Don't think about it too long, or you might realize how easily those tables can be turned. So, in your mind racism is justified if you can point to what you consider justification?

Ok, this what is you are doing bro. You keep trying to justify & make light of the racism black people face by you saying white people experience racism too, but now you are saying that no racism should be justified. So, why are you trying to justify the racism black people are experiencing by saying black people are racist too? You are contradicting yourself.

This is the fact: The personal racism that white people have had/do deal with DOESN'T EVEN COME CLOSE personal, societal & institutional racism & oppression that black people face EVERY SINGLE DAY & FOR DECADES.

Are some black people racist? Sure, but many of them have VERY GOOD REASON TO BE. White people have tormented black people for centuries, and its still going on today. Way more so than just name calling.

Step outside of your white picket fence & the internet and gain some real life experience with minorities. You have no idea what they have to go through on a day to day basis. If you think the worst thing they deal with now days is being called the N word than you really have no idea what is happening in this world.

^^^

To add to that, racism and all forms of bigotry dramatically and disproportionally affect minority groups (this includes sexism, homophobia, religious bigotry, etc). If someone says something "racist" to me as a white male it holds incredibly little power. Demeaning a person of color not only adds to cultural and historically-grounded stereotypes, but also accompanies systems and institutions that work against minority groups in their lived experiences. In short, this is much more of a theoretical argument for a white, middle class male and a practical reality for other groups.

Having said that, of course we all need to work towards building respectful relationships that affirm diversity and welcome each other into community. But it's also important to recognize when you're talking from a position of privilege. I know that I am privileged in so many ways (white, straight, English-speaking, male with no mental or physical disabilities) that I try to recognize these privileges in theoretical and practical discussions of such issues. When I think back to my youth I am amazed the benefit of the doubt that me and my white friends were afforded in interactions with authority including police and school officials. There's a heck of a lot of evidence that, for example, young black males don't get that same benefit of the doubt. So, keep in mind that racism without power is very different than racism with power.

Everything I tried to say, Jon Stewart said it 100 times better. This is worth your time: The Brotherhood of the Traveling Chants & To Catch a Prejudice - The Daily Show - Video Clip | Comedy Central (http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/riop51/the-brotherhood-of-the-traveling-chants---to-catch-a-prejudice)

Don't think about it too long, or you might realize how easily those tables can be turned. So, in your mind racism is justified if you can point to what you consider justification?

Your white privilege is showing. Racism by individual black people has no power over you. White racism, institutionalized like what you see at SAE/OU badly impacts black people.

8% of Oklahoma residents are black, but only 4% of students at OU are black and only 2% of professors. There are no black deans at OU. None. There is a problem at OU, this isn’t just an isolated SAE problem with a couple of students on one bus. What happened at SAE is a symptom of a larger, real problem. The enrollment rates and dropout rates by minorities at OU are evidence of the problem. This little incident and others like it that were never filmed are part of why black students don’t feel welcome at OU, why going to school there is hard for minorities. A Native American cousin of my wife did really well in high school but only lasted one semester this year at OU.

Lack of quality university education directly impacts earning potential. As does lack of access to jobs through being excluded from institutions like frats. What happened at SAE is institutional racism at work, this is why it’s so important that it be addressed. This wasn’t a single student yelling a hurtful word at someone during an argument, this was a university sponsored group gleefully celebrating their racism together and rudely voicing the intention to never let a black person be part of their group. When you see a cockroach, you know there are many more hidden from view, this incident is a cockroach. This is far from the only example of group enforced racism at OU or other schools, it’s just usually hidden behind many frat’s “secrets”.

The University of Oklahoma, a state institution, has an environment that is hostile to minorities. It plainly does, watch the statements by those black football players the state celebrates on Saturday mornings in the fall. Ask my wife’s cousin. This is a problem that is directly and meaningfully hurtful to black and other minority communities. No rap song lyric ever hurt you, but certainly go acting like the injured party. David Boren did a great job addressing this one incident, now he needs to attack the problem. There is a lot of work to be done, at OU, in Oklahoma, and in our Nation in general with regards to racism.

And it's important to understand that privilege begets privilege. It's not just about the college degree that can be more difficult to obtain for people of color because of institutional issues, but the many doors that are opened before, during and after college that lead to real economic opportunities.

And it's important to understand that privilege begets privilege. It's not just about the college degree that can be more difficult to obtain for people of color because of institutional issues, but the many doors that are opened before, during and after college that lead to real economic opportunities.

Yes, and people tend to recommend, approve, hire and promote those most like themselves.

So when almost all the people in power are of the same gender and race, you get more and more of the same and change occurs very slowly, if at all.

Everything I tried to say, Jon Stewart said it 100 times better. This is worth your time: The Brotherhood of the Traveling Chants & To Catch a Prejudice - The Daily Show - Video Clip | Comedy Central (http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/riop51/the-brotherhood-of-the-traveling-chants---to-catch-a-prejudice)

He is genius. I am already mourning him leaving the Daily Show.

Should Joe Mixon be dragged into frat video mess? | News OK (http://newsok.com/should-joe-mixon-be-dragged-into-frat-video-mess/article/5400747?custom_click=rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

... When you see a cockroach, you know there are many more hidden from view, this incident is a cockroach. ...

:tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat:

To the surprise of few, the fraternity is not going away quietly.

OU SAE to sue university, possibly President Boren | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2015/03/12/ou-sae-to-sue-ou-possibly-president-boren/)


The local chapter of Sigma Alpha Epsilon is planning to pursue legal action against the University of Oklahoma, and possibly OU President David Boren.

The group has hired high-profile attorney, Stephen Jones to represent them.

Jones told NewsChannel 4 the group is outraged over President Boren shutting down the fraternity house and branding all SAE members as racists and bigots.

Didn't their national organization shut them down first? Doesn't that take precedence anyway?

Didn't their national organization shut them down first? Doesn't that take precedence anyway?

That was exactly what I said to my wife when I saw it on the news. It is a moot point if pulling charter occurred. However, what I gathered from the news is that part of the lawsuit may be over Boren allegedly calling the entire fraternity racists. I don't know what he said so don't know if any traction to it. If you file a lawsuit...you open yourself up to discovery and depositions. Does SAE want their dirty laundry dragged out into public view? Seems national would put s stop to this quickly.

I watched the entire Boren news conference. Never once did he say the entire chapter was racist. And Jeep is right about discovery and depositions opening up their dirty laundry to the world. Even if the majority of the chapter were on the track to canonization, there surely would still be enough to really embarrassing stuff from others to make things...really embarrassing.

....You keep trying to justify & make light of the racism black people face by you saying white people experience racism to,...

Well, tell you what BRO, I haven't justified racism at all in this forum - please feel free to point out where you think I have. My argument has CONSISTENTLY been that the remarks were wrong but that the punishment should be rational. Simply because I don't agree with your degree of punishment, doesn't make me a racist apologist. I argue that the frat house should have been closed and that the students should face some sort of punishment, but that expulsion was not a good response.

So, as long as one race gets the brunt of racism then everyone should just suck it up when the opposite happens and the majority is a target of racism?

"White picket fence" - love when people argue something they know nothing about. I have plenty of 'real life experience with minorities' and continue to do so.

I trust all will remember that Jones defended Timothy McVeigh some 20 years ago.

Meanwhile, this popped up this morning: Another SAE frat chapter accused of slurs | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/national/another-sae-frat-chapter-accused-of-slurs/31772516)

Tipping point, anyone?

To the surprise of few, the fraternity is not going away quietly.

OU SAE to sue university, possibly President Boren | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2015/03/12/ou-sae-to-sue-ou-possibly-president-boren/)

Wow, apparently they aren't done with the bad ideas. Having all possible dirty laundry dragged out into the light is not going to make them look less like racists.

Ive been too busy to post over the last few days but was planning to post responses to a few people and provide more details on this, but given the fact that this is no longer a done deal, I'm going to hold off until this played out. I will say that based on everything I've learned, there is a ton of information missing from what is being portrayed in the media. Again, I don't agree with what these guys did, as it is not something that we even thought about while I was there and was obviously wrong, but they do have a case as does the fraternity if they choose to pursue it. ThisIs not just a last resort shot in the dark, they've been advised by many different legal groups. While people keep bringing up all of SAE's dirty laundry that could be aired, the laudry that would cause by far the most outrage is already out there and it wasn't near as widespread within the house as it is being portrayed. Also from what I've been told there is plenty of dirty laudry to go around from Boren down to the football team who is pushing a lot of this. There are some other major factors involved that could make this pretty ugly for everyone. This will be a mess if it makes it to court. That's all I can say for now, I'm going to take a leave of absence from this thread until it's settled.

I trust all will remember that Jones defended Timothy McVeigh some 20 years ago.

Meanwhile, this popped up this morning: Another SAE frat chapter accused of slurs | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/national/another-sae-frat-chapter-accused-of-slurs/31772516)

Tipping point, anyone?

Yeah, I think this is more an SAE thing than an OU thing.

Each fraternity and sorority has its own reputation. You had the fat sorority, the slutty sorority, the jock fraternity, the rich guy fraternity, etc. That reputation can change over time, depending on how the house membership changes. Guys graduate, new pledges come in, the personality of the house changes. When I was at OU, it was the KAs and not the SAEs who had the reputation for being the Confederate flag-waving racists. The reputation varies from house to house and from university to university. The "fat sorority" on one campus can be the "hot rich girl sorority" on another. It just depends.

Ive been too busy to post over the last few days but was planning to post responses to a few people and provide more details on this, but given the fact that this is no longer a done deal, I'm going to hold off until this played out. I will say that based on everything I've learned, there is a ton of information missing from what is being portrayed in the media. Again, I don't agree with what these guys did, as it is not something that we even thought about while I was there and was obviously wrong, but they do have a case as does the fraternity if they choose to pursue it. ThisIs not just a last resort shot in the dark, they've been advised by many different legal groups. While people keep bringing up all of SAE's dirty laundry that could be aired, the laudry that would cause by far the most outrage is already out there and it wasn't near as widespread within the house as it is being portrayed. Also from what I've been told there is plenty of dirty laudry to go around from Boren down to the football team who is pushing a lot of this. There are some other major factors involved that could make this pretty ugly for everyone. This will be a mess if it makes it to court. That's all I can say for now, I'm going to take a leave of absence from this thread until it's settled.

There's still the question of how those boys knew the song, and where else could they have learned it other than from inside the house from other members? How could full details on that cause less outrage than them singing the song itself?

There's still the question of how those boys knew the song, and where else could they have learned it other than from inside the house from other members? How could full details on that cause less outrage than them singing the song itself?

The rumor is that some variant of the song has been sung at other fraternities. Maybe they Googled "douchey frat songs".

There's still the question of how those boys knew the song, and where else could they have learned it other than from inside the house from other members? How could full details on that cause less outrage than them singing the song itself?

I know all the details on it but can not discuss right now.

Seems to me this will have more long-standing implications in terms of reputation damage on the University than it will on the Fraternity. How many minority students are changing their minds against attending the University because of this incident? How many professors may leave? How many donations or research dollars could they stand to lose, or grant monies where equality criteria are considered? We know about the recruit issue, which football aside, is what it is, but the damage could be far greater.

As much as SAE's reputation has been sullied (and really, given ongoing anecdotal evidence, these types of things are not isolated to one chapter), the damage to the University may be greater. If someone is going to sue, why not the fraternity sue the two kids for institutional damage? Why not go after the person who leaked the video for same (surely they can figure out who it was based upon where he or she was sitting).

While I don't disagree there aren't grounds for a lawsuit, the fact that SAE also has chosen Stephen Jones to represent them speaks volumes as well, and not in a good way, IMO.

When I was in school, SAE was booted off of campus for a hazing incident. They survived and came back. No doubt, they will find a way back again, and hopefully, after the national organization has taken a strong and serious look at individual chapters across the country where other incidents have occurred.

One thing this whole situation keeps bringing to mind, is how many other orgs/clubs (non-campus/fraternity) have songs and chants that if filmed and put online, would cause similar reactions. A lot of the rugby songs I know are pretty offensive (and a few that could be considered racist). There's a large crossover of those songs into some running clubs, and I also know running clubs which give all their established members nicknames that can be pretty offensive at times. It's sort of that larger concept of basement songs, where people are singing stuff they don't really mean but could, as we've seen, have serious repercussions if video or audio of it got out. So when we're talking about tipping points, this could be another one, where all these cultures start to change and evolve a bit.

One thing this whole situation keeps bringing to mind, is how many other orgs/clubs (non-campus/fraternity) have songs and chants that if filmed and put online, would cause similar reactions. A lot of the rugby songs I know are pretty offensive (and a few that could be considered racist). There's a large crossover of those songs into some running clubs, and I also know running clubs which give all their established members nicknames that can be pretty offensive at times. It's sort of that larger concept of basement songs, where people are singing stuff they don't really mean but could, as we've seen, have serious repercussions if video or audio of it got out. So when we're talking about tipping points, this could be another one, where all these cultures start to change and evolve a bit.

Very good points. This certainly extends past the fraternity system and even college organizations.

That's why this issue coming to light and the grave consequences to those involved is so important.

Long before now, someone at the SAE house should have said, "We aren't doing this anymore." Even if that wasn't based on morality, the actual risk to individuals and the organization should be plenty of motivation.

I suspect a lot of fraternities, sports clubs and fraternal organizations have been having hushed conversations about how they need to completely drop some of their 'traditions'.

Perhaps, that's the best possible thing to come out of this whole mess.

I suspect a lot of fraternities, sports clubs and fraternal organizations have been having hushed conversations about how they need to completely drop some of their 'traditions'.

Perhaps, that's the best possible thing to come out of this whole mess.And that's why I like to hope that this proves to be a tipping point toward the underlying problem's eventual solution. Great journeys begin with a single step, and the more groups taking that step, the better.

ACLU of Oklahoma Statement in Response to the University of Oklahoma?s Announcement of VP of Diversity Position | American Civil Liberties Union of Oklahoma (http://acluok.org/2015/03/aclu-of-oklahoma-statement-in-response-to-the-university-of-oklahomas-announcement-of-vp-of-diversity-position/)


As a state-run institution of higher education, the University of Oklahoma must also respect First Amendment principles that are central to the mission of every university. Any sanction imposed on students for their speech must therefore be consistent with the First Amendment and not merely a punishment for vile and reprehensible speech; courts have consistently and rightly ruled as such. Absent information that is not at our disposal, it is difficult to imagine a situation in which a court would side with the university on this matter. We are closely monitoring the situation and will appropriately respond to new details as they emerge. In the meantime, we stand in solid support of the brave and thoughtful students whose public dialogue on race and the rights of all minority students in response to the incident have embodied the spirit of the First Amendment.

Until now, all these songs and chants and jokes were easily rationalized by asserting they are all just fun and games; just harmless words and nobody really believes in the underlying message.

You can still try and make that excuse, but at the same time you know it isn't going to fly when someone outside your inner circle gets wind of it.

The consequences are now very clear and fear is a great motivator, even when your own conscience fails you.

Should Joe Mixon be dragged into frat video mess? | News OK (http://newsok.com/should-joe-mixon-be-dragged-into-frat-video-mess/article/5400747?custom_click=rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

So is Berry saying that you only properly punish people if it gets widespread coverage and damages the brand? So the two SAE's wouldnt be expelled if this video was from a pizza restaurant's security cameras and wasnt released to the world? Or Joe Mixon would be expelled if his video did go viral?

So the two SAE's wouldnt be expelled if this video was from a pizza restaurant's security cameras and wasnt released to the world? Or Joe Mixon would be expelled if his video did go viral?

Oh, absolutely. The reaction from Boren and the national SAE org would have been very different if this hadn't hit so big and visible.

So the frat in the racist video that has gone around the world giving both OU and Oklahoma a very ugly black eye wants to sue using Timothy McVeigh’s lawyer. Tim McVeigh who had ties to the Christian Identity and White Power movements and leveled the federal building in Oklahoma City killing as many people as he could including infants.

This frat got away with just having to move and having the two members in video leading the incredibly racist chant expelled when there were dozens of participants on the bus that now will all be deposed and exposed. These frat bros are now going to ensure that all their names are out publically forever tied to this video and are going to have answer questions under oath, under threat of criminal perjury about what behavior they did or did not participate in including hazing, underage drinking, and of course racist behavior. Not to mention criminally providing liquor to underage drinkers, you know, the drunk freshman on the bus that were expelled.

You just can’t make this crap up, it’s too out there. Timothy McVeigh’s lawyer on top of it all. Really?

I think I will take MORONS for $1000 Alex.

Steve Jones is probably one of the few lawyers that would touch this case.

The officers and board members of the OU SAE chapter are smart to get some sort of legal help, though.

As the heat gets turned up to find out where this song came from and how it was spread throughout that house, they all face the possibility of tough consequences with a financial component. Officers and directors have a direct and indisputable responsibility for the entire organization, after all.

I served on the alumni board for the DU house in the 80's and let's just say I had some sleepless nights as a young professional with far more to lose than the college kids that I knew to be doing all types of crazy stuff. All that 'good college fun' looks a lot different as an adult operating in the business world.

So is Berry saying that you only properly punish people if it gets widespread coverage and damages the brand? So the two SAE's wouldnt be expelled if this video was from a pizza restaurant's security cameras and wasnt released to the world? Or Joe Mixon would be expelled if his video did go viral?

Breaking my code of silence but this is one of my biggest issues with the hypocrisy in Boren's response to each of these. I could type out how I feel about it but these articles sum it up pretty well. Both bad situations but if violent criminal actions+hurtful speech (a gay slur that instigated the conflict) in Mixon's case doesn't warrant expulsion and allows a second chance, why should hurtful speech alone warrant expulsion with no due process and second chance? It's a dangerous double standard and it's equally dangerous to punish based on public reaction over the severity of the actual offense.


Oklahoma Stands Tall Against Racism, Weak Against Violence | FOX Sports (http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/oklahoma-stands-tall-against-racism-weak-against-violence-031015)


University of Oklahoma President Calls Outkick Article | FOX Sports (http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/oklahoma-president-calls-outkick-article-sheer-and-utter-nonsense-031115)


First Amendment Withers As Social Media Mobs Take Flight | FOX Sports (http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/first-amendment-withers-as-social-media-mobs-take-flight-031215)

... and it wasn't near as widespread within the house as it is being portrayed.

And that may very well may be true. If that's indeed the case, they should proceed with their suit in order to try and get it out in the open. Personally, I find it quite concerning that all 150+ members of the organization have now been publicly labeled as "racists" over the despicable actions of what we only know at this time to be a few students on that bus.

Was listening to the Jones presser and he said he is not repping the two main guys involved but did say they had withdrawn from OU before being 'expelled'.

Said his clients are seeking a non-adversarial solution on several issues, including the SAE house.

Breaking my code of silence but this is one of my biggest issues with the hypocrisy in Boren's response to each of these. I could type out how I feel about it but these articles sum it up pretty well. Both bad situations but if violent criminal actions+hurtful speech (a gay slur that instigated the conflict) in Mixon's case doesn't warrant expulsion and allows a second chance, why should hurtful speech alone warrant expulsion with no due process and second chance? It's a dangerous double standard and it's equally dangerous to punish based on public reaction over the severity of the actual offense.


Oklahoma Stands Tall Against Racism, Weak Against Violence | FOX Sports (http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/oklahoma-stands-tall-against-racism-weak-against-violence-031015)


University of Oklahoma President Calls Outkick Article | FOX Sports (http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/oklahoma-president-calls-outkick-article-sheer-and-utter-nonsense-031115)


First Amendment Withers As Social Media Mobs Take Flight | FOX Sports (http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/first-amendment-withers-as-social-media-mobs-take-flight-031215)

If you have influence, you need to talk to these punks.

There is a difference between what happened between individuals and the conduct of school organizations on official outings.

First off, what is the upside for SAE here? The charter was pulled by Nationals before the school did it, there’s no going back.

Here’s the downside. Boren wants these guys gone, he’s very upset and is going to pull no punches. They just gave him the chance.

Every member is going to deposed, under oath and you know that OU lawyer are going to be looking for illegal behavior in the frat and will have a long list of questions pulled right from the student code of conduct just looking for reasons to expel each of them. What criminal behavior is uncovered, assault, underage drinking, providing alcohol, any sex related issues will be quickly forwarded to the Cleveland County DA.

And then there is the counter suit. Members of the frat at an official event have done immesuarble harm to the university. OU is going to counter sue SAE’s asses off with a much better argument than “but, but, you were more harsh on us than those black football players”

Morons isn’t actually strong enough. But then they were stupid enough to have racist cheers videotaped in the 21st century.

Was listening to the Jones presser and he said he is not repping the two main guys involved but did say they had withdrawn from OU before being 'expelled'.

Said his clients are seeking a non-adversarial solution on several issues, including the SAE house.

Why would OU agree to that? That's stupid.

If you have influence, you need to talk to these punks.

There is a difference between what happened between individuals and the conduct of school organizations on official outings.

First off, what is the upside for SAE here? The charter was pulled by Nationals before the school did it, there’s no going back.

Here’s the downside. Boren wants these guys gone, he’s very upset and is going to pull no punches. They just gave him the chance.

Every member is going to deposed, under oath and you know that OU lawyer are going to be looking for illegal behavior in the frat and will have a long list of questions pulled right from the student code of conduct just looking for reasons to expel each of them. What criminal behavior is uncovered, assault, underage drinking, providing alcohol, any sex related issues will be quickly forwarded to the Cleveland County DA.

And then there is the counter suit. Members of the frat at an official event have done immesuarble harm to the university. OU is going to counter sue SAE’s asses off with a much better argument than “but, but, you were more harsh on us than those black football players”

Morons isn’t actually strong enough. But then they were stupid enough to have racist cheers videotaped in the 21st century.

The bolded text is no longer entirely correct.

the group in charge of this are not a bunch of idiots and they as well as I have much more knowledge about the situation than you do. They wouldn't haul off and do this for the hell of it, it has been well thought out. They may not be successful but the positives far outweigh the negatives.

Your posts are way too extreme, insulting, and take too much of a condescending tone for them to be worthy of my responses any more. I've had to deal with enough over the last week and am not going to sit here and deal with some anonymous poster talking to me like I'm an idiot. Im out, you guys enjoy and continue the debate.

OK, I've read alot of this. And I've seen the news about what the SAE idiots did. Maybe it's just me, but shouldn't there be a longer, more thorough, body-cavity-search-quality look given to the ENTIRE Greek system? When I was at OU in the 80's, here's what I observed about the Greek system:
White fraternities/sororities excluded blacks
Black fraternities/sororities excluded whites
Rich white kids excluded poor white kids
Pretty white girls excluded ugly white girls

The whole system seems built on one thing, and one thing only; exclusion
Has the Greek system's time come and gone?

Maybe I'm wrong

The bolded text is no longer entirely correct.

Even if true, that doesn't change the huge downside from going after OU. And OU can't back down, the public relations hit would be huge. They can't win.

From a practical standpoint, there is no way the SAE's return to OU for at least decades and probably ever.

Fair or not, that's the reality.

This isn't like the late 80's where the house just stayed closed for several years and then later reopened, so something is going to have to be done with that property.

OK, I've read alot of this. And I've seen the news about what the SAE idiots did. Maybe it's just me, but shouldn't there be a longer, more thorough, body-cavity-search-quality look given to the ENTIRE Greek system? When I was at OU in the 80's, here's what I observed about the Greek system:
White fraternities/sororities excluded blacks
Black fraternities/sororities excluded whites
Rich white kids excluded poor white kids
Pretty white girls excluded ugly white girls

The whole system seems built on one thing, and one thing only; exclusion
Has the Greek system's time come and gone?

Maybe I'm wrong

At my daughter’s college the Greek system exists, barely, but is completely different than it is at the large state schools.

There’s only two frats and one sorority, they are non-residential and by rule cannot be exclusionary at all. Like all organizations at the school everyone that wants to join can so long as they meet rules like grades or hours of time working with the org.

My daughter is in the one sorority actually and enjoys it.

From a practical standpoint, there is no way the SAE's return to OU for at least decades and probably ever.

Fair or not, that's the reality.

This isn't like the late 80's where the house just stayed closed for several years and then later reopened, so something is going to have to be done with that property.

Again from everything I've heard on the inside of it, that is not true either.

OK, I've read alot of this. And I've seen the news about what the SAE idiots did. Maybe it's just me, but shouldn't there be a longer, more thorough, body-cavity-search-quality look given to the ENTIRE Greek system? When I was at OU in the 80's, here's what I observed about the Greek system:
White fraternities/sororities excluded blacks
Black fraternities/sororities excluded whites
Rich white kids excluded poor white kids
Pretty white girls excluded ugly white girls

The whole system seems built on one thing, and one thing only; exclusion
Has the Greek system's time come and gone?

Maybe I'm wrong

Exclusion can be applied to so many things though. I'm not advocating exclusion on race but exclusion in general is very widespread. Exclusion from Universities, exclusion from sports teams, exclusion from lenders.

Is that wrong? Should everybody be allowed to participate in everything they want to? Should I be on OU's football team just because I like football or should I be hand selected to make the team better?

Exclusion exists in every culture in a million different ways; always has and always will.

OU excludes students below certain academic standards and those who can't come up with the tuition money.

Exclusion in itself is almost necessary in society but exclusion specifically due to race and for no other reason is something prohibited by law and just as importantly, tied directly to horrific aspects of this country's past that at least to some small degree have been carried forward.

Exclusion exists in every culture in a million different ways; always has and always will.

OU excludes students below certain academic standards and those who can't come up with the tuition money.

Exclusion in itself is almost necessary in society but exclusion specifically due to race and for no other reason is something prohibited by law and just as importantly, tied directly to horrific aspects of this country's past that at least some small degree have been carried forward.

Agreed. And exactly my point. I don't know that there is anything wrong with the basic premise of fraternities excluding people. Based on race? 100 percent against that. Parent's income level? Depends, they have to be able to pay their house bill. Same premise of an apartment building checking your credit history.

BTW, as much as it bucks stereotypes, fraternities and sororities don't really give a rip about the income of someone's family.

Now, if your mom or dad were powerful and influential OR happened to be a powerful alum of your organization, that's different. But no different than anyone else wanting to associate with connected people. And even then, that rarely comes into play.

Remember, state colleges are the ones with by far the biggest Greek systems and they aren't exactly crawling with Kennedy's and the children of presidents. Way more greeks from Broken Arrow and Moore schools than Dallas Jesuit or even Casady. (If you know anyone from Casady you'll also know many/most go to private out-of-state colleges).

I also know that living in the frat house for me was no more expensive than the dorms or getting an apartment. I paid slightly less than I paid in the dorms my freshman year. Some elements were extra like big parties and party favors, but I didn't get those in the dorms anyway and they were completely optional and separate from your house bill.

My family was mid- to lower-middle class and I worked full-time to pay my way through college. I was rushed by all the "rich boy" fraternities and that issue never came up once. They are upfront about their costs and just assume you can afford the freight if you continue to show interest.

It's why I bristle with all the "I don't need to buy my friends" slurs. It's fine to not like Greek houses but the money argument is pretty silly.

BTW, as much as it bucks stereotypes, fraternities and sororities don't really give a rip about the income of someone's family.

Now, if your mom or dad were powerful and influential OR happened to be a powerful alum of your organization, that's different. But no different than anyone else wanting to associate with connected people. And even then, that rarely comes into play.

Remember, state colleges are the ones with by far the biggest Greek systems and they aren't exactly crawling with Kennedy's and the children of presidents. Way more greeks from Broken Arrow and Edmond schools than Dallas Jesuit or even Casady. (If you know anyone from Casady you'll also know many/most go to private out-of-state colleges).

I also know that living in the frat house for me was no more expensive than the dorms or getting an apartment. I paid slightly less than I paid in the dorms my freshman year. Some elements were extra like big parties and party favors, but I didn't get those in the dorms anyway and they were completely optional and separate from your house bill.

My family was mid- to lower-middle class and I worked full-time to pay my way through college. I was rushed by all the "rich boy" fraternities and that issue never came up once. They are upfront about their costs and just assume you can afford the freight if you continue to show interest.

It's why I bristle with all the "I don't need to buy my friends" slurs. It's fine to not like Greek houses but the money argument is pretty silly.

Yes to this 100%. I specifically joined a fraternity when I was a freshman because it was cheaper than living in the dorms and buying the mandatory meal plan.

Said that way better than what I was trying to say about parents' income levels.

Also, my frat house was just west of campus and super close to the library and business school where I spent most my campus time. Also an easy walk to Campus Corner.

Way better situated than when I lived in Walker Tower as a freshman. Then, I remember having classes on the north oval and having to walk forever to get back to the dorm cafeteria then walk all the way back again. And everybody drove to Campus Corner if they went at all.

And a million times better than living off campus and having to fight (and pay) for a space and still have to walk a mile.

They used to have free movie screenings and other great events on campus and the people there were mainly Greeks because they were ones who actually lived right on campus and were involved. I think this is what Boren is aiming at with the new residential colleges, and it's really smart.


Simply put, my fraternity living situation was better than any other alternative and was no more expensive. That alone made my college experience much better than it would have been otherwise.

Sidebar: I was lectured several times while in school that a fraternity should NEVER be referred to as a "frat." Especially by members. I was told that it was about as offensive as contracting the word "country," as in the U.S. of A. Or, put more plainly..."you would never call your country a c___, would you?" I guess this has changed? I see lots of former fraternity members here freely referring to their houses as "frats."

I don't like the term frat, mainly because because it's usually used in a derisive way; especially 'frat rat'.

But I'm far enough removed from all that I no longer really care. :)

Sidebar: I was lectured several times while in school that a fraternity should NEVER be referred to as a "frat." Especially by members. I was told that it was about as offensive as contracting the word "country," as in the U.S. of A. Or, put more plainly..."you would never call your country a c___, would you?" I guess this has changed? I see lots of former fraternity members here freely referring to their houses as "frats."

I got that lecture a couple of times too, lol.

If you notice in my posts the only time I use the term 'frat' is when referring to certain members who view fraternity life as just a big party. I had a lot more respect for my fraternity and what we tried to accomplish and stood for than to refer to myself as a frat boy. I'm sure that sounds snobby, but most of the guys I associated with weren't in it to get drunk all the time and party. I, as well as my close friends from tons of chapters, took our roles as fraternity and sorority members seriously. A lot of the times, the ones who don't respect the system, are the ones who are saying racist chants, and blind folding guys in the middle of nowhere, and forcing pledges to drink until they vomit, and pointing loaded shotguns at people. I think if outsiders, for lack of a better word, could look into the system they would see two very different sides.

Now, let me climb down from my soapbox and enjoy this beautiful saturday in Ontario.

So here, On/Just Over The Cusp of The End of Pi Day
(and the beginning of another day, non Pi),
I submit the following thoughts, for your consideration
(vis-a-vis The OU Frat Bus Outrage):

These were a bunch of Dumbass FratBoyz (with some SororitySisters along for the ride).
[this is exactly the sort of behavior for which frats are famous at least imho).]

They shot off their stupid, ignorant and vaguely hateful mouths
in a way that was (personally, to me, for real) incredibly offensive.

My first thought about this was: I guess The Greek System
is and ain’t what it’s all cracked up to be.
Yet I remained unsurprised.

Then, I read that the entire Frat had been, like, disbanded r’ whatnot.
I wondered about that anomolie for a couple of seconds.
In terms of Fairness and The First Amendment.

Then, I noticed that Steven Jones (the high profile case lawyer that NEVER wins)
and even the ACLU are getting involved.

On the one hand, I guess this is admirable. Sort of.
On the other . . .
Personally, I think that every member of the O.U. Chapter of “S.A.E.”
[Semi-Technically Sigma Alpha Epsilon]
beyond their expulsion from O.U.
should be put into boxes and
shipped to points unknown beginning with
an Official Asswhuppin’ in Singapore,
followed by
excursions to the Gulags in Siberia
and after that a short stay in The Hinterlands of China.

And, after that another excursion into Cambodia.
It might lend perspective to reality.

Good News is that Steven Jones and The ACLU are both suing OU.
Let’s Face it Folks . . . We Are ALL Bozos on THIS Bus.

(just so you know: I personally encountered the Local Chapter of The Denver Branch of The Black Panther Party down at Five Points on a friendly basis back around the time I rejected Frats. (well . . . I was there. As an Altfratteen/TeeNigah c. ‘68 =) (still not a “racist” btw=)

Sorry, that might have been overly complex:
Please allow me to break it down/simplify . . .
Rush Limbaugh was close to right
Vis-à-vis Comfortable Comrades
and
The Former Music Business. =)

(Take the Rant. . .Do The Chant)

So . . . I Recon that the next time I encounter an Irishman (or even seasoned students) on a Northbound Bus, I will give the a Tip o' The Hat (metaphorically speekn,o kourse?)

If you notice in my posts the only time I use the term 'frat' is when referring to certain members who view fraternity life as just a big party. I had a lot more respect for my fraternity and what we tried to accomplish and stood for than to refer to myself as a frat boy. I'm sure that sounds snobby, but most of the guys I associated with weren't in it to get drunk all the time and party. I, as well as my close friends from tons of chapters, took our roles as fraternity and sorority members seriously. A lot of the times, the ones who don't respect the system, are the ones who are saying racist chants, and blind folding guys in the middle of nowhere, and forcing pledges to drink until they vomit, and pointing loaded shotguns at people. I think if outsiders, for lack of a better word, could look into the system they would see two very different sides.

Now, let me climb down from my soapbox and enjoy this beautiful saturday in Ontario.

I agree with you. I was in a fraternity for a while in college, and I wasn't surprised in the least when I saw the SAE video. I absolutely knew guys who would say things like that. They were usually the guys who flunked out of school before they finished their sophomore year. Most of the guys in the Greek system weren't like that, but there were some. Some people just use college as an excuse to go crazy.

Sidebar: I was lectured several times while in school that a fraternity should NEVER be referred to as a "frat." Especially by members. I was told that it was about as offensive as contracting the word "country," as in the U.S. of A. Or, put more plainly..."you would never call your country a c___, would you?" I guess this has changed? I see lots of former fraternity members here freely referring to their houses as "frats."

So what's the big deal if you refer to your country as a "count"? "Frat" is short for fraternity, just like "count" would be for country. Other than not making much sense.

So what's the big deal if you refer to your country as a "count"? "Frat" is short for fraternity, just like "count" would be for country. Other than not making much sense.

We were told the same thing from Day 1 Urbanized, we always referred to ourselves, the house, etc. as a fraternity.. not frat.

And "count" isn't the abbreviation he was referring to....

Wonder how Love's Country Stores financial support has changed because of this? One of their kids was apparently living in the house when this happened. I hear they are not happy with Boren's response.

So what's the big deal if you refer to your country as a "count"? "Frat" is short for fraternity, just like "count" would be for country. Other than not making much sense.

michael hunt, unavailable for comment. -M