I don't know what to say Pete, the Supreme Court ruled cities can make whatever zoning rules they want.

Then, the City should do this. And I'm not aware of any such initiative and even if they started today, it would not impact this project.

Until they do, it's silly to talk about holding developers to anything other than the existing standards.

JTF, please point me to a similar neighborhood where the city controls the aesthetics and all design criteria for the entire area and where there are multiple private developers, and where it isn't an urban renewal district where the city owns and controls the land. I would like to google and see. I am sure you have multiple examples where the city tells the developer what their buildings must look like and they just do it. Just would like to see what you are really talking about and where exactly it is being done. I'm never too old to learn.

Here is one I posted earlier for residential construction in Roankoe, VA.


http://www.roanokeva.gov/85256A8D0062AF37/vwContentByKey/C209EC71F1EA98F48525796B00632B9C/$File/PatternBook.pdf

Then, the City should do this. And I'm not aware of any such initiative and even if they started today, it would not impact this project.

Until they do, it's silly to talk about holding developers to anything other than the existing standards.

I agree. I've been saying the City should do this for at least 2 years. That is why I get a little peaved when City officials claim existing regulations aren't adequate. They are in charge of the regulations - change them if they aren't adequate. They seem to able to fast-track millions of dollars to sporting goods retailers, but things like this take years.

Here is one I posted earlier for residential construction in Roankoe, VA.


http://www.roanokeva.gov/85256A8D0062AF37/vwContentByKey/C209EC71F1EA98F48525796B00632B9C/$File/PatternBook.pdf

Not residential, but a downtown or central business area with high rises, mid rises, etc. I just am not aware of a city that imposes a strict design template on multi developer multi block areas of private development.

Does anyone arguing against "STRICT" design guidelines really support this Best Western being approved?

Let's get back to the topic...

Well, I don't mind the Best Western being approved, just not that design. That being said, I'm not sure there's even an intention to build that Best Western as presented. There was tons of hand wringing about the Fairfield, but I'm actually ok with what finally came out as the design. Some street level retail in that building would have been nice, but probably not realistic to expect.

Being wary, and giving feedback on this project is one thing. But panicking or doom and gloom prognostications don't really benefit anyone.

If anything, I'm just shocked that developed are already willing to start building in this area, considering how warzone/third world it looks.

In these "off the beaten path" locations street level retail isn't as important as just interacting with the street is. Take the Holiday Inn Express as an example. Their lobby has large windows that make the interior easily visible from the sidewalk. You would almost swear there is a coffee shop in there. In fact, I am wondering if they actually do have a cafe.

Does anyone arguing against "STRICT" design guidelines really support this Best Western being approved?

Let's get back to the topic...

There is a difference between strict control and total control.

And no, this is not at all supportable in the current design.

There is a difference between strict control and total control.

And no, this is not at all supportable in the current design.

Then we all agree. There is no reason to overload yet another thread with ten pages of OKC Talk versus Kerry...

This Best Western can't come to pass. If they want to build an appropriate Best Western, sure. The question is whether our current design review can/will do anything. Those of you who occasionally chastise standards (including Pete) should take this scenario as more evidence that OKC desperately needs real standards.

We don't need Kerry's standards per se. I appreciate Kerry's role as the urban design Tea Party I guess. That said, we need to get on this issue yesterday...we all know what needs to happen. This will require City Council action. Where are Greenwell, Shadid, Salyer, White, McAtee, and Pettis? Are Shadid and Stonecipher (whom i only question for being new) part of the pro-growth coalition or not?

Those of us who live in certain wards need to get on the horn and demand that OKC adopt some standards that protect investment, including but not limited to our own. We need this to happen before we lose more historic building stock and before the streetcar incites even more fast-paced infill. OKC is a fast-growing city, but this is beginning to spiral out of control. This is how cities have "false start" development booms rather than lasting growth. You HAVE to create a place where people want to be, because they can just go somewhere else.

This Best Western is shocking. Something about OKC is telling Best Western this is appropriate for a park-front, right on I-40, downtown/C2S location close to the river. This is NOT Best Western's first draft in other cities.

Then we all agree. There is no reason to overload yet another thread with ten pages of OKC Talk versus Kerry...

I'll drag you guys along kicking and screaming if I have to. :)

This Best Western can't come to pass. If they want to build an appropriate Best Western, sure. The question is whether our current design review can/will do anything. Those of you who occasionally chastise standards (including Pete) should take this scenario as more evidence that OKC desperately needs real standards.

We don't need Kerry's standards per se. I appreciate Kerry's role as the urban design Tea Party I guess. That said, we need to get on this issue yesterday...we all know what needs to happen. This will require City Council action. Where are Greenwell, Shadid, Salyer, White, McAtee, and Pettis? Are Shadid and Stonecipher (whom i only question for being new) part of the pro-growth coalition or not?

Those of us who live in certain wards need to get on the horn and demand that OKC adopt some standards that protect investment, including but not limited to our own. We need this to happen before we lose more historic building stock and before the streetcar incites even more fast-paced infill. OKC is a fast-growing city, but this is beginning to spiral out of control. This is how cities have "false start" development booms rather than lasting growth. You HAVE to create a place where people want to be, because they can just go somewhere else.

This Best Western is shocking. Something about OKC is telling Best Western this is appropriate for a park-front, right on I-40, downtown/C2S location close to the river. This is NOT Best Western's first draft in other cities.

All great points.

You have developments like the Steelyard and the new residential being proposed in Film Row that are top notch, then you still have things like the Staybridge Suites being approved. If this Best Western is approved, it will be a total slap in the face to developers who actually invested in proposing something of quality since it is much, much worse than even the worst developments that have already been approved. My guess is that this developer is doing what some other developers in OKC have done; proposed something so outrageously bad that it makes them look good when the city "compromises" them up to the bare minimum.

I also agree about creating a city where people want to be and that fact that fuels more growth. Would you say OKC has reached that point?

I think Kerry's standards are appropriate for the Core to Shore area. If there is any district that the city should NOT adopt a "take what we can get" or "better than crappy.." policy its this. This is about protecting both public and private investment and learning from past mistakes.

It's concerning that Best Western would even pitch the standard prototype in this location whether or not it actually gets built that way.

This is NOT Best Western's first draft in other cities.

Much of chain hotel development is discretionary by the franchisee. The chain offers MINIMUM facility standards and branding standards. For the franchisee to start out with such a poor proposal is an insult. I understand that it is easy and cheap to get the process started this way, but what does that tell you about the developer?

I totally agree with Spartan that the time to change standards is NOW. We can't do anything about what hasn't happened, but we can change what WILL happen. And platitudes and theories on social media and boards doesn't do it. There are political ways to do it and that takes organized effort to stay on top of the council representatives, to educate them, to cajole them, to work to get them ousted if they don't change. THIS is what they understand.

All great points.

You have developments like the Steelyard and the new residential being proposed in Film Row that are top notch, then you still have things like the Staybridge Suites being approved. If this Best Western is approved, it will be a total slap in the face to developers who actually invested in proposing something of quality since it is much, much worse than even the worst developments that have already been approved. My guess is that this developer is doing what some other developers in OKC have done; proposed something so outrageously bad that it makes them look good when the city "compromises" them up to the bare minimum.

I also agree about creating a city where people want to be and that fact that fuels more growth. Would you say OKC has reached that point?

I think Kerry's standards are appropriate for the Core to Shore area. If there is any district that the city should NOT adopt a "take what we can get" or "better than crappy.." policy its this. This is about protecting both public and private investment and learning from past mistakes.

It's concerning that Best Western would even pitch the standard prototype in this location whether or not it actually gets built that way.

How do we know that the Film Row residential will be "top notch?" Because Steve Lackmeyer says so? I have a high degree of trust placed in Steve, but we need to see more than innuendo from anybody regardless of how trustworthy. So far all we know is a mixture of historic preservation and historic demolition. We keep doing this where we ameliorate our urban design concerns by constantly shifting the focus toward some unspecified future project that will supposedly raise the bar.

Achieving benchmarks in locality development isn't about reaching a certain point, which OKC thinks it has, as much as it is about constantly evolving and raising the bar. I would argue that Deep Deuce, Automobile Alley, Bricktown, and Film Row should also be protected from low-ball projects that just want to take advantage of the hard work invested in remaking those districts... but yes let's certainly protect future investments in Core2Shore as well.

Staybridge Suites
ALL of Lower Bricktown
Chase Bank
Bricktown Canal putt putt and High-Flyer
Rick Dowell buildings and garages
499 Sheridan parking garages and demo's
Core 2 Shore law firm building
Crosstown Boulevard designs
Bricktown Fire Station
East Bricktown gas station
Red Cross office bldg on Lincoln
OIPA on Lincoln
3rd and Walnut remuddle
Santa Fe Garage

I could go on and on with just recent projects. The point that I am making is that we act as if the 1970s urban renewal eyesores like the Veolia chiller plant on EKG and basically the entire EKG corridor are mistakes of the past. The reality is that we are operating the same way today and keep churning out future mistakes. This is the OKC way.

We had and still could have a wedding cake of a city, but we are slowly remixing it into a beige concrete and EIFS tapioca. I wish we would stop that.

And it is time we quit calling 4 story stick built apartment complexes and limited service hotels as "quality developments". At least the new Film Row is incorporating a high end hotel.

Much of chain hotel development is discretionary by the franchisee. The chain offers MINIMUM facility standards and branding standards. For the franchisee to start out with such a poor proposal is an insult. I understand that it is easy and cheap to get the process started this way, but what does that tell you about the developer?

More than anything it tells me that they lack a vision that they want to bring to fruition in the area. If you don't have a vision for how you're going to positively impact an area through development, it comes off that your only real vision is a thought bubble full of these: $$$$$$$$$


I totally agree with Spartan that the time to change standards is NOW. We can't do anything about what hasn't happened, but we can change what WILL happen. And platitudes and theories on social media and boards doesn't do it. There are political ways to do it and that takes organized effort to stay on top of the council representatives, to educate them, to cajole them, to work to get them ousted if they don't change. THIS is what they understand.

Is this really a city-council thing or is it a city staff thing? Obviously the council can pressure the city staff, but can the council actually motion to change city ordinance or can they only approve a city-staff initiated change of ordinance?

Staff (as directed by Jim Couch) seem to have gotten more conservative in their interpretation of city code. It seems like Plan OKC is where most efforts are being directed, rather than actual projects going through the approval process now.

Oftentimes cities will slowly push the envelope through interpretation of city code. Russell Claus seemed willing to do this. It just seems as though the current planning department would prefer that evolving standards come from council, which has preferred to stay out of this issue.

I wish that OKC took better advantage of its political process through the council. A lot of cities are entirely governed by "at-large" representatives, in which neighborhoods have little direct input. OKC's political structure is favorable toward more public involvement, but weekday morning council meetings and huge wards have negated that. OKC's wards don't correspond to any particular areas of the city, so mostly lack any kind of community identity. Shadid's ward for instance goes from Cleveland and Crown Heights up to the apartments along NW 122nd Street. It's a weird ward, and yet it's probably the most concise council ward that we have.

And it is time we quit calling 4 story stick built apartment complexes and limited service hotels as "quality developments". At least the new Film Row is incorporating a high end hotel.

I get what you are saying. I think the only hotels currently built in Bricktown that are actually quality is the aLoft and the Holiday Inn Express. The Hilton Garden Inn isn't bad either. The Springhill Suites, Staybridge Suites, Residence Inn, and many others are atrocities. It's unfortunate the Canopy is no longer happening, at least at the original proposed location.


More than anything it tells me that they lack a vision that they want to bring to fruition in the area. If you don't have a vision for how you're going to positively impact an area through development, it comes off that your only real vision is a thought bubble full of these: $$$$$$$$$

That is always going to be the case with some developers which is why standards are necissary. I am sure they could build the Best Western exactly as it is in the prototype and it would be a HUGE money maker and that would be good enough for the developer. It would be detrimental to the overall vision of Core to Shore however and its an insult to the city and other developers who have invested in quality proposals. These developers obviously don't care about the city or Core to Shore or they would have started with a better proposal.