Ok, if there aren't any examples on this scale then why would anybody in this thread even bring up mental illness? If anybody who has ever committed a crime this large never been clinically proven insane, then why would we start making that assumption now?

You are making my point for me. Anybody that is capable of a mass murder of this proportion should not even have a chance of wiggling out of anything due to his/her mental state.

Okay, well now that you've moved the goal posts from mental illness to clinically insane we'll move forward:

I'll let you provide an example with your own parsing of someone in this thread saying that someone should have an opportunity of wiggling out of culpability for murder because they are clinically insane…

Thinking about killing someone and killing someone are completely different things. Thinking about killing someone is an intrusive thought (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrusive_thought) and we all get these thoughts.

Some people have severe intrusive thoughts which they can carry out, which I believe happened here. I'm not a psychiatrist, but I think this could've been stopped if the gunman sought help about his thoughts and was prescribed medication. But that obviously happens very rarely in these situations.

It's too early for me to say on this guy. This just happened today. I haven't even read any articles about it yet -- just seen the headlines. I suspect we'll know more about it as time goes by. It seems clear that there is some combination of mental illness and extreme racism.

I have no problem calling a black gang member who shoots someone during the commission of a crime a "thug". I also have no problem calling a crazy white guy who shoots a bunch of people like this a "psycho". The race of the killer doesn't even matter.

This article explains what I was trying to say earlier. Race does matter in many ways, especially in the ways we talk about these issues because our discussions will determine what we do next: Shooters of color are called ?terrorists? and ?thugs.? Why are white shooters called ?mentally ill?? - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/06/18/call-the-charleston-church-shooting-what-it-is-terrorism/)

The media and public do not treat black and white perpetrators or victims the same.

This article explains what I was trying to say earlier. Race does matter in many ways, especially in the ways we talk about these issues because our discussions will determine what we do next: Shooters of color are called ?terrorists? and ?thugs.? Why are white shooters called ?mentally ill?? - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/06/18/call-the-charleston-church-shooting-what-it-is-terrorism/)

The media and public do not treat black and white perpetrators or victims the same.

I'm not so sure. Remember the ex-LA cop who was on the run after killing an officer? Finally they caught him holed up in a cabin and burned it down? There was a lot of discussion about mental health with that case. Race was clearly involved here, I don't see that can be denied, but to go as far as some do and want to take one case and decide the media always handles things differently with different races. I don't buy that. That's all politics from the viewpoint of the whole "white privilege" theory. Which, I know you believe Dan, and I respect that. I just disagree and think there is an "upper class privilege" as so many poor whites are treated just like blacks - but are forgotten because they don't fit the foundation of the theory.

This article explains what I was trying to say earlier. Race does matter in many ways, especially in the ways we talk about these issues because our discussions will determine what we do next: Shooters of color are called ?terrorists? and ?thugs.? Why are white shooters called ?mentally ill?? - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/06/18/call-the-charleston-church-shooting-what-it-is-terrorism/)

The media and public do not treat black and white perpetrators or victims the same.

That article finishes with this statement:


I hope the media coverage won’t fall back on the typical narrative ascribed to white male shooters: a lone, disturbed or mentally ill young man failed by society. This is not an act of just “one hateful person.” It is a manifestation of the racial hatred and white supremacy that continues to pervade our society, 50 years after the Birmingham church bombing galvanized the Civil Rights Movement. It should be covered as such. And now that authorities have found their suspect, we should be calling him what he is: a terrorist.

The problem is more often than not when these sort of mass shootings happen, they are not concentrated on a specific, consistent aspect. It's hard to see a hot-topic motive behind Sandy Hook or Columbine. We're trying to find common ground to fix this issue and it certainly can't be wrapped up in misogyny (Elliot Roger) or racism (Dylan Roof).

Shooters of color when tied to Islam are called terrorists because the term evokes the same feeling that we have about the jihadists of 9/11. McVeigh was called a terrorist, but somewhere along the line, terrorist became synonymous with jihadist.

Thugs are called thugs when they're involved with gangs, and a notable percentage of gun-related deaths that occur at the hands of a black person are gang related. Furthermore, to be fair, it's a term that the black community co-opted via hip hop culture sometime in the last 25 years, so that makes the situation a bit more complex.

None of that means we should uphold these terms in media coverage, but these issues of rhetoric are not as simple as "Our coverage is racist". I mean, of course race play a part and of course there are racists currents running throughout, because a racist current runs throughout America.

