View Full Version : University of Oklahoma SAE Fraternity Closed After Racist Video
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The punishment is completely fair. These guys likely have the type of networks that they'll have opportunities that many people of color never have in life. The main guy attended an elite Dallas private school and has likely been privileged his entire life.
And, yes, there is no doubt this kid is racist. I guess you have a stereotype of racists as actually wearing Klan garb and carrying out lynchings. You have to be racist to do, much less lead, that chant in public. That chant would never come out of my mouth or so many people I know. There's no way around that. Does that mean he could grow? It's possible. But there'so no question this kid is racist. That doesn't mean every aspect of who he is is bad. We're all complex. Everyone stereotypes groups. The racism of many people is indirect. If you define racism as holding negative stereotypes then almost everyone is racist or bigoted in some way. It takes humility to admit that and work against it. However, there is no reasonable definition of racism in which this kid does not fit.
Last point, these kids did not "take the fal." For others. They were THE leaders. It's not like the video was of two kids kind of mouthing the words. The dude was pumping his fists and trying to bring everyone into his chant. Did they learn the chant from someone else? Probably. But everything indicates they made a conscious decision to do sing this song on their own.
The video is 10 seconds long and basically shows one guy's back for like 8 of those seconds. We aren't really sure who the "leaders" of it are. You don't know what happened during the time before the video or after the video. The fact that only two guys can be seen doesn't mean that those two are necessarily the leaders.
I was in a fraternity and I definitely didn't come from a privileged family. "These guys likely have the type of networks blah blah blah" is completely unsupported. They might come from wealthy families, they also might not. Right now you have no idea how this is going to affect this kid's life.
At the end of the day, these guys sang a mean song. They didn't assault anybody. They didn't threaten anybody. They didn't commit any crime. They sang a mean song and somebody put it on the internet. They embarrassed the university and pissed a lot of people off.
Is this one kid a racist? I don't know, is Daniel Tosh? The song is racist. Some of the guys singing it are probably a bit racist, or at least think racist things are funny. Eventually you water down the definition of racism to the point that it doesn't mean much of anything anymore. As you said, if you define it as holding some sort of negative stereotype than everyone is racist to a certain degree. So why such an intense reaction here? Is this guy any different from every other person in the world? Except he's on video? You said that song would never come out of your mouth. Me neither, for one I'm not an SAE. But I've said plenty of things that are far more offensive than this, especially in college. If that chant is the worst thing this guy ever says, then he's a saint.
There's not a single person on this thread who has said the song was appropriate. There's not a single person on this thread who has said that the university shouldn't have disbanded the fraternity. But when you're expelling freshmen for making asinine comments in a semi-private place, I think you're going too far.
venture 03-10-2015, 02:22 PM The video is 10 seconds long and basically shows one guy's back for like 8 of those seconds. We aren't really sure who the "leaders" of it are. You don't know what happened during the time before the video or after the video. The fact that only two guys can be seen doesn't mean that those two are necessarily the leaders.
I was in a fraternity and I definitely didn't come from a privileged family. "These guys likely have the type of networks blah blah blah" is completely unsupported. They might come from wealthy families, they also might not. Right now you have no idea how this is going to affect this kid's life.
I guess it isn't concrete on if they are the leader of it, but their identity is out: Parker Rice identified as student expelled from OU after racist chant - OUDaily.com: News (http://www.oudaily.com/news/parker-rice-identified-as-student-expelled-from-ou-after-racist/article_424a63fc-c74c-11e4-8f34-03aacf374cdb.html)
How will it impact his life? Who knows. I'm sure there will be more than a few organizations/companies sympathetic to what he is going through and will take him in. Most probably won't even remember who he is or what he was involved in a month from now.
Jersey Boss 03-10-2015, 02:32 PM Well, if you're gonna put it like that then only 4.6% of the world sees the US flag as a sign of freedom. I'm betting at least 70% of the rest of the world sees it as an oppressor. Ideaology at its finest.
Difference being is that we are talking about our country and how citizens of our country react when their fellow countrymen fly a flag that is considered a symbol of the enslavement of their race.
catcherinthewry 03-10-2015, 02:36 PM I love threads like this one. You can really learn a lot about individual posters. Some people are really showing their "true colors", if you will, here.
