Agree Bunty...you tell a lie enough times, and people take it as fact. At some point, and i'll bet you anything it's traced to just post WWII, the country started saying that the founders were making a Christian country. That time period sort of put a twist on a great many things in the history of the U.S. as the country tried to re-identify itself as the "good guys"....even though we caused a great amount of strife globally during the next 50 years, and we're paying for it now.

Latest update.

Ten Commandments case returns to judge after ruling to remove monument | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/ten-commandments-case-returns-to-judge-after-ruling-to-remove-monument/article/5442730)


The Oklahoma Supreme Court, which reversed Oklahoma County Judge Thomas Prince's ruling and ordered removal of a Ten Commandments monument at the state Capitol grounds, returned the case to him on Thursday.

Prince now is required to formally order the monument to be carted away.

Latest update.

Ten Commandments case returns to judge after ruling to remove monument | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/ten-commandments-case-returns-to-judge-after-ruling-to-remove-monument/article/5442730)

I wonder if the judge had something in mind for scheduling the status conference on 9/11?

Interfaith Alliance says Ten Commandments monument should be removed from Oklahoma Capitol grounds | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/interfaith-alliance-calls-for-monuments-removal/article/5443160)

Interfaith Alliance says Ten Commandments monument should be removed from Oklahoma Capitol grounds | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/interfaith-alliance-calls-for-monuments-removal/article/5443160)

Gov. Fallin believes in picking and choosing what not to follow or obey in the Bible, like when she indulged in adultery. Now she wants to treat the Oklahoma Constitution in the same way.

It looks like it's going to be gone in two weeks.

NewsOK Videos | Panel orders Ten Commandments monument removed from OK Capitol grounds (http://newsok.com/multimedia/video/4518923639001)

http://m.newsok.com/panel-orders-ten-commandment-monument-removed-from-ok-capitol-grounds/article/5450147

I love the unintended implications of ordering the monument off of the property by Aleister Crowley's birthday.

I've been pondering who, if anyone, might still have a trick tucked up a sleeve, or if things will simply happen on the announce schedule.

Man yells “Freedom!” as he destroys Arkansas’ new Ten Commandments monument (http://www.salon.com/2017/06/28/watch-man-yells-freedom-as-he-destroys-arkansas-new-ten-commandments-monument/)

"Back in 2014, a man named Michael Tate Reed used his truck to ram into a similarly designed Ten Commandments monument at the Oklahoma Capitol in Oklahoma City. It’s not clear if the same Michael Reed as was involved in Wednesday’s incident. "

HAHA, I am soooo wanting this to be two separate people with the same name, but I know that is too good to be true.

^^^

Same person... He apparently has mental a mental illness and says he hears voices.

The FFRF should erect a statue next to it that just says Commandment 11: Keep thy religion to thyself.

Most churches believe it's a violation of the 3rd commandment to put up a 10 Commandments monument on their property, so it's hard for the mentally ill to find such a monument to destroy.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image."

Most churches believe it's a violation of the 3rd commandment to put up a 10 Commandments monument on their property, so it's hard for the mentally ill to find such a monument to destroy.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image."

Interesting...never heard that. So many churches have posters or signs or whatever inside that depict the commandments, are you saying they draw the line on a monument or that they dont do either? Seems like somewhat arbitrary fuzzy logic. But religion is funny that way. Some folks say you can't use instruments because they weren't available "back in the day"....but they use electricity and A/C. Others have rock concerts for their music and tech it to the nth degree. It's all in what speaks to you.....

Both reactions I've seen (tribal Right and tribal Left) seem to really be missing the point or are just plain heartless.

What happened here is a mentally ill man acted out in a way he has previously acted out, destroying public property.

Now, if you're tribal Right and believe that we should be in the business of incarcerating mentally ill people who only caused property damage and are no threat to themselves or others, you're probably an asshole. Locking mentally ill people up who are of no threat to anyone is not WJWD. Or if you're tribal Left and think that a shattered monument is good because the ends justify the means and that causing damage to public property is a valid form of free expression, you are also an asshole.

This gets a glitzy headline and sets off lots of tribal fingerpointing and a lot of people fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Most churches believe it's a violation of the 3rd commandment to put up a 10 Commandments monument on their property, so it's hard for the mentally ill to find such a monument to destroy.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image."

Really? I'm not sure many churches follow the 10 commandments that strictly. Catholics obviously abandoned the 3rd commanded centuries ago, and protestant churches don't tend to adhere to them either.

I don't read the "Second" (not the third) commandment that way. This is not a comment on placing them on the capitol grounds and I certainly don't condone illegally destroying them. Destroy them by challenging them legally. Here is the definition of graven image.
grav·en im·age
noun
a carved idol or representation of a god used as an object of worship.
I don't believe that a tablet with a set of laws chiseled on it is a carved idol used as an object of worship. I know that the church I grew up in never worshipped the ten commandments in any way.
C. T.

Both reactions I've seen (tribal Right and tribal Left) seem to really be missing the point or are just plain heartless.

What happened here is a mentally ill man acted out in a way he has previously acted out, destroying public property.

Now, if you're tribal Right and believe that we should be in the business of incarcerating mentally ill people who only caused property damage and are no threat to themselves or others, you're probably an asshole. Locking mentally ill people up who are of no threat to anyone is not WJWD. Or if you're tribal Left and think that a shattered monument is good because the ends justify the means and that causing damage to public property is a valid form of free expression, you are also an asshole.

This gets a glitzy headline and sets off lots of tribal fingerpointing and a lot of people fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Just to clarify, I posted the article because I thought it was interesting that it might be the same guy doing the same thing he did to the OK monument. I am of the mindset that mentally ill people need help, not incarceration, and America is woefully inadequate in that regard. I'd like to see the monument removed via the courts, but not sure if that'll happen to this one, though, don't know enough details behind how it was erected yet (but it should never have been erected in the first place, IMO).

I don't read the "Second" (not the third) commandment that way. This is not a comment on placing them on the capitol grounds and I certainly don't condone illegally destroying them. Destroy them by challenging them legally. Here is the definition of graven image.
grav·en im·age
noun
a carved idol or representation of a god used as an object of worship.
I don't believe that a tablet with a set of laws chiseled on it is a carved idol used as an object of worship. I know that the church I grew up in never worshipped the ten commandments in any way.
C. T.

Just to correct and clarify, I was referring to the 2nd Commandment not the 3rd one.

Just to clarify, I posted the article because I thought it was interesting that it might be the same guy doing the same thing he did to the OK monument. I am of the mindset that mentally ill people need help, not incarceration, and America is woefully inadequate in that regard. I'd like to see the monument removed via the courts, but not sure if that'll happen to this one, though, don't know enough details behind how it was erected yet (but it should never have been erected in the first place, IMO).

Even with him being mentally ill, I think it says a lot that he didn't see fit to run down the Ten Commanments monument after it was moved to the lawn of the OCPA building.

Really? I'm not sure many churches follow the 10 commandments that strictly. Catholics obviously abandoned the 3rd commanded centuries ago, and protestant churches don't tend to adhere to them either.

Catholics worship statues? News to me.

Attack the Catholic Church where it deserves to be attacked--a history of condoning the severe abuse of powerless persons, persecution of heretics, abusing of children, etc. Tut tutting them for not toeing the Protestant line in the Protestant interpretation of the 10 Commandments, which while neat, I think we'd all pretty much agree are just as much God's law according to any serious Christian theological perspective as that which may be found in Leviticus.

Catholics worship statues? News to me.

Attack the Catholic Church where it deserves to be attacked--a history of condoning the severe abuse of powerless persons, persecution of heretics, abusing of children, etc. Tut tutting them for not toeing the Protestant line in the Protestant interpretation of the 10 Commandments, which while neat, I think we'd all pretty much agree are just as much God's law according to any serious Christian theological perspective as that which may be found in Leviticus.
Either you're being argumentative for no reason, or you're absurdenly ignorant. Either way, I'm not going to engage. Good day. I didn't tut tut anyone and I'm not playing your typically childish games.

Bunty,
I haven't seen it at that location, but it seems to me that I read in the paper that access was more difficult.
C. T.

Bunty,
And just to correct and clarify, it was a little smart-alecky of me to point out that you said third instead of second, I think I must have been in argumentative mood. Does anybody actually think I knew the number without googling it? A good Christian would have but not me! Sorry friend. I think I need an attitude adjustment once in a while.
C. T.

Either you're being argumentative for no reason, or you're absurdenly ignorant. Either way, I'm not going to engage. Good day. I didn't tut tut anyone and I'm not playing your typically childish games.

There's just no need for the anti-Catholic bias and the assumption that all faiths, and let's be honest, when the biggest Christian denomination by far, interprets things differently than you do, they are different, but not wrong.