I guess we could go about calling these white assailants "White Trash". We didn't call Seung-Hui Cho a Kamikaze just because he's Asian.

Mental illness gets brought up when the victim count passes 5 or 6 because it starts getting harder for us to grapple with the number.

And again, I'm trying to recall a mass shooting involving a black perpetrator and I just can't.

This article explains what I was trying to say earlier. Race does matter in many ways, especially in the ways we talk about these issues because our discussions will determine what we do next: Shooters of color are called ?terrorists? and ?thugs.? Why are white shooters called ?mentally ill?? - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/06/18/call-the-charleston-church-shooting-what-it-is-terrorism/)

The media and public do not treat black and white perpetrators or victims the same.

Well, I think the types of crimes they are focusing on are different. As I said, if a person with a criminal record shoots another person during the commission of a crime, they're a "thug". If a person with no criminal history murders 10 people in a shooting spree that is unrelated to any sort of rational motivation, they're "crazy".

Ok, if there aren't any examples on this scale then why would anybody in this thread even bring up mental illness? If anybody who has ever committed a crime this large never been clinically proven insane, then why would we start making that assumption now?

You are making my point for me. Anybody that is capable of a mass murder of this proportion should not even have a chance of wiggling out of anything due to his/her mental state.

Well, you're throwing around a bunch of different terms, each of which has a specific meaning. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on mental health issues, but there's a difference between someone who has mild mental health issues and someone who is legally incompetent.

Suppose I suffer from severe schizophrenia. I'm sitting in the park, muttering to myself, and shouting out angry nonsense at people who walk by. In my brain, I may 100% believe that I'm living out Invasion of the Body Snatchers, and all those people are aliens who are infiltrating the Earth. Chemically, the wrong parts of my brain are firing. I cannot distinguish fantasy from reality. The cognitive portions of my brain that allow me to think clearly and rationally have malfunctioned. In this sense I am very much like the person who is having a seizure -- my actions are completely out of my control because I am no longer interacting with real life. The things I am seeing are not there. If the Body Snatchers are all turning to attack me, and they start letting out this crazy alien howl, their eyes start glowing, and they charge at me, I'm justified in shooting them, right?

A person like that may be dangerous as all hell, but they aren't competent to stand trial. They are innocent of committing a crime because they were so crazy they didn't even know what they were doing. I don't think that is the situation here with this guy, but it does happen.

While we may not agree on everything, let me just say that I'm glad that the responses thus far have been thoughtful as discussions like these too quickly devolve into slogans and camps.

I came to this thread for the first time tonight expecting typical politics board rhetoric. Far from it, good discussions

All I'm saying is I'm horrified at what happened, and think its true evil, and jumping in to blaim mental illness with no evidence is insulting to folks, including myself, who have dealt with issues yet the only harm they present is to themselves, not others.

All I'm saying is I'm horrified at what happened, and think its true evil, and jumping in to blaim mental illness with no evidence is insulting to folks, including myself, who have dealt with issues yet the only harm they present is to themselves, not others.

Some good points made so far and again the main thing I wanted to do in this thread is offer my condolences, thoughts and prayers to the people killed, their families and the members of the Emanuel AME Church. Lets hope we can learn from this event but judging what we learned from past events like this I'm doubting it.

Jon Stewart hit it on the head
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/kb2h42/charleston-church-shooting

What an amazing group of people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e26Eysq22Yg

... I'm trying to recall a mass shooting involving a black perpetrator and I just can't.

Does the Beltway Sniper count as a mass shooting incident? I believe he was black and (I'm not discounting Dan's comments at all) that dude was whacko! I don't recall him being a thug or terrorist in the definition of a terrorist being someone who is trying to effect political ends (my own whacko definition, I think).

What an amazing group of people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e26Eysq22Yg

This really is one of the more amazing things I've watched recently. The resilience and forgiveness of the families is almost beyond belief.

Shouldn't we wait to, you know, collect evidence before rushing to execute the person you think did it?Isn't his proud confession enough evidence for you? Or was that just a sneaky way to establish that any trial would be tainted by lack of counsel?

$29 Million to help Charleston shooting victims’ families ???

U.S. to fast track $29 million to help Charleston shooting victims' families | The Black Sphere | TheBlackSphere.net | The Black Sphere | TheBlackSphere.net (http://theblacksphere.net/2015/06/u-s-to-fast-track-29-million-to-help-charleston-shooting-victims-families/)

$29 Million to help Charleston shooting victims’ families ???

