http://m.newsok.com/indianapolis-company-drops-51m-for-another-okc-area-shopping-center/article/5424924


Indianapolis-based Kite Properties bought Belle Isle Station Shopping Center for $51 million, county records show, expanding its already significant retail property holdings here.

I found this comment interesting considering the considerable derision for this shopping center.


For national retail chains, Belle Isle Station is second in Oklahoma City only to Penn Square Mall, next door, as a place to do business, Parrack said.

I found this comment interesting considering the considerable derision for this shopping center.

The derision of the shopping center comes from the fact that what it replaced had so much potential to be something really special. In addition, it was originally supposed to be a lifestyle center but a Wal-Mart strip shopping center was built instead. From a financial perspective though I am sure it has been very successful.

The derision of the shopping center comes from the fact that what it replaced had so much potential to be something really special. In addition, it was originally supposed to be a lifestyle center but a Wal-Mart strip shopping center was built instead. From a financial perspective though I am sure it has been very successful.

That's very true. Anyone trying to drive to that shopping center can attest to the difficulty in getting there due to the traffic. That is the main reason I hate going there. Even though we love what the Classen Curve area may be evolving into, I'm sure it has nothing close to the overall impact to OKC in tax dollars that this area does. Financial success does not always equal lifestyle success.

Just out of curiosity, what was there before?

Originally, back after OKC was founded it was a weekend destination, with a swimming area nd such. I think I read it was at the end of the streetcar line, at one point. Later there was a power plant there. It was closed but remained a destination for thrill-seekers to rummage through, before it was imploded.

Just out of curiosity, what was there before?

We celebrate our amazing history in Belle Isle... (http://www.wbina.com/Wilemans_Belle_Isle/History.html)

The amusement park was the most major piece of Bell Isle. I believe it was about twice the size of Frontier City too. A definite lost jewel.

The Walmart at Belle Isle is a sick joke. I've gone there a number of times and the parking lot is flooded with shopping carts. Being more toward the north side of town and near Nichols Hills, I would think it would be nicer than it is. But hopefully the developer can straighten it up a bit.

To the developers on the board. Is it possible to fix an area like this by adding mixed use with a big parking garage in the middle. Then maybe the current stores would face a small, somewhat walkable street of retail and all the parking could be hidden. My guess is that there's not enough room and/or financing to make something like that work...

The only way to fix Belle Isle Station would probably involve completely bulldozing it and starting over, which isn't going to happen. I can't really think of any way to retrofit it and do it well. It is what is called a "power center" in the shopping center world and is a successful one at that. That type of shopping center relies on the large parking lots and high visibility.

BTW, ULTA has signed a lease for this shopping center.

What is there to fix? From the developer's perspective, the place is doing awesome and has great traffic flow. There's no incentive to do anything else. Like it or not, it's a suburban area where people want to drive from store to store. You try to make a place like that into mixed use and it will kill it as far as traffic goes.

Don't take that to mean I don't support less strip center crap, but it's not always a good fit. And after all, the developer is the one that put their money into the place and they are VERY happy these days.

Bath and Body Works is opening another location in Belle Isle Station. The location inside Penn Square Mall will not be closing.

16793

Work has started on a J Crew Factory store directly west of Old Navy.

Not sure what this means for the stores in the OKC Outlets and Penn Square, if anything:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/jcrew110622a.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/jcrew110622c.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/jcrew110622b.jpg

To the developers on the board. Is it possible to fix an area like this by adding mixed use with a big parking garage in the middle. Then maybe the current stores would face a small, somewhat walkable street of retail and all the parking could be hidden. My guess is that there's not enough room and/or financing to make something like that work...

There is definitely plenty of room. You could fit probably 5 of the Main Street Parking Garages on the current parking lots. Tear down the crappier strip center where Pei Wei has been anchored for years and yeah, you could do A LOT.

This "Belle Isle Shopping" area is substantially larger than the area OAK is being planned on and, assuming OAK is successful, it only makes the land here that much more valuable. If Penn Square ever beefs up land usage, then that would help as well. This area from NHP to OAK is already the most important retail corridor in all of Oklahoma and has a chance to punch way above its weight for a city of this size.

So in terms of improving what this development brings to the table, I honestly think they will "have to" within 30 years because after OAK comes in and shows just how profitable it can be, owners will look to cash in or just re-develop and bring in a ton of business. Hopefully someone with some deep pockets comes in and buys the whole thing with the intention of putting serious money in to get some serious money out.