If you think the Catholic Church ignores the bit about graven images, you might want to go do a little research on how that Church views that concept.

These 10 Commandments monuments are nothing but Dominionist bull****. They want to do this because they want to show who is in charge. I have faith the courts in Arkansas will get to the same conclusion their sister courts in Oklahoma did. There's no reason for the destruction of public property. I'm sure some lobbying headquarters in Little Rock will happily place the 10 Commandments on their lawn.

These 10 Commandments monuments are nothing but Dominionist bull****. They want to do this because they want to show who is in charge. I have faith the courts in Arkansas will get to the same conclusion their sister courts in Oklahoma did. There's no reason for the destruction of public property. I'm sure some lobbying headquarters in Little Rock will happily place the 10 Commandments on their lawn.

I agree with this. I don't have any problem with Ten Commandments monuments that are actually historical. The only reason they are building them today though is a way for the Christian Right to show who is in charge. That's why it HAS to be on public property. Private land near public land isn't good enough.

Agreed Midtowner and bchris. I'm very much a Christian and very much opposed to these being on public grounds like this. And if they do, then i'm going to be in favor of anyone else being able to do the same...Muslim, Jewish, Satanism, etc. If you think Christians deserve placement, then ALL deserve placement. But more correctly, NONE of them should be there at all. Keep religion out of politics.

Doesn't matter to me one way or another about the 10 commandments monument being displayed on the capitol grounds. Once you allow grounds for this monument, then you open the door to allow other denominations or pagans to want their right to display.

As a Roman Catholic, there is a lot of symbolism in our churches. By no means to we worship these symbols; they are just reminders--no different than the use of a pic of Jesus Christ, photograph or placeholder.

IMO we need to continue to separate church from state. These symbols & monuments do not define who we are as people; add or detract from our faith.

Most churches believe it's a violation of the 3rd commandment to put up a 10 Commandments monument on their property, so it's hard for the mentally ill to find such a monument to destroy.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image."

I don't think "the mentally ill" would have had any issue with a 10 Commandments statue on church property.

Really? I'm not sure many churches follow the 10 commandments that strictly. Catholics obviously abandoned the 3rd commanded centuries ago, and protestant churches don't tend to adhere to them either.

May be one of the most ignorant things I've read on this or other boards in quite some time.

May be one of the most ignorant things I've read on this or other boards in quite some time.

Really. Feel free to counter the argument oh great one.

Graven images iss a rough translation from carved or wooden images. It was a proscription on icons of religious figures, be it Christ on a crucifix, saints, the Virgin Mary, etc. Have you
ever seen shrines in a caholic house. How about protestants wearing crosses. So please, oh wise one, tell me how I'm ignorant.

I'll wait over here. Eating my meat from cloven hoofed animal (another commandment we totally adhere to).

Paul's letter to the Philippians basically said that the commandment against graven images didn't apply. This was likely done because so many Roman converts were used to the idea of shrines in their homes.

Catholics worship statues? News to me.

Attack the Catholic Church where it deserves to be attacked--a history of condoning the severe abuse of powerless persons, persecution of heretics, abusing of children, etc. Tut tutting them for not toeing the Protestant line in the Protestant interpretation of the 10 Commandments, which while neat, I think we'd all pretty much agree are just as much God's law according to any serious Christian theological perspective as that which may be found in Leviticus.

I agree with this.

Growing up strict Baptist, perhaps the only thing I knew about Catholics growing up is that they supposedly "worshiped statues" and prayed to Mary instead of Jesus and that they were not Christian and going to hell. This has become a pet peeve of mine; Baptists not only attack and condemn the "unbelieving world" but also other Christians who might not practice their faith in the same way they do. Here is a Catholic article responding to the claim that they worship statues.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/do-catholics-worship-statues

There is plenty that is wrong with the Catholic church, but I wish Baptists would stop spreading misconceptions about them.

I agree with this.

Growing up strict Baptist, perhaps the only thing I knew about Catholics growing up is that they supposedly "worshiped statues" and prayed to Mary instead of Jesus and that they were not Christian and going to hell. This has become a pet peeve of mine; Baptists not only attack and condemn the "unbelieving world" but also other Christians who might not practice their faith in the same way they do. Here is a Catholic article responding to the claim that they worship statues.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/do-catholics-worship-statues

There is plenty that is wrong with the Catholic church, but I wish Baptists would stop spreading misconceptions about them.