U.S. to fast track $29 million to help Charleston shooting victims' families | The Black Sphere | TheBlackSphere.net | The Black Sphere | TheBlackSphere.net (http://theblacksphere.net/2015/06/u-s-to-fast-track-29-million-to-help-charleston-shooting-victims-families/)

Glad to see the money for the government's national Crime Victim Assistance Formula Grant program go for a good cause.

Alleged "manifesto" of Dylann Roof published in full:

Here Is What Appears to Be Dylann Roof?s Racist Manifesto (http://gawker.com/here-is-what-appears-to-be-dylann-roofs-racist-manifest-1712767241)

I think its safe to say this cannot be dismissed as mere mental illness.

I think its safe to say this cannot be dismissed as mere mental illness.

I apologize in advance for appearing to be one of those who latches onto a word and rides it down the wrong rabbit hole.
These questions are mostly rhetorical and not directed at the writer.
What is mere mental illness? Surely he knew what he was doing and was aware it was wrong.
Is anybody who has no respect for life mentally healthy?
Is someone who is clearly racist and unable to see that our differences are only skin color NOT mentally ill?
I don't think that the micro solution to this specific incident is better treatment of mental health, but let's not say that he had all 52 cards in his deck.

Alleged "manifesto" of Dylann Roof published in full:

Here Is What Appears to Be Dylann Roof?s Racist Manifesto (http://gawker.com/here-is-what-appears-to-be-dylann-roofs-racist-manifest-1712767241)

I think its safe to say this cannot be dismissed as mere mental illness.

Well, it looks like he's 21, has started abusing drugs heavily, and his behavior has become very erratic in the last year or two. Those are all signs that he could be suffering from schizophrenia. It can seriously affect behavior and judgment.

Then again, some guys are just angry angry people.

Without more info, it's hard to tell which is the case.

The problem I have with arguments like the ones above is that it somehow tries to assume abhorrent human behavior is simply some "disease," as if nobody could naturally be this bigoted or evil.

I would urge you to read the manifesto. These are not the writings of someone who wasn't in his right mind, largely because they are recycled talking points that racists have been using for years. Rants about blacks being intellectually inferior, segregation wasn't so bad, jews are corrupting the world, blah blah blah....really nothing new here and sadly you can find a lot of people who think like this. With that in mind, being disillusioned or angry is not a disease. JMO but I feel like the media, save for Fox News (surprise surprise!) have kinda moved on from any mental disorder angle.

Like I said earlier, he has a right to due process, and in doing so is likely to have some sort of mental evaluation. My guess is that they will find nothing, or at least nothing that would interfere with his determination of right and wrong. This guy may have been a little off but he knew exactly what he was doing.

The problem I have with arguments like the ones above is that it somehow tries to assume abhorrent human behavior is simply some "disease," as if nobody could naturally be this bigoted or evil.

I would urge you to read the manifesto. These are not the writings of someone who wasn't in his right mind, largely because they are recycled talking points that racists have been using for years. Rants about blacks being intellectually inferior, segregation wasn't so bad, jews are corrupting the world, blah blah blah....really nothing new here and sadly you can find a lot of people who think like this. With that in mind, being disillusioned or angry is not a disease. JMO but I feel like the media, save for Fox News (surprise surprise!) have kinda moved on from any mental disorder angle.

Like I said earlier, he has a right to due process, and in doing so is likely to have some sort of mental evaluation. My guess is that they will find nothing, or at least nothing that would interfere with his determination of right and wrong. This guy may have been a little off but he knew exactly what he was doing.

I don't actually want to read his manifesto. I think doing that gives this guy more attention, which is exactly what he wants. I honestly don't care what ideas he has or what he was trying to accomplish.

Presuming he is actually the one who did this (and he probably is -- innocent until proven guilty and all that, and there's a possibility they got the wrong guy and this dude is just crazy enough to try and take credit for it -- but yeah he's probably the guy who did it), I am not saying that he shouldn't be punished or that he isn't responsible for what he did. What I am saying is that he is the right age, and is showing the signs of someone who is in the beginning stages of severe mental illness.

This guy has black friends from high school on his Facebook account, yet now he's extremely racist. The guy starts exhibiting odd behaviors, driving away a lot of his friends. He quits associating with his family. He heavily uses drugs. He makes crazy comments all the time, according to the handful of friends he has left. He thinks "he's the only one who can do something" about this perceived problem. One of the principle symptoms of the disease is having unfounded delusions. You might think that aliens are invading the Earth, or that the CIA can read your thoughts, you might believe the craziest of conspiracy theories, or think that there is a murderer living under your bed. No amount of evidence can persuade the person otherwise. In some cases, those delusions can involve race. It's like we are going down a checklist for schizophrenia. I'm not saying 100% that he has it, but it's a good bet.

