Anyone want to speculate on how many of the 170 will plead guilty to or be convicted of a crime?

Not really an accurate barometer. Ask any public defender who has had a client locked up because they can't afford bail the number of times they have had clients plead to some little bull**** charge they were not guilty of because it meant that they got to go home that day instead of waiting in jail 1-2 years for trial.

Just like this, to which I was responding:

If the shoe fits.

Why did you strategically edit out the word "all" in the text you quoted? Doing so fundamentally changed the meaning of his original words to suit the argument you were making. Were you hoping nobody would catch the dishonest representation of what Jerry posted?

Crikey. Here:


Who has suggested that the only guilty parties are cops? Or even that they were largely responsible for the mayhem? The ideas that some lawbreakers got violent and unruly (even deadly) AND that nervous law enforcement and an on-defensive DA and justice system overreacted a bit are not mutually exclusive.

Just like this, to which I was responding:


That's my thoughts. No sympathy for the gangs and thugs, but anyone who thinks all 170 arrested were involved, are criminals, and deserve the bail they set are nuts.

If the shoe fits.

Feel free to look for faults with whatever didn't work in my multiquote abilities this time too.

Yes, "all" probably would have been an important word in what he said for me to have quoted, it would have reinforced my counterpoint even more had I quoted the whole thing instead of hastily coping and pasting part of it.

He staked out an extreme position to call nuts. So did I.

It's an extreme position to think that even ONE of the 170 might not be guilty? Sounds like a safe bet to me. Especially in light of some of what I've read, and some of the weird/paranoid statements made by the sheriff.

It's an extreme position to think that even ONE of the 170 might not be guilty? Sounds like a safe bet to me. Especially in light of some of what I've read, and some of the weird/paranoid statements made by the sheriff.

^ does not equal:


About as nuts as those who think the only guilty parties are the cops.

OMG those are YOUR OWN words! Nobody has said that, other than you (wrongly) SUGGESTING that someone has! What a bizarre attempt to twist language and logic...

If you are talking about what Jerrywall said is nuts, yes, I said that's an extreme belief he staked out and said it's nuts. Do you want me to repeat that a few more times for some reason?

Here's the post. http://www.okctalk.com/current-events-open-topic/40615-biker-shootout-waco-5.html#post891345


He said it was nuts. I said it was as nuts as something else that's nuts. AGREEING BOTH ARE NUTS.

Are you serious? All of his posts have been roughly similar to this one:


Well, did they just arrest everyone in attendance or eating at the restaurant, or only those involved in the fights? Its not unreasonable to assume there are some innocent folks caught up in this sweep.

Hardly an extreme position.

Are you serious? All of his posts have been roughly similar to this one:



Hardly an extreme position.

I never quoted that or said it was. Try referring to what I quoted.

He essentially said he disagreed with anyone who believes all 170 are unquestionably guilty and deserving of $1 million bail. I agree with that, as would any reasonable person who has read up on this incident, and as did a judge who reduced bail for several already. LEOs cast a very wide net, and some law abiding citizens who had nothing to do with the shoutout were caught in it, or so it appears.

No need for you to attempt to rephrase and expand what either he or I said. Both our words are there and speak for themselves.

Funny then that it didn't keep you from restating what he said. It cuts both ways.

Funny then that it didn't keep you from restating what he said. It cuts both ways.

Where? Every single one of your posts is an attempt to change what either he or I said. Our words are here and speak for themselves.

Says the guy who leaves out critical, pivotal words in the middle of quotations. You're ridiculous.

Says the guy who leaves out critical, pivotal words in the middle of quotations. You're ridiculous.

His words are here and speak for themselves.

Thank goodness, for his sake. I'd hate to see him further slandered with no way for people to verify the nature of the slander.

Thank goodness, for his sake. I'd hate to see him further slandered with no way for people to verify the nature of the slander.

Nice grasp of the law.

Last word

I like hot sake. Hakutsura being my favorite.

He essentially said he disagreed with anyone who believes all 170 are unquestionably guilty and deserving of $1 million bail. I agree with that, as would any reasonable person who has read up on this incident, and as did a judge who reduced bail for several already. LEOs cast a very wide net, and some law abiding citizens who had nothing to do with the shoutout were caught in it, or so it appears.

FWIW, I tend to agree that of the 170, after the evidence (including cooperating witness statements) gets sifted through, there will likely be several that are not prosecuted, whether due to actual innocence, lack of evidence, or in exchange for cooperation.

