Instead of sending the Hall Capital thread off on a tangent, I would like to dedicate a thread that specifically deals with the Classen Blvd corridor and any development that directly fronts the street. I feel a serious discussion needs to take place ASAP to start figuring out what actions need to take place to enhance what Classen brings to the table in Oklahoma City.

First, let's establish why it's important:

A. It connects from North to South, the following notable locations:

Nichols Hills and NW 63rd/Western (Chesapeake, MidFirst, Glimcher's NH Plaza + Classen Curve + Future Development)
Belle Isle + Penn Square Mall + 50 Penn Place + NW Expressway + Classen Circle
Memorial Park + NW 36th St. + thousands of smaller lot single-family homes (within walking distance, this spanning nearly the entirety of the road)
Asian District
Oklahoma City University
Uptown 23rd Street
Gold Dome
Old American Fidelity Campus (Rick Dowell)
Classen School of Advanced Studies
Key inner-city neighborhoods such as Mesta Park, Gatewood, Putnam Heights (further North)
The Plaza
NW10th Street
St. Anthony's Complex
Arts District
Film Row
Farmer's Market
Wheeler District


B. It has been identified as an early route expansion for the street car in ACOG's 2015 commuter corridor study: It would prove to be a major ridership area, and if OKC indeed invests near a $1B for this route alone, Classen needs to be a top notch street and will of course bring TOD in a major way.

C. It intersects NW Expressway which is one of the busiest corridor's in the entire state, and is therefore one of the most important arteries that brings people in from the NW to downtown.

D. It remains WOEFULLY undervalued and therefore things can be done to establish guidelines right now that will help for the future.

Here are the steps I would like to see the city take in the next few years:

1. Initiate a comprehensive analysis of the corridor: Commercial strengths/weaknesses. Walkability/Bikability/Drivability. Quality of public transit, and potential impact of future public transit. Historic Buildings. Etc. Etc. Etc.

2. Create a long-term plan that enhances the corridor as a multi-modal artery (walking, biking, driving, street car) that attracts development that is mixed-use in nature.

3. Create guidelines that match the plan and a design review corridor that has oversight to make sure that development that takes place does so in a healthy manner

4. Identify every building that fronts Classen and is historically/architecturally significant so that ideas can begin to form on how to best incorporate those buildings into the overall design. Some of these buildings will present a challenge, but if we address it before any questions come up, we'll be in better shape.

I feel like this is a good start to the discussion. Classen is billions of dollars away from being world class, but when you consider how many major points of interest it feeds, it is certainly worth that kind of investment.

Thy turn into a f Sargent with a orange fact I love in La county they not serve orphaned because Orange County is close to here but they won't serve strawberries.



I just want to tell u so u come in retirhsz

Mope

You know, they say you know who you love by who you contact when you're drunk.

Glad to know you still love us, PluPan!!!

Classen has such potential I am surprised it isn't farther along. In the near term, I think the key pieces to get things going are the Gold Dome, the Rick Dowell development, and of course the Hall Capital development. It really needs to be brought into the conversation because I don't think a lot of people are really thinking about where it falls into the overall revitalization vision for downtown OKC. As I've said with Core to Shore, now is the time to develop a vision and guide development in that direction, before major mistakes have been made.

One thing I would really like to see on Classen is tribute paid to its Route 66 origins in some way. There are a lot of great placemaking possibilities there.

Discussions such as those that you propose have been ongoing for months, with the City promising to implement as many of the resulting recommendations as is feasible. Perhaps you should attend this presentation: ULI Oklahoma: A Better Classen Public Presentation - ULI Oklahoma (http://oklahoma.uli.org/event/uli-oklahoma-better-classen-public-presentation/)

By the way, significant private investment is already underway along the corridor. It will look very, very different five years from now.

One thing I would really like to see on Classen is tribute paid to its Route 66 origins in some way. There are a lot of great placemaking possibilities there.
Those "Route 66 origins" don't have a huge amount of basis in fact, although it's true that in the 1930s 66 ran along the boulevard from NW 23 to NW 39. The true origin of the boulevard, though, was Anton Classen's initiation of "sprawl" when he developed the area and built the streetcar line out to Belle Isle (when it was an amusement park).

In the glory years of Route 66, it came into OKC from Edmond by way of Kelly, swerved west to Lincoln where I44 now runs, went south on Lincoln to NE 23 at the Capitol, west on 23rd to Classen, north on Classen to NW 39, then west on 39th to Bethany. Around 1940, the alignment changed to continue west on 23rd to Portland, then north on Portland to 39th, bypassing the boulevard entirely and avoiding much of the residential area. Remnants of the curve at NW 39 and Portland remain today though you have to look closely to see it behind the SW corner of the intersection. Portland marked the west city limits in the 40's, and as recently as 1948 everything west of there was farmland.

There's a connection, true, but it's pretty remote. The Milk Bottle is almost the only remnant of it, but the "BEVO" sign built into the brickwork of a building a bit to the north is also historic...

This is free and open to the public for anyone who would prefer to be genuinely informed on this topic and perhaps even to participate in solutions: ULI Oklahoma: A Better Classen Public Presentation - ULI Oklahoma (http://oklahoma.uli.org/event/uli-oklahoma-better-classen-public-presentation/)

Thy turn into a f Sargent with a orange fact I love in La county they not serve orphaned because Orange County is close to here but they won't serve strawberries.



I just want to tell u so u come in retirhsz

Embarrassing per usual. Pete, could you delete this stuff? This is an important topic for this forum to focus on.

This is free and open to the public for anyone who would prefer to be genuinely informed on this topic and perhaps even to participate in solutions: ULI Oklahoma: A Better Classen Public Presentation - ULI Oklahoma (http://oklahoma.uli.org/event/uli-oklahoma-better-classen-public-presentation/)

This looks like a very exciting event! I'll miss it by a week sadly. I hope people on here can mark their calendars for next week and go!

I'm trying to clear my schedule to go and should be able to make it.

Teo, please go if possible.

You need to lend your perspective and get involved in this movement.

The public meetings that I want to go to are always when I am out of town on business.

The ULI meeting that Urbanized shared is today @5:30 until 7:00.

It will be held at City Pres Church: 829 NW 13th Street, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

I will be in attendance and hope a few more can make it. It would be great to bring the information back to the forum from different vantage points and hopefully get some talks going on here that could be used in future meetings about the betterment of Classen.

FWIW, a number of regular forum contributors and readers have participated in these meetings from the outset, and the initial effort was widely discussed here 6 months ago, and also covered in the Gazette and Oklahoman (and probably The Journal Record too).

I and others have mentioned this before on the board, but if anyone here actually wants to move beyond chatting about these types of issues online and participate directly in such processes, the best place to start these days would probably be to join the local chapter of the Urban Land Institute (ULI). Welcome to ULI Oklahoma (http://oklahoma.uli.org/)

I was able to participate in the last event, which was great. I won't be able to make it tonight, but any chance the presentation will be recorded and posted online?

Teo/Urbanized, how did it go?

It was mainly a presentation of research done for areas between Reno and 23rd: What problems exist, how they could be addressed in the short, medium, and long terms, and how we could enhance the area aesthetically.

There was a major emphasis on pedestrian/bicycle friendly issues particularly as it pertained to crossing Classen to the other side of the street.

It sounds as though a zoning/design review overlay is coming very soon to the west side of Classen.

There were some great examples of small, cost-effective "try-outs" that could be used to improve the quality of experience for all forms of traffic, and is something that, IMO, really needs to start occurring more often in other areas of the city as well. They should soon be posting the presentation materials here: A Better Classen Boulevard | The Institute for Quality Communities (http://iqc.ou.edu/project/classen/) and they will have tons of examples of things that could be done.

This has been a great start to the discussion, and it seems like those who are super passionate about it are doing a great job of leading the discussion as it pertains to Classen from Reno to 23rd.

However, there needs to be more focus from 23rd to NW Expressway, and it needs some leadership other than those who have really stepped up on the south portion so as to not stretch those people's resources too thin. Meg Salyer has clearly been very involved in the public process and her ward covers the area from Reno to 23rd. The area north of 23rd belongs to Ed Shadid, and so we need to get some leaders working with him and city planners, and then there needs to be conversations with "Classen South" people.

Finally, the street car is a major question mark that looms. At the end of the day, there is not in the next 50 years ever going to be much in the way of destinations West of Classen…there's simply way too much residential. So in order for this to be the compelling Boulevard it could be there needs to be a compelling way to transport pedestrians (and even some bikers) from 63rd/Western to the Farmer's Market, and I personally believe that the street car is that transportation. If that ends up not coming to pass, I think we may be at an impasse for improving North Classen into a compelling Urban Boulevard.

KFOR had a nice presentation about this on their late news tonight.

Building a better Classen Boulevard | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2015/06/23/building-a-better-classen-boulevard/)

Teo, do you not consider OCU and the Plaza District destinations? I certainly do...

Here is Steve's update on the meeting along with his video interview with Shane Hampton and Jonathan Dodson.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5429559&headline=Area%20developer%20starts%20study%20to%20 create%20initiative%20leading%20to%20%27a%20better %20Classen%27

Teo, do you not consider OCU and the Plaza District destinations? I certainly do...

"*much* in the way of destinations."

The Plaza district in all its glory and my Alma Mater, much as I love them both, do not merit hundreds of millions of public and private investment dollars to develop a corridor that otherwise works great for what it is: An auto-centric thoroughfare. And when you throw in the cost of the street car, the total investment becomes billions.

The CHK, Midfirst, Belle Isle, Penn Square connections, combined with all the residential between 23rd and NW Expressway are way important for the long-term success of the Boulevard, and the overall health of the connection between Downtown and NW OKC.

If we're serious about making Oklahoma City and not just downtown more walkable, this is one of the most important long-term projects in the city.

I think we're moving forward correctly if over the next few years we find some stop gaps for issues south of 23rd and maybe even ~5 years address on a more permanent basis everything between 13th and Reno. But how we approach 13th north to 23rd will have a major impact on how well things work from 23rd to NW Expressway, so we need to make sure we're envisioning the connection correctly.

With what I saw today, and knowing that this has only been about a 6 months process, I'm confident that we will have a lot of success as a city moving forward. I think it will be harder than we realize if we don't get more people involved in the process, but not impossible. We need to get more people involved, and hopefully get some talented people to come in and create some tangible resources that can be used to "sell" the public on why this is a worthy investment of what will be a very considerable amount of our resources.

Billions..?

Finally, the street car is a major question mark that looms.


Meg Salyer said something about Bus Rapid Transit, and I've heard similar comments before. I think long-term most people in the know see Classen as a corridor for Bus Rapid Transit rather than a streetcar. I am not sure where this belief originates or whether it is codified in planning documents, but it is kind of the conventional wisdom that someday there will be BRT up Classen and out on NW Expressway.

I'm not sure we even need true BRT on Classen. The traffic congestion is rarely bad enough to require a dedicated lane or larger buses. If existing route 5 were extended to include the Farmer's Market and frequency were increased from 30 minutes to 10-15, and architectural stops were placed at major intersections, a relatively low investment would make a significant improvement in transportation on Classen.

NW Expressway could really benefit from BRT.

Does anybody think that narrowing Classen from six lanes to four lanes is a good idea? Personally I don't see it. It's a major auto-centric thoroughfare that I currently think should stay that way. That doesn't mean I don't support improvements to the corridor but at this point in time I see much more harm than benefit that would come from narrowing the thoroughfare. Now in 20-30 years, if there is walkable, urban development lining the street, it might make more sense, but for now I don't see it.

COTPA's chief planner is a BRT advocate and has been in the past not overly supportive of streetcar. There are other issues at bay with the politics in investigating BRT.

However, the official ACOG Corridor Study selected expanding the streetcar all the way up Classen from NW 13th to the 63rd Street Commutter Rail stop.

Assuming the RTA is formed, presumably they would follow their own study's findings.

I can confirm that Larry loves him some BRT. When we went on the ULI trip to San Antonio last fall he was giddy as a kid under a Christmas tree when we checked out one of their BRT vehicles.

Billions..?

If I recall, the Light Rail (I said street car upthread) is CAPEX of right around $1B. Then you include development that would front Classen from Reno to NW Expressway and I'm pretty sure $2B would not be out of reach. I should have said a couple billion instead of billions to be more clear.