Agree with the above. This center got a lot of derision when it was built, for not being a very good use of such a prime property. Although it's unattractive and not built with good design characteristics, the surrounding affluence is making it kind of "sneakily" improve with REI and now J. Crew. Those are both stores that could easily be in the Oak or Classen Curve instead of this strip mall. If they worked on the aesthetics it could become a complement to what's around it and strengthen the retail environment of the area further.

I'm sure it's been said a few times on this board, but putting I-44 below grade would do wonders for this area in terms of economic development and walk/bike-ability.

I'm sure it's been said a few times on this board, but putting I-44 below grade would do wonders for this area in terms of economic development and walk/bike-ability.

Sounds nice, but it would be gridlocked come severe weather with everyone stopping their vehicles under there and area residents without storm shelters headed there!

Sounds nice, but it would be gridlocked come severe weather with everyone stopping their vehicles under there and area residents without storm shelters headed there!

don't think they were talking about a tunnel .

I think there would be some major concerns about drainage in the area.

don't think they were talking about a tunnel .

Not to get nit picky here, but below grade = below ground level, and tunnels can be found below ground level, but thank you.

don't think they were talking about a tunnel .
No it will just be below grade from what I understand. They could place a park cap or two at some point in the future making it some semi quasi tunnel but I doubt it happens and I don’t think it is needed here.

Not to get nit picky here, but below grade = below ground level, and tunnels can be found below ground level, but thank you.
Below grade just means below the surface of the ground. A tunnel though is below the surface of the ground isn’t the same thing. They’re just going to dig a trench for part of it and widen it to 4 lanes each way likely completely overhauling the Classen and NWE interchanges. They more than likely won’t cap it as making a tunnel would require expensive ventilation and anti fire systems.

PS, from I know ODOT has said very little about this project and it probably won’t happen until the 2030s.

Below grade is a term typically used to define parts of a building that are below adjacent ground grades.

Roadway designs have Existing Grade, Design, or Finished, Grade, and the materials used under the Design/Finished Grade are called Subgrade.

In all my years of civil engineering I have never heard of a road being referred to as below grade. I've never had the pleasure of working on a tunnel so I can't say what terminology is used for that type of engineering.

This is a below grade freeway:

https://www.cnu.org/sites/default/files/Buffalo_1.jpg

This is a tunnel:

https://mynorthwest.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/sr-99-tunnel-wsdot.jpg

I’m not an engineer so I could be wrong but while yes tunnels are technically “below grade,” the term below grade is used for depressed freeways that aren’t elevated, are not at grade, but are not tunnels. I-70 in east Denver was recently built as below grade with a small section that will have a park cap.

Currently I-44 in Belle Isle is considered “above grade” or “elevated.” It sounds like ODOT has said they intend on it being below grade. They haven’t released hardly any details on it. At some point if a road has a cap above it long enough it would be considered a tunnel a be subject to strict federal requirements on emissions and fire controls. Once again I’m not an engineer or a transportation expert this is just coming from observations I’ve had as an advocate watching projects unfold for over a decade. I could be wrong.

Where has ODOT talked about making this below grade? If so, that project is going to be positively horrendous because there's really no way to do it without shutting down the leg between Penn and the westbound Grand exit.

Where has ODOT talked about making this below grade? If so, that project is going to be positively horrendous because there's really no way to do it without shutting down the leg between Penn and the westbound Grand exit.
I’ve already posted links about it on the ODOT thread. It’s going to be a massive project so they are just starting to even mention it. It will require numerous studies and public meetings. They first mentioned the study during a commission meeting several years back.

This is a below grade freeway

I understood what everyone is talking about but I don't think below grade is the correct terminology.... Unfortunately I'm not 100% certain what the correct terminology would be but I doubt if we looked at the plans for that specific roadway that we would see the words "below grade" used anywhere on them.

If I had to take a scientific wild a$$ guess (yes that's a valid engineering term) I would call it a corridor.

I think there would be some major concerns about drainage in the area.

This is my thought why they wouldn't do below surface level. I-44 crosses the Deep Fork River and a channelized creek. it's possible but it'd take so much money and groundwork.

I can't imagine how they would redo I-44 to below grade and successfully handle the I-44/Northwest Expressway/drainage canal interchange.

Where has ODOT talked about making this below grade? If so, that project is going to be positively horrendous because there's really no way to do it without shutting down the leg between Penn and the westbound Grand exit.

I had heard quiet discussions about making it at-grade, but not below-grade.

I think we should just delete the whole stretch from I-235 to US-74 and make it a boulevard. :cool: