in the area creates the most benefit for the community. When private development takes off (and it will), there should be guidelines in place so developers know exactly what to build, and how to do it. Most suburban developers in this area really have no idea what we're looking for here. It will be a brand new experience for them and they need to have guidance and support.

Bond money will be used to install sidewalks, bike paths, and other types of infrastructure to connect existing neighborhoods to the train station, to help prepare the cities for the development that will follow. There are a lot of people who already live in these cities, and we should make it as easy as possible for them to get to the station without using a car. So any neighborhood within a mile of the station should have improvements to it that maximize the abilities of the people in it to get to the station. This might mean putting in pedestrian bridges over a creek that runs through the neighborhood. It might mean putting in street signs directing you to the station, with walk times and bike times listed. It might mean putting in better crosswalks on busy streets, or putting in a lot more sidewalks.

Bond money and TIF money will also be used to create, perhaps in partnership with a private developer, the first TOD along each stop. This does not have to be massive, but it has to be done right. I'd like to see at least 5 or 6 high-quality buildings (no EIFS) at each stop, each building 3 or 4 stories tall, in a small area around the stops, with shopping and offices, but primarily housing. This has the advantage of showing people exactly what they've paid for, exactly the type of development they can expect to see. In the coming years, all new construction within the 5 minute-walk area will follow the pattern. Each city can have its own architectural style and its own feel.

The point of all this is to push the city towards quality development as fast as we can. Slow progression puts the city at an economic disadvantage. For some areas, like Del City and Midwest City, this will be a big boost for them, raising the perception of the cities and bringing new, quality development. If living in the Del City TOD area means you can live in a cool townhouse that is a 2 minute walk from a lot of amenities, and you are right next to the streetcar that brings you to downtown, it elimnates some of the stigma that has come to be associated with that city (and as a Del City boy, I want that). It makes the city, at least the new TOD part, much more desirable. For Moore, Norman, and Edmond, it ensures that at least a portion of their growth will be in a small area, improving the tax base and reducing future tax burdens that come with sprawling growth.

But maybe that's what MAPS 4 Neighborhoods should look like. Pick 4 places with underlying potential in 4 quadrants outside of the 44/40/235 core with resources to revitalize them and the beginnings of plans to connect them effectively with transit.


North: Old downtown Britton


East: JFK neighborhood east of OUHSC


South: Capitol Hill/SW 29th


West: Corbin Park by OSU-OKC


Core: Transit up Classen to 23rd or 50th and towards those 4 quadrants


A simultaneous investment in Bethany could be doubly beneficial for NW OKC.

This would be a good idea and is something I could get behind because those areas have potential and existing focal points from which development could spring. I agree about old downtown Britton. Its a gem waiting to be rediscovered and revitalized.

I shared this upthread:

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This is a perfect example of an interrupted street grid. And the the thing is, the problem is not necessarily that NW 111th St./Ct don't connect…It's that they are blocked off. The only way to really make sure that your urbanization efforts make a lasting impact is to tear down the homes at the end of the Cul-de-Sacs so that there is access to the larger developments. In that way, you could maybe solve the NW corner of this intersection without tearing down any commercial buildings, but the NE would require some major overhaul.

Here is a look at NW 16th around MacArthur

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Marked are connectivity issues. These issues need to be resolved if we're going to invest in the area, and they're not going to be resolved by individual land owners. Someone will need to get control of major points in this area and knock lots of buildings down and put lots of connective infrastructure in.

There is certainly an opportunity for investment, but again…here's the issue: This is a $150M - $300M project…That's outside the scope of not only MAPS, but even a Bond issue. And nobody will care about this.

This is a private sector problem.

Hoya's MAPS plan

The purpose of MAPS, as I see it, is to 1) improve the quality of life for citizens, 2) improve the economic health of the city, and 3) to move OKC forward to make it the city we want it to be in the future. Ideally every MAPS project should do all 3 of these. At a minimum, it should accomplish 2 of the 3. But at every step, we should keep in mind the third goal -- we should be constantly moving forward towards remaking the city into a better place to live. Every thing we do should make OKC of 30 years from now a much better place than OKC today.