Does anybody think that narrowing Classen from six lanes to four lanes is a good idea? Personally I don't see it. It's a major auto-centric thoroughfare that I currently think should stay that way. That doesn't mean I don't support improvements to the corridor but at this point in time I see much more harm than benefit that would come from narrowing the thoroughfare. Now in 20-30 years, if there is walkable, urban development lining the street, it might make more sense, but for now I don't see it.

One of the things they mentioned was that Classen will soon have direct access to I-40 because Western is getting cut off at the Boulevard. That has the potential to increase traffic between Reno and 13th, but I highly suspect it won't.

Yesterday they mentioned that the traffic count from Reno to 13th is 8k-15k a day, and from 13th to 23rd is like 20k - 25k. So I think south of 13th that 4-lanes is ideal, plus it would help us address the inconsistency issues in the sidewalks in this area.

And honestly, you might even be able to drop it to 4 lanes at 16th.

North of 23rd, I suspect we wouldn't even consider dropping to 4 lanes until we were installing BRT or Light Rail. Again, we haven't studied north of 23rd enough yet to really know.

Slides are Up:

A Better Classen Boulevard | The Institute for Quality Communities (http://iqc.ou.edu/project/classen/)

Slides 32/33/34 demonstrate an example of the approach the steering committee recommends: Short-term, easy solutions (cheap, quick, impermanent solutions). Mid-term solutions that require a bit more money. Long-term, final decisions that would likely require bonding. From what I understand, they'd like to implement some Short-term solutions to various problems by the end of the year.

Really like this idea from that presentation:

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/classenblvdjunefinal-150624150248-lva1-app6892/95/a-better-classen-presentation-33-1024.jpg?cb=1435158396

Or even better, this:

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/classenblvdjunefinal-150624150248-lva1-app6892/95/a-better-classen-presentation-34-1024.jpg?cb=1435158396

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/classenblvdjunefinal-150624150248-lva1-app6892/95/a-better-classen-presentation-19-1024.jpg?cb=1435158396

Or even better, this:

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/classenblvdjunefinal-150624150248-lva1-app6892/95/a-better-classen-presentation-34-1024.jpg?cb=1435158396

This would be awesome.

The difference between that and the below is all cosmetic. That's why we need to implement some of the latter now. If we decide that it's not functioning as we want it to, we can make slight modifications.

This, btw, could be done all over the city, and would be a GREAT way to pilot a more comprehensive and user-friendly bike-program.

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/classenblvdjunefinal-150624150248-lva1-app6892/95/a-better-classen-presentation-32-1024.jpg?cb=1435158396

I'm glad that dedicated (protected) bike lanes got so much traction. During early discussions my understanding was that there was not a lot of excitement about them from the City.

My favorite takeaway was the bike boxes, already in use in Portland and San Francisco. It was a mild revelation for me. It uses the built environment (in this case only paint on the pavement) to prioritize bicycles at intersections, and wordlessly communicates to autos that bicycles are an accepted use on the street, and that they should cooperate with bicycles at crossings. Jon Dodson discussed how difficult it was to get a family across Classen from HH/Mesta in the direction of Plaza. He said that if traffic is backed up at all you sometimes can't even make it to the crossing before the light turns. This allows bikes to creep up their lane and position themselves in front of the cars, so that they have a good shot at crossing immediately after the light turns green.


https://vimeo.com/12500191

We have the painted bike lanes here in Southern California and they really do make a difference.

I'm glad that dedicated (protected) bike lanes got so much traction. During early discussions my understanding was that there was not a lot of excitement about them from the City.

My favorite takeaway was the bike boxes, already in use in Portland and San Francisco. It was a mild revelation for me. It uses the built environment (in this case only paint on the pavement) to prioritize bicycles at intersections, and wordlessly communicates to autos that bicycles are an accepted use on the street, and that they should cooperate with bicycles at crossings. Jon Dodson discussed how difficult it was to get a family across Classen from HH/Mesta in the direction of Plaza. He said that if traffic is backed up at all you sometimes can't even make it to the crossing before the light turns. This allows bikes to creep up their lane and position themselves in front of the cars, so that they have a good shot at crossing immediately after the light turns green.


https://vimeo.com/12500191

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_stop_line

Portland has had to do some fine-tuning on them, as bike/auto accidents have actually INCREASED since their installation, but some of that can be attributed to increased overall ridership. There is also the thought that the bike boxes have made both drivers and riders a bit more blasé about each other, as if they don't have to pay as much attention since everything is taken care of with the lane configuration. If that is truly the case, there are other enhancements that can add to the safety.