And just so I will be on record, the only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance of any kind. What these kids did was wrong and, as Boren said, created a hostile environment which should not be allowed at OU. Anyone who is expelled over this matter has the right to continue his education, just not at OU. Actions have consequences. These kids have just learned that lesson the hard way.
lwroberts 03-10-2015, 02:55 PM I was a fraternity member while at OU. One would think that because at that time (1957), SAE was basically a Jewish fraternity, that through the years, they would the most informed regarding prejudice. My, my, how things must have changed. :dontgetit
RadicalModerate 03-10-2015, 03:09 PM I love threads like this one. You can really learn a lot about individual posters. Some people are really showing their "true colors", if you will, here.
And just so I will be on record, the only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance of any kind. What these kids did was wrong and, as Boren said, created a hostile environment which should not be allowed at OU. Anyone who is expelled over this matter has the right to continue his education, just not at OU. Actions have consequences. These kids have just learned that lesson the hard way.
If one of the lads, behind this so-called cultural abomination/anonomoly had toasted and fired up, for example, a Gran Habano 2002 Corojo Vintage (on the Frat Party Bus currently under discussion) I wonder what else might have gone wrong . . . for sure it would be a learning experience. Note to Self: Always CAO . . . Never SAE. =)
RadicalModerate 03-10-2015, 03:13 PM Difference being is that we are talking about our country and how citizens of our country react when their fellow countrymen fly a flag that is considered a symbol of the enslavement of their race.
It seems to me as if the real problem with this country is that it tends in the direction of reaction rather than res
ponse.
adaniel 03-10-2015, 03:14 PM I hope everyone has a chance to watch the Eric Striker interview on CNN. You can mock the "internet mob" for getting up in arms, but Striker (and a lot of athletes) are genuinely offended. And I don't blame them. Its insulting for mostly black athletes to bust their ass on the field or court, go to 747 and other Norman hangouts where these frat members are backslapping them and being all chummy, only to learn that in private that those same people giving them "attaboys" think they're just N's worthy of their scorn. Because lets not act like this is something isolated. I get the sense most people on campus realize this, whether posters here want to acknowledge it here or not.
I've never been "RAARRR fraternities!" but greek life and it's exclusionary structure can breed racist, sexist, homophobic and/or misogynistic attitudes with relative ease. A greek member at OU admitted as such in this article. (http://www.oudaily.com/opinion/take-off-the-blinders-greek-students/article_4219a314-c6a9-11e4-9586-e377a4655b76.html). I mean go on BroBible or Total Frat Move and just read the comments. You'll need to take a shower afterwards.
And do not think the damage to OU will go away after the news cycle. The lead story on the news down here in Dallas last night was this fiasco. They went to the home of Jean Delance (the FB player who decommitted) and his mom pretty much confirmed that the video had a major part in him backing away from OU. I also know a person who's very in the know regarding DFW HS sports and tells me D1 coaches are salivating at this as they now have an automatic couterpoint against us (You know, they had that little incident up at OU...you sure you want to go there instead of our school?) . With that, why would any black athlete or student for that matter come to OU right now?
So no, I don't believe the punishment is too harsh. Maybe in another era where the video wouldn't have traveled with such lightning speed and inflicted so much damage to OU the decision may have been lighter. But we don't live in that era anymore, so it is what it is.
RadicalModerate 03-10-2015, 03:21 PM Pretty sure some of the words sung by the students can be described as threatening in nature.
Nope. They can't. Please extrapolate on your unfounded observation.
(I abhor what you say, yet it will defend to my death your right to say it, even if I am wrong.)
kevinpate 03-10-2015, 03:21 PM Yes, this will impact some sports recruiting. Also potential impacts on staff recruiting, national merit scholar recruiting, grants, general student population admissions, donations.
This is bigger than simply one truly stupid song by a handful of blazer wearing frat lads and their dates on one bus on one dinner trip and some hurt/shocked/outraged feelings. This impacts funding and reputation.
And that, dear lasses and laddies, is likely why closing down a frat indefinitely has been determined to not be nearly enough of a response.
RadicalModerate 03-10-2015, 03:24 PM To adaniel: How much does it cost you to keep that fossilized cultural hate furnace burning. My guess would be close to a lot. A suggestion from Born in '52: Get over it fer cryin' out loud and move on. (Dumbass Loudmouthed A(((hole FratBoys on a Bus? Dang.) Seriously: WTF is it about this that generated 250 posts? Pseudo-Liberal Guilt? 'r Whut?
Edited to correct the spelling of Pseudo. No connection, whatsoever, with SAE . . . nor even Sigma Alpha Delta.
foodiefan 03-10-2015, 03:33 PM I was not confusing the two at all. Sig Ep and SAE are two major national fraternities which have eliminated pledging. Sig Ep has their "Balanced Man" program, which has actually had decent results... and I think they are now required to fully initiate new members within a very short time frame. SAE has recently done this as well. This has been done because both groups had historically been tagged with large judgments and settlements due to hazing incidents.
??? not sure I understand your comment. . okatty asked for clarification, which I provided . . .
betts 03-10-2015, 03:40 PM Maybe I'm a pseudo-liberal, but I happen to agree with adaniel. I cannot imagine how awful it must be to continually have to deal with discrimination that you know intellectually and emotionally is totally unfounded for a lifetime. I think it explains and excuses any anger demonstrated.
BBatesokc 03-10-2015, 03:43 PM Personally, I think the only thing expelling those two kids accomplished was to ensure that "No Cell Phones Allowed" signs will now be posted at all Fraternity private events.
RadicalModerate 03-10-2015, 03:49 PM Maybe I'm a pseudo-liberal, but I happen to agree with adaniel. I cannot imagine how awful it must be to continually have to deal with discrimination that you know intellectually and emotionally is totally unfounded for a lifetime. I think it explains and excuses any anger demonstrated.
Good for you. Obviously the entire scenario pissed you off, too.
How about: "Off with their heads" . . ?
As in Alice in Wonderland.
HpZzfix__Es
jerrywall 03-10-2015, 03:57 PM Nope. They can't. Please extrapolate on your unfounded observation.
(I abhor what you say, yet it will defend to my death your right to say it, even if I am wrong.)
White men singing about lynching would seem pretty threatening to me if I was black.
ljbab728 03-10-2015, 04:08 PM Pete - since you were a DU, here's a story I posted yesterday on Facebook that you may know something about:
The evil racist chant video from SAE fraternity members gives me the opportunity to tell a story. Back when I went to OU, one of my good friends in the 1967 OU President's Leadership Class was Tony Gilkey. He became the first Black member of a predominately white fraternity at OU. Tony invited me to visit his fraternity, Delta Upsilon, and they asked me to join (my sophomore year). This was the only fraternity I really considered joining since they also had Jewish members and Native American members. When I was a freshman, I always asked other fraternities that I visited if they had any Black or Jewish members at their chapter & I often received a chilly negative response.
During the summer before my freshman year, one fraternity took me to see James Brown performing at the Municipal Auditorium. I later discovered they were all white, all Christian & intended to stay that way, so I had no interest in pledging that fraternity -- or any other since no fraternity back then (that was rushing me) was interested in making changes to the status quo.
I was OU in a fraternity during that same time period. My fraternity did not have any black members but certainly had Jewish members.
RadicalModerate 03-10-2015, 04:15 PM Oh! Betts: Just in case your emotional energy supply isn't depleted . . .
Web007rzSOI
(for the sake of clarification (imho): the fratboys on the bus should be horsewhipped and then given them a one-way ticket to Singapore without passports.)
RadicalModerate 03-10-2015, 04:20 PM White men singing about lynching would seem pretty threatening to me if I was black.
Maybe it is simply the TotalDumbA$$ BS of Youth in flower? Nah. That can't be right. Or left.
jerrywall 03-10-2015, 04:24 PM Maybe it is simply the TotalDumbA$$ BS of Youth in flower? Nah. That can't be right. Or left.
Trouble with that is it could excuse about anything, including a bunch of frat guys deciding to dress in full Klan regalia for Halloween as a theme costume....
RadicalModerate 03-10-2015, 04:24 PM White men singing about lynching would seem pretty threatening to me if I was black.
I agree. Except for the use of the phrase "White men". White punks is closer to the truth. Isn't it?
Jim Kyle 03-10-2015, 04:29 PM Even hate speech is protected speech.I couldn't agree with you more about that; however all speech has consequences, and if there's a pre-existing student policy that all students were required to accept as a condition for enrollment, with expulsion from the student body as a potential consequence of its violation, and if this speech violated that policy, seems to this layman as if the University should have a prima facie defense.
Of course, there's no predicting at all as to what a jury will decide (except perhaps in Chicago or Los Angeles). In some areas, not everyone stays bought.
(Note well my journalistic training; by never being specific, I've not libelled anyone with this message.)
RadicalModerate 03-10-2015, 04:31 PM Trouble with that is it could excuse about anything, including a bunch of frat guys deciding to dress in full Klan regalia for Halloween as a theme costume....
Yup. Can't argue with that.
(edited to add: at least not in an effective manner)
(this is close to "The Best Chess/Backgammon Game" ever.
I wish I'd paid more attention to the nuances of Bridge . . .
Regarding the integration of fraternities, when I was at OU from '78 to '82 there was almost zero integration.
There were then and I believe still are now exclusively black fraternities and exclusively Jewish fraternities. And I mean under the auspices of the Inter Fraternity Council, not just random Greek-letter organizations on campus.
I know at that time only one non-black fraternity had a black guy as a member, and that was Lambda Chi Alpha. But that was a huge deal and I don't think he stayed in the house very long. That was the only example in my 4 years there.
Certainly, there were Jewish guys in most houses back then.
But it's pretty ridiculous that even in the 80's that fraternities were still completely segregated. That's a red flag right there.
Also, when I was president my senior year, there was a huge issue about gay members. At that time, it was just naively assumed that everyone in the house was straight but I believe a couple of guys started to be pretty open about being gay and then all hell broke loose. Lots of other guys came out in support and there was a massive conflict that I had to help arbitrate.
Let's just say that I was not proud of how most the people acted in that situation and that there is danger in having a large group of college guys living under one roof and collectively deciding what type of lifestyle is appropriate. The fact they are already living in one house and part of a closely-knit brotherhood allows for tyranny that would never happen in the dorms or anywhere else.
And as much as I loved my experience and would be deeply saddened if they closed all fraternities at OU (well, at least mine) I think that a group-of-straight-white-guys-under-one-college-roof syndrome often yields really bad decisions and can facilitate a larger group action that is far more dangerous than a few guys sitting around a dorm or apartment would ever be.
And frankly, I see those dynamics clearly at play in this SAE situation.
venture 03-10-2015, 04:37 PM Trouble with that is it could excuse about anything, including a bunch of frat guys deciding to dress in full Klan regalia for Halloween as a theme costume....
Agreed. It would almost seem this is the underlying issue that allows these type of feelings/actions to permeate and continuing to exist. If we continue to keep saying "oh they are just being kids", "oh they are just immature", "oh they are just being stupid"...especially about adults who really should know better or have a good grasp of the concept, when will it every stop?
This is just one example where a parent, community, or network of people have followed the "oh they are just" line of thought have failed in properly bringing up the individuals involved. Racism is really something that should be very well extinguished by now, but it'll continue to go on as long as we keep fostering the beliefs by remaining ignorant to them. It isn't just racism though and it isn't just members of a fraternity. We see it every day in our local community, politics, and the global stage. People continue to do harm to others because they are different - race, age, sex, orientation, religion, etc.
I'm not sure what can be done to stop it. There will always be someone out there trying to undo every goodwill movement towards a unified society. Divide and conquer is alive and well. Anything short of a global extinction crisis (maybe exaggerating a bit - I hope) seem to have dim prospects of working.
Jim Kyle 03-10-2015, 04:37 PM Expulsion is not the right answer in my opinion - yes, even if the tables were turned and it was some other race making the same comments regarding whites.While Channel 9 was waiting for Boren to arrive at the podium, Karl was interviewing a member of the faculty who apparently specialized in such matters, and the subject of expulsion came up. The faculty member was adamant that was NOT a good option; he pointed out that removing a student from the educational environment was NOT a way to educate him toward more acceptable behavior.
Seems to me he had a point. We're now in a position similar to the "security theater" so prevalent for the past 13+ years -- actions are being taken for their publicity potential, with no regard for their possible help, of lack of same, toward solving the obvious problem. I have no doubt at all that the two ex-students will be perceived as martyrs by some extremists...
RadicalModerate 03-10-2015, 04:38 PM Legalisms:
Free Speech (1st Amendment) . . .
(no photography)
Guilty/Whatever.
RadicalModerate 03-10-2015, 04:41 PM While Channel 9 was waiting for Boren to arrive at the podium, Karl was interviewing a member of the faculty who apparently specialized in such matters, and the subject of expulsion came up. The faculty member was adamant that was NOT a good option; he pointed out that removing a student from the educational environment was NOT a way to educate him toward more acceptable behavior.
Seems to me he had a point. We're now in a position similar to the "security theater" so prevalent for the past 13+ years -- actions are being taken for their publicity potential, with no regard for their possible help, of lack of same, toward solving the obvious problem. I have no doubt at all that the two ex-students will be perceived as martyrs by some extremists...
So . . . You, too, have a problem with Mr. Boren? =)
Just kidding. Mr. Kyle.
Jim Kyle 03-10-2015, 04:53 PM at that time (1957), SAE was basically a Jewish fraternityI thought so, too, but a quick check via Google for the organization's history shows that it was organized several years before "The Late Unpleasantness" (aka in the South as The War of Northern Aggression but I prefer to call it The War Between the States" since it was anything BUT civil), in the antebellum South, and was quite proud of its Confederate history.
When I was there as a Gamma Delta Iota, from 1948 to 1952, there was an all-Jewish fraternity, and also a similar sorority, but I no longer remember the names of either. I suspect the frat's Greek letters were very close to those of SAE for both of us to have similar memories...
Sigma Alpha Mu (Sammies) was the Jewish fraternity at OU not Sigma Alpha Epsilon (SAE's).
I believe you guys are confusing them.
Jim Kyle 03-10-2015, 05:05 PM Maybe I'm a pseudo-liberal, but I happen to agree with adaniel. I cannot imagine how awful it must be to continually have to deal with discrimination that you know intellectually and emotionally is totally unfounded for a lifetime. I think it explains and excuses any anger demonstrated.I agree fully with your first two sentences, but seriously disagree with the third. My problem with it is the verb "demonstrated" -- I could agree fully, had you said "felt" or "expressed" instead.
But "demonstrated" immediately brings to my mind the images of Detroit, Watts, or Ferguson -- mobs rioting and looting under the pretense of expressing justified anger -- and I cannot agree with that in any way.
Just thought this point needs to be made, after seeing a video clip yesterday in which a young black (presumably a student) made threatening gestures with what appeared to be a .45 automatic, yelling "Bang!" The anger can run out of anyone's control, all too easily.
Jim Kyle 03-10-2015, 05:16 PM So . . . You, too, have a problem with Mr. Boren? =)
Just kidding. Mr. Kyle.Matter of fact, he's a darned good politician, from a family with a long history of being involved in state and national politics. And these days, a politician rather than an academic is what's needed at the helm of a major university. In this matter he's showing an excellent grasp of public relations and the need to do something immediately even if it's insufficient or (horrors) wrong...
Only time will tell whether he's taking the most appropriate actions, though.
Motley 03-10-2015, 05:16 PM You cannot lump the rioters and looters that are using the pretense of anger to loot and vandalize with those protesters that are legitimately and rightfully demonstrating and showing their anger and frustration at the wrongs committed against them. It is not fair to discount all the anger in demonstrators based on the acts of bad seeds any more than it is fair to say all members of the frat are racist based on the acts of those on the bus. The looters are not demonstrating anger, they are using it to their advantage in conducting illegal activities.
Jim Kyle 03-10-2015, 05:17 PM Sigma Alpha Mu (Sammies) was the Jewish fraternity at OU not Sigma Alpha Epsilon (SAE's).
I believe you guys are confusing them.I'm sure that you are correct!!! Thanks for clearing that up; my inability to come up with the correct name was bothering me.
Uncle Slayton 03-10-2015, 05:20 PM The blogosphere and what passes for news media continues in full-scream mode. The dudgeon level is logarithmically high and might require the development of an entirely new assessment scale to put the numbers in context. Everyone seems trying to be more offended than the previous indignant screamer. It's a real head-scratcher to me since (until the graffiti), not one dime's worth of property had been destroyed, nor life or limb injured or even imperiled.
I think the expulsion is probably going to result in lawsuits against the university that will ultimately be successful for the plaintiffs, long after the digital generation has moved on to become obsessed with the next Miley twerk or Kardashian fart.
Meanwhile, back in Norman, the only people who will really be cleaning up are the arthroscopic surgeons repairing ACL tears from repetitive knee-jerk syndrome.
Frat guys do stupid $hit? Of all the things within the realm of possibility, as god is my witness, I never saw that coming.
Jim Kyle 03-10-2015, 05:26 PM You cannot lump the rioters and looters that are using the pretense of anger to loot and vandalize with those protesters that are legitimately and rightfully demonstrating and showing their anger and frustration at the wrongs committed against them. It is not fair to discount all the anger in demonstrators based on the acts of bad seeds any more than it is fair to say all members of the frat are racist based on the acts of those on the bus. The looters are not demonstrating anger, they are using it to their advantage in conducting illegal activities.I agree with your statements.
The problem, as I see it, is that the press does lump them all together as "demonstrators." With repeated exposure, the word's meaning actually has changed over time. I'll defend "protesters" whether or not I agree with their cause; I won't do the same for "demonstrators." Misuse by the press for at least the past decade has made the word a synonym for "rioters and looters," in many minds, not just in mine.
Uncle Slayton 03-10-2015, 05:28 PM Matter of fact, he's a darned good politician, from a family with a long history of being involved in state and national politics. And these days, a politician rather than an academic is what's needed at the helm of a major university. In this matter he's showing an excellent grasp of public relations and the need to do something immediately even if it's insufficient or (horrors) wrong...
Only time will tell whether he's taking the most appropriate actions, though.
Thanks for the segue, Jim. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2HQZyGjueg
Motley 03-10-2015, 05:39 PM I also blame the media, especially tv media. They sensationalize these situations for personal gain and the casual observer then tends to follow along without analyzing the situation outside the media's skewed presentation. However, there are also some that use the co-mingling of the wrong-doers with the legitimately angered to discount all of them, and the voice of the aggrieved goes unheard and nothing changes.
adaniel 03-10-2015, 05:45 PM Have to say I'm not super crazy about his name being out there, although that was not OU's doing. People are crazy nowadays and have already attempted to dox his family.
Uncle Slayton 03-10-2015, 05:51 PM Have to say I'm not super crazy about his name being out there, although that was not OU's doing. People are crazy nowadays and have already attempted to dox his family.
Hell, this is a big story on the UK Daily Mail. They named the boy (a 19 year old freshman), his father (a real estate VP in Dallas), the school he graduated from (Jesuit of some sort), the tuition he paid for the private high school (16,000 a year), the number of siblings he had, where they went to college, etc.
One would have hoped we were farther from pitchforks and torches than that, but alas, no...
Have to say I'm not super crazy about his name being out there, although that was not OU's doing. People are crazy nowadays and have already attempted to dox his family.
I'm sure that happened pretty quickly.
So many issues here that were discussed in this thread:
http://www.okctalk.com/current-events-open-topic/40182-hysterical-public-shaming-via-social-media.html
That linked NY Times article interviews people who had their lives pretty much ruined over things much smaller than this.
BoulderSooner 03-10-2015, 06:13 PM Two interesting columns. First one on why the expulsion might not be legal No, it?s not constitutional for the University of Oklahoma to expel students for racist speech [UPDATED in light of the students' expulsion] - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/03/10/no-a-public-university-may-not-expel-students-for-racist-speech/)
And the second why (in the authors opinion) that is a good thing because of where that could lead
What speech is going to justify expulsion next, if the OU / SAE expulsion is accepted as proper? - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/03/10/what-speech-is-going-to-justify-expulsion-next/)
From a UCLA law school professor
catcherinthewry 03-10-2015, 06:14 PM While Channel 9 was waiting for Boren to arrive at the podium, Karl was interviewing a member of the faculty who apparently specialized in such matters, and the subject of expulsion came up. The faculty member was adamant that was NOT a good option; he pointed out that removing a student from the educational environment was NOT a way to educate him toward more acceptable behavior.
He is not being removed from THE educational environment, only this particular environment.
BBatesokc 03-10-2015, 07:10 PM Two interesting columns. First one on why the expulsion might not be legal No, it?s not constitutional for the University of Oklahoma to expel students for racist speech [UPDATED in light of the students' expulsion] - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/03/10/no-a-public-university-may-not-expel-students-for-racist-speech/)
And the second why (in the authors opinion) that is a good thing because of where that could lead
What speech is going to justify expulsion next, if the OU / SAE expulsion is accepted as proper? - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/03/10/what-speech-is-going-to-justify-expulsion-next/)
From a UCLA law school professor
Good articles. This brief article on KFOR also sums up my opinion..... Legal experts weigh in on SAE students expelled from OU | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2015/03/10/legal-experts-weigh-in-on-sae-students-expelled-from-ou/)
So, in the future, can OU send out spies to see if any students show up at the capitol to protest Muslim Day and deem their presence or any interviews they give to the news as hate speech and expel them? I really don't see much difference beyond hype.
BBatesokc 03-10-2015, 07:13 PM He is not being removed from THE educational environment, only this particular environment.
How naive.
Allowing the students to withdraw (even under an 'or else' scenario) would have removed them from "this particular environment." The expulsion and the record it created will weigh heavily against them when they attempt to enroll in any other college. Expulsion should be a last resort and should alleviate a problem. This did not achieve that.
venture 03-10-2015, 07:13 PM The who legal angle of this could be pretty interesting. It'll likely shape up as a situation of First Amendment rights versus the rights of an institution being able to enforce its code of conduct.
Let's say it does go to court and the plaintiffs win. What wide ranging impacts might that have on organizations/companies/institutions being able to hold their members accountable for their actions and what they say?
Let's say this person worked for an employer who saw them do something similar in a video and fired them. They state it was against the code of conduct their employees agree to when they join and it is with in their right to fire them. Would we be talking about the employee being able to file a wrongful termination lawsuit or would people be supporting the business owner in holding his employees accountable?
Uncle Slayton 03-10-2015, 07:16 PM Good articles. This brief article on KFOR also sums up my opinion..... Legal experts weigh in on SAE students expelled from OU | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2015/03/10/legal-experts-weigh-in-on-sae-students-expelled-from-ou/)
So, in the future, can OU send out spies to see if any students show up at the capitol to protest Muslim Day and deem their presence or any interviews they give to the news as hate speech and expel them? I really don't see much difference beyond hype.
Boren's letter was amateurishly written, clearly while he was still pissed, and it does not appear to have been vetted by any sort of lawyer worth his sheepskin. What the hell is a hostile learning environment? Was he trying to associate it with the provisions against a hostile work environment? If that's the legal tapestry he's weaving, he's going to be writing a lot of checks after obtaining NDAs from the injured parties.
God forbid this kid suicides out or is physically harmed by a bigger fool than he. He'll end up with a building named after him, paid for by university funds.
Also, this digital sword cuts both ways and there were some stories "back in the day" that, should they surface again, might recall to mind an old saying about glass houses and stone-throwing...
kevinpate 03-10-2015, 07:33 PM Suggestion of the day ....
If you find yourself looking at the crowd de jure and they are urging you on, yelling jump, jump, jump ... there might be a better play than getting crowd played.
Psssst it's spelled Klan.
I am glad I drink unsweetened tea. Doesn't get the keyboard as sticky.
There is not a lot any of these kids can say for anyone to forgive them but I felt the statement from the main kid was sincere and needed. It's obvious they made a giant mistake but they can only try and move forward from here. I may be in the minority but I hope it doesn't ruin their lives.
Uncle Slayton 03-10-2015, 07:51 PM Psssst it's spelled Klan.
Lol! Good job, but I think I see the guy's angle. If you're going to fail at borrowed indignation while simultaneously showcasing your breathtakingly shallow, facile, and tenuous grasp of American history, why not go for the trifecta and ride that pony into the barn with a grammatical error?
catcherinthewry 03-10-2015, 08:10 PM How naive.
Allowing the students to withdraw (even under an 'or else' scenario) would have removed them from "this particular environment." The expulsion and the record it created will weigh heavily against them when they attempt to enroll in any other college. Expulsion should be a last resort and should alleviate a problem. This did not achieve that.
Not being naive at all. Actions have consequences and in this case the consequence is expulsion. Will it make it harder for the kid to get into a good college? Probably, but he will eventually be able to continue his education - which was my original point.
The possibility that this prep school kid from Dallas might not get to go to the first school of his choice hopefully will help him understand what those not as privileged as him go through in order to get into college. I think a little empathy would do this kid some good. He definitely wasn't empathetic to the many black students at OU.
Martin 03-10-2015, 10:24 PM i removed several posts that had devolved into a bit of a flame war. again, it's understandable that there are different positions on this issue... but let's try to express these differences civilly. hurling insults doesn't accomplish anything. -M
JohnH_in_OKC 03-10-2015, 10:29 PM I was OU in a fraternity during that same time period. My fraternity did not have any black members but certainly had Jewish members.
Which fraternity? Did you know Tony Gilkey? What was your reaction & your fraternity's reaction to Tony being pledged by DU?
ljbab728 03-10-2015, 10:58 PM Which fraternity? Did you know Tony Gilkey? What was your reaction & your fraternity's reaction to Tony being pledged by DU?
I was a DKE and didn't know him. I don't remember being aware of that or of any reaction at all. DU was one of the houses that I visited during rush.
dankrutka 03-10-2015, 11:44 PM Good articles. This brief article on KFOR also sums up my opinion..... Legal experts weigh in on SAE students expelled from OU | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2015/03/10/legal-experts-weigh-in-on-sae-students-expelled-from-ou/)
So, in the future, can OU send out spies to see if any students show up at the capitol to protest Muslim Day and deem their presence or any interviews they give to the news as hate speech and expel them? I really don't see much difference beyond hype.
Boren was not making a legal, but political, argument with his statements. Ultimately, he realized that this video will resonate with people and cast the university as racist. So, he made a political decision in this unique case to show disgust and act as strongly as possible so as to provide a counter narrative without ambiguity. He did this while making the political calculation that these kids and their families would not actually drag out a case in court that would continue the media showing the video. In short, he calculated that the kids would rather move on with their lives. Wrong/right or moral/immoral, it was a smart political move for the university. It is also one that would likely be challenged by Muslim groups or others facing similar situations.
dankrutka 03-11-2015, 12:03 AM The video is 10 seconds long and basically shows one guy's back for like 8 of those seconds. We aren't really sure who the "leaders" of it are. You don't know what happened during the time before the video or after the video. The fact that only two guys can be seen doesn't mean that those two are necessarily the leaders.
I was in a fraternity and I definitely didn't come from a privileged family. "These guys likely have the type of networks blah blah blah" is completely unsupported. They might come from wealthy families, they also might not. Right now you have no idea how this is going to affect this kid's life.
At the end of the day, these guys sang a mean song. They didn't assault anybody. They didn't threaten anybody. They didn't commit any crime. They sang a mean song and somebody put it on the internet. They embarrassed the university and pissed a lot of people off.
Is this one kid a racist? I don't know, is Daniel Tosh? The song is racist. Some of the guys singing it are probably a bit racist, or at least think racist things are funny. Eventually you water down the definition of racism to the point that it doesn't mean much of anything anymore. As you said, if you define it as holding some sort of negative stereotype than everyone is racist to a certain degree. So why such an intense reaction here? Is this guy any different from every other person in the world? Except he's on video? You said that song would never come out of your mouth. Me neither, for one I'm not an SAE. But I've said plenty of things that are far more offensive than this, especially in college. If that chant is the worst thing this guy ever says, then he's a saint.
There's not a single person on this thread who has said the song was appropriate. There's not a single person on this thread who has said that the university shouldn't have disbanded the fraternity. But when you're expelling freshmen for making asinine comments in a semi-private place, I think you're going too far.
First, if pumping your fists, standing, singing loudly, and looking around the bus for collaborators does not indicate that that kid was a leader then I have no clue what to tell you. Whether he started the song or not, he clearly takes a leadership role in its singing.
Second, I didn't say all fraternity guys are privileged. I said these two kids were after learning about their backgrounds. You may have been guessing about their backgrounds, but I had already researched it before posting that.
Third, if you do not label someone racist for racist behavior then are only Klansmen "racists?" That definition doesn't seem helpful to me. You don't sing a song like this without acting racist. I am not judging these kids in their entirety and I hope they grow into men who promote equality and social justice in all aspects of their lives. But at this point in their lives, we do know the kids chose to act racist in a pretty extreme way - I guess you can decide whether you want to distinguish between the label "racist" and blatantly racist actions and what leads to them. And if the kid doesn't like how the label fits then he has a whole life in front of him to make changes. If I met these kids in real life I would not treat them poorly or call them names. But we have to be able to talk about the issue and if I was counseling them I might ask them to start by defining "racist..." and go from there.
And, this wasn't just a "mistake" as many others have said. These kids learnt this song without questioning it, reporting it, quitting a frat that sings racist songs, or refusing to sing it. Then time passed. Then the participants decided that they should vociferously sing it in front of a lot of people, including some who were clearly disturbed by it, filmed it, and turned it in. These kids didn't make a single mistake, but a series of decisions that led to that moment. And the consequences were harsh. I hope the experience leads to a lot of growth.
" I hope the experience leads to a lot of growth. " So far it has been viral videos that have grown the most. Internet is getting clogged up with videos of who can express disgust and anguish the best. If there had been no cameras on site, would they have protested at a frat house that was de-frocked and empty?
dankrutka 03-11-2015, 12:22 AM Interesting argument by Berry Trammell. Do exclusionary fraternities lead to more exclusionary treatment of "others?" OU frat video: Exclusion is at the root | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/5400233)
I don't think this is a cut and dry argument, but it is worth asking whether fraternities by their very exclusionary nature are likely to lead to less accepting behavior of "others."
betts 03-11-2015, 06:50 AM Interesting argument by Berry Trammell. Do exclusionary fraternities lead to more exclusionary treatment of "others?" OU frat video: Exclusion is at the root | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/5400233)
I don't think this is a cut and dry argument, but it is worth asking whether fraternities by their very exclusionary nature are likely to lead to less accepting behavior of "others."
In some individuals: yes. I know a double SAE legacy who went to one of the OKC private schools for high school, but was probably a bit socially awkward and likely didn't hang with the really popular (sounds so archaic using that word) kids. He was reportedly treated quite badly during rush at the SAE house, I was told. And he was not a minority of any sort, but likely didn't quite dress the part perfectly and make perfect chit chat. I think there is definitely a sense of "we're better than a lot of people, not just minorities" in some members of some fraternities.
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