You know, maybe he doesn't have it. Maybe he's just a guy who became so consumed by hatred that he decided to murder a lot of people. It wouldn't be the first time something like that happened. But I wouldn't put money on it.

With all due respect, if you aren't going to read the manifesto (you may not like it but it is what it is), then a lot of this is just speculation on your part. He lays out quite clearly his thought process, about how he became disillusioned with black people after the Trayvvon Martin controversy, which led him to do "research" off the Conservative Citizens Council, which is pretty much a white separatist group, and so on.

Having black friends on Facebook is not a valid excuse, come on you know better. That's almost cliche. Osama Bin Laden was an ally with the US at one point but that didn't stop him from flying planes into the World Trade Center. People can and do change.

And I strongly disagree with you that these are somehow delusions. Do you know how many working class white kids are sitting in their rooms right now who've checked out of the real world? In South Carolina's defense, they are increasingly NOT in the south, but hollowed out industrial towns the midwest and northeast with no opportunities and no hope. These kids sit in their room and stew at the world passing them by, while blaming all the blacks, "illegals," Jews, and immigrants for their predicament. If this were happening among religious minorities or in other countries, we would say they are becoming radicalized, but in the US they are just having delusions?? Trust me, there are tens of thousands of Dylann Roofs in this country and most are completely sane...that should scare the pants off you.

Not everything is about race...but this is not one of those occasions. Failure to acknowledge that is just sowing the seeds for the next tragedy.

Ok, I can agree with most of what you said, but for the line about "tens of thousands of Dylann Roofs". There might... 'might' be tens of thousands of racists, but not ones ready and willing to go and do mass shootings. And if there are, we're in more trouble than we can handle. That's more than Tulsa race riots trouble. And I don't expect an event like that to happen again anytime soon.

It's both. Everyone. It's BOTH/AND. The dude clearly has mental issues. The dude is clearly racist. Discounting either is a mistake.

Arguing that this is the end result of racist thinking is absurd and it completely undermines any nuanced conversation of racism we've had.

So, how many people do you have to kill for it to clearly be mental issues? One? Nine? One hundred sixty eight?

So, how many people do you have to kill for it to clearly be mental issues? One? Nine? One hundred sixty eight?

I think people are conflating mental issues with incompetency. Clearly, anyone who does something like this has some sort of mental issue. I think extreme racism and hate like this is a type of mental issue. But not necessarily a mental illness, or diminished capacity, or out right insanity.

According to what research or scientific literature is it clear? It is easy to stand here and make that statement as laypeople, but is there any actual backing for saying that?

I think people are conflating mental issues with incompetency. Clearly, anyone who does something like this has some sort of mental issue. I think extreme racism and hate like this is a type of mental issue. But not necessarily a mental illness, or diminished capacity, or out right insanity.

Fair enough. Hell, we are ALL probably a little "messed up in the head" if you look hard enough.

Just don't conflate the two issues as somehow being equal in this instance. His violent bigotry has been established. Unless otherwise revealed, any diagnosable mental issue has not.

And I hate to get all social justice warrior on here, but it bears repeating that white male criminals often get to play the mental card while black/latino ones (thugs) and Muslims and other religious minorities (terrorists) do not.

Fair enough. Hell, we are ALL probably a little "messed up in the head" if you look hard enough.

Just don't conflate the two issues as somehow being equal in this instance. His violent bigotry has been established. Unless otherwise revealed, any diagnosable mental issue has not.

I agree 100%. I believe I made that same point in a previous post.

So, how many people do you have to kill for it to clearly be mental issues? One? Nine? One hundred sixty eight?

You don't have to kill anyone to have clear mental health issues.


Fair enough. Hell, we are ALL probably a little "messed up in the head" if you look hard enough.

Just don't conflate the two issues as somehow being equal in this instance. His violent bigotry has been established. Unless otherwise revealed, any diagnosable mental issue has not.

And I hate to get all social justice warrior on here, but it bears repeating that white male criminals often get to play the mental card while black/latino ones (thugs) and Muslims and other religious minorities (terrorists) do not.

There is obviously a scale as far as how crazy somebody is. On the one end, you have "I feel sad sometimes", and on the other there's a guy who smears feces on himself and slams his head into the walls of his jail cell until restrained.