I'd really like to see dedicated bike lanes on Classen added all the way up to the Chesapeake campus.

It could be a collector for all the surrounding neighborhoods and help move people downtown and to the Plaza District, Uptown and beyond.

The traffic counts north of 23rd may be higher but there are far few lights as you head north and traffic always moves really well through there. I say take the whole thing down to 4 lanes with dedicated bike likes in both directions.

I don't remember who linked this (I think I saw it on Twitter but it may have been someone who posts here too), but I watched this a few weeks back and it seemed like an excellent idea.


https://vimeo.com/86721046

Multi Modal was a term thrown around a lot (and even still, perhaps not enough). So there's definitely an emphasis on bikability.

Depending on how the long term plan with Light Rail/BRT affects the street layout, there may be plenty of room to leave the street at 6 lanes, and get the space for the extra lanes by expanding pavement on the easement. But that's exactly the kind of work that needs to be measured and engineered.

I've shared it several times, but this has a lot of elements of what I'd like to see in Classen North of 23rd.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v60/Teo9969/Screen%20Shot%202015-06-24%20at%203.27.18%20PM.png

I'd take away the on-street parking since it is a legit Boulevard, and put in the dedicated-bikelines that provide a barrier between the sidewalk and street.

I think we're about 20 - 30 feet shorter across from sidewalk to sidewalk, but perhaps we have more easement we could use to widen the street. to accommodate 6 lanes

Portland has had to do some fine-tuning on them, as bike/auto accidents have actually INCREASED since their installation, but some of that can be attributed to increased overall ridership. There is also the thought that the bike boxes have made both drivers and riders a bit more blasé about each other, as if they don't have to pay as much attention since everything is taken care of with the lane configuration. If that is truly the case, there are other enhancements that can add to the safety.

In my part of town, (which is not Portland proper, but rather a suburb) cyclists rarely follow traffic laws. The most frequent violation I see is riding opposite direction. Second most is riding on sidewalks and entering intersections as a pedestrian.

It creates a major point of conflict. As a driver, making a right turn at an intersection, you wait for pedestrians in the crosswalk. Then as they are clear, you start to move through the turn as you should. And then a cyclist comes jetting off the sidewalk behind/to the right of you into the intersection on the crosswalk. Unless you can see them approaching through your mirror you will narrowly avoid a potentially fatal conflict.

If they would stay in the bike lane, or if one is not provided, ride on the street, it would be safer for everyone.

That's what concerns me with Oklahoma, new cyclists likely do not know the rules, and even worse yet, is that OK drivers don't know or won't follow the rules for sharing. At least in Portland, pretty much all of the drivers here understand sharing with cyclists and pedestrians, so it is much safer for everyone. Because if the cyclist is in the wrong, the driver will still be cautious. I can't personally recall many instances in Oklahoma where drivers properly share the road with cyclists. In fact, more often than not, I saw drivers trying to run them off the road, or make them as nervous as possible.

I don't remember who linked this (I think I saw it on Twitter but it may have been someone who posts here too), but I watched this a few weeks back and it seemed like an excellent idea.


https://vimeo.com/86721046

Probably Sid

Sometimes people on this board pick massive fights with massive icons expend tons of energy to get absolutely no where. In fact if anything they just get depressed because they lose 100-0, had they put up no fight still would lose 100-0. 499 in particular.

This though, this is something that everyone's energy should be expended on. This is winnable. These are the "battles" (I say that loosely no one is going to fight just the bureaucracy.) that are worth time and energy on.

I don't remember who linked this (I think I saw it on Twitter but it may have been someone who posts here too), but I watched this a few weeks back and it seemed like an excellent idea.


https://vimeo.com/86721046

I love that, thanks for sharing. Just shared it on Twitter and copied Jon Dodson, Shane Hampton and Meg. I'm sure they've seen it (especially Shane and Jon), but still, brilliant!

Classen is one of the few streets with sufficient capacity for the car volume. Instead of interfering with something that works, what about turning Western into that dedicated bike, bus or light rail route?

