I've never looked, and I'm a little afraid to ask.

I am having a hard time figuring out why people on OKCTalk have any interest in maintaining any kind of relationship with known criminal enterprises. This thread has been an eye-opener.

Hang on...who exactly is "maintaining (a) relationship with known criminal enterprises"?

Hang on...who exactly is "maintaining (a) relationship with known criminal enterprises"?

I'm wondering the same thing.

I might need to go back and read this whole thread again, but if I had a hobby that brought me into regular contact with drug traffickers, murderes, and various other criminal activities I would have to seriously consider adopting another hobby.

Omg.

Urbanized - when you see these 1%ers are you just crusing around town and see them because you know what to look for, or are you at some kind of motorcycle get together where both of you are in attendance?

I don't think anyone here has stated they come into regular contact with 1% folks. In fact, a big point I and others were trying to make early on is that most bikers/riders aren't part of or the same as these 1%er groups. That being said, I see them occasionally, when I'm at a bar for example (even a nicer one in Edmond) or just driving down the road. I don't believe riding myself significantly increased my exposure... just my awareness.

I don't think anyone here has stated they come into regular contact with 1% folks. That being said, I see them occasionally, when I'm at a bar (even a nicer one in Edmond) or just driving down the road.

Thanks. That clears it up for me. Reading through this as an outsider to the entire motorcycle scene I got the impression it was much more regular contact than it is in reality.

Let me add two things and then I will bow out. First, there seems to be this belief that all because someone was in the Marines (or military in general), that they are automatically some lovable WWII grandpa type. There are a lot of POS in the military. Second, just because someone volunteers at Toys for Tots doesn't make them a good person. Al Capone was generous as well.

Urbanized - when you see these 1%ers are you just crusing around town and see them because you know what to look for, or are you at some kind of motorcycle get together where both of you are in attendance?

Most of the events I go to don't in any way attract one percenters. First of all, They almost without exception ride American bikes, and specifically cruisers, which I'm not that interested in. They are uninterested in the type of motorcycle I ride too. I do see them on the road, and know just enough about who's who to recognize them and generally give them a wide berth. I'd rather not offend someone, or even be on their radar. The same is true when I'm driving a car.

About the only time I have been around them at all is at large motorcycle swap meets and shows, where they are still a tiny minority of attendees, probably not much different than the percentage of scofflaws vs regular folks who attend custom car shows or the state fair. I've recognized gang members at Thunder and college football games; should I stop going to those too?

Thanks Urbanized. Your comment along with jerrywall's cleared it up. You can keep going to Thunder games. :)

Thanks Urbanized. Your comment along with jerrywall's cleared it up. You can keep going to Thunder games. :)

Whew! ..... Thought I was going to have to stop shooting league pool in dark, smoke filled, bars based on the rational you gave above. ;)

There is also the fact that outside of colors they look like everyone else. I guarantee that everyone that goes out anywhere has been very close to some 1%ers. They don't always wear their colors and they shop, eat and drink like everyone else.

But the hard core give of a vibe, or at least they do to me. I am one of those paranoids they scope a place out when I walk in and am pretty insistent about having my back against a wall and away from entry doors and windows.

And, FYI.... those who know me know that I rode a motorcycle for many years. Got my first one at 14 because I could get a motorcycle license and a job. Gave up riding when I got married because my wife had zero interest in riding one. Yes, I often wore leather for the reasons previously mentioned. Plus, I looked pretty good in leather with my 80's mullet! Think an Albino Fonzi!!!

Thanks to the Albino Fonzi reference and watching Izombie last night I had an interesting character show up in my dreams. Zombie Fonzi.

I've never looked, and I'm a little afraid to ask.

Q: What's worn under the kilt?
A: Nothing! Everything's in fine working order!

Looks can be deceiving, in many directions.

I might need to go back and read this whole thread again, but if I had a hobby that brought me into regular contact with drug traffickers, murderes, and various other criminal activities I would have to seriously consider adopting another hobby.

Those are called defense lawyers.

There is also the fact that outside of colors they look like everyone else. I guarantee that everyone that goes out anywhere has been very close to some 1%ers. They don't always wear their colors and they shop, eat and drink like everyone else.

I think therein lies much of the problem. Individually these people are probably just fine and even likable. You put them in a large group with their identifying colors and everything changes.... the testosterone goes up and with it the threat of violence.

I see this all the time. I was literally meeting with a high ranking member of the Rollin90's who is in custody and looking at life in prison. Very friendly and likable guy when he is separated from his fellow gang members he's trying to impress. That's an extreme example. But I've also seen it with firefighters who are members of Wind & Fire. Nice guys individually, but I know a group who injured a gay man at the lake a few years back when they started acting stupid as a group.

As an ER nurse, leathers are a good thing...all bikers should wear them, or you and I will have a bad time after you lay down your bike.

It's starting to come out that the vast majority of the arrestees have no criminal history whatsoever. I think unless it can be proven that an individual was participating in anything more than fisticuffs you will see many of the charges dismissed. Just because someone happened to be there doesn't necessarily mean they were participating in criminal behavior.

It's starting to come out that the vast majority of the arrestees have no criminal
history whatsoever. I think unless it can be proven that an individual was
participating in anything more than fisticuffs you will see many of the charges
dismissed. Just because someone happened to be there doesn't necessarily mean
they were participating in criminal behavior.
I support 1% bikers unless they behave dangerously. I don't support unwarranted
deadly force. The 1%'ers I've known didn't/don't bother typical citizens.

Warranted = someone using deadly force that wasn't unwarranted.

It's starting to come out that the vast majority of the arrestees have no criminal history whatsoever. I think unless it can be proven that an individual was participating in anything more than fisticuffs you will see many of the charges dismissed. Just because someone happened to be there doesn't necessarily mean they were participating in criminal behavior.

I think it's going to be a difficult case to prove on an individual basis, however, when you rob a bank and someone dies, you don't have to be the trigger man to be guilty of murder. When you engage in a gang fight as a patched member of a group and someone dies, are you guilty of murder? How many brought and used illegal weapons too? My guess is it will come down to the security videos if they have any good ones. Finger prints on weapons and ballistics too. I wonder if they have enough on any of the groups for RICO charges yet?

According to an article I read online today, security footage so far has only shown a single biker shooting a gun, though many dozens were seen in the video. And having merely been in the place - or even having been in (lawful) possession of a weapon - is probably not good enough for conviction. There would have to be some evidence of individual participation, and of criminal intent. Remember, Texas has very forgiving gun laws, and apparently few of the arrested are convicted felons.

It will be interesting to see what ballistics comes up with. Based on the defensive tone law enforcement has been taking in the media I'm beginning to wonder how many of the killed and injured bikers were shot by LEOs. I don't doubt that initial shots were fired between bikers, but I'm wondering if the police - who were admittedly on edge and greatly outnumbered - started blasting at anybody wearing leather.

Reported weapon breakdown so far is this:

118 Handguns
1 Ak-47
157 Knives
43 others

Those weapons include clubs, knifes, brass knuckles, firearms, and chains with padlocks attached to them intended and used as weapons.

https://www.facebook.com/WacoPoliceDepartment/posts/817772148271343

Texas has a CC law. Maybe all of them were registered. Fighting is against the law unless you are defending yourself. So yes, I'm agreeing people there for lawful purpose with lawful weapons shouldn't be charged with anything.

However, again, if they were there as part of a group for negotiation of turf for illegal activity the meet was illegal to start with, compounded by whatever illegal weapons were brought and for whatever reasons, compounded by fighting and mayhem, which is illegal. Of course, none of that might have happened and it was all police coming down too hard. Waco part two? I'm going to bet the conspiracy folks will go with that no matter what comes out.

Didn't you guys just paint a picture where regular biker guys didn't mix with the bad 1% crowd?

As an ER nurse, leathers are a good thing...all bikers should wear them, or you and I will have a bad time after you lay down your bike.

I see a lot of fools that wear shorts, tank top and flip flops going 70 mph. I never wear shorts and always wear good boots. Some days it's just too hot for leathers.

The lawsuits have begun.

Don Carlos suing Twin Peaks? owners over biker gang shootout - WacoTrib.com: Biker Gang Shooting (http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks-biker-shooting/don-carlos-suing-twin-peaks-owners-over-biker-gang-shootout/article_2f7ffe81-ccf2-5cf6-b13f-a614f8232d0a.html)

Reported weapon breakdown so far is this:

118 Handguns
1 Ak-47
157 Knives
43 others

Those weapons include clubs, knifes, brass knuckles, firearms, and chains with padlocks attached to them intended and used as weapons.

https://www.facebook.com/WacoPoliceDepartment/posts/817772148271343

Texas has a CC law. Maybe all of them were registered. Fighting is against the law unless you are defending yourself. So yes, I'm agreeing people there for lawful purpose with lawful weapons shouldn't be charged with anything.

However, again, if they were there as part of a group for negotiation of turf for illegal activity the meet was illegal to start with, compounded by whatever illegal weapons were brought and for whatever reasons, compounded by fighting and mayhem, which is illegal. Of course, none of that might have happened and it was all police coming down too hard. Waco part two? I'm going to bet the conspiracy folks will go with that no matter what comes out.

Didn't you guys just paint a picture where regular biker guys didn't mix with the bad 1% crowd?

Well, I was saying THIS motorcyclist (me) doesn't intentionally mix with one percenters. I do think that those law-abiding bikers who are drawn to biker bars, big rallies, bike nights, etc., probably understand that they are likely going to be rubbing elbows with a few one percenters from time to time. In some cases they probably relish doing so - like Tony Soprano's doctor neighbor and his buddies who liked playing golf with a mobster - which is something I just don't get.

Regarding the weapons, the raw numbers seem on the surface to be startling, but my question is how many were fired? Or drawn? How many were even on a person? Knives probably were I guess (that's a pretty common item to carry and more often than not they are carried for utility purposes), but exactly how many stabbings were there? More importantly, how many of those guns were found in saddlebags/cases and were never brandished or used? Yet they are being commonly reported in the media as having been "hidden" throughout the scene. What exactly does that mean? By the way, if you searched all of the vehicles at a truck stop in Texas or a country diner with a bunch of pickups in the parking lot you would probably also find a startling number of guns.

The question I have is if all of these people are potentially complicit in murder, why did all of the photos show a bunch of bored-looking guys sitting on curbs and tailgates, texting on phones, not in handcuffs or even the zip-tie cuffs cops use when they run out of handcuffs? Few if any that I saw had marks on them, bruises, blood, torn clothes, etc.

Regarding the "negotiation for turf", I SERIOUSLY doubt that criminal organizations "negotiating turf" would be doing this on a patio of a busy restaurant, within earshot of a couple dozen cops. Like I guessed before, it appears that the meeting was actually NOT a "gang meeting" as it has been repeatedly portrayed but instead a pretty common confederation of clubs meeting (http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/05/21/criminal-meeting-of-bikers-in-waco-was-actually-organized-political-gathering/), with some Banditos in attendance, as apparently is common, but also with Christian clubs, veterans clubs, etc.

The meetings had also apparently been held for 20 years without a single incident before last week. It seems the problems started when the uninvited clubs (with an ongoing beef with Banditos) showed up, bringing an outside problem into what otherwise would have been a tame meeting. Of course, there is something to be said for not putting yourself into the wrong place at the wrong time, which is why I don't go to stuff like this.

I just think that it sounds like the violence was limited to a minority of the attendees, but ALL of them ended up going to jail. Which is going to be crazy-hard to prosecute.

For those who didn't click on my inline link in that last post, here is the story, though I would encourage you to click on the actual story (http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/05/21/criminal-meeting-of-bikers-in-waco-was-actually-organized-political-gathering/) so that you can follow other links:


‘CRIMINAL MEETING’ OF BIKERS IN WACO WAS ACTUALLY ORGANIZED POLITICAL GATHERING

Despite the characterization by police that the afternoon gathering at a Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco, Texas that led to Sunday’s bloody shooting incident was a gathering of criminal biker gangs with violent intent, the meeting appears to have been a legitimate, organized gathering of motorcycle riders meeting to discuss political issues.

The group that met was the Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents (CoC&I) and a look at that group’s website and history (http://txcocinews.org/) gives a very different impression of the group’s purpose and goals than what has been said repeatedly by Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton.

Swanton has been a central media figure, conducting several press conferences since shootings that left nine dead and dozens injured happened on Sunday. Swanton’s statements have been echoed by the media, creating an image of a get together of thugs converging on Twin Peaks in an event obviously fraught with danger that authorities tried desperately to stop until they were foiled by the uncooperative restaurant owner.

An AP report on Tuesday (http://www.elpasotimes.com/juarez/ci_28137543/police-9-dead-texas-shooting-all-members-biker) gives what has been the now-standard media narrative:


Five gangs had gathered at the restaurant as part of a meeting to settle differences over turf and recruitment. Prior meetings had been held at the restaurant, and managers there had dismissed police concerns over the gatherings, he said.

“They were not here to drink and eat barbecue,” Swanton said. “They came here with violence in mind.”

The “gathering of criminal bikers” story was even used to justify the $1 million bail that the 170 arrested bikers were each handed. From the same AP report:


McLennan County Justice of the Peace W.H. Peterson set bond at $1 million for each suspect. He defended the high amount, citing the violence that quickly unfolded in a shopping market busy with a lunchtime crowd.

“We have nine people dead, because these people wanted to come down and what? Drink? Party?” Peterson said. “I thought it was appropriate.”

Despite those claims by Texas officials of drinking, partying and violence in mind, the Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents website and other information give every impression that the group’s meeting on that Sunday was legitimate.

