I don't see anything inherently evil in being exclusionary.

Still effectively the top story on the Today show this AM, following only a breaking item on the military chopper crash.

These idiot Texas children have caused incredible harm to the reputations of OU and the state of Oklahoma. We've somehow become the poster children of racist behavior, despite the fact that it is far from the truth. Not to dismiss the obvious truth that racism surely exists here, but Oklahoma in general is vastly more inclusionary and friendly to all than places in the true South.

I'm hopeful that at some point soon something emerges from some SEC area schools, where even the average student probably shares the same racist sentiments that these Texas kids do. The national media glare of this is unfairly directed at the school and the whole state.

nm

I don't see anything inherently evil in being exclusionary.

I don't either, basically, and maybe it's the fault of those who don't understand that they don't fit the exclusive picture for trying to belong (thinking about putting my tongue in cheek here). But they could exclude nicely and quietly. Because when you don't, it gives impressionable freshman who are invited to join the impression that there's something better about them than the others, and those not invited to join get the impression there's something wrong with them. When in reality, the criteria used to select members does not necessarily predict future success in life. It certainly doesn't predict ethical behavior, clearly. Listening to Desmond Mason's story on the radio of being invited to a fraternity party and how he was treated when he got there echoed those of other African American athletes. As has been said, this was not a unique, isolated event.

One of my sons belonged to a fraternity, so I'm not speaking as someone who is anti-fraternity. The other likely would have too, had he not gone to the Naval Academy. Both of my daughters joined sororities. I think, under the right circumstances, being a member of these kinds of organizations can be a good thing. But not if they promote the above kind of behavior.

A lot of what is wrong with fraternity culture comes from sites like Total Frat Move, which sort of feeds this Southern, racist, elitist machine. Young, impressionable kids of HS age see that and think that's what fraternity life is--Sperries, bow ties, mockery of GDIs, excessive drinking and of course, homophobia and blatant racism.

And while sites like TFM probably do accurately describe some fraternities, the VAST majority of us see TFM as chavanistic, haughty, and not at all descriptive of something we are a part of or have any desire to be a part of.

I dont' deny that we all have problem chapters. There's an element of racism alive and well in the U.S. and fraternities are simply a reflection of the society which produces them. The anger here is misdirected at SAE. These were 19-year-old kids who were simply acting as they were raised to.

This problem will not be solved by closing a fraternity chapter and expelling a couple of students or by any amount of protesting and "awareness." This problem will ultimately be solved by a culture which progresses gradually to inclusiveness and ultimately, it will require a lot of folks to either die off or experience some sort of major change.

I can certainly understand every bit of the anger folks are feeling towards this. Growing up white, in Edmond, I'll never understand what it's like to grow up a minority, especially in Oklahoma. I have absolutely zero sympathy for the frat, or for these two boys.

However, the more I've thought about the chilling effects of the expulsion, the more I'm worried about this becoming a slipper slope. Can a gay student push for expulsion for students who are members of the campus Republican organization (considering the official stance of the GOP is anti gay rights)? They could certainly make the argument that in much the same way it creates a hostile school environment. It's not hard to think of more examples where a policy like this could be applied. Heck, what if I as a student attended a local biker rally, and a pic got put of me online and there happened to be a rebel flag in the background? Where is the line here? Even if the line is "direct action" on the part of the student, what about signing a petition, say, in support of a ban on gay marriage, or the like?

I can certainly understand every bit of the anger folks are feeling towards this. Growing up white, in Edmond, I'll never understand what it's like to grow up a minority, especially in Oklahoma. I have absolutely zero sympathy for the frat, or for these two boys.

However, the more I've thought about the chilling effects of the expulsion, the more I'm worried about this becoming a slipper slope. Can a gay student push for expulsion for students who are members of the campus Republican organization (considering the official stance of the GOP is anti gay rights)? They could certainly make the argument that in much the same way it creates a hostile school environment. It's not hard to think of more examples where a policy like this could be applied. Heck, what if I as a student attended a local biker rally, and a pic got put of me online and there happened to be a rebel flag in the background? Where is the line here? Even if the line is "direct action" on the part of the student, what about signing a petition, say, in support of a ban on gay marriage, or the like?
You are dead right on on this. I am in no way condoning what was done by these two. I believe legally this opens up a huge can of worms. When everyone gets past the emotional responses to all this, people will begin to think about exactly what you are bringing up here.

I can certainly understand every bit of the anger folks are feeling towards this. Growing up white, in Edmond, I'll never understand what it's like to grow up a minority, especially in Oklahoma. I have absolutely zero sympathy for the frat, or for these two boys.

However, the more I've thought about the chilling effects of the expulsion, the more I'm worried about this becoming a slipper slope. Can a gay student push for expulsion for students who are members of the campus Republican organization (considering the official stance of the GOP is anti gay rights)? They could certainly make the argument that in much the same way it creates a hostile school environment. It's not hard to think of more examples where a policy like this could be applied. Heck, what if I as a student attended a local biker rally, and a pic got put of me online and there happened to be a rebel flag in the background? Where is the line here? Even if the line is "direct action" on the part of the student, what about signing a petition, say, in support of a ban on gay marriage, or the like?

Only if it gets media attention. If this didn't get so much media attention then a slap on the wrist would have occurred.

Someone asked the question if the words were replaced with offensive words about the LGBT community would the same thing happen? I think only if the media attention was high.

I can certainly understand every bit of the anger folks are feeling towards this. Growing up white, in Edmond, I'll never understand what it's like to grow up a minority, especially in Oklahoma. I have absolutely zero sympathy for the frat, or for these two boys.

However, the more I've thought about the chilling effects of the expulsion, the more I'm worried about this becoming a slipper slope. Can a gay student push for expulsion for students who are members of the campus Republican organization (considering the official stance of the GOP is anti gay rights)? They could certainly make the argument that in much the same way it creates a hostile school environment. It's not hard to think of more examples where a policy like this could be applied. Heck, what if I as a student attended a local biker rally, and a pic got put of me online and there happened to be a rebel flag in the background? Where is the line here? Even if the line is "direct action" on the part of the student, what about signing a petition, say, in support of a ban on gay marriage, or the like?

Not only that, but I agree with this article (not really the religious perspective to it all, but reading past that..) A Teachable Moment: How OU failed Transformation 101 (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mariadixonhall/2015/03/a-teachable-moment-how-ou-failed-transformation-101/)

Perhaps all of us on this thread should study this site and then act on its conclusion...

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke at BrainyQuote (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/e/edmundburk377528.html)

Let's go one step further. Let's say I'm in a class discussion, and I get up and make a very heartfelt argument that black people are inferior to white people. And for some reason that position is not very popular with my classmates.

Should I be expelled? Is taking an offensive and politically unpopular position grounds for expulsion?

Let's go one step further. Let's say I'm in a class discussion, and I get up and make a very heartfelt argument that black people are inferior to white people. And for some reason that position is not very popular with my classmates.

Should I be expelled? Is taking an offensive and politically unpopular position grounds for expulsion?Well, it was definitely grounds for NBC to fire Jimmy The Greek as a sports commentator, after he publicly claimed that black athletes had superior physical qualities to those of other races due to their ancestors having been selectively bred for those qualities by their owners. Seemed to me at the time, and still does, that he was only citing an unpleasant historical fact, but it was deemed offensive and unworthy of mention. For that matter, somebody wrote a book much later that strongly implied the same thing. It was called "Bootlegger's Boy" and was bylined a fellow who lives in Norman.

Refusing to study history surely dooms us to repeat it. However we also must remember that most history is written by the victors. In ancient times, losers were not likely to survive to tell their version of events. Now, everyone has the chance to go viral, and if it bleeds, it leads.

From the student handbook (from another website):


"In collaboration with the appropriate University official, the UVPSA or other appropriate administrative official vested with such authority, may immediately take Direct Administrative Action, which he/she deems necessary for the welfare or safety of the University Community; to maintain order on the campus and preserve the orderly functioning of the University; to stop or prevent interference in any manner with the public or private rights of others on University premises; to stop or prevent actions that threaten the health or safety of any person; or stop or prevent actions that destroy or damage property of the University, its students, faculty, staff, or guests."



Abusive conduct: Unwelcome conduct that is sufficiently severe and pervasive that it alters the conditions of education or employment and creates an environment that a reasonable person would find intimidating, harassing or humiliating. These circumstances could include the frequency of the conduct, its severity, and whether it is threatening or humiliating. This includes physically abusing a person or holding a person against his or her will. Simple teasing, offhanded comments and isolated incidents (unless extremely serious) will not amount to abusive conduct.

OU has more legal latitude here than some realize. This should be viewed not as just they said but the environment it created in the process. This whole confluence of evens and the reaction following it was so unique that I wouldn't believe that it could be used for something else.

And lets face it: anytime you do anything, you are putting yourself at risk of litigation. People will sue for a hair out of place. DBo decided that having these kids on campus along with the media firestorm and mounting racial tension, not to mention bad press that would metamorphisize into millions of dollars lost in the future was not worth avoiding possible lawsuits and legal fees now. Everything has a tradeoff. From statements that have been made, these kids and their families are ready to shuffle off somewhere and let this die. I imagine they got their tuition funds refunded and were allowed to have W's on their transcript instead of F's. In a possible suit, tuition will be the only thing they would be entitled to anyway....any argument about defamation of character or personal damages the university caused would be extremely difficult to prove.

Well, it was definitely grounds for NBC to fire Jimmy The Greek as a sports commentator, after he publicly claimed that black athletes had superior physical qualities to those of other races due to their ancestors having been selectively bred for those qualities by their owners. Seemed to me at the time, and still does, that he was only citing an unpleasant historical fact, but it was deemed offensive and unworthy of mention. For that matter, somebody wrote a book much later that strongly implied the same thing. It was called "Bootlegger's Boy" and was bylined a fellow who lives in Norman.

Refusing to study history surely dooms us to repeat it. However we also must remember that most history is written by the victors. In ancient times, losers were not likely to survive to tell their version of events. Now, everyone has the chance to go viral, and if it bleeds, it leads.

Yes, but a job is different than enrollment at a university. A university is a place built upon open discussion and the exchange of ideas, even controversial ones. A job is not.

I'm not going to chime in on the likelihood of success of a lawsuit without doing research. I would guess that they are at least entitled to an administrative hearing before they are expelled, but I have not read OU's bylaws.

Lots of talk about "slippery slope" and "where is the line..?" I'll just say that wherever the line is, it's probably been long crossed when someone gleefully sings about lynching another human being. Does everyone here fully understand the significance of the lynching reference in the song? This wasn't only about the N word.

Still effectively the top story on the Today show this AM, following only a breaking item on the military chopper crash.

These idiot Texas children have caused incredible harm to the reputations of OU and the state of Oklahoma. We've somehow become the poster children of racist behavior, despite the fact that it is far from the truth. Not to dismiss the obvious truth that racism surely exists here, but Oklahoma in general is vastly more inclusionary and friendly to all than places in the true South.

I'm hopeful that at some point soon something emerges from some SEC area schools, where even the average student probably shares the same racist sentiments that these Texas kids do. The national media glare of this is unfairly directed at the school and the whole state.

My dad actually called it Sunday night that these kids were probably from Dallas and some rich hood like Preston Hollow. He was only off by a few miles LOL. With that in mind, I understand that TX students have never had the best reputation at OU. But we were not all spoiled entitled brats...otherwise I agree with you. My roots run pretty deep in both states, so I can go back between the two with ease. I've always thought that OK was more conservative, but TX is more "southern" if that makes sense. The UT SAE/FIJI story is starting to grow legs so it will be interesting to see how they respond.


A lot of what is wrong with fraternity culture comes from sites like Total Frat Move, which sort of feeds this Southern, racist, elitist machine. Young, impressionable kids of HS age see that and think that's what fraternity life is--Sperries, bow ties, mockery of GDIs, excessive drinking and of course, homophobia and blatant racism.


During a hellish delay at OHare a couple of years ago I made small talk with director involved with Delta Tau Delta. He did not mention anything specifically about OU's chapter but he did say what a nightmare the southern chapters can be sometimes. I think when discussing greek life the regional disparities should be taken into consideration.

Yes, but a job is different than enrollment at a university. A university is a place built upon open discussion and the exchange of ideas, even controversial ones. A job is not.

As well as NBC is not a government entity, OU is.

Lots of talk about "slippery slope" and "where is the line..?" I'll just say that wherever the line is, it's probably been long crossed when someone gleefully sings about lynching another human being. Does everyone here fully understand the significance of the lynching reference in the song? This wasn't only about the N word.

Amen.

Lots of talk about "slippery slope" and "where is the line..?" I'll just say that wherever the line is, it's probably been long crossed when someone gleefully sings about lynching another human being. Does everyone here fully understand the significance of the lynching reference in the song? This wasn't only about the N word.

Here, lets re-write that....

"...I'll just say that wherever the line is, it's probably been long crossed when someone gleefully sings about killing cops. Does everyone here fully understand the significance of the cop killing reference in the song?

Why is one considered main stream and tolerable and the other an outrage that crosses the line?

Here, lets re-write that....

"...I'll just say that wherever the line is, it's probably been long crossed when someone gleefully sings about killing cops. Does everyone here fully understand the significance of the cop killing reference in the song?

Why is one considered main stream and tolerable and the other an outrage that crosses the line?


And then there's this.......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2j3lP-ykBg

The University may have looked at the "costs" of allowing these boys to be seen as part of the University, with their presence as tacit acceptance, versus the cost of a lawsuit. The university looks good for expelling them, and they continue to look good if they are sued. Even were they forced to readmit them, it is basically done under protest. The bad press from allowing them to stay is likely something the university felt it could not afford, regardless of the legal outcome.

OU has more legal latitude here than some realize.

They actually don't. As the many leagal scholars have written (some linked in this thread)OU likely overstepped with the expulsion because they are a govt entity and because "hate speech". While deplorable is protected speech.

However I think boren took the correct action for 2 reasons

1. This helps lessen the huge PR hit the school was taking and shows that indeed racism is NOT ok. At OU

2. He made the judgement call that possible law suit from those expelled was A not likely and B a better option than not expelling them given the climate

And then there's this.......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2j3lP-ykBg

What university or organization is this rapper a part of? What legal action is this guy facing? Its not like the OU frat brats are going to jail.

And then there's this.......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2j3lP-ykBg
What in the HELL does a New Jersey rapper have to do with this situation?

I'm a huge hip hop fan and I've never heard of this guy or song so I don't see how this is "mainstream" or tolerable.

Your reaching, Bbates.

Lots of talk about "slippery slope" and "where is the line..?" I'll just say that wherever the line is, it's probably been long crossed when someone gleefully sings about lynching another human being. Does everyone here fully understand the significance of the lynching reference in the song? This wasn't only about the N word.

And I agree with this, and have clearly stated this in multiple locations in this thread. But it doesn't change my concerns about the long term speech implications at a public university. If anything, I think the speech should be more free at an institute of higher learning than in the real world.

My dad actually called it Sunday night that these kids were probably from Dallas and some rich hood like Preston Hollow. He was only off by a few miles LOL. With that in mind, I understand that TX students have never had the best reputation at OU. But we were not all spoiled entitled brats...otherwise I agree with you. My roots run pretty deep in both states, so I can go back between the two with ease. I've always thought that OK was more conservative, but TX is more "southern" if that makes sense. The UT SAE/FIJI story is starting to grow legs so it will be interesting to see how they respond...
Yeah, when I was talking about "these idiot Texas children" I wasn't meaning Texas kids in general; only the two who were expelled. But I had the same premonition your dad did that it would probably be Dallas kids. I expect that it is still true, but my experience was that the Greek system was disproportionately populated Texas kids and especially Dallas (compared to the general OU population, which itself has lots of Texans). There also tended to be more Tulsa kids vs OKC kids. I just think those are cultural leanings of each place mentioned.

You guys are reaching so so so so so so far on this free speech BS. Did the kids break a law? NO, they aren't being punished by law. They are being punished by a university that they are a part of.

Where's all the people that need to eat crow saying they weren't taught this song???? Bet NONE of you admit to it, but its fine.

OU SAE Board: Racist chant has been going on for years, issues apology | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2015/03/11/ou-sae-board-racist-chant-has-been-going-on-for-years-issues-apology/)

But is a public university considered a state actor? IINAL but I know we have several who are on this board who can probably give their opinion...

It says 3 or 4 years ago. And Phi Alpha clearly stated that he graduated from OU in 2010. So no crow to be eaten there.

...The UT SAE/FIJI story is starting to grow legs so it will be interesting to see how they respond... ...I think when discussing greek life the regional disparities should be taken into consideration.
YES!: Other Sigma Alpha Epsilon Chapters Now Investigated for Rumored Racist Chants - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/sigma-alpha-epsilon-chapter-ut-austin-now-investigation/story?id=29551888)

That rumbling noise you hear is fraternities at institutions like Alabama, LSU and Ole Miss quaking in their penny loafers.

I know its wikipedia, but so what this is the internet & the 21st century & it shows valid sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions#Obscenity

Again, they were never accused of breaking any law but if this isn't obvious to you that you can be kicked out of a institution for threatening to HANG PEOPLE than you are so backwards that I'll never be able to get through to you. The whole world has figured out how awful this act was and yet you guys are still defending them.

Yes, we've got it. Folks don't measure up to your outrage scale. We saw that in your posts last night.

Moving on. Typically threats have to be directed at a specific person in order to qualify as threats (legally speaking). Creating a hostile environment in and of itself does not necessarily rise to the level of threats.

And rational and intelligent people can condemn the actions of SAE and these youths, while still having an honest discussion about free speech and what are the appropriate limits.

It says 3 or 4 years ago. And Phi Alpha clearly stated that he graduated from OU in 2010. So no crow to be eaten there.

He even said SAE has been going downhill since he had left for the past couple of years.

More voices asking the same questions...

It's not Unconstitutional to be Racist | Byron Williams (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/byron-williams/its-not-unconstitutional_b_6848752.html)


The ease with which one can easily sing a song for amusement that dehumanizes another cannot be eradicated by an expulsion that in my view is unconstitutional.

Absolutely not true and a major overreaction. It was one bus full of freshmen out of 5-10 total buses, even if some of them did want to do something about it, they weren't there to have a say. If they took issue with it in the past, and these guys did it on a separate bus anyway, how would this be their fault? I know a few good guys that are still in the house that absolutely had absolutely nothing to do with this and were as pissed as everyone else. There are 150 active members in that fraternity, some of which don't even live in the house anymore. There are always a variety of beliefs held when there are that many people involved. As I mentioned earlier, that has taken a turn lately but it doesn't mean there are not several people in the fraternity that aren't just as pissed about this as you are. You don't just haul off and ruin 150 peoples' academic careers when many of them likely don't agree with what happened here and had nothing to do with it. There is also apparently an African American student that is an SAE right now ironically, should he be kicked out out of OU because of something some stupid freshmen did?

No doubt that the house should be shut down and academic action should be taken against the ones directly involved (F those guys for causing all of this), but don't let emotion override rationality.


I agree with you. Easy to overreact and punish people who were not involved. Guilt by association is a slipperly slope. I think that is what Boren was saying today - they will investigate it and determine what is appropriate. OU is lucky to have David Boren at the helm. Bad day for him, OU and all of Okla. But expelling a bunch of kids with a broad brush stroke is not the answer.


First bold, come on now. I have no horse in this race, but you can teach a group of people a chant or song in a matter of hours, days, or even a week or two. We're stretching a little bit here, and as already alluded to, emotions are outweighing logic...

Here, take a read at this. Saving face? Possibly. Genuine? Possibly. Who truly knows?

..."In an Indiegogo campaign, Blake Burkhart is asking people to donate money to help house cook Howard, who has reportedly been working at the house for more than a decade.

“Those of you who lived in the house, undoubtedly came to love Howard and his infectious smile (if not his chili dogs). He was always there to chat with you and more importantly, to take care of Mom B,” Burkhart wrote."

After OU SAE chapter disbanded, fraternity alumni raise money for house cook | News OK (http://newsok.com/after-ou-sae-chapter-disbanded-fraternity-alumni-raise-money-for-house-cook/article/5399810)

Second bold, I 100% agree in regard to the damage it's done. I take this personally for a couple reasons, but also because of the perception it does to OUR state.



The chant had essentially 2 lines...It probably didn't take much time to learn it.


I saw on one of the news stories the freshmen involved didn't even live at the Frat House and all lived in the dorms.

All quotes by people who tried to claim these were just rouge freshmen.

I will agree that PhiAlpha did say things started going down hill, and he was there right outside the time frame but close enough that I can't imagine the culture changed that radically.

YES!: Other Sigma Alpha Epsilon Chapters Now Investigated for Rumored Racist Chants - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/sigma-alpha-epsilon-chapter-ut-austin-now-investigation/story?id=29551888)

That rumbling noise you hear is fraternities at institutions like Alabama, LSU and Ole Miss quaking in their penny loafers.

The quicker this becomes about SAE and not OU, the better.

You guys are reaching so so so so so so far on this free speech BS. Did the kids break a law? NO, they aren't being punished by law. They are being punished by a university that they are a part of.

And I'll give you that. But here's the problem..... The line has now been drawn. If Pres. David Boren doesn't like your words then you are out. That is a very dangerous line to draw. What if he doesn't like your affiliations with certain groups, religions or politics? There are many that fall into those categories that some would consider offensive or even 'dangerous.' At the very least, racist or non-inclusive.

Protections are not there simply for the majority or based on popular opinion.

Like the example I gave earlier - What if I was an OU student and I participated in the protest at the capitol of Muslim Day and I held up a sign that or gave a news interview. Are we giving Boren the right to expel us simply for expressing our opinion - even if we are applied at the person's point of view?

What in the HELL does a New Jersey rapper have to do with this situation?

It has everything to do with the previous poster's quote I was responding to. It wasn't just thrown out there in general. Surely you can get that.....

What if I'm an OU student and I'm playing that rap song in my dorm room? Can I be expelled for that?

Constitutional protections apply to jerks as much as they apply to the rest of us. Popular opinions don't require protection. No one gets kicked out of school for saying "I love puppies".

I'm a huge hip hop fan and I've never heard of this guy or song so I don't see how this is "mainstream" or tolerable.

Your reaching, Bbates.

Seriously, you really want me listing all the rap songs out there with anti-white, anti-cop lyrics?

Is Tupac too obscure for you?

What in the HELL does a New Jersey rapper have to do with this situation?Simply to demonstrate that racism isn't confined to white people, although I think that it's already obvious to everyone except the mass media.

Constitutional protections apply to jerks as much as they apply to the rest of us. Popular opinions don't require protection. No one gets kicked out of school for saying "I love puppies".I think the protections apply to unpopular ideas whether expressed by jerks or not, more than they do to ideas that are popular.

Nevertheless, the protections do NOT guarantee freedom from consequences, and expressing what is now encoded in law as "hate speech" certainly does not currently enjoy the protection it's promised by the First Amendment. I suspect that a properly presented case might eventually get such laws ruled unconstitutional -- but not in the present environment of distrust and fear. Even such charges as "inciting to riot" or "advocating overthrow of the government" might be determined to be protected!

Jefferson knew whereof he spoke when he warned against the "tyranny of the majority," but he seems to have been somewhat overly optimistic in his confidence that we would always have a totally free press and a well-informed populace... And even with his dedication to freedom, he signed the Alien and Sedition Act that was one of the earliest to be tossed out for violating constitutional rights.

I've said before that Boren's move was primarily political, and required in the situation. First Amendment rights only come into it a long way down the hill. The question is whether anyone -- not just the kids in the video, who do deserve some educational consequences, possibly of the sort provided by Marine Corps drill instructors -- will learn, or will we all forget it in a few days and move on to the next outrage du jour...

Simply to demonstrate that racism isn't confined to white people, although I think that it's already obvious to everyone except the mass media.

And I'd like to point out that racism isn't confined to "rich" or "privileged" people. This is of course anecdotal, but the most racist people I've encountered have been of the blue-collar variety, while I've heard or seen almost *no* racism from the "rich" people with whom I've associated. It hits all demographics, period.

The question is whether anyone -- not just the kids in the video, who do deserve some educational consequences, possibly of the sort provided by Marine Corps drill instructors -- will learn, or will we all forget it in a few days and move on to the next outrage du jour...

I think we both know the answer to that, Mr. Kyle. There have been many learning opportunities over the years. There have been many opportunities for dialogue over the years. There have been moments where We the People could have set aside a petty difference or two to make progress on...you name it. We will hop along from outrage to outrage because that's the easy thing to do.

Thinking about this reminded me of my favorite quotation. George Bernard Shaw sez: "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." Seeing as how it would mean that we might begin to think a little more before we speak or act, I certainly hope to be proven wrong.

All too true -- but such things as "tipping points" do actually exist, and can cause massive changes. Fifty years ago, Selma caused outrage that culminated almost a decade later in the civil rights legislation that has made significant (even though woefully incomplete) change in the culture of Dixieland. At that time could anyone have envisioned a major Southern city such as Atlanta to have "men of color" in significant political positions -- or a black man in the Oval Office, who got there due in part to voters in the South?

It's possible, even if not very likely, that this event could be another tipping point. Especially if similar actions at other universities throughout the nation get equal publicity, and the timing is so very close behind all the recently publicized police brutality events.

Seems to me that's the result to be hoped for, unlikely as it might appear right now.

Seriously, you really want me listing all the rap songs out there with anti-white, anti-cop lyrics?

Is Tupac too obscure for you?

I wonder what could possibly cause black people to not like cops or white people? Let's think here.

And I'd like to point out that racism isn't confined to "rich" or "privileged" people. This is of course anecdotal, but the most racist people I've encountered have been of the blue-collar variety, while I've heard or seen almost *no* racism from the "rich" people with whom I've associated. It hits all demographics, period.

Possibly because rich people have a better handle on discretion and how they express it. It is not blue collar workers who practice racial exclusion at country clubs. It is not blue collar workers (or minorities) that are in the society section of the Sunday paper either.

All too true -- but such things as "tipping points" do actually exist, and can cause massive changes. Fifty years ago, Selma caused outrage that culminated almost a decade later in the civil rights legislation that has made significant (even though woefully incomplete) change in the culture of Dixieland. At that time could anyone have envisioned a major Southern city such as Atlanta to have "men of color" in significant political positions -- or a black man in the Oval Office, who got there due in part to voters in the South?

True. I even considered that very situation a bit shortly after I posted. However, as easy as it is to get the awareness train rolling, it's just as easy for something (or someone) else to come along and derail it, especially in the world of 2015. Are the people outraged because they know we still shouldn't be having these conversations, or are they outraged because being outraged is en vogue?

I do believe MLK would heave a weary Picard facepalm if he saw what we're doing to each other, whether the skin color of the two sides matches or not. But, perhaps the journey is not yet over...


I wonder what could possibly cause black people to not like cops or white people? Let's think here.

There's nothing to think about. Nobody can deny the matters of historical record. Those matters are no excuse to stifle progress and foster a continuing hatred for other people. Both sides bear guilt. It's well past time for the extremes out there to put a rational head on their shoulders and do the right thing.

It's amazing that a few melanin cells in the skin or a paucity thereof can cause this much hatred. I just got my DNA evaluation back from National Geographic and although I am recently Scandinavian, my earliest origin is.....duh duh duh....Africa! As I suspect is everyone else's here. So my blue eyes and light skin are just due to a random mutation and the fact that my ancestors had wanderlust.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uErcO_gpWuU

Don't forget the White Walkers. They may have helped. :)


edited to get it right.. On the bright side, I'm apparently no where near the GoT geek I thought I had become..

Personally, I think the only thing expelling those two kids accomplished was to ensure that "No Cell Phones Allowed" signs will now be posted at all Fraternity private events.

... and Party Pics just became a more valued institution.

Are the people outraged because they know we still shouldn't be having these conversations, or are they outraged because being outraged is en vogue?

Some of both, of course.

But I don't think this is just another run-of-the-mill outrage-athon.


I have to say that far more that indignant, I'm actually shocked. I'm shocked that this could go on among well-healed college kids at a school like OU where the entrance standards are actually pretty high these days. And I'm even more shocked that they would not only teach that song among a larger group of 100-150 students, but that then that a decent number of them would sing it in front of mixed company without even a hint of shame.

Yes, I know they were drunk. But as I always like to point out, alcohol just opens the gates and lets something out; so that thing (racism) already had to be in there in the first place.


I'm afraid it's a wake-up call to those who like to believe things are better in this regard than they really are. Personally, I know racist jokes and thoughts still exist, but that this could happen in this day and age among well-educated young people at pretty good college, well it's all very telling about where we actually stand on this issue as a country.

How can you not assume that things are way worse in Alabama? You would have to believe they are and that's a very frightening thought.


I really hope this is a tipping point where people wake up to the fact this is still a big problem in this country. Frankly, I'm been tired for a while about all the whining about 'political correctness'. As if that is really some sort of burden, rather than recognizing that without those constant checks, things like this incident would still be happening on a much more frequent basis.

I'm old enough to remember when it did and there was no outrage at all.

my earliest origin is.....duh duh duh....Africa! As I suspect is everyone else's here.If the anthropologists are correct, that's the origin point for everyone everywhere. All of the visible differences then must be the result of random mutations.

Eeeeek! We're all mutants!

Are the people outraged because they know we still shouldn't be having these conversations, or are they outraged because being outraged is en vogue?

I do believe MLK would heave a weary Picard facepalm if he saw what we're doing to each other, whether the skin color of the two sides matches or not. But, perhaps the journey is not yet over...Well, things DO seem to be changing up in Ferguson -- not directly connected with this event but definitely related since both are symptoms of an underlying syndrome that has been smouldering for more than two centuries...

We can only pray that improvement is the result -- and work like the devil to try to make that outcome certain.

Well now. I just channel surfed into John Stewert talking poking fun at this. Ouch.

I wonder what could possibly cause black people to not like cops or white people? Let's think here.

Don't think about it too long, or you might realize how easily those tables can be turned. So, in your mind racism is justified if you can point to what you consider justification?