So how do they have this much pull with the ULI and the city? After three years the most ULI has come up with for Envision 240 is mowing and painting the underpasses. I like the Classen the area and am rooting for it but it would be nice if some of the love flowed south.

So how do they have this much pull with the ULI and the city? After three years the most ULI has come up with for Envision 240 is mowing and painting the underpasses. I like the Classen the area and am rooting for it but it would be nice if some of the love flowed south.

I agree... I'd love to see more improvement along 240, but according to the City's website for Envision 240 (http://www.okc.gov/planning/envision240/):

Next Steps: The South Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce has taken the lead to implement the report’s recommendations and communicate with the community. If you have questions or comments, contact Elaine Lyons, President of the South OKC Chamber, at (405) 634-1436.
So the Chamber has to take point on this one. But let's not derail this thread - perhaps we should create a dedicated thread for Envision 240.

Those "Route 66 origins" don't have a huge amount of basis in fact, although it's true that in the 1930s 66 ran along the boulevard from NW 23 to NW 39. The true origin of the boulevard, though, was Anton Classen's initiation of "sprawl" when he developed the area and built the streetcar line out to Belle Isle (when it was an amusement park).

In the glory years of Route 66, it came into OKC from Edmond by way of Kelly, swerved west to Lincoln where I44 now runs, went south on Lincoln to NE 23 at the Capitol, west on 23rd to Classen, north on Classen to NW 39, then west on 39th to Bethany. Around 1940, the alignment changed to continue west on 23rd to Portland, then north on Portland to 39th, bypassing the boulevard entirely and avoiding much of the residential area. Remnants of the curve at NW 39 and Portland remain today though you have to look closely to see it behind the SW corner of the intersection. Portland marked the west city limits in the 40's, and as recently as 1948 everything west of there was farmland.

There's a connection, true, but it's pretty remote. The Milk Bottle is almost the only remnant of it, but the "BEVO" sign built into the brickwork of a building a bit to the north is also historic...

Hey Jim, didn't somewhere in the mix, the alignment also changed to west on Britton from Kelly to Western then south to 39th ?.

11007

Based that on quite a bit of research.

There were also Alt-66 routes through OKC, but I didn't map those.

Classen is one of the few streets with sufficient capacity for the car volume. Instead of interfering with something that works, what about turning Western into that dedicated bike, bus or light rail route?

This is an issue of EXCESS capacity rather than sufficient capacity. Remember that there's no longer an exit onto Classen from I-40, so all of that exiting traffic ends up on Western instead. That's why there's such a disparity in traffic counts. There's no longer a need to have 6 lanes south of 13th Street. If that need no longer exists, then the excess lanes should be put to better use.

This is an issue of EXCESS capacity rather than sufficient capacity. Remember that there's no longer an exit onto Classen from I-40, so all of that exiting traffic ends up on Western instead. That's why there's such a disparity in traffic counts. There's no longer a need to have 6 lanes south of 13th Street. If that need no longer exists, then the excess lanes should be put to better use.
When the blvd is completed Classen and Western will be connected at Reno and Classen will be connected to the I-40 exit.

Not sure I have ever seen vehicle traffic issues on Classen. It could easily go to two lanes to support pedestrian and bike traffic.

Asking how they accomplished something is not derailing the thread in my opinion. Apparently this project will keep the influence and resources of the ULI and the city while other projects don't.

14677

I'm sure many of you have seen that this previously sidewalk-less stretch of Classen is finally getting a sidewalk. Long overdue. I'm surprised they are actually undertaking this because the significant endeavor of cutting through the hillsides along the street there. I need to stop and get a picture, it's interesting. One lane of Classen has been closed for a week or two while they've worked on this.

14678
This stretch for example is cut back all the way to the wooden fence and down even with the curb currently.

Thanks for sharing this.

I've seen more than one person in a wheelchair or pushing a baby buggy having to walk right on Classen (and further to the south as well) due to this issue.

There are actually lots of people out walking around in this area, as I previously lived pretty nearby.

Hopefully some improvements to pedestrian crossing at 16th and Classen will come after this. Its like playing frogger when crossing classen there. Maybe the pivot project apartments will spur that.