The fact that I KNOW (Not think I know) more about this situation than you, anyone else here, or the story the media has told on it has led me to my conclusion and opinions on this.

Wow. Really bold statement. Takes some reckless courage to assume you know everyone on this board and make a statement like that.

Wow. Really bold statement. Takes some reckless courage to assume you know everyone on this board and make a statement like that.

Not really given the situation. Unless PhiAlpha has been lying from day one about this (which I don't believe, just covering the possibilities) we know he is a SAE alum who has been involved what is being done on the non-public side of this scandal, which means he probably does know more about it than any of us that aren't in the exact same position.

Wow. Really bold statement. Takes some reckless courage to assume you know everyone on this board and make a statement like that.

Nothing new. That seems to be his position on every subject he cares to post about.

Unless PhiAlpha has been lying from day one about this (which I don't believe, just covering the possibilities)

He'd have to have been lying from day one of being on this board since his username, PhiAlpha, is SAE's motto.

Not really given the situation. Unless PhiAlpha has been lying from day one about this (which I don't believe, just covering the possibilities) we know he is a SAE alum who has been involved what is being done on the non-public side of this scandal, which means he probably does know more about it than any of us that aren't in the exact same position.

If that were the case, he would be relying on information from persons associated with the fraternity, which in turn would suggest they were aware of every internal step the university was taking, which we all know would not be the case. The final conclusion would be that no one on this board was affiliated or have knowledge of the university process, which would be as much, and likely more, knowledge that was more comprehensive than what the fraternity was aware of. While he may have more intimate knowledge of what's going on from the fraternity's perspective, again, a bold conclusion that no person on this board knows more than him. Not trying to sidetrack the discussion, just making a qualifying point. Not suggesting dishonesty at all.

Nothing new. That seems to be his position on every subject he cares to post about.

No, just every subject you disagree with me on. This brings us to a grand total of 2.

If that were the case, he would be relying on information from persons associated with the fraternity, which in turn would suggest they were aware of every internal step the university was taking, which we all know would not be the case. The final conclusion would be that no one on this board was affiliated or have knowledge of the university process, which would be as much, and likely more, knowledge that was more comprehensive than what the fraternity was aware of. While he may have more intimate knowledge of what's going on from the fraternity's perspective, again, a bold conclusion that no person on this board knows more than him. Not trying to sidetrack the discussion, just making a qualifying point. Not suggesting dishonesty at all.

First off, I very highly doubt the university knows more about this situation or will ever know as much about it as the people I've discussed it with. They always could but after seeing how their judicial committee and their investigations work for 5 years, I certainly have my doubts about their abilities. I made that statement from the fraternity persepective and didn't think about the university side, so that is a good observation. While I do know people working in Boren's office and have gotten tidbits of information out of them, I do not know anyone handling the judicial precedings or the investigation from the university side. Having said that, we have been briefed on the process by the attorneys handling it and have been in meetings with the involved students' parents so I have pretty good feel for what has been discussed in the student interviews and where they are in the process. Given that both the university and fraternity have hired attorneys to handle this and that potential legal action hangs in the balance, both sides have been pretty open with where they are in their investigations. With the knowledge I do have on this, I would still assume I know more than the vast majority here from the university side of this as well. Though if anyone here can speak from the university side, feel free to speak up. I would love to hear more from that perspective. I definitely have heard from some of the faculty that thought Boren went way overboard in his initial reaction to this (I'm sure there are plenty that were perfectly happy with his actions, just not the people I spoke with)...but that's the teaching faculty and not the judicial staff.

No, just every subject you disagree with me on. This brings us to a grand total of 2.

I've appreciated reading our posts and you have brought a lot of knowledge and info to this thread. Thanks for your input PhiAlpha. It's a lightening rod topic and there are lots of varying thoughts and opinions. Your views and input are valued from my standpoint. FIne for people to disagree with each other's opinions but hopefully we can appreciate the value of information and even differing views amongst the group.

I've appreciated reading our posts and you have brought a lot of knowledge and info to this thread. Thanks for your input PhiAlpha. It's a lightening rod topic and there are lots of varying thoughts and opinions. Your views and input are valued from my standpoint. FIne for people to disagree with each other's opinions but hopefully we can appreciate the value of information and even differing views amongst the group.

Appreciate it.

If that were the case, he would be relying on information from persons associated with the fraternity, which in turn would suggest they were aware of every internal step the university was taking, which we all know would not be the case. The final conclusion would be that no one on this board was affiliated or have knowledge of the university process, which would be as much, and likely more, knowledge that was more comprehensive than what the fraternity was aware of. While he may have more intimate knowledge of what's going on from the fraternity's perspective, again, a bold conclusion that no person on this board knows more than him. Not trying to sidetrack the discussion, just making a qualifying point. Not suggesting dishonesty at all.

I disagree that's is a bold conclusion for exactly the reasons I listed. Sure, there may be someone posting here anonymously from the inside of OU's legal or student judicial departments about this issue, but the chances of that are slim enough that his claim feels reasonable to me. Now, they may well be lurking here without ever posting, but if they aren't participating in any discussions that isn't really the same thing as being part of the board community.

First off, I very highly doubt the university knows more about this situation or will ever know as much about it as the people I've discussed it with. They always could but after seeing how their judicial committee and their investigations work for 5 years, I certainly have my doubts about their abilities. I made that statement from the fraternity persepective and didn't think about the university side, so that is a good observation. While I do know people working in Boren's office and have gotten tidbits of information out of them, I do not know anyone handling the judicial precedings or the investigation from the university side. Having said that, we have been briefed on the process by the attorneys handling it and have been in meetings with the involved students' parents so I have pretty good feel for what has been discussed in the student interviews and where they are in the process. Given that both the university and fraternity have hired attorneys to handle this and that potential legal action hangs in the balance, both sides have been pretty open with where they are in their investigations. With the knowledge I do have on this, I would still assume I know more than the vast majority here from the university side of this as well. Though if anyone here can speak from the university side, feel free to speak up. I would love to hear more from that perspective. I definitely have heard from some of the faculty that thought Boren went way overboard in his initial reaction to this (I'm sure there are plenty that were perfectly happy with his actions, just not the people I spoke with)...but that's the teaching faculty and not the judicial staff.

I think that's a pretty fair statement (not that you need my approval). We're square.

I think that's a pretty fair statement (not that you need my approval). We're square.

Square here as well.

On a different note, looks like we are going to be getting some official information from the University fairly soon:

https://twitter.com/OklahomaWatch/status/581472133496184832

.@UofOklahoma (https://twitter.com/UofOklahoma) President David Boren will announce results of #SAE investigation at noon. @OKWnate (https://twitter.com/OKWnate) will tweet out updates.

I definitely have heard from some of the faculty that thought Boren went way overboard in his initial reaction to this (I'm sure there are plenty that were perfectly happy with his actions, just not the people I spoke with)...but that's the teaching faculty and not the judicial staff.

Yeah, I don't think what DBo did was fair, just or any of the other homily-like descriptions we would like to apply to the actions of someone we'd like to look up to. I DO think that what DBo did was the absolute best possible action one could take for the continued financial well-being of his institution. Was it fair, just, etc? Moot. It'll please the lawyers and donors. DBo is very astute.

On a different note, looks like we are going to be getting some official information from the University fairly soon:

https://twitter.com/OklahomaWatch/status/581472133496184832

Yes we were told things would wrap up this week for the student portion of this. The issues with the potential sale of the physical fraternity house and the fraternity itself will be decided later. The national fraternity is now ramping up it's investigation of the students involved. There is a meeting involving Boren, SAE representatives, and other campus leaders that either happened late yesterday or will happen today before the press conference.

There will be a lot of community service involved for people on the bus as well as others in the house. There will absolutely be no more expulsions as part of the first agreement reached with the university, but their may be some punishments that are harsher than community service for a few individuals (I'm going off two day old info so I'm not sure what punishments are on the table right now, just know that expulsion and likely suspension are not included).

Yeah, I don't think what DBo did was fair, just or any of the other homily-like descriptions we would like to apply to the actions of someone we'd like to look up to. I DO think that what DBo did was the absolute best possible action one could take for the continued financial well-being of his institution. Was it fair, just, etc? Moot. It'll please the lawyers and donors. DBo is very astute.

Eh, well it may have pleased some of the donors. Other major, major donors were and still are considering withdrawing their support for the athletic program over how he handled it, but fortunately, depending on how this is handled from here on out, that is no longer as likely.

I don't think it was the best possible action he could've taken for the well-being of OU in general and think that there are several ways he could've better handled it. Though I do agree that if he had come off too softly it would've done more damage than going way overboard (which I think he did). There was definitely a middle ground there that was overlooked, which even our national fraternity realized after a few days. The national fraternity even went as far as sending Boren a letter that condemned the student's actions, reaffirmed their suspension of the chapter, and confirmed that they were investigating as well, but also supported the fact that OU SAE has been one of it's strongest chapters throughout the fraternity's history and that it shouldn't be forever band from the campus because of one bus load of kids or 3-4 years of poor management/judgement or whatever you want to call it.

Yeah, I don't think what DBo did was fair, just or any of the other homily-like descriptions we would like to apply to the actions of someone we'd like to look up to. I DO think that what DBo did was the absolute best possible action one could take for the continued financial well-being of his institution. Was it fair, just, etc? Moot. It'll please the lawyers and donors. DBo is very astute.

This X1000

David Boren has worked too hard to have his 20 years of elevating OU to a well respected institution undone over 2 frat boys who aren't even from Oklahoma. Any "free speech" legal claim would have paled in comparison to the MILLIONS the school could stand to lose in lost donations, fewer students applying, lost fellowships, and yes, lost athletic commits. This was not faux outrage for the camera; DBo was seriously pissed.

Legal theories be damned when there are serious real world implications at play. Maybe its more an indication of the times we live in, but I can't remember a story about an American university that didn't involve someone at least getting shot blow up so fast. OU is not about to fall on its sword for anyone who inflicts this level of damage.

This X1000

David Boren has worked too hard to have his 20 years of elevating OU to a well respected institution undone over 2 frat boys who aren't even from Oklahoma. Any "free speech" legal claim would have paled in comparison to the MILLIONS the school could stand to lose in lost donations, fewer students applying, lost fellowships, and yes, lost athletic commits. This was not faux outrage for the camera; DBo was seriously pissed.

Legal theories be damned when there are serious real world implications at play. Maybe its more an indication of the times we live in, but I can't remember a story about an American university that didn't involve someone at least getting shot blow up so fast. OU is not about to fall on its sword for anyone who inflicts this level of damage.

No doubt on the bolded parts. And though I think any lawsuit over free speech issues against Boren and/or the university would no doubt make them look bad, it would in no way over shadow the negative publicity from the video.

No doubt on the bolded parts. And though I think any lawsuit over free speech issues against Boren and/or the university would no doubt make them look bad, it would in no way over shadow the negative publicity from the video.

So, per Boren OU interviewed 100 members and SAE at OU learned the chant at a national leadership cruise four years ago. So it’s not new to the OU chapter and these freshman learning it involved SAE leadership at both the national and local level.

SAE nationally has always been known as the old south racist frat and nothing has changed. SAE is rotten to the core and all the way to the top. They can certainly stop the playing the victim card now and can just go away permanently.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ou-says-sae-frat-members-learned-racist-song-national-event-n331416

Woah, that's a twist. The timeline does match up with the reports we had previously that SAE at OU around ten years ago didn't know or sing it.

Woah, that's a twist. The timeline does match up with the reports we had previously that SAE at OU around ten years ago didn't know or sing it.

News9's report is even harsher:


NORMAN, Oklahoma - University of Oklahoma President David Boren has announced the findings of an investigation into a fraternity after members were caught on video engaging in a racist chant.

President Boren held a news conference at noon on Friday. According to the University, the origin of the chant was that it was learned by local chapter members on a national leadership cruise sponsored by the national organization of SAE four years ago. Overtime, the chant was formalized in the local SAE chapter and was taught to pledges as part of the formal and informal pledgeship process.

According to the University, prior to the chapter's annual Chapter's Founder's Day event on March 7, there was alcohol available at the fraternity house, and there is evidence that a significant number of members were consuming alcohol prior to boarding the bus on which the chant was sung.

As part of the chapter's normal recruitment activities in connection to its Founder's Day event, the chapter had invited about a dozen high school students, who were present at the house and were exposed to the chant while on the bus, according to University officials.

Officials also said it's clear that during the four years since the chant was brought to the OU campus, its existence was known by recent members and that it became part of the institutionalized culture of the chapter.

As of result of the findings, the University has issued discipline to involved students ranging from permanent withdrawals, community service and mandated cultural sensitivity training.

OU President Boren Announces Findings Of SAE Racist Chant Invest - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/28632863/boren-announces-findings-of-sae-investigation)

Sounds like more than just two students are no longer as OU.

I think its safe to say SAE at OU won't be coming back if fingers are now being pointed at the national leadership. Boren isn't going to trust any kind of SAE national investigation or actions.

I'd say a lot of schools are going to be looking very hard at SAE now. Boren has lots of friends. SAE may not survive this nationally.

This isn't old racism that didn't get tossed out, this is newly adopted ugly racism at national level leadership of the frat. It's the 21st century people, who does this?

So much for 'isolated incident', 'just some 2nd semester freshman', and '10 second video'.

There will never be an "honest discussion" of racism in this country, because there is too much to gain from being dishonest. Nobody is 100% politically correct 100% of the time, and those who claim to be are valuing "liberal guilt" (I love that term, whoever mentioned it earlier) above honesty.

Accusations of racism are powerful political tools. In the 50s if you wanted to viciously attack someone, you called them a Communist. Today you call them a racist. It will get a denial 100% of the time. Nobody wants to be labeled that way. As a result, people don't feel free to openly discuss issues of race, because they don't want to admit that six months ago they saw a black guy speeding down the road doing 20 miles over the limit, and they looked at their wife and said "Must be a sale at KFC" or something like that.

Actual mistreatment of people because of their race is of course an awful thing. But isn't that different than someone who says words that might be offensive and hurtful if they were said in public, but are instead said in private?

Let's pretend for a moment that I am not a misogynist. For say for the sake of argument that I have no problems with women. I'm a nice guy, I treat people fairly in the workplace, I treat women with respect, all that sort of thing. But sometimes, once a month, on Friday nights, I go to the strip club with my buddies, I drink a few beers, and I make jokes with my drunk buddies about "women should get in the kitchen and bring me some pie". Am I a sexist? Should I be judged the same as a person who treats women negatively in their every day life?

Can we joke about things that are inappropriate, without being judged as committing some sort of a horrible social sin? George Carlin said that you can joke about anything. Is that correct?

Edit: It took me a while to type this, and I started this post before the news about OU's investigation was revealed.

My point with this post goes back to something I said a long time ago in this thread. 1) Sometimes it is fun to be a dick, to say things that you know you probably shouldn't say. Because sometimes it is fun to pretend to be a worse person than you really are. 2) It is also fun to be a self-righteous prick, to pretend to be a better person than you actually are. It's fun to look down on other people in judgment. That makes it difficult to honestly judge one incident that we only see without context, and makes it very difficult to have honest discussions about sensitive topics.

Now obviously, the results of OU's investigations (if they are accurate) provide some context that does not look good at all for SAE. But until this point we have not had any of that.

So much for 'isolated incident', 'just some 2nd semester freshman', and '10 second video'.

I've maintained this stance since the get go. SAE is a racist organization from top to bottom. Anybody who says this is just a 10 second video & just a few kids on 1 bus is blatantly blinded, and needs facts to slap them in the face before they can draw conclusions.

According to the University, the origin of the chant was that it was learned by local chapter members on a national leadership cruise sponsored by the national organization of SAE four years ago. Overtime, the chant was formalized in the local SAE chapter and was taught to pledges as part of the formal and informal pledgeship process.

Boom. Funny how some people are frequently so wrong but never in doubt.

Boom. Funny how some people are frequently so wrong but never in doubt.

You mean the part where he claimed repeatedly that the song didn't exist when he was in the fraternity 5 years ago, the part where he claimed the song didn't go back decades? The past where he said the last few pledge classes have really driven the chapter downhill?

IT is easy to point a finger at SAE and pretend like this is the only place where some level of racism is allowed to persist, but the problem is much bigger. As I've mentioned previously, we all have biases, stereotypes, etc. what matters is that (a) we are willing to be honest, humble, and self-critical, and (2) that we work to eliminate/reduce that bigotry in personal (from jokes to chants) and institutional ways. We all have work to do. What happened at SAE was more open and shocking than a lot of racism that still exists, but that doesn't mean it doesn't persist. That's why I've been more concerned about the conversations going forward about SAE than that particular incident.

You mean the part where he claimed repeatedly that the song didn't exist when he was in the fraternity 5 years ago, the part where he claimed the song didn't go back decades? The past where he said the last few pledge classes have really driven the chapter downhill?

Well, he was wrong about this being blown out of proportion, that it was just some Freshman that didn’t even live in the house, that the national organization had nothing to do with it, that the members mostly didn’t know the song and knew nothing about it being sung that day and were being treated unfairly and were unfairly branded as racists.

You mean the part where he claimed repeatedly that the song didn't exist when he was in the fraternity 5 years ago, the part where he claimed the song didn't go back decades? The past where he said the last few pledge classes have really driven the chapter downhill?

In fairness, what he said was it wasn't sung when he was at OU, and the timeline seems to indicate the chapter only learned and brought it to Norman about four years ago.

Well, he was wrong about this being blown out of proportion, that it was just some Freshman that didn’t even live in the house, that the national organization had nothing to do with it, that the members mostly didn’t know the song and knew nothing about it being sung that day and were being treated unfairly and were unfairly branded as racists.

And that the media along with everyone not nearly in the know, have it blown out of proportion. But the words are above and speak for themselves.

You mean the part where he claimed repeatedly that the song didn't exist when he was in the fraternity 5 years ago, the part where he claimed the song didn't go back decades? The past where he said the last few pledge classes have really driven the chapter downhill?

Yeah pretty sure everything you just said, actually holds up compared to what OU says.

"And that the media along with everyone not nearly in the know, have it blown out of proportion."

As they do.

In fairness, what he said was it wasn't sung when he was at OU, and the timeline seems to indicate the chapter only learned and brought it to Norman about four years ago.

That was actually my point.

Well, he was wrong about this being blown out of proportion, that it was just some Freshman that didn’t even live in the house, that the national organization had nothing to do with it, that the members mostly didn’t know the song and knew nothing about it being sung that day and were being treated unfairly and were unfairly branded as racists.

I actually always maintained that I knew a lot about this behind the scenes, knew how it got there, knew how it was transmitted, and thought that, while as I said before...the facts don't make it look good...it was blown out of proportion by the media. I didn't realize Boren was going to release that much information today but that pretty much blows the lid off the things I couldn't talk about yet. I was actually at the press conference and talked to people I know that work for Boren while it was going on. I think and they agreed that he overgeneralized some of his statement today which I can detail later, but overall I was pretty ok with what he said and was mostly happy with his press conference today. More details later

"And that the media along with everyone not nearly in the know, have it blown out of proportion."

As they do.

Yeah, the entire world has it wrong except for the 3-4 voices of reason on this board.

I'm so glad to have this amazing insight from a first hand member of the Saints of Sigma Alpha Epsilon, who has enlightened us to the virtues of such an upstanding organization. All praise SAE & their glorious ways. Soon they will cast a light on the unholy media & its blinded followers.

Yeah, the entire world has it wrong except for the 3-4 voices of reason on this board.

I'm so glad to have this amazing insight from a first hand member of the Saints of Sigma Alpha Epsilon, who has enlightened us to the virtues of such an upstanding organization. All praise SAE & their glorious ways. Soon they will cast a light on the unholy media & its blinded followers.

Quite an insightful post there.

Yeah, I don't think what DBo did was fair, just or any of the other homily-like descriptions we would like to apply to the actions of someone we'd like to look up to. I DO think that what DBo did was the absolute best possible action one could take for the continued financial well-being of his institution. Was it fair, just, etc? Moot. It'll please the lawyers and donors. DBo is very astute.

It's a lot of risk to have these kind of affiliations, et al, with so little control over what they do, except for ending the affiliation. I guess some would tell us it's worth it.

Quite an insightful post there.

I'm so happy to please ya, mastah!

I actually always maintained that I knew a lot about this behind the scenes, knew how it got there, knew how it was transmitted, and thought that, while as I said before...the facts don't make it look good...it was blown out of proportion by the media. I didn't realize Boren was going to release that much information today but that pretty much blows the lid off the things I couldn't talk about yet. I was actually at the press conference and talked to people I know that work for Boren while it was going on. I think and they agreed that he overgeneralized some of his statement today which I can detail later, but overall I was pretty ok with what he said and was mostly happy with his press conference today. More details later

You think it was "blown out of proportion" by the media but agree with what was said?

You have no sense of perspective here. The reporting was in no way out of proportion and I don't know how SAE nationally goes forward from here. This is now worldwide news that SAE at it's national leadership level embraced and spread this song to local chapters. SAE is a sick and racist organization that frankly deserves to die as soon as possible. This isn't going to just kill SAE either, this is rattling the entire Greek system nationwide.

SAE is a sick and racist organization that frankly deserves to die as soon as possible.

That's about as wrongheaded of a statement as I've seen here. Why don't we just start euthanizing cancer patients while we're at it. God forbid they try to fix the problems. But hey, babies and bathwater.

That's about as wrongheaded of a statement as I've seen here. Why don't we just start euthanizing cancer patients while we're at it. God forbid they try to fix the problems. But hey, babies and bathwater.

Wow, so now racists are comparable to cancer patients. The ignorance is strong with this one.

Wow, so now racists are comparable to cancer patients. The ignorance is strong with this one.

Yup, you're right, that's exactly what I said. Are you really that dense?

Racist behavior like this in an organization is like cancer (hence the try to fix the problem line). The only ignorance seems to be coming from your direction, and it's obviously intentional.

2) It is also fun to be a self-righteous prick, to pretend to be a better person than you actually are. It's fun to look down on other people in judgment.

I just think this needed posted again. Something about some of the last few posts made me think of it, for some unidentifiable reason.

Boom. Funny how some people are frequently so wrong but never in doubt.

So, you buy the story the University is putting out hook, line and sinker?

That's about as wrongheaded of a statement as I've seen here. Why don't we just start euthanizing cancer patients while we're at it. God forbid they try to fix the problems. But hey, babies and bathwater.

And actually several statements that Boren made today refute the quote you were responding to.

I just think this needed posted again. Something about some of the last few posts made me think of it, for some unidentifiable reason.

Hoya, I laugh out loud every time I read that (and the original post). That may be one of the funniest damn things I've ever read on this board (and I confess guilt to the principle). Cheers.

SSAE nationally has always been known as the old south racist frat and nothing has changed.

As someone with a hell of a lot more experience than you in the fraternal world, that is complete bull****.

Racist behavior like this in an organization is like cancer (hence the try to fix the problem line).

Once again, here is the disconnect showing up. We have in our midst a 4th generation member of SAE who self-professes to know far more than anyone else about what went on, is going, and will be going on. So what did we hear from this person leading up to the Boren press conference? Answer, that this was only a lapse in judgment perpetrated by some drunk 2nd semester freshman caught in a 10 second video and the national leadership didn't know anything about it. Unfortunately, that didn't match up with reality.

Does that sound like someone who is part of an organization that is trying to root out questionable members and right the ship (i.e. removing the cancer)? To be honest, it doesn't to me. In my opinion, and if this was my organization, and my objective was to purge this activity from my midst, I would have no problem with the expulsions and house closing because that is exactly what I would be doing within the organization. You don't try to rehabilitate cancer cells, you cut them out so they don't spread to health cells (just to stick with the analogy).

SAE is doing their own investigation so I guess we will see soon enough what direction they are going to go.

A member of the organization is under no obligation to tell you what steps they are taking internally when to do so might harm the internal efforts to deal with a situation. The public, in this case, has no right to know anything. What you know is what Boren has said publicly and you have a 10 second vidio clip.

You don't understand what the dynamic in a fraternity is like between alumni and actives because even I, the highest alumnus up the food chain in my fraternity's chapter advisory board couldn't tell you what the dynamic is at SAE.

I only know enough to know how absolutely clueless some of you other commenters are and can say no more than that.

Once again, here is the disconnect showing up. We have in our midst a 4th generation member of SAE who self-professes to know far more than anyone else about what went on, is going, and will be going on. So what did we hear from this person leading up to the Boren press conference? Answer, that this was only a lapse in judgment perpetrated by some drunk 2nd semester freshman caught in a 10 second video and the national leadership didn't know anything about it. Unfortunately, that didn't match up with reality.

Does that sound like someone who is part of an organization that is trying to root out questionable members and right the ship (i.e. removing the cancer)? To be honest, it doesn't to me. In my opinion, and if this was my organization, and my objective was to purge this activity from my midst, I would have no problem with the expulsions and house closing because that is exactly what I would be doing within the organization. You don't try to rehabilitate cancer cells, you cut them out so they don't spread to health cells (just to stick with the analogy).

SAE is doing their own investigation so I guess we will see soon enough what direction they are going to go.

You really like to be selective with my posts. I guess emotional topics seem to bring that out in people here. I said that singing it on the bus was a lapse of judgment and that everything leading up to it was a colossal mistake. I also said I couldn't discuss the details of what led up to it yet becuase of the pending legal action. I didn't realize that Boren was going to release that much information, if I had known...I would've posted about it sooner so that the crazy people looking down on me from their high horses here wouldnt accuse me of lying about it.

my comment about the second semester freshmen making a mistake, when put in the context of my post, was referring to the fact that I did not think they were actually racist and shouldn't be labelled as such for the rest of their of their lives because of a mistake...a sentiment that Boren agreed with in his press conference yesterday. I never said anything that conflicted with Boren's statement. I said that the facts, while they will make no one look good, don't make this look as bad as it has been portrayed. Again, as I said yesterday, Boren overgeneralized his summary of some of the events that make this look more "institutionalized" than it actually was, but had the correct story of what happened. Also I get the feeling from reading responses here that many of you didn't actually watch the entire press conference and just read the news stories about it because your posts directly confict with several points he made about the incident and the students involved.

I will post my breakdown of what happened later this weekend or Monday. Now that the cat is out of the bag, it should be fine to do so.

A lot of back and forth on just how widespread this is and the reaction, but at the end of the day...this is SAE's mess to clean up. They either do or they don't. Boren did what he thought needed to protect the university, and that will play out as it shall. If some donors are going to pull funding because of it - that is on them. PR wise I'm sure that could get spun into those donors/businesses support racist remarks and they are showing it by pulling funding. I'm NOT saying they do are are...just saying I would expect some people out there to spin it that way.

For me at this point the one point that seems to be ignored...who supplied these minors with alcohol and was it present in the SAE house? Are the greek houses considered on campus and must adhere to the dry campus requirements? If anything, the DA should be looking at those individuals that supplied it and go after them.

As someone with a hell of a lot more experience than you in the fraternal world, that is complete bull****.

Bite me. I was a GDI, but I had many friends in many different houses. My wife is active in her alumni group for her sorority and my daughter is currently in a sorority. SAE was known as the racist frat at KU when I was in college 25 years ago and my wife says the same thing about them at OSU back then. It's the old south frat. Always has been.

Bite me. I was a GDI

That is where you should have stopped before you went into a tirade about how very very little you know about this situation and group dynamic.

Bite me. I was a GDI,.

It's so angry

Let me ask a simple question that should clear things up.

Did anyone know this chant was passed onto local chapters during a cruise 4 years ago BEFORE the Boren press conference?

I was president of my fraternity at OU and heavily involved with the Interfraternity Council and even went to several SAE parties, as I had friends over there. I lived in the house for three years and they were two doors down from us. I was also on our almuni board for 8 years.

Until this all came out, I had zero association with SAE and racism and didn't even know they were founded in Alabama.

The idea the entire fraternity somehow has racism at its core is ridiculous.


If my old house had been the one filmed on those videos I would have been horrified. But I'd take tremendous offense if others then tried to color me and the people I was in the house with back then as racists or part of something fundamentally racist.

It's entirely possible to condemn that song and those that have kept it going and spread it around, without vilifying every SAE since the dawn of time.

That is where you should have stopped before you went into a tirade about how very very little you know about this situation and group dynamic.

No, I have no clue about group dynamics, except for being in corporate management for 20 years.

Let me ask a simple question that should clear things up.

Did anyone know this chant was passed onto local chapters during a cruise 4 years ago BEFORE the Boren press conference?

To expand that a bit in a different direction...How did it get to the cruise? Who brought it? Where did they get it?