And I have represented quite a few black and hispanic clients who were very mentally ill. It's not a get out of jail free card for white people.

This guy does not appear to be incompetent -- where he is unable to understand what is happening. But I have represented hundreds of people with schizophrenia and I'd bet he's got it. Crazy? Yes. Too crazy to stand trial? Probably not. Has he been diagnosed yet? Of course not. He hasn't even been seen by a doctor yet, as far as I know.

Everyone is racist to one degree or another. This much is being realized with the push-back in the newest wave of progressives against "color-blindness". We can't possibly at this point in time absolve ourselves of history.

There are degrees of racism from negligible-individual racism (example: I used to think all black people drank Sprite, because that's all I ever saw black people drink in high school) to catastrophic-systemic racism (example: The Holocaust).

This guy is so far past what is typically even a severe-individual racist action that it's hard to qualify. This guy wasn't "defending his territory" (Which of course is also bull**** when it happens in these cops shooting down black kids). He actively left his own "territory" entered into "territory" that didn't encroach on him and slew nearly 10 people because he had an agenda. There was no secrecy behind it, there was no interpersonal motive.

He's not the only person to wrongly kill a black person (in this case people). But he's also the only example in recent history that I can remember single handedly trying to create something much bigger than himself (a war between white and black people) via an offensive attack. His actions and demeanor display psychological similarities to other mass shooters who had motives other than race. That's important to remember. We want to find ways to displace the possibility of these types of shootings happening in the future and doing so requires we take a comprehensive approach at the analysis of this situation.

No matter the motive it's awful and horrible and terrifying. But him being called mentally-ill is not done so that we would take pity on him and absolve him of his actions. It's done so we can raise awareness that we need to address that end of the spectrum as well to avoid future situations.

Not directly related to the church but......



PRYOR — The distribution of leaflets that encouraged people to boycott two Mexican restaurants in Pryor and threatened individuals in mixed marriages hasn’t violated any law, Mayes County officials say.

“lt’s disgusting,” said Capt. Rod Howell with the Mayes County sheriff’s office. “It’s appalling, but it’s not a crime.”

The fliers were passed out Sunday, urging Pryor residents to boycott Maggie's Mexican Kitchen and El Humilde Mexican Restaurant.

“I hope they get a lot of businesses from the community to show their support,” Howell said. “I feel sorry for them — that they have to go through this.”

The leaflets bear the name Traditionalist Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Northeastern Oklahoma Klavern and include several references to mixed marriages.

“The leaflets took Scripture on mix-marriages and twisted them to suit their racist’s beliefs,” Howell said.

They refer to white women with mixed-race children as “filthy white whores,” Howell said.

The fliers also mentioned the group has been watching and documenting the whereabouts of individuals involved in mixed-raced marriages and relationships, he said.

“We are working with the Pryor Police Department and will continue to investigate the matter to make sure they are not attached to a fringe group,” Howell said.

Howell said this is the second instance when leaflets were passed around the community. The first occurrence was on Martin Luther King Jr. Day.

A telephone message left with the media department of the Traditionalist Knights of the Ku Klux Klan was not returned.

Pryor is in Mayes County about 45 miles northeast of Tulsa.

White supremacists distribute fliers in Pryor | News OK (http://newsok.com/kkk-papers-oklahoma-town-with-disgusting-flyers-again/article/5429551)

I don't think these are attacks on Christianity as some say but pure racism....


A predominately black church in North Carolina was intentionally set ablaze, authorities said.

Charlotte fire officials are looking into whether Wednesday morning’s arson at Briar Creek Baptist Church was a hate crime, NBC station WCNC reported. Although there were no initial indications that the crime was motivated by hate, officials haven’t ruled it out, fire investigator David Williams told the station.

The blaze caused about $250,000 in damage.

Pastor Mannix Kinsey said the church’s congregation has already forgiven the culprit. “Buildings can be repaired, they can be built over,” Kinsey told WCNC. “This is the opportunity for God to touch the hearts of individuals.”

Crews arrived at the church about 1 a.m. on Wednesday after residents in a nearby apartment complex reported seeing flames. It took more than 75 firefighters to bring the three-alarm inferno under control.

While the sanctuary was spared, the ceiling collapsed and there was significant damage to an area used for a kids’ summer camp, WCNC reported.

Investigators are examining hate as a possible motive because Briar Creek Baptist Church is an 85-member church with a mostly black congregation, according to WCNC.

The arson attack came a week after a mass shooting at a historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina.