View Full Version : Dwellings at SoSA



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Pete
10-04-2015, 12:45 PM
The reason that there is so little for sale vs. rent is because property values downtown are rapidly appreciating and developers want to buy and hold, not sell off.

Also, it's been crazy easy to get loans on apartments because they have done so well, while condos historically have been very hit and miss in OKC.

I had one developer of a large urban project tell me that you almost have to go with local lenders and most of them are skeptical of condo projects.

wsucougz
10-04-2015, 04:40 PM
Interesting note on this from the SOSA Facebook page:

***********
The developer's application to replat the land to create a subdivision of 14 modern tract homes ("Dwellings @ SoSA") is being considered by The City of Oklahoma City Planning Commission this Thursday at 1:30pm. Unfortunately, as currently proposed, the project requires variances for a number of public safety issues and has been flagged for non-compliance by several City departments. It will be interesting to see how the City weighs these concerns with the developer's goal of maximum density/profits.
Adding to the well-publicized opposition of area residents, Midtown Redevelopment Corporation, which works closely with the City to promote and develop this area of downtown, recently passed a resolution in opposition to the project. You can review the developer's preliminary plat, the Midtown Redevelopment Corporation letter to the Planning Commission and the neighborhood association's protest letter on the City's website, which is linked in this post.
At the time of this update, the Northline Development website states that pre-sale information on Dwellings @ SoSA will be available August 2015. No further information is given, and we have no additional information on that topic.

Pete
10-04-2015, 05:00 PM
The City staff has recommended the application be approved.

LisbonLofter
10-04-2015, 07:06 PM
Seems like the "Friends of SoSa" feel that their future friends should only be those wealthy enough to build a single family home in a downtown district. Awfully progressive of them....

onthestrip
10-04-2015, 10:41 PM
Seems like the "Friends of SoSa" feel that their future friends should only be those wealthy enough to build a single family home in a downtown district. Awfully progressive of them....

Ya, I don't understand why they think density shouldn't be a thing in downtown areas.

dwellsokc
10-05-2015, 06:15 AM
Why, all of a sudden, is Mickey Clagg against "density" in the corner of the district that is furthest from his interests? I wonder if Steve Lackmeyer knows anything.

LakeEffect
10-05-2015, 08:59 AM
Why, all of a sudden, is Mickey Clagg against "density" in the corner of the district that is furthest from his interests? I wonder if Steve Lackmeyer knows anything.

Yeah. That development is peculiar.

Urbanized
10-05-2015, 09:28 AM
Here is the full protest letter:

http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/cache/2/1tjmirvuofsfsl55sbvvzn55/292270810052015091714267.PDF

LakeEffect
10-05-2015, 09:50 AM
The opposition to this saddens me. I don't know how, or why, people have come to expect that single family should be prioritized in an area that is part of the urban core. The protest letter from property owners notes "to ensure compatible development with
existing traditional mixed residential uses" in the first paragraph or so. These are the same people that tear down existing housing stock to build contemporary homes that are NOT compatible with existing traditional mixed residential uses.

I really hope Planning Commission does not bend on this and goes with staff's recommendation.

bchris02
10-05-2015, 11:34 AM
The opposition to this saddens me. I don't know how, or why, people have come to expect that single family should be prioritized in an area that is part of the urban core. The protest letter from property owners notes "to ensure compatible development with
existing traditional mixed residential uses" in the first paragraph or so. These are the same people that tear down existing housing stock to build contemporary homes that are NOT compatible with existing traditional mixed residential uses.

I really hope Planning Commission does not bend on this and goes with staff's recommendation.

Its understandable that the existing homeowners want to protect their skyline view.

However, people thinking that single family should be prioritized is simply a product of three generations of suburban auto-centric development. People don't know or expect anything different. As the core re-urbanizes, there is going to be some growing pains and pushback and this is an example of that. Density is what will take the urban core forward. Hopefully the planning commission makes the right decision.

okatty
10-05-2015, 12:53 PM
Here is the full protest letter:

http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/cache/2/1tjmirvuofsfsl55sbvvzn55/292270810052015091714267.PDF

Might just be my Ipad but can't get that link to work. I'd like to see this if you happen to have another way to view or link..thanks.

wsucougz
10-05-2015, 04:51 PM
Try this:

http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/view.aspx?cabinet=published_meetings&fileid=2922709

May take a minute to load.

okatty
10-05-2015, 07:48 PM
^ Got it! Thanks!!

Spartan
10-05-2015, 09:00 PM
Trust me, I would absolutely prefer to live downtown…but not for the 2x to 4x difference we're talking about, it's just a hard move to justify when I couldn't live my preferred lifestyle without owning an automobile (regardless if I only had to drive 3,000 miles/year) and especially when public transit access to downtown is going to get much better in the next 5-10 years (heck, even this upcoming year when Route 005 starts running at night).

Plus the growth potential is not nearly as high downtown as it is to the North. I mean, buying downtown is still a great investment. I still expect a 25% increase in home-value over the next 5+ years. But I think there are so many places to buy all around the core that have 50% to 125% growth in front of them in the next 5+ years. Couple that with the lack of upfront capital needs, I think having to spend an extra 30 to 60 minutes in my car every week is worth it.

My real question is this: What price per square foot do downtown homes need to start hitting before developers take notice? Or maybe the better question is, what's the best equilibrium for developers to build 50/50 Lease/Sale housing in terms of pricing per square foot. If Lease prices are $1.75/sf, do for sale need to hit $350/sf to be enticing?

Why do things have to be cheap?

LisbonLofter
10-05-2015, 09:17 PM
Seems at that a guy making money creating apartments in the surrounding area wouldn't be against density.

no1cub17
10-05-2015, 09:57 PM
Why do things have to be cheap?

Exactly - they don't. We just need more supply of quality housing stock - and it'll be cheaper/more affordable, even in downtown. Except apparently our esteemed city leaders insist only on "low density" residential development downtown? What a joke!

no1cub17
10-05-2015, 10:03 PM
The reason that there is so little for sale vs. rent is because property values downtown are rapidly appreciating and developers want to buy and hold, not sell off.

Also, it's been crazy easy to get loans on apartments because they have done so well, while condos historically have been very hit and miss in OKC.

I had one developer of a large urban project tell me that you almost have to go with local lenders and most of them are skeptical of condo projects.

I could see how that last part could've been true a few years ago - but I don't think that's the case any longer. When I moved into the Lofts, half of the building (give or take) was unsold. In the 6 months afterwards, the building sold out, it seemed, in a jiffy. Look how quickly The Hill is selling - and it frankly is about as un-urban as you can get - compared to most of the other downtown for-sale housing. I'm really curious how the Browntones would do if they were introduced 2-3 years ago and not when they were. If cities like Milwaukee can have block after block of lakefront condos, why can't we have even one or two more projects with skyline views? I don't get it. There are so many young professionals/students living downtown now, most of whom love it. These people are prime candidates to buy when they start their real jobs. Let's not force them to go to Edmond!

soonerguru
10-06-2015, 11:52 AM
The pomposity and hypocrisy of this is astounding. I like many of the individuals involved in this, too. It's just very disappointing all around. It's no wonder it seems like collectively we are trying to push a one-ton boulder up hill to see any completed areas of urbanity in this city.

Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a quality use of land. The fact that it will be owner-occupied makes it even better. This development would improve, not hamper, property values.

SMDH

Teo9969
10-06-2015, 01:10 PM
Why do things have to be cheap?

Huh?

dwellsokc
10-09-2015, 05:48 AM
The pomposity and hypocrisy of this is astounding... Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a quality use of land. The fact that it will be owner-occupied makes it even better. This development would improve, not hamper, property values.
SMDH

Well said.

Yesterday's Planning Commission decision was continued for 2 weeks because there wasn't a quorum... 5 votes for, 2 against, 2 absent. Only one more vote is required for approval.

It'll pass.

LakeEffect
10-09-2015, 08:16 AM
Well said.

Yesterday's Planning Commission decision was continued for 2 weeks because there wasn't a quorum... 5 votes for, 2 against, 2 absent. Only one more vote is required for approval.

It'll pass.

Who voted against, and did they say why?

Pete
10-22-2015, 03:57 PM
This project received unanimous approval today from the Planning Commission, with one abstention.

Now, all systems are go. Should be starting soon.

LakeEffect
10-22-2015, 05:40 PM
This project received unanimous approval today from the Planning Commission, with one abstention.

Now, all systems are go. Should be starting soon.

Does that mean the two no votes flipped, or were they just not present?

Pete
10-22-2015, 09:11 PM
Does that mean the two no votes flipped, or were they just not present?

Of the two previous 'no' votes, one flipped and one abstained.

LisbonLofter
10-23-2015, 03:54 PM
Good news. Hopefully the Hawes Brothers try to get their development on 8th going again. With this precedent maybe the density argument will not hold them back this time.

Plutonic Panda
03-24-2016, 01:22 PM
Any news on this?

Pete
03-24-2016, 01:24 PM
In fact, they plan to break ground within 2 weeks.

Just talked to the developers yesterday. Have sold all but one of the first phase units.

Plutonic Panda
03-24-2016, 01:27 PM
So glad to hear that!

Pete
04-12-2016, 01:03 PM
Work has started:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dwellings041216.jpg

Plutonic Panda
04-12-2016, 01:15 PM
badf#ckingass! This will be a super cool project. Hopefully they will redo the streets soon.

OkieRedRaider
04-12-2016, 03:30 PM
In fact, they plan to break ground within 2 weeks.

Just talked to the developers yesterday. Have sold all but one of the first phase units.

What is considered phase one?

Pete
04-12-2016, 04:04 PM
What is considered phase one?

The first of 7 units will be the southern row along NW 6th.

Phase II will be another 7 units directly north.

Plutonic Panda
04-12-2016, 06:01 PM
Are they going to reconstruct the street and sidewalks?

Pete
04-12-2016, 06:06 PM
Sidewalks yes, street no.

Pete
05-30-2016, 11:15 AM
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dwellings053016.jpg

Canoe
06-01-2016, 08:34 AM
How are the pre-sales coming along?

Pete
06-01-2016, 08:40 AM
I believe they only have one unit left out of the 7-unit first phase.

Pete
10-31-2016, 08:31 AM
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dwellings103016.jpg

Pete
11-14-2016, 08:37 AM
Pumping concrete:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dwellings111116.jpg

Pete
01-15-2017, 12:35 PM
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dwellings011517.jpg

Pete
02-28-2017, 01:07 PM
Work has completely stopped here pending another protest by the same group of neighbors who has fought this project from the outset.

Although initially approved, some minor modifications prompted further administrative approvals which created another window for protest.

The latest appeal will be heard by the Board of Adjustment on March 2nd.

soonerguru
02-28-2017, 05:19 PM
UGH. NIMBYs. Boo.

LakeEffect
03-01-2017, 09:33 AM
Work has completely stopped here pending another protest by the same group of neighbors who has fought this project from the outset.

Although initially approved, some minor modifications prompted further administrative approvals which created another window for protest.

The latest appeal will be heard by the Board of Adjustment on March 2nd.

If (when?) the neighbors lose their appeal, I wish the developers could charge them for lost time/money.

Pete
03-01-2017, 09:37 AM
So much bad blood now in SoSA.

The attorney leading the opposition group lives directly across the street from the developers.

Richard at Remax
03-01-2017, 09:46 AM
Did the people already live down there really think no other developments like this would come in? You can't be that naive.

Architect2010
03-01-2017, 10:04 AM
Did the people already live down there really think no other developments like this would come in? You can't be that naive.

My thoughts exactly.

soonerguru
03-01-2017, 10:19 AM
Go back to Edmond, NIMBYs.

traxx
03-01-2017, 10:26 AM
Go back to Edmond, NIMBYs.

Hey....I live in Edmond.

But yeah, it's ridiculous for them to think nothing else would be built here. And it's a good project. NIMBY something that's a bad project, not this.

Richard at Remax
03-01-2017, 10:27 AM
Clearly the NIMBY folks aren't just in Edmond anymore.

Teo9969
03-01-2017, 11:16 PM
Did the people already live down there really think no other developments like this would come in? You can't be that naive.

I believe there are a lot of people in this city who think this place is a town and that they have more influence than they really do.

It seems like the mindset gets passed down through families and through certain communities/social circles to the point that when they're smacked with the realization that they don't in fact run the place, they balk.

I mean, it seems that even the BIG money people (of which probably none live in SoSA) are starting to realize that OKC is growing, and their influence is waining.

Pete
03-02-2017, 03:51 PM
Appeal was dismissed this afternoon so work should start again almost immediately.

shadfar
03-02-2017, 05:13 PM
Appeal was dismissed this afternoon so work should start again almost immediately.

Good!

Pete
03-02-2017, 05:40 PM
This matter may still end up in court, but for now is moving ahead.

dwellsokc
03-03-2017, 05:28 AM
I believe there are a lot of people in this city who think this place is a town and that they have more influence than they really do.

It seems like the mindset gets passed down through families and through certain communities/social circles to the point that when they're smacked with the realization that they don't in fact run the place, they balk.

I mean, it seems that even the BIG money people (of which probably none live in SoSA) are starting to realize that OKC is growing, and their influence is waining.

These are smart people. They knew there wasn't a chance to win it. There is a NIMBY quotient, but after the first rejected appeal their mission has been to inflict pain, delay, and cost on the developer. "Petulant" might be a better adjective.

Ross MacLochness
03-03-2017, 10:53 AM
If any of these folks read this blog, I'd like to hear their perspective on this. It's easy for us to demonize them for their NIMBYism and write them off as bitter and selfish, but perhaps they could offer their point of view to help us understand. What do these folks want/don't want in their neighborhood? What did they expect would happen when they invested in the area? What kind of development would they like to see in this area?

shadfar
03-15-2017, 12:22 PM
everything get squared away with this? i drove by this morning and looked like new equipment/material were there?

Cam
03-20-2017, 11:47 PM
If any of these folks read this blog, I'd like to hear their perspective on this. It's easy for us to demonize them for their NIMBYism and write them off as bitter and selfish, but perhaps they could offer their point of view to help us understand. What do these folks want/don't want in their neighborhood? What did they expect would happen when they invested in the area? What kind of development would they like to see in this area?

I use to live on 7th in SoSA. It basically boils down to adult hipster-ism for lack of a better term and a uptopian idealistic dream that some of them share. The people who moved down there in years past take a lot of pride in the fact that they moved back downtown long before the huge migration back, that is happening now. They were able to build cool modern houses for a fraction of what it would cost in many other cities. They had/have a great view of downtown. They essentially took a risk and now everybody wants to live down around them and they would like to have more control over that then is realistic. A lot of the people down there don't really respect Vincent. He is building sub-par modern houses and getting crazy amounts for them. His lastest builds have improved but a lot of the early builds were way overpriced for what they were. The catalyst for the really bad blood was people losing their views, which was a key reason why those streets were choosen in the first place to build back in the day. Also, I know a few of the originals liked that you could have a cool modern house at a reasonable price and wanted to keep it like that (which is unrealistic most likely). I know that a handful of them don't love that Mason built a 1+million house and that some of the new developments are driving the prices up so high that it's only affordable for pretty wealthy people. They also didn't want developers coming in and building. They wanted more individuals like themselves building one-off houses that were unique and architectural.

From my perspective of living down there and being a neighbor to all of this for 5 years, a decent amount of them wanted more true architectual builds, they wanted to keep their views, and they wanted more people like themselves to buy lots and build.

If your thinking, that doesn't sound realistic at all. You're right but that is the general thoughts down there. It's idealistic. I could talk a lot more about this whole situation but I hope that answers your questions.

Pete
03-26-2017, 09:33 AM
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dwellings032317.jpg

Pete
04-19-2017, 08:04 AM
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dwellings041817.jpg

Pete
06-29-2017, 02:18 PM
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dwellings062917.jpg