That being said, the reduction of bail doesn't necessarily mean a judge questions the person's guilt. While strength of the evidence can be considered by the judge, the function of bail is to ensure a person's reappearance in court. He/she might believe the evidence of guilt is overwhelming, but if the person's role was minor and the defense attorney was able to convince the ADA and/or judge that the person was not a flight risk, bail would very likely be reduced.

Nice grasp of the law.

Nice grasp of the English language. While slander can be a legal term, it can also simply mean the spreading of false information to impugn one's integrity. Witness: your altered reposting of Jerry Wall's comments to support your pronouncements about his poor character.

Yeah positano, I understand how that works. The discussion has been whether all 170 deserved to be in jail with bail set at $1 million. Jerry Wall said that's unlikely. Based on a number of stories I've read and based on knowledge of legitimate events of the type at which the violence happened, I agree. Somewhere along the line a judge has now agreed with this assessment.

The arrest criteria in this case seemed to be not whether you were directly involved, and not even whether you were a patched member of the clubs who got violent with one another, but instead whether you were simply involved in motorcycling and were on the premises. Those charges won't stick, or certainly shouldn't.

Nice grasp of the English language. While slander can be a legal term, it can also simply mean the spreading of false information to impugn one's integrity. Witness: your altered reposting of Jerry Wall's comments to support your pronouncements about his poor character.

Cite the post or posts where i made a pronouncement about his poor character. You can't because it didn't happen. I've agreed with what he's said in his and my last exchange.

You are completely off in outer space at this point.

Yeah positano, I understand how that works. The discussion has been whether all 170 deserved to be in jail with bail set at $1 million. Jerry Wall said that's unlikely. Based on a number of stories I've read and based on knowledge of legitimate events of the type at which the violence happened, I agree. Somewhere along the line a judge has now agreed with this assessment.

The arrest criteria in this case seemed to be not whether you were directly involved, and not even whether you were a patched member of the clubs who got violent with one another, but instead whether you were simply involved in motorcycling and were on the premises. Those charges won't stick, or certainly shouldn't.

Very true. 170 defendants with $1 million pre-charge bails is more than most prosecutors or defense lawyers will experience cumulatively in their entire careers, much less in a single case. It is uninformed speculation on my part, but I expect the district attorney's office went into an aggressive precautionary mode and did everything they could to detain as many as possible until they could get on top of this (the ethics / legality of which could be subject to reasonable differences). I doubt they had any expectation at all that all of those bonds would stick - it was a stop-gap measure. I think you will see the overwhelming majority of those bail amounts dropping (by agreement with the DA) over the course of the next weeks, that's in addition to those that the judge reduces even over the objections of the government.

Holy hell... I don't get on the site for a few days. I'm sort of glad....back to riding.

In other Wacky Waco news...a press release by attorneys Looney and Conrad (You can't make this stuff up.)


BOND REDUCTIONS OFFERED ONLY IN EXCHANGE FOR WAIVING POTENTIAL LAWSUITS IN WACO SHOOTOUT

oh wait


Paul Looney "Good news. The D.A. just spoke to me. He agreed to reasonable bonds with no conditions. They get out in the morning."
"They" apparently meaning his client.

https://www.facebook.com/LooneyConrad/posts/668274669939433

Be sure and read the follow up comments by Looney WRT one of the prosecutors/defense attorneys alleged to be working both sides of the fence.

At this point it's getting so hard to track what's true and what's not. I'm not sure if we'll ever get to 100% of the truth.

We might get to the point of knowing someone shot someone else point blank that started it all. Or not. That's probably about it unless they have a bunch of intel that was gathered beforehand by undercover cops or the feds. Ballistics might tell something too.

Why have both "woe is me" stories started out by identifying them as fathers? Are men with children incapable of commiting crimes?

Reported (pretty much buried) on the main facebook page for above attorneys:


It has been determined the District Attorney’s office was not involved in yesterday’s attempt to get defendants to waive their rights of litigation in exchange for bonds. “That entire debacle was orchestrated by McLennan County private attorney Brittany Lannen,” Looney said. “Her behavior in this matter is bizarre, unprofessional, unethical and unappreciated by all of the attorneys representing defendants, by the McLennan County District Attorneys office, and by the McLennan County court staff. Her behavior will be reported to the State Bar of Texas for investigation this week.”

https://www.facebook.com/LooneyConrad?fref=nf

No mention of it on the new story I read that led to the press release above.

Bikers’ attorneys battle over fake litigation waiver rumors

Bikers? attorneys battle over fake litigation waiver rumors - WacoTrib.com: Twin-peaks-biker-shooting (http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks-biker-shooting/bikers-attorneys-battle-over-fake-litigation-waiver-rumors/article_e7712d41-80e8-5001-9bde-9e1e1a7f996d.html)

Heck of a way to drum up business.

Waco police held a press conference today:


Among the highlights, Stroman said Waco officers only fired 12 rounds in the exchange of gunfire. Stroman said 44 shell casings were recovered at the scene, though that didn't include some found still in revolvers.

Stroman did not reveal how many people, if any, were killed or injured by officers and he didn't say anything about how the altercation started.

Stroman said allegations and rumors that Waco police were indiscriminately firing into the crowd were not true. Stroman added that video of the shooting would help tell the story of what happened that afternoon and that it would be released in the future. The video is currently in the possession of the FBI for analysis.

Firearms found at the scene have been transferred to the ATF for analysis. Ballistics and autopsy information is being evaluated by an outside lab and final findings are not yet available.

Following the shooting, 177 people were arrested and held at the McLennan County Jail on $1 million bond. Stroman said it was his decision to arrest those people because there was probable cause they committed a crime. More than 100 of the bikers arrested have been able to obtain bond reduction hearings and have been released, according to the Waco Tribune.

Stroman said 239 people were originally detained at the scene and 62 were released that day without any charges being filed.

Stroman said more than 130 motorcycles and 91 vehicles were impounded after the shooting and that 52 motorcycles and 47 vehicles have been released to owners. Twelve of the motorcycles and three other vehicles were released to the lien holders due to repossession.

In all, more than 1,000 pieces of evidence were recovered from the crime scene, Stroman said.

Waco police said the investigation is very complex and that they are receiving assistance from the Texas Department of Public Safety, including their Criminal Investigation Division, the Texas Rangers, the Texas Alcohol and Beverage Commission, the McLennan County District Attorney's Office, the FBI and ATF.

Stroman said they plan to issue weekly updates to the media from this point forward through the investigation.

Waco Officers Fired 12 Rounds in Twin Peaks Shootout: Police | NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth (http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Waco-Police-Chief-to-Provide-Update-on-Twin-Peaks-Shooting-Investigation-307146261.html)

Surveillance footage released from biker shootout at Texas Twin Peaks restaurant | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2015/10/29/surveillance-footage-released-from-biker-shootout-at-texas-twin-peaks-restaurant/)

SAN ANTONIO — National leaders of the Bandidos biker gang were arrested Wednesday on charges accusing them of racketeering and waging a deadly “war” on the rival Cossacks gang, federal authorities said.

Three Bandidos leaders were accused of sanctioning a three-year fight that included violent clashes with rival gangs and distribution of methamphetamine, according to an indictment announced by the U.S. Attorney’s Office in San Antonio.

The accusations focus on a rivalry that came under renewed attention in May, when a meeting of biker groups at a Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco ended in gunfire that left nine people dead and at least 20 wounded. Authorities say that confrontation began when members of the Cossacks crashed a meeting of a confederation of biker clubs that included the Bandidos.

A dispute in the Twin Peaks parking lot ended in gunfire between the bikers and police standing nearby. However, the indictment makes no mention of the May 17 Twin Peaks shootout.

The indictment gives a day-by-day account of actions taken by the Bandidos while skipping the events that unfolded May 17 in Waco.

“That matter is being handled by the local DA,” Daryl Fields, public affairs officer with the United States Attorney’s Office in San Antonio, told the Tribune-Herald on Wednesday.

The next dated entry after May 17 was for May 23, where it states Portillo raised Bandidos’ dues to prepare to pay for bonds and legal expenses for members that would go to jail for “club business,” including criminal acts committed against member of the Cossacks. Members’ fees went from $50 to $100 per month, and support-club members’ fees were required to go from $25 a month to $50 a month.

Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton declined comment, saying the police department remains under a judge’s gag order.

The gag order applies only to the case of Matthew Clendennen — a Hewitt biker and a member of the Scimitars Motorcycle Club — not each and every case, but Swanton said the police department’s legal office has a different interpretation.

Swanton said he stands by comments he made to the Tribune-Herald shortly after the shootout.

The federal indictment accuses John Portillo, the Bandidos’ national vice president, of using dues and donations to pay legal expenses of its members days after the Waco shooting.

Portillo, national president Jeffrey Pike and national sergeant-at-arms Justin Cole Forster are charged with racketeering, drug distribution and other crimes.

An attorney who works with the Bandidos could not be reached for comment by the Associated Press.

The Bandidos Outlaw Motorcycle Organization has about 175 or more chapters in 15 countries on four continents, with about 107 chapters in the United States, including about 42 chapters in Texas, according to the federal indictment. The Bandidos’ membership is estimated at between 1,500 and 2,000 members, according to the federal indictment.

‘Debilitating blow’

“Operation Texas Rocker has inflicted a debilitating blow to the leadership hierarchy and violent perpetrators of the Bandidos Outlaw Motorcycle Gang,” said Joseph M. Arabit, special agent in charge of the Drug Enforcement Administration’s Houston field division, in a statement. “This 23-month operation highlights a deliberate and strategic effort to cut off and shut down the supply of methamphetamine trafficked by the Bandidos as well as other related criminal activity.”

The indictment outlines several other clashes between the Bandidos and rival clubs, including a December 2014 shooting at a bar in Fort Worth, where a biker from a different club was killed. The indictment accuses Bandidos bikers of harassing and attacking bikers across Texas, as part of the “war” that Portillo had declared.

“These indictments and arrests are the result of the ongoing partnership and collaboration between the FBI, DEA and DPS to neutralize one of the most dangerous criminal organizations in Texas,” FBI Special Agent in Charge Christopher Combs said in a statement.

“This effort not only exemplifies our commitment to prevent gang violence and criminal activity from poisoning our communities, but it also sends a clear message that we will relentlessly pursue and prosecute the leaders and members of these violent criminal enterprises.”

The federal indictment states that allegiance to the Bandidos organization and their fellow brothers is valued above all else.

“Witnesses to their criminal acts are typically the victims of acts of intimidation or harassment and are too afraid to approach law enforcement to testify in court proceedings,” according to the federal indictment. “Bandidos OMO members do not fear authority and have a complete disdain for the rules of society. The Bandidos OMO is very careful about admitting individuals into the enterprise.”

Indictments: Bandidos biker gang leaders sanctioned killing, waged ?war? on rival Cossacks - WacoTrib.com: Biker Shootout (http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks-biker-shooting/indictments-bandidos-biker-gang-leaders-sanctioned-killing-waged-war-on/article_44e91947-95e8-5ffe-904d-6d44c36abf4f.html)

Sad to be upstaged. Dutch & German bikers have joined the Kurds fighting ISIS.

Interesting read on the Waco shootout...

http://www.gq.com/story/untold-story-texas-biker-gang-shoot-out

Pretty fascinating. Thanks for posting.

Incredible story.

Interesting read but while trying to figure out why it missed some of the eyebrow raising developments, like the ballistics report and the narrative of the gang war outlined in the federal indictments of OMG leadership linked above, I realized it's an 8 month old article.

On ballistics:


Four of the nine people killed in a melee between rival biker gangs outside a Twin Peaks restaurant were struck by the same caliber of rifle fired by Waco police, according to evidence obtained by The Associated Press that provides the most insight yet into whether authorities were responsible for any of the deaths and injuries.

The latest trove of potential grand jury evidence reviewed by the AP depicts a chaotic, bloody scene in which police swarmed into the shootout between rival biker gangs on May 17 outside the Twin Peaks restaurant that left about 20 wounded and arrested nearly 200 people.

Hours of audio and footage and hundreds of documents including ballistics reports show that four of the dead and at least one of the wounded were struck with bullets from .223-caliber rifles — the only type of weapon fired by police that day.

Two of the four dead had wounds from only that kind of rifle; the other two were shot by other kinds of guns as well. The ballistics reports show that the rest of the people killed were shot by a variety of other guns.

It was not clear whether any bikers had similar guns to the police that day. Among the hundreds of weapons authorities recovered from the scene were 12 long guns, which could include rifles.

The Southwestern Institute of Forensic Sciences, which conducted the ballistics analysis, declined to comment on its findings.

Waco Police Chief Brent Stroman had said in June that officers shot a total of 12 rounds using the semi-automatic setting on their .223-caliber rifles. The AP has previously reported that evidence showed some of those shots struck bikers, but didn’t indicate whether they were fatal.

Police and the district attorney’s office declined to comment on the latest evidence, but have previously defended the officers’ use of force, claiming that bikers had also opened fire on police.

http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks-biker-shooting/bikers-killed-at-twin-peaks-shot-by-type-of-gun/article_6e2989cf-6b79-5e52-a91b-121be87bc5d2.html

ABC News - 4/3/2019 - Waco Biker Shooting: Prosecutors Drop All Charges in Deadly Shootout (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/waco-biker-shooting-prosecutors-drop-all-charges-deadly-shootout-n990341?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma&fbclid=IwAR2Aq8NVxabGM2P5BhN2nWL4juvLDwXkjJEPl6t03 JxxtIOSihFURO17Wjc).