This does not mean that groups or individuals who participated in CoC&I meeting don’t have criminal connections. Some see the CoC&I as a way for clubs like the Bandidos to gain legitimacy, an assessment shared by the Texas Department of Public Safety’s Gang Threat Assessment from 2014 (https://www.dps.texas.gov/director_staff/media_and_communications/2014/txGangThreatAssessment.pdf):


Formed in the 1960s, the Bandidos Outlaw Motorcycle Gang (Bandidos OMG) conducts its illegal activities as covertly as possible and avoids high-profile activities such as drive-by shootings that many street gangs tend to commit. However, members are not covert about making their presence known by wearing the gang colors, insignia, and riding in large groups. They seek to turn public sentiment in their favor by organizing frequent charity runs. Bandidos are likely to focus on recruiting new members with no criminal history.

However, it’s not clear that everyone who attended the CoC&I meeting had criminal connections. As the Gang Threat Assessment report pointed out, even the Bandidos have recruited members with no criminal history in an attempt to clean up there reputation. As a comment on the biker site Aging Rebel (http://www.agingrebel.com/12873) suggests:


If thirty guys were fighting who were the other 140 that were arrested? The Christian Ministries, the Veterans Clubs, and everyone else who attended a COC meeting aimed at keeping bikers safe, biker legislation, and scheduling biker events? So now your local motorcycle minister is locked up on a 1 million dollar bond.

A look at the Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents website and events calendar does show a group that’s focused on legislative issues and elections.

The CoC&I site has an entire page dedicated to National, State and Local Happenings (http://txcocinews.org/state-and-local.html) with links to various political calls to action and events.

That page features a photo of a U.S. Marine standing at attention with a group of bikers and a photo an eagle over an American flag with the motto “Don’t tread on me. I refuse to allow my civil servant to run my life.”

A look at the group’s events calendar (http://txcocinews.org/calendar.html) shows that the Twin Peaks meeting was listed on the Calendar as a “Region 1 Texas COC&I Meeting”; one of a number of meeting that happen in every part of Texas on a regular basis.

Other events on the Calendar show an actual legislative purpose. For example, on April 22nd at 7am the Calendar lists a public hearing on legislation:


The Motorcycle Safety Fund Bill (SB754) will be brought to the floor for public hearing in the Transportation Committee.

Paul and Jude will be testifying in support of the bill and we need as many people as possible to attend the hearing to support our community spokesmen, Senator Watson and show we are unified in seeing SB754 passed.

Later in April was a two day “Texas COC&I Christian Unity Event”, described as:


This event is open to everyone. We want to include Christians from all traditional MC’s and not just the Christian MC’s and MM’s.

You are welcome even if you are not a Christian, but the event will be Christian by nature.

Looking beyond the group’s website, eyewitness reports are beginning to paint a very different picture than that the official version from the Waco police.

Halfway through this WacoTrib.com (http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks-biker-shooting/only-of-slain-in-twin-peaks-shootout-from-waco-witnesses/article_04745208-8210-54cd-811c-2989f0447951.html?mode=jqm) story comes an account from someone who was at event that claims the biker’s political event was interrupted by uninvited bikers from the Cossacks gang.:


Steve Cochran, a national bikers’ rights advocate from Waco who witnessed the melee, blamed the incident entirely on the Cossacks. Cochran, who is a founder of the Waco chapter of the Sons of the South, is an official with the U.S. Defenders Task Force, a legislative group affiliated with the Texas Confederacy of Clubs and Independents.

He arrived at Twin Peaks on Sunday to set up a sound system for the COC&I meeting, only to find that the violence already had started.

Bandidos members were to be part of the meeting, which was to focus on legislative issues common to all bikers, Cochran said. He said police gave no indication to him or other COC&I members that their lives might be in danger.

“These meetings have gone on for 20 years, and we’ve gone all these years without a single incident until Sunday,” he said.

Other reports say that about 60 Cossacks arrived at the meeting and a list of those killed indicates that only one of the victims was from Waco. Tuesday, Breitbart Texas reported exclusively (http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/05/19/exclusive-cossacks-biker-gang-recently-transferred-members-into-bandidos-territory/) on indications on social media of aggressive moves by the Cossacks, including “transfers” of bikers into Texas.

The emerging picture of what really happened on Sunday in Waco raises some doubts about the initial police explanation of the incident as well as their suggested remedy. For example, Waco spokesman Swanton has repeated blamed the restaurant for not refusing to host the event.

However, the very political nature of the Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents and its website raise troubling First Amendment questions about the police trying to pressure a business to shut down a lawful political meeting that had never led to problems previously, regardless of the people at that meeting.

Texas Law Enforcement has had a difficult job dealing with biker gangs. One frustration is that some groups like the Bandidos combine legitimate elements (with charity rides) with criminal (like meth dealing.)

The question I have is if all of these people are potentially complicit in murder, why did all of the photos show a bunch of bored-looking guys sitting on curbs and in tailgates, texting on phones, not in handcuffs or even the zip-tie cuffs cops use when they run out of handcuffs? Few if any that I saw had marks on them, bruises, blood, torn clothes, etc.

One report I read about that (comparing the way those guys were treated to how they would have been treated if they were black, which is besides the point)

is the group in the photos sitting around texting were guys who showed up after the scene was under control by the cops. Not directly involved. Maybe being detained for questioning, maybe not. Who knows?

Reported in the above link, one of the weapons was in a vehicle. Also reported, many were not including a gun someone tried to flush. I don't see that as the cops BSing anyone. There was a heck of an arsenal on the premises.

Also noteworthy, it's a misdemeanor in Texas to carry an illegal concealed weapon unless you do at a place that serves alcohol, then it's a felony. I'm betting some of those people with clear records aren't going to be clear when this is over with. (If the place has sales of alcohol in excess of 51% of total, they have to post it and no weapons are legal, permitted CC or not. I don't think that applies at this Twin Peaks.)

According to an article I read online today, security footage so far has only shown a single biker shooting a gun, though many dozens were seen in the video. And having merely been in the place - or even having been in (lawful) possession of a weapon - is probably not good enough for conviction. There would have to be some evidence of individual participation, and of criminal intent. Remember, Texas has very forgiving gun laws, and apparently few of the arrested are convicted felons.


Not necessarily. Hard to tell at this point what the witnesses and cooperaters are saying, but you can assume law enforcement / the DA's Office / US Attorney's Office is trying to determine whether this can be prosecuted as a RICO case. Their arms get a lot longer in that case. A patched member may not have to be shooting or brandishing to get scooped up in a RICO case. We'll just have to wait and see what the interviews and other evidence reveal (which won't be limited to the crime scene).

I see a lot of fools that wear shorts, tank top and flip flops going 70 mph. I never wear shorts and always wear good boots. Some days it's just too hot for leathers.

Wrangler jeans are fairly thick and can help cut down on road rash.

Ah, that's what I meant. I thought that was brick there too. Yeah, I remember that and I remember when it went away. It made Bricktown feel less biker friendly.

That's because it was biker friendly. lol Then it went to "family friendly". Now it is in transition again as residential intensifies in the area.

I really loved bike nights at the Ballpark. If I recall correctly, some jack ass pulled a wheelie down Mickey Mantle Ave and crashed. Then it was over for everbody.

1%'ers are rare. There were plenty of people with aggressive personalities in our group. Still yet, I can't imagine a shoot out.

I see a lot of fools that wear shorts, tank top and flip flops going 70 mph. I never wear shorts and always wear good boots. Some days it's just too hot for leathers.

There was a guy on a sunny day last week, shorts only, no shirt......dumba$%

The Latest on Waco Shooting: Biker Group Gets Proclamation - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-waco-shooting-texas-lawmakers-biker-bill-31240451)

Richie died, then Diesel, then Dog: An eyewitness to the Waco biker brawl

By Tim Madigan and Kevin Sullivan May 23

WACO, Tex. — Richie was the first to die, then Diesel, then Dog.

Whatever else they were in life, the men with the biker nicknames were Cossacks, loud and proud and riders in a Texas motorcycle gang. And that’s what got them killed, shot to death in a brawl with a rival gang in the parking lot of a Texas “breastaurant” that advertised hot waitresses and cold beer.

“I saw the first three of our guys fall, and we started running,” said their brother in arms, another Cossack, who said he was there May 17 when the shooting started at the Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco. Nine bikers died, 18 were wounded and more than 170 landed in jail.

The Cossack, president of a North Texas chapter of the motorcycle gang, asked not to be identified because he is now in hiding and said he fears for his life. He is a rare eyewitness speaking publicly about the Waco massacre, one of the worst eruptions of biker-gang violence in U.S. history.

<snip>

Since Sunday’s killings, Waco police have offered few conclusions in their complex investigation. But they have said that the violence was touched off when an “uninvited” group, presumed to be the Cossacks, showed up at a meeting of a larger confederation of motorcycle clubs dominated by the Bandidos.

In several interviews in recent days, the Cossack rider offered a different story. He said that the Cossacks were invited to the Twin Peaks patio that day — by a Bandido leader, who offered to make peace in a long-running feud between the two gangs. That invitation was a setup for an ambush, though, according to the Cossack. That’s why the dead included six Cossacks, one Scimitar (an ally of the Cossacks) and only two Bandidos.

The biker’s story could not be independently verified; most of those involved in the shootout are still in jail. But significant parts of his account square with police statements, as well as security camera videos obtained by the Associated Press.

From the outside, biker culture seems incomprehensible, a violent mash of hyper-macho tribalism, a world in which a patch on a leather vest is worth dying for. To law enforcement, the gangs are little more than heavily armed crime syndicates, masquerading as noble rebels while trafficking in drugs and weapons.

To the bikers themselves, their world makes perfect sense. It has a code of honor. It has hierarchy, discipline, thrills and camaraderie — much like the military, whose veterans birthed the biker movement after World War II and swelled its ranks after Vietnam. Now, a new generation of veterans, home from Iraq and Afghanistan, is feeding the movement.

Their world has unwritten rules that everybody knows and has predictable consequences for stepping out of line.

So when a biker from the Bandidos, the oldest gang in Texas and one of the largest in the world, ran into a young Cossack in the Twin Peaks parking lot last Sunday, everyone knew what was coming. First words, then fists, then guns. Within seconds, Richie, Diesel and Dog were dead.

“I took off,” the Cossack rider said. “I got out of there. I didn’t have a weapon. I couldn’t fight anybody.”
Feud over label

It started with a phone call.

About a week before Sunday’s gunfight, according to the Cossack, a leader of the Bandidos, a man named Marshall from the Longview area in East Texas, contacted Owen Reeves, the “nomad,” or leader, of the Cossacks’ Central Texas region.

The two gangs had been at odds for years. The Bandidos consider themselves the Big Dogs of the Texas biker world, and other gangs — or clubs, as they prefer to be called — generally don’t cross them.

The Bandidos wear their claim to the Lone Star State on their backs. Their vests say “Bandidos” across the shoulders, just above their logo, a caricature based on Frito-Lay’s Frito Bandito. At the bottom, the word “Texas” is stitched boldly in an inverted crescent.

That crescent, the “Texas rocker,” has long belonged to the Bandidos, and they consider it a provocation if someone else wears it without permission — which is exactly what the Cossacks did.

“We don’t claim any territory, but the reason that the Bandidos have such an issue with us is that we wear the Texas rocker on our back, but we don’t pay them $100 a month per chapter to do it,” the Cossack said. “When you’ve got 100 chapters. That’s a lot of money.”

The Bandidos are second in size only to the Hell’s Angels and have as many as 2,500 members in 13 countries, according to the Justice Department, which considers the group a violent criminal enterprise engaged in running drugs and guns. The Cossacks, a smaller group, do not show up on law enforcement lists of criminal gangs, but the group has been growing more aggressive in recent years. Officials have warned of the potential for violence between the two gangs.

The feud has been raging since at least November 2013, when two Bandidos, including the “sergeant-at-arms,” or second in command, of one chapter were charged with stabbing two Cossacks outside a bar in Abilene. In December, three Bandidos were arrested in connection with a shooting outside a Fort Worth bar that left one man dead and two wounded.

On May 1, the Texas Department of Public Safety issued a bulletin to law enforcement agencies across the state warning about the Bandidos having “discussed the possibility of going to war” with the Cossacks, largely over the issue of the Texas “rocker.”

The bulletin noted that on March 22, several Cossacks attacked a Bandido with chains, batons and metal pipes. On the same day, Bandidos attacked a Cossack with a hammer and demanded that he remove the Texas rocker from his vest.

After all that, the phone call from Marshall was a welcome olive branch, the Cossack said.

Marshall invited the Cossacks to Twin Peaks on Sunday when the Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents was scheduled to hold a major meeting. Those meetings are generally about bikers’ rights, safety and other administrative issues. The Bandidos dominate that organization; the Cossacks are not members.

Marshall said that the Bandidos “wanted to get this cleared up,” according to the Cossack, who was relating what he said Reeves told him. “He said, ‘Bring your brothers, hang out, and let’s get this fixed and we can all leave in peace and be happy.’ He was talking to our chapter in Waco. That’s where the heat has been at. The leader of our Central Texas chapter said, ‘Okay, I’m going to make this happen.’ ”

Reeves, who was jailed after the melee, could not be reached for comment. No members of the Bandidos could be reached for comment. Most participants in the violence, and eye-witnesses to it, are in jail, in the hospital or dead. Even waitresses on duty that day have not responded to messages.

The Cossack continued: “Anybody who is a Cossack knows this call was made because the Nomad called everyone and said, ‘We have an opportunity to make this right. I think we should take a risk.’ And everybody agreed.”
Parley turns deadly

On a beautiful sunny Sunday, about 70 Cossacks on Harley-Davidsons thundered down Interstate 35 through Waco, which sits on the Brazos River about halfway between Dallas and Austin. They rolled into a commercial shopping mall, past Jo-Ann Fabrics and Cavender’s Boot City, and into the parking lot of the Twin Peaks restaurant.

The Cossack said he and the others congregated on the outdoor patio and started ordering food and drinks. They chatted with other bikers from smaller “mom and pop” bike clubs, who were already well into their burgers and beers and margaritas ahead of the 1 p.m. confederation meeting.

Guns and other weapons are a common part of biker culture, and the Cossack acknowledged that some members of his gang were armed.

“But not all of us,” he said. “We had no reason to believe that this was going to go that way.”

The parley with the Bandidos had been set for 11 a.m., the Cossack said, but the Bandidos didn’t arrive until about 12:15, when about 100 of them pulled into Twin Peaks in a long, loud line of Harleys.

Trouble started almost immediately, he said: One of the Bandidos, wearing a patch that identified him as a chapter president, ran his bike into a Cossack standing in the parking lot. The Cossack who was hit was a “prospect,” a man in his mid-20s who was “striving to become” a full member of the club.

“They came up really fast, and the prospect turned and faced the bikes,” the Cossack chapter president said. “He fell backward into other [parked] bikes. The guy who hit him stopped and got off of his bike and said, ‘What are you doing? Get . . . out of my way. We’re trying to park.’ ”

Cossacks quickly jumped to the prospect’s defense, he said: “Guys were saying, ‘You’re disrespecting us,’ or, ‘We’re not backing down.’ ”

In a blink, it started, he said: “Two punches: One from them, one from us.”

A Bandido with a patch identifying him as sergeant-at-arms of the same chapter threw a punch at Richard Matthew Jordan II, 31, known as “Richie,” who was from Pasadena, Tex. Jordan punched the guy back.

“At that point in time, the sergeant in arms shot Richie point-blank,” the Cossack said.

Police said Jordan died of a gunshot wound to the head.

“Then all the Bandidos standing in the parking lot started pulling guns and shooting at us,” he said. “There were maybe 60 or 70 of us in the parking lot. . . . We took off running. We scattered. Three of our guys went down instantly. They caught a couple more that tripped and fell, and Bandidos were shooting at them.”

He said that the second man to die was Daniel Raymond Boyett, 44, known as Diesel, a “road captain” in the Cossacks from Waco. Police said that Boyett died from gunshot wounds to the head.

The third man down was “Dog,” whose real name is Charles Wayne Russell, 46, of Winona. Russell’s cause of death was listed as a gunshot wound to the chest.

The Cossack said that he believes the Bandidos had no intention of making peace that day.

“It was a setup from start to finish,” he said.
What the police say

The Cossack’s story has been impossible to verify, but it is largely consistent with what police have said about how the brawl began.

More at the link:

Richie died, then Diesel, then Dog: An eyewitness to the Waco biker brawl - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/richie-died-then-diesel-then-dog-an-eyewitness-to-the-waco-biker-brawl/2015/05/23/00db6436-1a8a-469b-9d6f-d2283234d281_story.html)

"...That crescent, the “Texas rocker,” has long belonged to the Bandidos, and they consider it a provocation if someone else wears it without permission — which is exactly what the Cossacks did...."


And these are grown men? How pathetic.

Grown as is can't physically grow taller.. Unreal the thinking, or lack thereof, of these "men".

Its about money, as has been said. Gangs control their territory for guns drugs and other rackets.

Wrangler jeans are fairly thick and can help cut down on road rash.

So are Carhart jeans.

Warning, don't look if you're squeamish: Why Wearing Jeans on a Motorcycle is a Really Bad Idea (https://rideapart.com/articles/why-wearing-jeans-on-a-motorcycle-is-a-really-bad-idea)

There are tons of other places on the web where you can see people who thought good thick jeans were "good enough," right up until they were getting skin grafts. In even a 45 MPH slide you're going to be abrading bare skin within seconds. That's why God made Kevlar. And leather. Wait. God made leather. Some genius at DuPont made Kevlar.

There are about 1000 great pairs of Kevlar pants out there if you don't want leathers. Of course, neither helps with impact unless you also have integrated armor or some other sort of armor.

Dainese D6 Riding Jeans - RevZilla (http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/dainese-d6-jeans)

AGV Sport Alloy Riding Jeans - RevZilla (http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/agv-sport-alloy-riding-jeans)

http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/agv-sport-excursion-riding-cargo-pants

So are Carhart jeans.

I have a pair of lined ones in case, heaven forbid, I should ever have to walk out in sub freezing temp. Some of the armored jackets I have seen are pretty impressive with the hard points, armored lumbar and airbags for your neck.

Gangs will fight almost as hard as OU over corporate logos. Turf = money.

Here's a link showing how indiscriminate the arrests and bond setting appear to have been: SA man caught up in Waco melee has lost his job at USAA - San Antonio Express-News (http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/SA-man-caught-up-in-Waco-melee-has-lost-his-job-6290515.php)

Well if his lawyer friend says he is a good guy, he must be.

Well, did they just arrest everyone in attendance or eating at the restaurant, or only those involved in the fights? Its not unreasonable to assume there are some innocent folks caught up in this sweep.

Well, did they just arrest everyone in attendance or eating at the restaurant, or only those involved in the fights? Its not unreasonable to assume there are some innocent folks caught up in this sweep.

Considering he is being held on $1,000,000 bail my guess is he didn't get arrested while dipping his fries in ketchup.

Considering he is being held on $1,000,000 bail my guess is he didn't get arrested while dipping his fries in ketchup.

If it had been mayonnaise I would agree to the bail amount.

They did automatic $1 million dollar bail on everyone arrested.

...and none of them were arrested while dipping their fries.

Were you there? If 170 were shooting I would expect a lot more fatalities.

My guess is there will be some wrongful arrest lawsuits before it's over with. Hopefully the thugs will go to jail and the innocent will go free. Probably some thugs are going to go free before it's over too.


Three bikers jailed with more than 170 others for more than a week and a half after a deadly shootout at Twin Peaks were going home to Austin on Thursday, after winning significant bond reductions in an agreement with the McLennan County District Attorney’s Office.

State District Judges Matt Johnson and Ralph Strother approved bond reductions from $1 million to $25,000 each for Jonathan Lopez, Theron Rhoten and Ryan Craft, members of the Vice Grips Motorcycle Club who ride antique Harley-Davidson motorcycles.

The judges said they met with District Attorney Abel Reyna on Thursday and agreed to consider significantly lower bonds if attorneys for the bikers and Reyna’s office could reach accords.

Reyna did not return phone messages left at his office and on his cellphone Wednesday and Thursday.

“The DA’s office is going to make a good-faith effort to try to work out some agreements on bond reductions,” Strother said. “I would welcome any agreements the DA and the attorneys are able to reach.”

Three more bikers released after bond reduction agreements with DA - WacoTrib.com: Courts And Trials (http://www.wacotrib.com/news/courts_and_trials/three-more-bikers-released-after-bond-reduction-agreements-with-da/article_efbb7d1f-4c4f-5385-a1ee-3911bea15df5.html)

Next up, plea agreements.

That's my thoughts. No sympathy for the gangs and thugs, but anyone who thinks all 170 arrested were involved, are criminals, and deserve the bail they set are nuts.

They took em all....
https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/539817_434254706615463_249209498_n.jpg?oh=53190305 22bfa148d48441899a1019aa&oe=55FE2C3A

167 of the 170 were arrested inside the shooting perimeter.

That's my thoughts. No sympathy for the gangs and thugs, but anyone who thinks all 170 arrested were involved, are criminals, and deserve the bail they set are nuts.

About as nuts as those who think the only guilty parties are the cops.

Anyone want to speculate on how many of the 170 will plead guilty to or be convicted of a crime?

WACO -- A 30-year old father and former firefighter who is also a member of a motorcycle club has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit alleging he was illegally swept up in the police dragnet following this month's Twin Peaks biker shootout in Waco.

Matthew Clendennen of Hewitt is a member of the Scimitars Motorcycle Club and was at Twin Peaks on May 17. He was one of approximately 170 people arrested after the melee, which left nine dead, and was charged with engaging in organized crime.

In his lawsuit, filed in federal court in Waco on Friday, Clendennen said he "did not encourage or solicit any criminal activity at Twin Peaks that day."

It states he was arrested "without probable cause and his motorcycle was illegally seized."

His lawsuit names the City of Waco and the McLennan County Sheriff's Office, as well as individual officers working the Twin Peaks case.

"It was the policy of the City of Waco, as decided and approved by their policymakers, to cause the arrest and detention of numerous individuals belonging to motorcycle clubs who were in or around the Twin Peaks restaurant at the time of the incident, regardless of whether or not there was individualized probable cause to arrest and detain a particular individual and to do so based on 'fill in the name' complaints without individualized facts," the lawsuit states.

The lawsuit makes no specified claim of damages, but says Clendennen's constitutional rights were violated.

Motorcyclist files lawsuit over Waco biker brawl arrest (http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/crime/2015/05/29/motorcyclist-files-lawsuit-over-waco-biker-brawl-arrest/28152789/)

About as nuts as those who think the only guilty parties are the cops.

Anyone want to speculate on how many of the 170 will plead guilty to or be convicted of a crime?

Who has suggested that the only guilty parties are cops? Or even that they were largely responsible for the mayhem? The ideas that some lawbreakers got violent and unruly (even deadly) AND that nervous law enforcement and an on-defensive DA and justice system overreacted a bit are not mutually exclusive.

Who has suggested that the only guilty parties are cops? Or even that they were largely responsible for the mayhem? The ideas that some lawbreakers got violent and unruly (even deadly) AND that nervous law enforcement and an on-defensive DA and justice system overreacted a bit are not mutually exclusive.

Just like this, to which I was responding:


believes 170 arrested were involved, are criminals, and deserve the bail they set are nuts.

If the shoe fits.

nm...already posted