With that in mind, here's my proposal for the next big MAPS. This doesn't necessarily have to be MAPS 4. We could allow the tax could lapse, we could use a MAPS 4 for some incremental improvements (expand streetcar to Chesapeake, tear down crappy apartments on 10th, build some sidewalks, etc). But this is my plan for the big one, the one that transforms OKC in a major way.

It is a combination of the traditional MAPS system, an agreement with neighboring cities, a set of municipal bonds, and a set of TIF programs. It would probably be the most aggressive capital spending project the metro area has ever undertaken. It is primarily transportation oriented, with funding and requirements for TOD.

The Plan:

A Regional Transit Authority has already been formed (in real life, not just in Hoyaworld), bringing OKC, Moore, Norman, Del City, MWC, and Edmond together to cooperate on this. Each of the cities would hold a MAPS-style election to get their share of money for the regional mass transit system. This is the plan that the city already seems to be moving forward on. We've seen the drawings with the colored lines going around the metro area, showing rail systems and rapid streetcar, etc. My plan adds on to this one.

Where mine goes farther is a series of bonds and an aggressive TIF program to ensure that these areas get the maximum benefit possible from the mass transit investment. Let's reinvest in our cities, and do it right. The bond money and the TIF money would fund building quality transit-oriented development at each rail stop. We don't want park and ride systems there. You shouldn't arrive at the Midwest City rail stop and see a massive parking lot there. Some structured parking would exist, but primarily we want a walkable area with shopping, housing, entertainment, offices, etc. These do not have to be incredibly large to begin with. Each city will set aside a certain area at each stop that will be dedicated for TOD.

So, each new stop will have the area within a certain distance (say, a 5 minute walk) rezoned so that it follows form-based codes. This will make sure that future development in the area creates the most benefit for the community. When private development takes off (and it will), there should be guidelines in place so developers know exactly what to build, and how to do it. Most suburban developers in this area really have no idea what we're looking for here. It will be a brand new experience for them and they need to have guidance and support.

Bond money will be used to install sidewalks, bike paths, and other types of infrastructure to connect existing neighborhoods to the train station, to help prepare the cities for the development that will follow. There are a lot of people who already live in these cities, and we should make it as easy as possible for them to get to the station without using a car. So any neighborhood within a mile of the station should have improvements to it that maximize the abilities of the people in it to get to the station. This might mean putting in pedestrian bridges over a creek that runs through the neighborhood. It might mean putting in street signs directing you to the station, with walk times and bike times listed. It might mean putting in better crosswalks on busy streets, or putting in a lot more sidewalks.

Bond money and TIF money will also be used to create, perhaps in partnership with a private developer, the first TOD along each stop. This does not have to be massive, but it has to be done right. I'd like to see at least 5 or 6 high-quality buildings (no EIFS) at each stop, each building 3 or 4 stories tall, in a small area around the stops, with shopping and offices, but primarily housing. This has the advantage of showing people exactly what they've paid for, exactly the type of development they can expect to see. In the coming years, all new construction within the 5 minute-walk area will follow the pattern. Each city can have its own architectural style and its own feel.

The point of all this is to push the city towards quality development as fast as we can. Slow progression puts the city at an economic disadvantage. For some areas, like Del City and Midwest City, this will be a big boost for them, raising the perception of the cities and bringing new, quality development. If living in the Del City TOD area means you can live in a cool townhouse that is a 2 minute walk from a lot of amenities, and you are right next to the streetcar that brings you to downtown, it elimnates some of the stigma that has come to be associated with that city (and as a Del City boy, I want that). It makes the city, at least the new TOD part, much more desirable. For Moore, Norman, and Edmond, it ensures that at least a portion of their growth will be in a small area, improving the tax base and reducing future tax burdens that come with sprawling growth.

This is massive and would be difficult to pass for that reason. But let's say that the idea could be entertained: The West side of the city is pretty well ignored in all this given that none of the rail lines run West of Classen.

Do you have any ideas for connectivity to the West?


Also, I think this is a plan worth pursuing maybe in 5 to 10 years. I really think that we need to see Wheeler in action, and if Wheeler is done right, I think it can be the poster-child for this type of initiative.

I think there should be a connection to Will Rogers Airport, but right now that isn't in the RTA plan.

I think there should be a connection to Will Rogers Airport, but right now that isn't in the RTA plan.

I just don't see how we could essentially completely ignore the West half of the city and get this to pass.

We'd need at least 2 nodes, probably connected via BRT between I-40 and Memorial West of I-44. I could maybe see nodes being built near all 3 PC High Schools: 50th & Meridian, Rockwell & Hefner-or-122nd, 23rd and Council.

I think 50th and Meridian has a particularly decent opportunity because of Dolese Park being right there. It would certainly be a prime candidate for retrofitting. The connectivity there is also not quite as shoddy as it is when you start getting more to the West.

I'd be fine with that, but I know it's not in the current real-world plan. Are there rail lines already existing to support those areas?

I'd be fine with that, but I know it's not in the current real-world plan. Are there rail lines already existing to support those areas?

They don't go very far north (between Reno and 10th) and there are tracks that run out by the Airport (Pacific Union tracks, I believe). I think it would need to be less about the exact form of connectivity, but that connectivity exists. I think you would have to do BRT in order to avoid an obscene expense to start laying tracks north from the Union tracks up Merdian and Rockwell.

Once OKC gets the street car up to 63rd/Western we can rework Embark routes 005, 007, 008, 010 that serve the NW to provide transfer service (via streetcar) to downtown by creating major connectivity points along Classen (probably 23rd and NW Expressway), we can then funnel everything North of 39th to a sort of hub located at Expressway, and everything south of 39th either directly downtown via 10th or to a 23rd and Classen hub.

I guess the point is, the biggest problem is that OKC has a major lack of places. OKC needs to identify 10 to 20 intersections outside of downtown where we are going to funnel our public resources, whether direct or incentivized. What you're talking about though is probably a 15-20 year $2.5B - $5B package that heavily incentivizes private dollars to certain areas.

I can't really speak to the other 3 quadrants of the city, because I'm just not familiar enough with them, but as I see it, here are your most important, non-NW Expressway intersections on the NW side outside of the Grand Boulevard Loop:

Britton and May (Lake Connectivity)
122nd and May
23rd and Meridian
50th and Meridian
39th and MacArthur
Hefner and Rockwell
Reno and Council

I'm sure you could put in some more but choosing 2 or 3 out of just that list would be pretty hard, and it goes to show how difficult this process will be over the next 25 to 50 years to rethink OKC. And that's just one quadrant, although probably the most active.

We could certainly look at getting some of that land out of our hands and handing it over to The Village, Bethany, and Warr Acres, but those 3 communities have to be allies in redeveloping the city.

This is a private sector problem.

Indeed. If private shopping center developers saw the economic potential of retrofitting suburbia there could be a neighborhood center within one mile of every neighborhood in the city.

Indeed. If private shopping center developers saw the economic potential of retrofitting suburbia there could be a neighborhood center within one mile of every neighborhood in the city.

As Montreal said…it's not that simple.

There simply aren't enough bodies nor enough connectivity to ever make it something that works all across the city.

Better than a bunch of shopping centers would probably be neighborhoods full of mini-farms. You sit on a 1/4 acre land…do something with it.

That's probably the best way to beef up the micro-economies of these communities, and potentially land values as well.

I think one of the big errors made in Denver, which has a very nice rail system still under construction in some places, is that they chose to build the system entirely on their own. The result has been nice rail stations with totally inconvenient parking. Had The RTD engaged the suburbs and developers, tens of millions could have been saved. Developers could build huge urban projects around the stations while being required to pay for stations and parking. This is also how it has been done overseas. Developers pay for development rights in return for lease payments for the land. The lease payments pay system operating costs and keep fares very low. OKC doesnt have the density but a moderated version of this should be possible.

MAPS 4 Neighborhoods:


should include something for all eight wards in Oklahoma City. More than 40 - 50% of what we generate from a MAPS 4 initiative should focus on the neighborhood agenda with each ward deciding what it wants to do with its equally distributed allocation. The other 50 - 60% should target a city-wide focus like a future transit base for light & commuter rail; along with upgrades of existing MAPS' improvement projects'--if needed. Example: Expanded Bricktown canal & street car routes--to name a few. We need to continue with the MAPS theme of no less that 7 projects.

OKC should strive for improvement. There are areas within out city that need attention. Attention that could be contagious for individual homeowners to take note of their neighbors; begin to embark on something of their own.

You don't need to let the MAPS brand expire; that would signal that our city has peaked. OKC has something special with MAPS that many other cities have had to sit back, take notes and only dream.

Caution: Major infrastructure will need to be addressed with the bulk of assistance & grants through the Federal Government. MAPS was never intended to be a cure-all & fix-all for concerns about OKC; hopefully, it will keep Oklahoma City competitive with the some of the innovative trends throughout the country.

MAPS 4 absolutely needs to be focused on transit infrastructure.

We need to make serious, substantial investments in rail transit, bus shelters, sidewalks, bike routes, and other public transit fixed infrastructure.

I appreciate that an RTA is in the development process, but we need to do more than that. We need to get light rail going. Commuter rail is a nice start, but we need to identify some key corridors and get light rail started.

You can get to the west side with a light rail line straight down Reno. It can terminus at the Outlet Shoppes.

You can get to the airport with a line that connects to the Reno line, straight down Meridian. You can get to the NW side via Classen and NW Expressway. We can access the inner NE side via the Adventure Line, we have the ROW and an existing rail line. We can access the south side via Shields. We can get to the east side via SE29th and hit MWC in the process.

We need to say, "this is our rail transit plan" and start working on it. I have chosen key corridors, most with wide ROW and large medians that can facilitate putting tracks down the middle of. (Reno, Shields, NW Expwy, Classen). All have major business or leisure destinations along or at the end of them, save for the blue line on the southside, which I suspect would be primarily park and ride driven while serving the SE Latino community.

https://i.gyazo.com/1cb2ea91fe58316e4d20eac3d1aa58d3.png

I like the map above. If you're going to do rail, hover, i think it should be regional. Include Norman, Edmond and MWCDC-Tinker/ Boeing.

I like the map above. If you're going to do rail, hover, i think it should be regional. Include Norman, Edmond and MWCDC-Tinker/ Boeing.

Norman and Edmond are both planned to be served by Commuter Rail, which is a much better mode of transit for such stage lengths.

Why do people keep trying to put mass transit down NW Expressway? Who would use this service and where would they possibly be going from or to?

Why would people not use it? To be able to get anywhere in the city from the West and Northwest parts of the city would be more than valuable. Currently, the area has tons of room to grow to be much more urban but the framework for urban centers every mile is already there and the population(which outside of the main core) is easily some of the highest in the city. Do I think it should be first? Heck no but it would be foolish to completely deny that side of town some mass transit. And as to your question of going to or from, how bout going to work downtown, catching a train to Norman (obviously down the road) Penn sqaure during the extra busy christmas season, the possibilities are endless. I know i'd use it to be able to have a drink on 10th street and not have to worry about driving home. Since it literally cuts through the middle of the northside it allows most people who would use it to be no more than 3-4 miles from it. Couple that with some neighborhood based bus service and I think you have a formula for success.

Why do people keep trying to put mass transit down NW Expressway? Who would use this service and where would they possibly be going from or to?

NW Expressway is the largest area of employment and recreation outside of the downtown core. It easily has the most attractions, shopping, restaurants, businesses, and employers outside of downtown. Saying it does not deserve a connection to transit just because it does not conform to urban design is a mistake.

If that were the case, the only place that should deserve transit is Deep Deuce and the CBD. They are the only two areas that are pretty close to 100% conformity to urban design and walkability -- and both still fail in some regards.

I live 11 miles from downtown Portland, on the blue line. It is certainly not an urban area, yet the MAX is packed day in and day out. To say transit will fail because it is a suburban designed area is incorrect. Living proof of its success is right outside my front door. I am a frequent user of it, and I'm not the only person served 11 miles out from downtown.

NW Expressway is one of the busiest thoroughfares in OKC, and there is plenty of reason it deserves transit.