There was nothing in my post attacking anyone. I merely expressed surprise that someone thinks any of the Christian religions would ban monuments based on the commandments. For the most part the majority are no longer strictly followed. Paul modified several of them in his various letters. the commandment wasn't about worshipping, it was about creating any religion figures or icons. Since this was common for many of the religions at the time, it was something that set the Israelites apart. Much like the restrictions on what animals could be consumed, it served a purpose that was more than religious. If you look at my post, I called out Protestant religions too. So the butthurt people with reading comprehension need to get over their victimhood.

Or I guess these monuments all over the country are being paid for and pushed by atheists, since so many seem to think all Christians strictly adhere to the 10 Commandments.

Who knew. I guess the roads should be empty tomorrow. No driving on the Sabbath you know.

Really. Feel free to counter the argument oh great one.

Graven images iss a rough translation from carved or wooden images. It was a proscription on icons of religious figures, be it Christ on a crucifix, saints, the Virgin Mary, etc. Have you
ever seen shrines in a caholic house. How about protestants wearing crosses. So please, oh wise one, tell me how I'm ignorant.

Perhaps I missed the explanatory notes in the Old Testament as to exactly what constitutes "graven images." Again, your Protestant leanings are not understood to be universal truth. While you might believe what you are saying is true, I might just accuse you of poor scholarship. The "shrines" you are referring to are not literally being prayed to. They represent in most cases a Saint who you petition through prayer to intercede on your behalf with God.

No need to reinvent the wheel, read this link if you want to understand where the Catholics are coming from.


Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them." (Psalm 115:4-5, 8; see also Isaiah 44:9-20; Jeremiah 10:1-16; Daniel 14:1-30). God, however, is the "living God" (Joshua 3:10; Psalm 42:3; etc.) who gives life and intervenes in history. Catechism of the Catholic Church 2112


I'll wait over here. Eating my meat from cloven hoofed animal (another commandment we totally adhere to).

And this is just being flippant. You said the Catholics ignore the 3rd Commandment, I think the posters here are charging you with ignorance and trying to point out to you that just because your tiny, tiny sect compared to the Catholic Church believes something, your tiny, tiny sect is not necessarily right or wrong. Neither are the Catholics right or wrong. It's all about faith. Even if you believe the Bible is literally true (not required for Catholics), there is still considerable grey area in that the Bible did not come with explanatory notes and definitions.

Who knew. I guess the roads should be empty tomorrow. No driving on the Sabbath you know.

I'm sure you're familiar with the Christian concept of Original Sin and the effect Christ's sacrifice had upon it. I thought that was a pretty universal concept in both Protestant and Catholic churches.

This is the Catholics' position on the 3rd Commandment:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a3.htm

To me you're arguing over a simple statement, just to be an ass. My statement? Most Christian religions don't have a strong stance against a ten commandments based monument, because they don't adhear to the old testiment that strongly. This isn't a contravsial statement unless you're an argumentative pissant looking for a fight. If you disagree, it's a simple yes no answer.

Perhaps I missed the explanatory notes in the Old Testament as to exactly what constitutes "graven images."

Maybe you should have gone to seminary. Graven was a rough translation from the original Hebrew which means carved or wooden. Now you know and knowing is half the battle.

. The "shrines" you are referring to are not literally being prayed to. They represent in most cases a Saint who you petition through prayer to intercede on your behalf with God.

So you pray to a shrine while not praying to a shrine? Interesting counceler.

So you pray to a shrine while not praying to a shrine? Interesting counceler.
Your ignorance on the subject is astounding and offensive. Fools should just keep their mouths shut.

So you pray to a shrine while not praying to a shrine? Interesting counceler.

Through, not to. Language matters.

Not raised Catholic, I've been INSIDE a Catholic church only maybe half a dozen times in my lifetime, and that was never for an actual service, but for a wedding or funeral. That said, call me all the names in the book you want, I really don't care, I'm FREELY ADMITTING my lack of knowledge. I am ignorant and asking for enlightenment.

That said, why does one have to pray to a saint to intercede on one's behalf? Everything I was always told, one prays to God directly, He hears the prayer. Is He just sitting around waiting until a saint or two comes up and says "hey, Bob asked us to ask You to help him find peace, he lost his job last week and the bills are really piling up" and then says "Oh hey, he asked Me that too, I guess if he also asked you guys he REALLY means it."? I'm asking a serious question, would appreciate a serious answer, but if one wants to attack instead, go for it.

Followup question, if this is indeed the case, is there a specific saint or number of saints one must petition before one's prayer is accepted?

Followup question number two, if this ISN'T the case, is it possible praying to (or through if you prefer to argue about a word rather than the point) a shrine instead of directly is possibly really annoying the dude that said specifically "pray to Me"? Psalm 6:9, Psalm 34:15 (and 17), Psalm 65:2, 2nd Chronicles 7:14-15. Moving from the Old Testament, Jesus (if anyone knows how to pray, it would be him, I imagine) responded to the question "How should we pray" by saying, in part, that one prays to 'your Father', and that it is 'your Father' that will reward you, and then he gave what is commonly called the 'model prayer', opening with 'our Father'.

I can't speak for Jerry, but I think MAYBE one thing he meant was you really don't need a statue or a string of beads to pray. On the contrary, there are specific warnings against such a thing.

Fair questions, all. The Church has the belief that you can pray directly to God, but when you pray, you can pray with a Saint or angels. I think this article does the concept a lot more justice than I can:

https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-intercession-of-the-saints

As to the followup, generally speaking, if you're praying with/through a Saint, you'd probably select said Saint by what that particular Saint would be associated with.

Here's a handy list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_patron_saints_by_occupation_and_activity

So if you wanted to pray for your Uber driver, you might invoke St. Fiacre, the patron saint of taxi drivers.

The shrine isn't really important. It's a thing--a prop. It possesses no magical powers. Sometimes there is candle lighting or whatnot, but that is more just a custom/tradition than having any serious theological meaning. The Catholic Church is 2,000 years old and differs most significantly from Protestant churches in that it derives what it is and what it does from tradition as well as from the Bible.

Your ignorance on the subject is astounding and offensive. Fools should just keep their mouths shut.

So why don't you?

Thank you for that link, Midtowner, I honestly had never thought of it that way. But I can understand that just as we may pray together, humans and saints may also pray together. So it's not so much a "Hey, Saint of Distressed Souls, ask God to help me deal with the loss of my friend" but more of a the saint is your friend and also desires to see your pain lessened, so prays with you, just as an earthly friend would.

Thank you for that link, Midtowner, I honestly had never thought of it that way. But I can understand that just as we may pray together, humans and saints may also pray together. So it's not so much a "Hey, Saint of Distressed Souls, ask God to help me deal with the loss of my friend" but more of a the saint is your friend and also desires to see your pain lessened, so prays with you, just as an earthly friend would.

If you ever have any kind of question about what the basis for anything the Catholic Church does or believes, the Catechism of the Catholic Church can be found online and is completely searchable. There are also a great number of sites which have the answers. Probably the strangest thing for a lot of Protestants regarding the Catholic Church is that to be Catholic, there are very few tenants one MUST believe and even those, such as the Ecclesiastical Law stating those who procure or complete an abortion are automatically excommunicated are not really followed in the United States. Think of it as a franchise with a pretty loosey goosey home office. One aspect I really respect is that there are multiple well researched, well thought out answers (not always agreeing) for any question about Catholicism one might come up with. The rule book is a little more complicated than the Southern Baptist's.

Your ignorance on the subject is astounding and offensive. Fools should just keep their mouths shut.

this post adds nothing to the discussion. instead of simply attacking another poster, try discussing why you think their position is wrong.

there are very few tenants one MUST believe and...

i think you mean 'tenets.' language matters. ; )

this post adds nothing to the discussion. instead of simply attacking another poster, try discussing why you think their position is wrong.

Over and over repeating other persons' or other groups' beliefs without knowing them is ignorance. Fools keep repeating ignorance. Anyone following this thread knows the ignorance that is repeated regarding the Catholic Church's (and other Christian's) beliefs regarding the Ten Commandments, Idols, et al. Either they are willfully misrepresenting to further an agenda, or they are truly ignorant.

Feel free to put me on ignore Rover. I'm not in kindergarten. Bye.

Feel free to put me on ignore Rover. I'm not in kindergarten. Bye.

I must have you on sort of ignore because for the life of me I can't find anything you posted on this thread that is the least bit controversial. Shoot, me and my folks are the ones who should be upset. That's our thing that got hijacked and repurposed as some other group's pride. Eh, what can you do.

Over and over repeating other persons' or other groups' beliefs without knowing them is ignorance. Fools keep repeating ignorance. Anyone following this thread knows the ignorance that is repeated regarding the Catholic Church's (and other Christian's) beliefs regarding the Ten Commandments, Idols, et al. Either they are willfully misrepresenting to further an agenda, or they are truly ignorant.

alright... if somebody is misrepresenting a certain position, then let's discuss exactly what they're getting wrong instead of making generalized accusations of ignorance... i think other posters in this very thread have done just that. not sure why you can't do the same thing.

From Catholic.com:

"Despite appearances, we know Exodus 20 is not a prohibition against making “any likeness of anything” in a strict sense because we clearly see God either commanding or praising the making of images and statues in multiple biblical texts (see Exodus 25:18; Numbers 21:8-9; I Kings 6:23-28, 9:3). Just five chapters after this so-called prohibition against statues, for example, God commands Moses to make statues representing two angels to be placed over the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant:

And you shall make two cherubim of gold… The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another…. And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark… There I will meet with you (Ex. 25:18-22).

There are five key points to be made concerning this common misunderstanding among Protestants as well as many quasi-Christian sects.

1. Exodus 20:4 is part of the first commandment that begins in verse 3 and stretches through part of verse five:

You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

Verses 3 and 5 make clear that this commandment is not simply condemning making statues; It is condemning making gods that you bow down to or serve. In a word, this first commandment forbids idolatry, i.e., the worship of anything or anyone other than God. The Catholic Church condemns this as well.

2. By lifting out part of the first commandment appearing to prohibit the making of “any likeness of anything,” not only do you have God contradicting himself in later commanding the making of statues, but you also end up making the first two commandments repetitive. They are both essentially condemning idolatry."

So it would appear I was right? Catholics and protestants would see no problem with a 10 Commandments monument? My first statement stands and nothing you've said contradicts that.

A lot of Catholics are going to have a problem with such a monument on a church/state basis--and the Catholics have much more of a historical frame of reference to draw from to tell you what happens when you start mixing church and state.

what happens when you start mixing church and state.

You get a billion dollar budget hole?

You get a billion dollar budget hole?

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2012/09/orson_wells_Slow-Clap.gif

So it would appear I was right? Catholics and protestants would see no problem with a 10 Commandments monument? My first statement stands and nothing you've said contradicts that.
The problem is the lack of understanding of what separation of church and state means. Certain advocates use the issue more as a human issue to assert their own authority than to worship God. Any Real Christian should understand the evil in misusing religion. The Pharacies tried this and some people never learn, or else they are the agent of something else.

Oh, and while we are at it...since there are different translations/interpretations of the commandments, whose do you suggest the state push forward? Is the state the authority on this? Or, are you suggesting the state push one Church's translation over another's. What next issue does the state take a position of religion on .... the official prayer of schools... which churches prayers are the official state prayer? It is a slippery slope.

A lot of Catholics are going to have a problem with such a monument on a church/state basis--and the Catholics have much more of a historical frame of reference to draw from to tell you what happens when you start mixing church and state.

That wasn't the topic. The original assertion I was questioning was the belief that Christians wouldn't set up monuments or displays at their Church or on private property.

The whole church state thing is a different topic.

SMH. People are so eager to be argumentive they don't even read.

The problem is the lack of understanding of what separation of church and state means. ... Oh, and while we are at it...since there are different translations/interpretations of the commandments, whose do you suggest the state push forward? Is the state the authority on this? Or, are you suggesting the state push one Church's translation over another's. What next issue does the state take a position of religion on .... the official prayer of schools... which churches prayers are the official state prayer? It is a slippery slope.

Now wait just one cotton-pickin' minute here. Are you really crapping on another user for being 'ignorant', and then you post this? I guess you are correct in the first part, there's a lack of understanding on what separation of church and state means, because your second part is EXACTLY what it means. The state does not need to choose which version to endorse. The entire point of separation of church and state is they don't pick ANY to endorse. It's NOT just giving you the choice of which religion to follow or which church to attend, it means the state can't say "we recommend this one". That's what started this whole mess with the monument in the first place. Oklahoma put it there, then wasted money fighting the state constitution, then fought the federal constitution, then tried to make the state constitution override the federal and make it legal. Nobody is seeking which issue the state needs to take a position on next, because the ONLY position is "the state has no position".

Would it be too ironic to point out Matthew 7:5 at this time?